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What did lyanna die from?


Daenerysthegreat

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6 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

well for one that isn't a theory I wrote there, its just a list of factors that work against your own proposed chain of events. Tywin had no reason to work with aerys to kidnap Lyanna, while all existing evidence points to Rhaegar being the kidnapper, if such a word is applicable. Also if you want to invalidate someone's claim you should explain what confuses you or doesn't work, not just state that you don't understand. i'de happily explain something to you if that is what you need.

 

and for good measure lets throw in a short summation of R+L=J:

At the tournament at Harrenhal a crannog man named Howland Reed was bullied as a frog eater and a craven (the prevalent stereotype against crannogmen). Lyanna Stark witnessed this bullying and chased away the squires harassing him. she brings him to the stark tent and they all make friends. Brandon Stark offers Reed armor so that he can participate in the tourney and get some revenge, but Holland is small and not very skilled at horseback riding, and so he is reluctant. the next day a knight with a fake deep voice participates in the tourney, the knight of the laughing tree. they unhorse the three knights of the squires and in lieu of ransom demands that they teach their squires some respect. Aerys is wary of this knight and sends some men to find out their identity, among those searching is Rhaegar Targaryen. The knight is never seen again, and as the tournament progresses, Rhaegar emerges victorious, awards the laurel crown of blue winter roses to the queen of love and beauty, Lyanna Stark, most likely in recognition of her noble action. Rhaegar figured out it was Lyanna, the skilled equestrian who would rightfully hid her face to participate (women arnt allowed to joist), and this recognition was his way of showing it.

Rhaegar is know for his love of music, including but not limited to legends like those of bael the bard who famously stole a stark bride and left in exchange a blue winter rose. Rhaegar also believed that his line would birth the prince that was promised, and believes the dragon must have three heads- concluding he must have three children. after Elia becomes barren after a difficult pregnancy with aegon, Rhaegar must look for another. whether it was consensual or not is unclear, but a year after the tourney, ten leagues from Harrenhal, Lyanna is abducted by Rheagar accompanied by Dayne and Whent. no one is reported killed and it is unlikely Lyanna is moving alone prior, so we can assume some witness reported this, notifying Brandon (see Roberts Rebellion). About a year later Lyanna is found by Ned in the tower of joy, south of Summerhall, protected by three kingsguard, sworn to protect the King (rhaegar is heir to aerys, both are dead as is aegon, so by laws of primogenitor, the next boy- Jon say, would be king- if not they should be at dragon stone protecting Viserys). They are slain and Ned finds Lyanna bloody, most like from childbirth, clutching a black rose. oh and red roses decay brown fyI. She makes ned swear a promise, this soon after it is known Robert condoned the death of Rhaegar's children, and when Ned returns to winterfell he has a boy with him and refuses to say the mother's name.

I'm sure im leaving some things out, but between your own theory and this, I choose this.

But then how didn't anyone pick it up reading the books, none of the people I know thought about this

 

Plus jon's mother is wylla. It is confirmed in the first book itself. Ned says he dishonored catelyn so he must have cheated on her.

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1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

But then how didn't anyone pick it up reading the books, none of the people I know thought about this

I don't know the people you know, but on the forum this is the most popular Jon parentage theory to my knowledge. This is after all a forum dedicated to unraveling the mystery and plot of ASOIAF, and has been doing so for over a decade. Its shouldn't be strange that you see ideas here you hadn't had before yourself. I'm not sure the actual metric of active and passive users, but the sheer quantity is bound to inspire more ideas than any local group.

R+L=J Is not my theory, and like many I'm open to alternate theories, but many people find this to be a singular and convincing overall argument. That doesn't make it necessarily true, but until George more openly reveals what happened to Lyanna and who Jons parents are, or a more compelling alternate theory emerges, it will most likely continue to be accepted as the most likely canon.

You and your friends however are free and able to disagree and some on this forum may argue with you, but we also largely support those divergent ideas. That's what makes this forum so fun. I don't agree with your post's overall theory, but I enjoyed thinking about it in context. I also enjoyed sharing a theory I found more compelling. So in a way, I mean to say, thank you for posting.

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Plus jon's mother is wylla. It is confirmed in the first book itself. Ned says he dishonored catelyn so he must have cheated on her.

Maybe. Or maybe that's just the most convent lie he can tell. He is nobly taking on a dishonorable lie to spare an innocent. His wife would be dishonored by the husbands claim of a bastard, true or not.

Now, the scene you're referring too is one where he is speaking to Robert, I believe. Robert who hates Targaryens, who at least while Ned was hand tried to kill Dany and her unborn son. Robert who said nothing when Rhaegar's children were murdered.

Jon may be Lyanna's son, and if he is also Rhaegar's, Jon would never be safe. Someone would try to use him or kill him. Ned took care of him better than most men would a bastard. keep your friends close and possible heirs to the iron throne closer, ya know? Ned made dying Lyanna a promise, "protect him," most like, and ned did his best at cost to his own honor, and at insult to his wife.

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The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rosepetals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her handfrom his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

The fever, her palm dead and black, the exchanging of hands, and her fondness of flowers are a lot to look at. Then when you add in that “Ned could recall none of it” as this pov is recalling it, is just confusing. But fever may be the cause.

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On 9/27/2021 at 1:06 PM, Nevets said:

Please do.  I would love to see the well deserved shredding you would give this nonsense. 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but... best not at this stage. 

8 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Yes to all of your post except she was only abducted a few months after the Tourney.

This is not accurate, or at least, not the best of our knowledge thus far, either.

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The Tourney happened during the False Spring, as we know from Ned’s fever dream and a few other references. But TWOIAF tells us “the false spring lasted no more than two turns” and that winter came back with a vengeance by years end. Thus, the Tourney had to happen between October and December of 281.
 

No, its considerably more complicated than that. The tourney could have been as early as abut June. This has been discussed in some detail previously, sorry I'm not in a situation right now to find that discussion for you. October-Novmeber is the most likely period though. 

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Also from TWOIAF, we know Aerys burned wildfire on the walls of King’s Landing to address the cold early in 282 but Rhaegar wasn’t around to see it. He’d left King’s Landing with his companions by then. He’s a few weeks away from the Riverlands, where Lyanna disappeared so we can reasonably estimate that it was a few weeks to a month into the new year, no later than February.

No, it is not a reasonable estimate. You've ignored a very important word.

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As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands.

The word 'ultimately' here indicates that the journey was not a direct one but went to other locations first. Possibly many locations, possibly all over westeros, we don't know for sure. It is quite likely, for example, that he went to Summerhall and/or High Heart first, and maybe also other places to consult possible friends and allies.

The beginning of the war can be fairly closely estimated to about the middle or towards the end of the following year IIRC from a number of factors. Sorry, I can't recall the details now, but again there has been detailed analysis and discussion on this many times. Lyanna's abduction therefore should be probably best estimated, at least according to events that followed it as Feb-April, probably later more likely than earlier. That would also fit well with Rhaegar taking several months to travel to several locations ending ultimately close to Harrenhal where he supposedly abducted Lyanna.

Its likely that there was at least 6 months between Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction. It could be a bit less, maybe as little sas three months at a stretch, but also possible its a bit more, maybe up to a year, at a stretch.

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Plus jon's mother is wylla. It is confirmed in the first book itself.

Not accurate.
Some characters who don't have access to the facts speculate it might be Wylla (Robert, Edric Dayne). I mean, they may believe its true, so in that sense they aren;t speculating as such, but it is merely their belief, given to them by others. They weren't present.

Ned tells Robert that the woman Robert is thinking of's name is Wylla. Robert tells Ned that the woman is Jon's mother, Ned does not tell Robert this. He answers the exact question asked, and des not respond to Robert's statements. Its right there in black and white if you read it carefully.

Ned told Robert the name of the woman once before (most likely when they reconciled after Lyanna's death). 
There is no evidence that the original conversation (the once before) was significantly different to the one we saw - Robert asking a question and making some statements, Ned answering the question and ignoring the statements, and Robert coming away with a false impression (that he likely started with anyway) .
This fits much better with Ned's anger and reticence - why be like that with Robert if he'd told Robert  'a story' already? That makes no sense. 

If you think about it, its also almost certain that Robert found out about Ned having a bastard before he saw Ned again as well. Robert is a new King. Varys has been maintained as Master of Whispers. The new king's best friend and Right Hand Man leaves after a fight with the King to go do a job (Storms End) but then disappears after the job mysteriously with a few close companions. He then reappears, equally mysteriously, sans most of the companions and + a baby. And probably plus a woman (wetnurse) with the baby. Do you honestly think Varys didn't have a report on Ned's visit to Starfall on Robert's metaphorical desk before Ned met Robert again? And note that Robert's belief if very similar to the belief handed down at Starfall - that Wylla is the mother.  That is simply a logical conclusion for onlookers if Ned rode in to Starfall with Jon and Wylla and didn't tell anyone anything (except perhaps Jon was his blood and should be cared for as such). Its by far the simplest and most consistent scenario with what we actually see in the books.
 

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Ned says he dishonored catelyn so he must have cheated on her.

Not so. 
Merely bringing home Jon and raising him as his own implies publicly to all the word that he cheated on her. Thats a dishonour to her, that he has caused. He doesn't actually have to have cheated to be completely accurate when he says he dishonoured her.

Always consider carefully what is sai.
Always consider what the sources might and might not know, and why the might believe something whether it be true or false. Look for consistency between thoughts and actions, and for people to behave consistently within the same conditions. They almost always do, its just up to us to understand how.

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5 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but... best not at this stage. 

This is not accurate, or at least, not the best of our knowledge thus far, either.

No, its considerably more complicated than that. The tourney could have been as early as abut June. This has been discussed in some detail previously, sorry I'm not in a situation right now to find that discussion for you. October-Novmeber is the most likely period though. 

No, it is not a reasonable estimate. You've ignored a very important word.

The word 'ultimately' here indicates that the journey was not a direct one but went to other locations first. Possibly many locations, possibly all over westeros, we don't know for sure. It is quite likely, for example, that he went to Summerhall and/or High Heart first, and maybe also other places to consult possible friends and allies.

The beginning of the war can be fairly closely estimated to about the middle or towards the end of the following year IIRC from a number of factors. Sorry, I can't recall the details now, but again there has been detailed analysis and discussion on this many times. Lyanna's abduction therefore should be probably best estimated, at least according to events that followed it as Feb-April, probably later more likely than earlier. That would also fit well with Rhaegar taking several months to travel to several locations ending ultimately close to Harrenhal where he supposedly abducted Lyanna.

Its likely that there was at least 6 months between Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction. It could be a bit less, maybe as little sas three months at a stretch, but also possible its a bit more, maybe up to a year, at a stretch.

Not accurate.
Some characters who don't have access to the facts speculate it might be Wylla (Robert, Edric Dayne). I mean, they may believe its true, so in that sense they aren;t speculating as such, but it is merely their belief, given to them by others. They weren't present.

Ned tells Robert that the woman Robert is thinking of's name is Wylla. Robert tells Ned that the woman is Jon's mother, Ned does not tell Robert this. He answers the exact question asked, and des not respond to Robert's statements. Its right there in black and white if you read it carefully.

Ned told Robert the name of the woman once before (most likely when they reconciled after Lyanna's death). 
There is no evidence that the original conversation (the once before) was significantly different to the one we saw - Robert asking a question and making some statements, Ned answering the question and ignoring the statements, and Robert coming away with a false impression (that he likely started with anyway) .
This fits much better with Ned's anger and reticence - why be like that with Robert if he'd told Robert  'a story' already? That makes no sense. 

If you think about it, its also almost certain that Robert found out about Ned having a bastard before he saw Ned again as well. Robert is a new King. Varys has been maintained as Master of Whispers. The new king's best friend and Right Hand Man leaves after a fight with the King to go do a job (Storms End) but then disappears after the job mysteriously with a few close companions. He then reappears, equally mysteriously, sans most of the companions and + a baby. And probably plus a woman (wetnurse) with the baby. Do you honestly think Varys didn't have a report on Ned's visit to Starfall on Robert's metaphorical desk before Ned met Robert again? And note that Robert's belief if very similar to the belief handed down at Starfall - that Wylla is the mother.  That is simply a logical conclusion for onlookers if Ned rode in to Starfall with Jon and Wylla and didn't tell anyone anything (except perhaps Jon was his blood and should be cared for as such). Its by far the simplest and most consistent scenario with what we actually see in the books.
 

Not so. 
Merely bringing home Jon and raising him as his own implies publicly to all the word that he cheated on her. Thats a dishonour to her, that he has caused. He doesn't actually have to have cheated to be completely accurate when he says he dishonoured her.

Always consider carefully what is sai.
Always consider what the sources might and might not know, and why the might believe something whether it be true or false. Look for consistency between thoughts and actions, and for people to behave consistently within the same conditions. They almost always do, its just up to us to understand how.

I think bringing your sister's son home where anyone can see him is nit considered protecting. 

Edric dayne didn't speculate, wylla is still at starfall she must have told him Jon is her son. 

Cheating is usually considered dishonouring if you ask me. No where does Ned think of lyanna along with jon.

I think people are seeing smoke when there is no fire. There is simply no evidence of lyanna being jon's mother. It's only there because some guy made a hundred threads over it. And some stupid show used it

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The attempts to disprove r+l=j do have a morbid fascination for me. It's like building on quicksand almost. There are a lot of vague and unknown details from that time period to lend the argument substance, but it always slowly sinks. I'd be all for the subversion of expectations with the almost cliche hidden prince storyline but, I don't think Martin could convincingly backpedal that now if he wanted to. I certainly haven't seen an argument anywhere, certainly not in this thread, that would convincingly demonstrate Jon's parents being someone else. 

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57 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Edric dayne didn't speculate, wylla is still at starfall she must have told him Jon is her son. 

If you can't understand that Edric, a boy born at least 3 years after the events he mentions, doesn't necessarily 'know' the actual truth, no matter how much he believes what he has been told, then you are beyond help anyway.
I clearly explained that even characters who think they 'know' something are considered as 'speculating', in this context., when they don't have direct access to the facts. Edric Dayne doesn't. Robert doesn't. Cat doesn't. Cersei doesn't. Ned does. Wylla might (probably does), but Ned doesn't talk about it and we've no evidence Wylla does either. Everyone else is making the best 'guess' they can with the information they have - which is different for each of them, resulting in different 'ideas' for each (even Robert and Edric differ - Robert thinks Ned loved Wylla, Edric thinks (or is too youthfully naive to understand) that Ned loved Ashara but banged Wylla on the side).

And no, there is no 'must' that Wylla is the source of his 'knowledge'. Nor, that even is she was, it be true.
Explicitly the named source of some of his knowledge in this area is his Aunt Allyria, who is probably also too young to have been personally present, let alone know the truth. On what grounds should we attribute any of his information to Wylla? Why would she talk about it at all? the mere subject makes Ned angry and he refuses to discuss. You think Wylla  feels free to tell Ned's story? And Ned's fine with that despite his reaction to both Cat and Robert when they want to talk about it?

More likely, Wylla says nothing (and Ned said and says nothing), but people naturally gossip. Ned appeared 15 years ago with a mysterious baby and a woman (Wylla) nursing it. "Obviously" Wylla is the mother, "everyone" "knows" it. Wylla need not say a thing. Ever. 

57 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Cheating is usually considered dishonouring if you ask me.

I agree.
I merely pointed out that giving the world the impression he cheated is also dishonouring Catelyn, and thus satisfies Ned's statement without any actual cheating happening.
So your statement, that Ned must have cheated, since he admitted he dishonoured her, is a logical fallacy.

Do note also, that Cat thought to herself that she didn't mind if he'd just cheated, men have needs on campaign etc and that was acceptable to her. It was raising Jon in his family that caused the problems - dishonoured her in other words.

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Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.
He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

No where does Ned think of lyanna along with jon.

Indeed. Its not a simple as that. Nowhere does he think of Wylla, or Ashara, or anyone else along with Jon either
But Lyanna died in a 'bed of blood'. And forced promises out of Ned, which cost him plenty.
And when Ned thinks on a promise to a young woman to protect her bastard baby (Barra), he sees Jon Snow in front of him.

But never mind, I'm not going to go over all the evidence, thats been presented 1000 times. Its clear you've seen it, and remain unconvinced. So be it.

 

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7 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rosepetals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her handfrom his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

The fever, her palm dead and black,

Thats the petals, dead and black, falling from her palm. Her hands were not black.

7 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

the exchanging of hands,

There is no 'exchanging of hands'. Howland (and someone else) found him holding her dead body, more or less catatonic with grief, and gently separated Ned from the body, the first step being removing her dead hand from Ned's.

7 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

and her fondness of flowers are a lot to look at. Then when you add in that “Ned could recall none of it” as this pov is recalling it, is just confusing.

Ned doesn't recall HR separating him from her dead body or the immediate aftermath of that (ie leaving the room, the tower etc). He does recall her death, the promises he made, etc.
Its not that confusing really. He arrived in the room just before she died, she extracted some promises from him, then died, he went semi-catatonic from grief, Howland and someone else found the two of them and started sorting it out.

7 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

But fever may be the cause.

Fever is what he explicitly recalled, or at least "the fever had taken her strength".
The question really is what caused the fever.
Puerperal fever, post partum, is widely favoured. 

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16 minutes ago, corbon said:
Quote

 

Ned doesn't recall HR separating him from her dead body or the immediate aftermath of that (ie leaving the room, the tower etc). He does recall her death, the promises he made, etc.
Its not that confusing really. He arrived in the room just before she died, she extracted some promises from him, then died, he went semi-catatonic from grief, Howland and someone else found the two of them and started sorting it out.

Bran GoT
“He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.”

The  hands  from  one to another and memory loss ,It just reminds me of warg possession. When a character has an inner monologue and refers to themselves in 3rd person, I like it not one spec.

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. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE?

"I was so," Arya said. "I watched you every second!"
"Watching is not seeing, dead girl. The water dancer sees. Come, put down the sword, it is time for listening now."

How could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces.

 

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5 hours ago, corbon said:

If you can't understand that Edric, a boy born at least 3 years after the events he mentions, doesn't necessarily 'know' the actual truth, no matter how much he believes what he has been told, then you are beyond help anyway.
I clearly explained that even characters who think they 'know' something are considered as 'speculating', in this context., when they don't have direct access to the facts. Edric Dayne doesn't. Robert doesn't. Cat doesn't. Cersei doesn't. Ned does. Wylla might (probably does), but Ned doesn't talk about it and we've no evidence Wylla does either. Everyone else is making the best 'guess' they can with the information they have - which is different for each of them, resulting in different 'ideas' for each (even Robert and Edric differ - Robert thinks Ned loved Wylla, Edric thinks (or is too youthfully naive to understand) that Ned loved Ashara but banged Wylla on the side).

And no, there is no 'must' that Wylla is the source of his 'knowledge'. Nor, that even is she was, it be true.
Explicitly the named source of some of his knowledge in this area is his Aunt Allyria, who is probably also too young to have been personally present, let alone know the truth. On what grounds should we attribute any of his information to Wylla? Why would she talk about it at all? the mere subject makes Ned angry and he refuses to discuss. You think Wylla  feels free to tell Ned's story? And Ned's fine with that despite his reaction to both Cat and Robert when they want to talk about it?

More likely, Wylla says nothing (and Ned said and says nothing), but people naturally gossip. Ned appeared 15 years ago with a mysterious baby and a woman (Wylla) nursing it. "Obviously" Wylla is the mother, "everyone" "knows" it. Wylla need not say a thing. Ever. 

 

If Jon is not wylla's why would she keep shut about it. Why wouldn't she tell everyone she knows about his true parentage? Why would she care about some random northerner and unless that person is her lover and the father of her son. 

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

 

But never mind, I'm not going to go over all the evidence, thats been presented 1000 times. Its clear you've seen it, and remain unconvinced. So be it.

 

Youre absolutely correct

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10 hours ago, corbon said:

Fever is what he explicitly recalled, or at least "the fever had taken her strength".
The question really is what caused the fever.
Puerperal fever, post partum, is widely favoured. 

The Fever river? Home of the Cranogmen?   All speculation just thoughts wile we wait.

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9 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If Jon is not wylla's why would she keep shut about it. Why wouldn't she tell everyone she knows about his true parentage?

If Jon is not Wylla's then  where does Wylla fit in? Where/when/how does she become Jon's wetnurse? Why is Jon's wetnurse living at Starfall as a Dayne retainer (and you can ask that question as well if Jon is Wylla's)?

The Wetnurse-Starfall connection suggests that Jon is either Wylla's, Ashara's, or Lyanna's (with Wylla being someone found by the Daynes, Arthur, perhaps with Ashara's help, to be a wetnurse for Lyanna, probably before the child is borne (its too late and too hurried after, but smart people prepare. Wylla may in fact satisfy the other part (with Howland) of the 'they' who found Ned holding Lyanna's corpse.

If Wylla's the mum, whats the big deal for Ned? Why get angry and try to shut down conversations with Cat and Robert?  Why the secrecy and shame? Why the little tidbits from the author about young Ned being too 'upright', too honourable, never-the-boy-he-was, that even the bastard was 'that one time' from Robert? Why does Starfall (Edric and Allyria Dayne seem to think Ned loved Ashara, yet was fucking Wylla on the side?

If Ashara's the mum, why does Starfall not think she is? Why would Ned not admit it? Why does Robert think Wylla is the mum, not Ashara, that Ned was too honourable to 'slip up' with a noblewoman but not too honourable to 'slip up' just once with a commoner. 

(never mind the blue roses and promises and other clues with these two)

If Lyanna's the mum, then Wylla fits as the wetnurse arranged by Arthur/Ashara, the Dayne connection is satisfied, Wylla was probably at ToJ and thus 'arrived' at Starfall with Ned, nursing Jon. Thus the Starfallian not-in-on-things (two kids probably not even born at the time) version that Wylla is the mum, but Ned loved Ashara. Thus Roberts' take on things without Ned telling him anything - from a report on Ned's arrival at Starfall with Wylla and Jon in tow. Thus the take by others such as Cersei and Cat, who don;t know the details of Ned's arrival, that Ashara is probably the mum and Ned 'stole' Jon, causing Ashara's suicide. 

 

9 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Why would she care about some random northerner and unless that person is her lover and the father of her son. 

If she is the mother, then its not a 'random' northerner its an extremely powerful northern noble who is keeping the child close and protecting it. He's also seemingly well regarded by the Daynes and could have powerful influence n her life situation - its foolish to not consider this. Peasants are always wary when they are enmeshed in the personal lives of powerful nobles - and it doesn't get more enmeshed than bearing his child that he clearly cares a lot about.

If Lyanna is the mother, then Wylla is almost certainly a Rhaegarian loyalist. "Talking about noble secrets (and Ned's reactions show its clearly a secret) is not a good idea normally, even less so when the secret is the life of a secret baby you cared for from the previous dynasty.

 

 

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On 9/26/2021 at 9:31 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

This is my theory on how lyanna stark died

Lyanna wasn't abducted by rhaegar, she was abducted by tywin Lannister and his men. Aerys found out she was the mystery knight at harrenhall and had tywin and his men(Clegane) abduct her. 

She was taken to god knows where and tortured, ned found her lying in a pool of blood. She made ned promise not to tell the truth since it meant that the usurper's claim to the throne was false. He fought and killed the kingsguard there as well. He then went to starfall to meet ashara and his lover wylla and departed with jon. 

 

I know it would seem strange to some but for me this makes 1000 times more sense than r + l=j because that seems like high level tinfoil that was popularized and then adapted by a stupid show. 

Please give your opinion

So Tywin, who has drastically and publicly fallen out with Aerys, suddenly does his bidding in private, seemingly framing Rhaegar, but also gets the Kingsguard (2 of which are famously loyal Rhaegar) to stay with Lyanna, and then double-crosses Aerys, to help Robert.

This isn't a tinfoil hat, it is a tinfoil 4 bedroom house.

ETA: Lyanna died from complications/illness related to childbirth.

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After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her handfrom his. Ned could recall none of it.

After that he remembers nothing.
They found him. 
Holding her body. 
Howland took her from him. 
He recalls none of it.

If he recalls none of it and remembers nothing, who told him where he was and what he was doing? Or else how would he know? The only supposed survivor is Howland. But “they” found him. Was he missing?
 

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life

Ned remembers. When she gives up her hold. 
She holds Neds hand.

Its all a fever dream. Maybe about another dream. Very confusing.

The author doesn’t to give to much to early. More fun in the mystery. The story could be read so many ways and all enjoyable.

 

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18 hours ago, corbon said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but... best not at this stage. 

This is not accurate, or at least, not the best of our knowledge thus far, either.

No, its considerably more complicated than that. The tourney could have been as early as abut June. This has been discussed in some detail previously, sorry I'm not in a situation right now to find that discussion for you. October-Novmeber is the most likely period though. 

No, it is not a reasonable estimate. You've ignored a very important word.

The word 'ultimately' here indicates that the journey was not a direct one but went to other locations first. Possibly many locations, possibly all over westeros, we don't know for sure. It is quite likely, for example, that he went to Summerhall and/or High Heart first, and maybe also other places to consult possible friends and allies.

The beginning of the war can be fairly closely estimated to about the middle or towards the end of the following year IIRC from a number of factors. Sorry, I can't recall the details now, but again there has been detailed analysis and discussion on this many times. Lyanna's abduction therefore should be probably best estimated, at least according to events that followed it as Feb-April, probably later more likely than earlier. That would also fit well with Rhaegar taking several months to travel to several locations ending ultimately close to Harrenhal where he supposedly abducted Lyanna.

Its likely that there was at least 6 months between Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction. It could be a bit less, maybe as little sas three months at a stretch, but also possible its a bit more, maybe up to a year, at a stretch.

Not accurate.
Some characters who don't have access to the facts speculate it might be Wylla (Robert, Edric Dayne). I mean, they may believe its true, so in that sense they aren;t speculating as such, but it is merely their belief, given to them by others. They weren't present.

Ned tells Robert that the woman Robert is thinking of's name is Wylla. Robert tells Ned that the woman is Jon's mother, Ned does not tell Robert this. He answers the exact question asked, and des not respond to Robert's statements. Its right there in black and white if you read it carefully.

Ned told Robert the name of the woman once before (most likely when they reconciled after Lyanna's death). 
There is no evidence that the original conversation (the once before) was significantly different to the one we saw - Robert asking a question and making some statements, Ned answering the question and ignoring the statements, and Robert coming away with a false impression (that he likely started with anyway) .
This fits much better with Ned's anger and reticence - why be like that with Robert if he'd told Robert  'a story' already? That makes no sense. 

If you think about it, its also almost certain that Robert found out about Ned having a bastard before he saw Ned again as well. Robert is a new King. Varys has been maintained as Master of Whispers. The new king's best friend and Right Hand Man leaves after a fight with the King to go do a job (Storms End) but then disappears after the job mysteriously with a few close companions. He then reappears, equally mysteriously, sans most of the companions and + a baby. And probably plus a woman (wetnurse) with the baby. Do you honestly think Varys didn't have a report on Ned's visit to Starfall on Robert's metaphorical desk before Ned met Robert again? And note that Robert's belief if very similar to the belief handed down at Starfall - that Wylla is the mother.  That is simply a logical conclusion for onlookers if Ned rode in to Starfall with Jon and Wylla and didn't tell anyone anything (except perhaps Jon was his blood and should be cared for as such). Its by far the simplest and most consistent scenario with what we actually see in the books.
 

Not so. 
Merely bringing home Jon and raising him as his own implies publicly to all the word that he cheated on her. Thats a dishonour to her, that he has caused. He doesn't actually have to have cheated to be completely accurate when he says he dishonoured her.

Always consider carefully what is sai.
Always consider what the sources might and might not know, and why the might believe something whether it be true or false. Look for consistency between thoughts and actions, and for people to behave consistently within the same conditions. They almost always do, its just up to us to understand how.

Agreed, most of @corbon's theories makes sense. Wylla is just a name that appears in Eddard's head as a potential lover. 

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