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What did lyanna die from?


Daenerysthegreat
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This is my theory on how lyanna stark died

Lyanna wasn't abducted by rhaegar, she was abducted by tywin Lannister and his men. Aerys found out she was the mystery knight at harrenhall and had tywin and his men(Clegane) abduct her. 

She was taken to god knows where and tortured, ned found her lying in a pool of blood. She made ned promise not to tell the truth since it meant that the usurper's claim to the throne was false. He fought and killed the kingsguard there as well. He then went to starfall to meet ashara and his lover wylla and departed with jon. 

 

I know it would seem strange to some but for me this makes 1000 times more sense than r + l=j because that seems like high level tinfoil that was popularized and then adapted by a stupid show. 

Please give your opinion

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Lyanna was abducted a year after the tourney at Harrenhal by Rhaegar while accompanied by two kingsguard knights. the mystery knight motivation should not even be considered for aerys at this point. there is no real evidence that Tywin had any part of the affair even in passing. Tywin would also be unlikely to heed any commands by Aerys at this time, because this is when the two were feuding after Aerys took Tywins heir Jamie as a kingsguard- Tywin famously resigned as hand of the king after this and retired to castlely rock. Clegane was only 17 at the time, and as Tywin said, 'at that time he did not know what sort of monster he had with Clegane' yet, so him being one of the directly ordered knights isn't very likely, especially for a clandestine operation. Lyanna was found by ned in the tower of joy, on the dornish marches, far away from the westerlands, but just south of the ruins of summerhall, a place Rhaegar loved.

Lyanna died from childbirth, which remains one of the leading causes of mortality in women, especially in undeveloped nations, in the world today. Rhaegar's mother died birthing dany. Joanna Lannister died birthing Tyrion. Jon's mother died birthing him.

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4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

This is my theory on how lyanna stark died

Lyanna wasn't abducted by rhaegar, she was abducted by tywin Lannister and his men. Aerys found out she was the mystery knight at harrenhall and had tywin and his men(Clegane) abduct her. 

She was taken to god knows where and tortured, ned found her lying in a pool of blood. She made ned promise not to tell the truth since it meant that the usurper's claim to the throne was false. He fought and killed the kingsguard there as well. He then went to starfall to meet ashara and his lover wylla and departed with jon. 

 

I know it would seem strange to some but for me this makes 1000 times more sense than r + l=j because that seems like high level tinfoil that was popularized and then adapted by a stupid show. 

Please give your opinion

That will partly explain the longstanding animosity between Lannister and Stark.

I believe Lyanna was carrying Mance Rayder’s baby when she ran off. Baby Mance was baking in her oven. Rhaegar and Arthur took her in and gave her shelter. Jon Snow is the son of Mance. Lyanna had a miscarriage while carrying another baby and both died.  Ned and Howland took the time to demolish a stone tower, build graves, and travel to Starfall. Ned isn’t the brightest but those are not the acts of a man with a screaming newborn under his care. Jon was there but he was not a newborn. George Martin anticipated this and wrote Luwin to cover up Jon’s development with “bastards grow faster.” 
 

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55 minutes ago, Dr. Eldon Tyrell said:

That will partly explain the longstanding animosity between Lannister and Stark.

I believe Lyanna was carrying Mance Rayder’s baby when she ran off. Baby Mance was baking in her oven. Rhaegar and Arthur took her in and gave her shelter. Jon Snow is the son of Mance. Lyanna had a miscarriage while carrying another baby and both died.  Ned and Howland took the time to demolish a stone tower, build graves, and travel to Starfall. Ned isn’t the brightest but those are not the acts of a man with a screaming newborn under his care. Jon was there but he was not a newborn. George Martin anticipated this and wrote Luwin to cover up Jon’s development with “bastards grow faster.” 
 

how did Mance and Lyanna get together? would you explain this theory?

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

how did Mance and Lyanna get together? would you explain this theory?

There is a ridiculous theory that Mance was the Black Brother at Harrenhal and presumably had sex with Lyanna there.  The evidence for this is entirely nonexistent.

As it is for the OP.  But @Targaryeninkingslanding covered the issues with that quite nicely.

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Be wary of getting what you ask for.

Please do.  I would love to see the well deserved shredding you would give this nonsense. 

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6 hours ago, Dr. Eldon Tyrell said:

That will partly explain the longstanding animosity between Lannister and Stark.

I believe Lyanna was carrying Mance Rayder’s baby when she ran off. Baby Mance was baking in her oven. Rhaegar and Arthur took her in and gave her shelter. Jon Snow is the son of Mance. Lyanna had a miscarriage while carrying another baby and both died.  Ned and Howland took the time to demolish a stone tower, build graves, and travel to Starfall. Ned isn’t the brightest but those are not the acts of a man with a screaming newborn under his care. Jon was there but he was not a newborn. George Martin anticipated this and wrote Luwin to cover up Jon’s development with “bastards grow faster.” 
 

Mance rayder where did he even remotely appear in all this. Wasn't he raised at the wall for all of his life

I believe jon's mother is wylla since it's basically confirmed in the first book and then again in the third one. 

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15 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Lyanna was abducted a year after the tourney at Harrenhal by Rhaegar while accompanied by two kingsguard knights. the mystery knight motivation should not even be considered for aerys at this point. there is no real evidence that Tywin had any part of the affair even in passing. Tywin would also be unlikely to heed any commands by Aerys at this time, because this is when the two were feuding after Aerys took Tywins heir Jamie as a kingsguard- Tywin famously resigned as hand of the king after this and retired to castlely rock. Clegane was only 17 at the time, and as Tywin said, 'at that time he did not know what sort of monster he had with Clegane' yet, so him being one of the directly ordered knights isn't very likely, especially for a clandestine operation. Lyanna was found by ned in the tower of joy, on the dornish marches, far away from the westerlands, but just south of the ruins of summerhall, a place Rhaegar loved.

Lyanna died from childbirth, which remains one of the leading causes of mortality in women, especially in undeveloped nations, in the world today. Rhaegar's mother died birthing dany. Joanna Lannister died birthing Tyrion. Jon's mother died birthing him.

No offense but this theory doesn't make sense to me even after  3 re read

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8 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

No offense but this theory doesn't make sense to me even after  3 re read

well for one that isn't a theory I wrote there, its just a list of factors that work against your own proposed chain of events. Tywin had no reason to work with aerys to kidnap Lyanna, while all existing evidence points to Rhaegar being the kidnapper, if such a word is applicable. Also if you want to invalidate someone's claim you should explain what confuses you or doesn't work, not just state that you don't understand. i'de happily explain something to you if that is what you need.

 

and for good measure lets throw in a short summation of R+L=J:

At the tournament at Harrenhal a crannog man named Howland Reed was bullied as a frog eater and a craven (the prevalent stereotype against crannogmen). Lyanna Stark witnessed this bullying and chased away the squires harassing him. she brings him to the stark tent and they all make friends. Brandon Stark offers Reed armor so that he can participate in the tourney and get some revenge, but Holland is small and not very skilled at horseback riding, and so he is reluctant. the next day a knight with a fake deep voice participates in the tourney, the knight of the laughing tree. they unhorse the three knights of the squires and in lieu of ransom demands that they teach their squires some respect. Aerys is wary of this knight and sends some men to find out their identity, among those searching is Rhaegar Targaryen. The knight is never seen again, and as the tournament progresses, Rhaegar emerges victorious, awards the laurel crown of blue winter roses to the queen of love and beauty, Lyanna Stark, most likely in recognition of her noble action. Rhaegar figured out it was Lyanna, the skilled equestrian who would rightfully hid her face to participate (women arnt allowed to joist), and this recognition was his way of showing it.

Rhaegar is know for his love of music, including but not limited to legends like those of bael the bard who famously stole a stark bride and left in exchange a blue winter rose. Rhaegar also believed that his line would birth the prince that was promised, and believes the dragon must have three heads- concluding he must have three children. after Elia becomes barren after a difficult pregnancy with aegon, Rhaegar must look for another. whether it was consensual or not is unclear, but a year after the tourney, ten leagues from Harrenhal, Lyanna is abducted by Rheagar accompanied by Dayne and Whent. no one is reported killed and it is unlikely Lyanna is moving alone prior, so we can assume some witness reported this, notifying Brandon (see Roberts Rebellion). About a year later Lyanna is found by Ned in the tower of joy, south of Summerhall, protected by three kingsguard, sworn to protect the King (rhaegar is heir to aerys, both are dead as is aegon, so by laws of primogenitor, the next boy- Jon say, would be king- if not they should be at dragon stone protecting Viserys). They are slain and Ned finds Lyanna bloody, most like from childbirth, clutching a black rose. oh and red roses decay brown fyI. She makes ned swear a promise, this soon after it is known Robert condoned the death of Rhaegar's children, and when Ned returns to winterfell he has a boy with him and refuses to say the mother's name.

I'm sure im leaving some things out, but between your own theory and this, I choose this.

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15 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Rhaegar is know for his love of music, including but not limited to legends like those of bael the bard who famously stole a stark bride and left in exchange a blue winter rose.

We have zero idea if Rhaegar ever heard of the Bael the Bard story.  After all, Jon who grew up in Winterfell never even heard about it.  It very well may have only been a tale told north of the Wall.

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3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We have zero idea if Rhaegar ever heard of the Bael the Bard story.  After all, Jon who grew up in Winterfell never even heard about it.  It very well may have only been a tale told north of the Wall.

maybe, but the parallel remains and are almost certainly intentional. We must also consider that Winterfell rarely hosted singers during ned's tenure from Sansa and Cat's own admissions, while rhaegar as a singer/scholar must have known many and more songs than the average person. that he would know that song is not so fanciful thinking. Bael the Bard was a famous king beyond the wall after all.

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32 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

maybe, but the parallel remains and are almost certainly intentional. We must also consider that Winterfell rarely hosted singers during ned's tenure from Sansa and Cat's own admissions, while rhaegar as a singer/scholar must have known many and more songs than the average person. that he would know that song is not so fanciful thinking. Bael the Bard was a famous king beyond the wall after all.

The parallels are certainly intentional from the author, but I'm not so sure from Rhaegar.  After all, if Rhaegar was planning on running away with Lyanna why would he have given her family a heads up by homaging the Bael the Bard story?  If Winterfell was known for their blue Winter roses, then it just stands to reason that Rhaegar would have chosen that rose to crown Lyanna.

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2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 After all, if Rhaegar was planning on running away with Lyanna why would he have given her family a heads up by homaging the Bael the Bard story?  If Winterfell was known for their blue Winter roses, then it just stands to reason that Rhaegar would have chosen that rose to crown Lyanna.

that's fair. it also doesn't make sense for rhaegar to be planning to steal her at that point in time while Elia is still well. though given that he "stole" lyanna in the wildling fashion, and the fancies of singers, the notion of Bael the Bard may have only occurred to him after the fact but prior to the kidnapping itself as a form of inspiration seem plausible enough. anyways the overall conceit of the theory is more or less unaffected either way as long as the parallel in itself remains.

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On 9/26/2021 at 3:48 PM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Lyanna was abducted a year after the tourney at Harrenhal by Rhaegar while accompanied by two kingsguard knights.

Yes to all of your post except she was only abducted a few months after the Tourney.

The Tourney happened during the False Spring, as we know from Ned’s fever dream and a few other references. But TWOIAF tells us “the false spring lasted no more than two turns” and that winter came back with a vengeance by years end. Thus, the Tourney had to happen between October and December of 281.
 

Also from TWOIAF, we know Aerys burned wildfire on the walls of King’s Landing to address the cold early in 282 but Rhaegar wasn’t around to see it. He’d left King’s Landing with his companions by then. He’s a few weeks away from the Riverlands, where Lyanna disappeared so we can reasonably estimate that it was a few weeks to a month into the new year, no later than February.

This is entirely speculation, but I personally like the theory that Lyanna was asked to be a lady-in-waiting or companion to Lord Whent’s maiden daughter. The Whents are cousins of her brother’s future wife (Catelyn) who was supposed to be married a few months into 282. They also have one of the largest castles in the realm, and Lady Shella Whent could provide useful lessons that Lyanna would need as the future Lady of Storm’s End and may not have had since her mother was dead and she hadn’t spent time in the south. This is all pure speculation, of course, but makes sense as to why she was “near Harrenhal” when Rhaegar abducted her. 

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16 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

that's fair. it also doesn't make sense for rhaegar to be planning to steal her at that point in time while Elia is still well. though given that he "stole" lyanna in the wildling fashion, and the fancies of singers, the notion of Bael the Bard may have only occurred to him after the fact but prior to the kidnapping itself as a form of inspiration seem plausible enough. anyways the overall conceit of the theory is more or less unaffected either way as long as the parallel in itself remains.

It’s also unclear that anyone south of the wall knows about Bael since the only person we’ve ever heard mention it was Ygritte and Mance. 

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15 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

No offense but this theory doesn't make sense to me even after  3 re read

He gave you facts, not theory.  And with the facts that we have, it should be easy to accept at least the strong possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon's parents, even if it is not proven.

Rhaegar took Lyanna, apparently by force, near Harrenhal, a few months after the Harrenhal tournament, where he named her the Queen of Love and Beauty, over his wife who was present, causing surprise and scandal.  We have multiple characters stating that Rhaegar took Lyanna, and nobody, ever, including Rhraegar himself, saying that he did not.  Why he did it and whether Lyanna was a willing participant are legitimate questions.  That he took her, apparently by force of arms, can be considered established fact.

Lyanna was gone for over a year.  It can be reasonably inferred that she and Rhaegar engaged in sexual activity during this time.  When a non-family member takes a teenage girl by force, sexual activity almost always occurs.  That is true today; it would have been true in a place like Westeros.  And we know Rhaegar was gone for long periods of time, location unknown.  Any inquiry of who might be a resulting child would immediately lead to the possibility that it was Jon, especially considering that he is clearly of Stark descent.

Lyanna was discovered by Ned at the Tower of Joy, in Dorne, being guarded by three members of the Kingsguard.  She was dying from causes consistent with complications of childbirth.  The Kingsguard members refused Ned access, and even died in an attempt to prevent him and his companions from accessing the tower.  Given that Lyanna was in the process of dying, the only likely reasons would have been to prevent Ned from communicating with her, or to protect someone else in the building.  I can't see anyone other than the heir to the throne, or a claimant, being that valuable.  We know these facts because they are in Ned's private thoughts in his POV.  Parts of it are described as a fever dream, but the relevant parts are stated as being actual facts.

Ned came to Winterfell, apparently with Wylla, the wet nurse.  If the mother is indeed Wylla, there is no reason not to say so.  Ned's reticence harmed his marriage, and I doubt stating it was Wylla would do damage to her, as she would already be the mother of a bastard child.  Having a Lord as the father is probably better than it being nobody of consequence.  Of course, if she isn't the mother, than she was pregnant with another child during the required time and can't be named as Jon's mother.  If it was Ashara Dayne, she is dead (real or apparent) and not around to have her reputation sullied.  She was also apparently pregnant during at least part of the relevant time period, as well, so her parentage could be disproven if she's not Jon's mother.  I can think of no other good alternative suspects.

Given Robert's attitude towards Targaryen children, Ned would have good reason to keep Rhaegar's being Jon's father a secret.  At best, it would cause trouble; at worst, lots of people get killed.  Best to keep quiet.

I would like to point out, that if it were real life, I would consider the possibility of Arthur Dayne being the father, as he would have had access during the relevant time period.  It's not real life, so I don't; though if GRRM decided to go a different direction, Arthur Dayne would be my alternative choice.  That's the only other possibility I consider to even be reasonable.

TL;DR version.  Rhaegar took Lyanna by force, whether real or feigned.  He had her for over a year.  Such events almost always result in sexual activity, which, in a world like Westeros, makes pregnancy a strong possibility.  She was discovered at the Tower of Joy dying of apparent complications of childbirth by her brother, who was prevented from seeing her by three Kingsguards, who were willing to die to prevent his access.  He arrives at Winterfell with a child of indeterminate origin, but of obviously Stark descent.  Ned has no good reason to refuse to name the likely alternative suspects.   And if Rhaegar and Lyanna did in fact have a child, Jon is the only reasonable possibility.

While this is not definitive proof, this should at least give rise to the strong possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon's biological parents.  Note that I make no claim as to whether Jon was, or could have been legitimate, only that he is the product of their union. 

 

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34 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Yes to all of your post except she was only abducted a few months after the Tourney.

The Tourney happened during the False Spring, as we know from Ned’s fever dream and a few other references. But TWOIAF tells us “the false spring lasted no more than two turns” and that winter came back with a vengeance by years end. Thus, the Tourney had to happen between October and December of 281.
 

Also from TWOIAF, we know Aerys burned wildfire on the walls of King’s Landing to address the cold early in 282 but Rhaegar wasn’t around to see it. He’d left King’s Landing with his companions by then. He’s a few weeks away from the Riverlands, where Lyanna disappeared so we can reasonably estimate that it was a few weeks to a month into the new year, no later than February. 

I stand corrected. thank you for rectifying that @StarkInTheNorth!

I really should read TWOIAF at some point...

38 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

It’s also unclear that anyone south of the wall knows about Bael since the only person we’ve ever heard mention it was Ygritte and Mance. 

I think its safe to assume that he has some degree of notoriety south of the wall if not much, but as a king beyond the wall who led a host against winterfell, not for his music. I think its more the song and story in question have a lower chance of being known by the average person. but its not like this is a hill im willing to die on.

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