What did lyanna die from?

[Daenerysthegreat]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

 

If she is the mother, then its not a 'random' northerner its an extremely powerful northern noble who is keeping the child close and protecting it. He's also seemingly well regarded by the Daynes and could have powerful influence n her life situation - its foolish to not consider this. Peasants are always wary when they are enmeshed in the personal lives of powerful nobles - and it doesn't get more enmeshed than bearing his child that he clearly cares a lot about.

 

Even if he is well regarded by the daynes she could just go to the next Lord or even go to court of the usurper. Why wait? Forget her any random servant in starfall can go and tell it. Anyone can tell it. 

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

 

If Wylla's the mum, whats the big deal for Ned? Why get angry and try to shut down conversations with Cat and Robert?  Why the secrecy and shame? Why the little tidbits from the author about young Ned being too 'upright', too honourable, never-the-boy-he-was, that even the bastard was 'that one time' from Robert? Why does Starfall (Edric and Allyria Dayne seem to think Ned loved Ashara, yet was fucking Wylla on the side?

 

The shame is because he cheated on his wife with her . Anyone in his situation wouldn't want to bring back his lowest point. Ned may be honourable and all that but he is still human. He is still capable of mistakes. 

3 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Agreed, most of @corbon's theories makes sense. Wylla is just a name that appears in Eddard's head as a potential lover. 

Wrong absolutely wrong. Edric dayne confirms the existence of wylla. 

[corbon]

4 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Agreed, most of @corbon's theories makes sense. Wylla is just a name that appears in Eddard's head as a potential lover. 

Err, thanks. But Wylla doesn't appear in Eddard's head at all. (and neither des Ashara). Its Robert who thinks that, and Edric (though weirdly, not as a lover, thats Ashara, just as Jon's mother),

IMO its extremely likely that Robert received a report on Ned's visit to Starfall, that stated Ned arrived at Starfall with a woman (Wylla) nursing Jon.  Robert, maybe even the report, and the people of Starfall generally, come to the same conclusion - Wylla is Ned's bastard's mother. Later, when Ned and Robert reconcile over Lyanna's death, Robert probably asks Ned about who this hot wetnurse is, nudge nudge wink wink, Robert just Robert-ing, and Ned just Ned-s, say "Her name is Wylla" and ignoring the nudge nudge wink wink part and changing the subject. Robert comes away even more convinced that that super-hot chick he never met (and thus can imagine as Ned's impossible to resist 'one time', hoo-ah!)  is the mother of Ned's bastard and so the conversation years later we saw on the page.
Meanwhile, Starfall peeps, knowing that Ashara wasn't Jon's mother (she was at Starfall and possibly had a different baby, maybe dead, maybe Allyria) are also sure Wylla is "obviously, d-uh" the mother. But Ashara's 'tragic' suicide and possibly past events with a Stark lordling at Harrenhal (that let to an unmarried pregnancy and her disgrace from court) give rise to the rumour that Ashara was Ned's great love (and in other places, where they don't know Ashara is not the mother, she's the 'obvious' choice for probable mother).

This explains all of the different rumours (except the Fisherman's daughter, which is badly timed and IMO a case of localising a connection to important people and events, far away that very little is known about except when they intruded locally).

As to Edric think Ashara is the lover and Wylla the mother, I put that down to a combination of Edric knowing  virtually nothing about Ned Stark at all, and thus having no idea of how unlikely this is for the overly-honourable stick-up-his-arse young Ned, and perhaps being too young to properly comprehend the dynamics of 'noble lovers' and making babies. 

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Even if he is well regarded by the daynes she could just go to the next Lord or even go to court of the usurper. Why wait?

But why would she? She's got a good position. Why upset the applecart? Why promote oneself as a whore? That makes no sense at all.

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Forget her any random servant in starfall can go and tell it. Anyone can tell it. 

Indeed. And yet, the rumour that has spread to the wider 7 Kingdoms (Cersei, Cat) is Ashara, not Wylla. Neither of them even think of Wylla, or the wetnurse as a potential mother. Its only people closer to the action so to speak, that think Jon;s mother is Wylla.
If Wylla is the mother and anyone can tell it, why haven't they? Why is it a different rumour that has spread? 

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

The shame is because he cheated on his wife with her . Anyone in his situation wouldn't want to bring back his lowest point. Ned may be honourable and all that but he is still human. He is still capable of mistakes. 

Except that that isn't what we see Ned feeling. He feels sadness about the past at times. He feels over broken promises to Lyanna, not to Cat. And to Jon, whom he wishes he could sit and talk to one last time. But on the subject of Jon's origins he feels anger, icy anger, when others bring up the subject. 
He says he dishonoured Cat, but his reactions betray something else. Shame anger is red, hot. His reaction to Robert is cool, tight, his reaction to Cat icy. He's not embarrassed by his dishonour being brought up, he's protective of the secret. 

And it isn't what we see Cat thinking either.

But apparently the shame that Ned doesn't show us, the flaw that Cat tells us is entirely acceptable to her, is enough for Ned to stress his marriage over, and to stress his relationship with his best friend and king over.  

 

[Daenerysthegreat]

2 minutes ago, corbon said:

 

He says he dishonoured Cat, but his reactions betray something else. Shame anger is red, hot. His reaction to Robert is cool, tight, his reaction to Cat icy. He's not embarrassed by his dishonour being brought up, he's protective of the secret. 

And it isn't what we see Cat thinking either.

But apparently the shame that Ned doesn't show us, the flaw that Cat tells us is entirely acceptable to her, is enough for Ned to stress his marriage over, and to stress his relationship with his best friend and king over.  

 

I think shame anger is different for every person. 

4 minutes ago, corbon said:

 

But why would she? She's got a good position. Why upset the applecart? Why promote oneself as a whore? That makes no sense at all.

Indeed. And yet, the rumour that has spread to the wider 7 Kingdoms (Cersei, Cat) is Ashara, not Wylla. Neither of them even think of Wylla, or the wetnurse as a potential mother. Its only people closer to the action so to speak, that think Jon;s mother is Wylla.
If Wylla is the mother and anyone can tell it, why haven't they? Why is it a different rumour that has spread? 

 

I was talking about your tinfoil rhaegar + lyanna

[Daenerysthegreat]

5 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories. I'm simply in a lazy mood, so I'm going to just post the page from the wiki about Jon Snow's potential mother. 

Please check out the wylla section everybody you'll see why it makes sense

[Ser Leftwich]

8 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

SNIP

I was talking about your tinfoil rhaegar + lyanna

@corbon Don't feed the troll. This is not good faith discussion.

[corbon]

31 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

@corbon Don't feed the troll. This is not good faith discussion.

Sorry. ASoIaF discussion is something to distract the mind while other things are going on.

[Daenerysthegreat]

40 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

@corbon Don't feed the troll. This is not good faith discussion.

Calling people who don't agree with you trolls shows your immaturity

[Ser Leftwich]

57 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Calling people who don't agree with you trolls shows your immaturity

Ignoring everything in the text and suggesting instead "no Tywin did it," is not a theory. It is contrary-ism.

"Everything is a red-herring, my opinion (not based on the text) is what really happened" is not a theory, it is fan fiction. Proposing fan-fiction as theory is trolling.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Please check out the wylla section everybody you'll see why it makes sense

There's more actual argument against than for in that section. The first paragraph merely details the textual references -  and not exactly accurately (for example Robert doesn't recall Ned's indiscretion - he never saw the woman supposedly involved. He merely recalls his belief that Ned had an indiscretion), but doesn't make any attempt to examine them. The second paragraph actually summarises some of the argument's against.

If there was ever clear evidence of a lack of good faith, its the claim that this will make someone see 'why it makes sense'.

[Ran]

This is turning into a thread about Jon's parentage rather than speculating on the thread topic. Lets bring it back on topic, folks.

[Daenerysthegreat]

19 minutes ago, Ran said:

This is turning into a thread about Jon's parentage rather than speculating on the thread topic. Lets bring it back on topic, folks.

Absolutely correct please give me your opinion on this

[Ran]

I’ve always supposed Lyanna died of complications from childbirth — puerperal fever or something like, personally.

[Kinola]

Mance might still have been a child at the time of the tourney at Harrenhal. 

[FictionIsntReal]

14 hours ago, Ran said:

puerperal fever

Mostly iatrogenic (caused by doctors). Midwives didn't have nearly the same rate of killing mothers. GRRM seems to vastly overestimate how often medieval mothers died in childbirth.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Mostly iatrogenic (caused by doctors).

I”m aware. Caused by doctors who were both overly invasive and prone to going from rounds and studying cadavers to delivering children. Funnily enough, maesters also study cadavers and don’t seem to recognize the danger of using contaminated equipment and hands. They’ll clean wounds, but I don’t believe there’s a reference to a maester cleaning his own hands, or equipment.

2 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Midwives didn't have nearly the same rate of killing mothers.

Maesters attending on noblewomen is definitely leading to higher mortaliaty to births in the middle ages.

2 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

GRRM seems to vastly overestimate how often medieval mothers died in childbirth.

I can’t say if that is the case.  I do think that there’s an explanation tied to the role of maesters, who do more advanced stuff than their contemporaries while having not much greater knowledge about germ theory.

[Rondo]

17 hours ago, Ran said:

This is turning into a thread about Jon's parentage rather than speculating on the thread topic. Lets bring it back on topic, folks.

The girl could have died from any illness or injury which causes uncontrolled bleeding.  

[Rondo]

4 hours ago, Kinola said:

Mance might still have been a child at the time of the tourney at Harrenhal. 

He is senior to Ned.  Old enough to be considered a man of the watch.   He was already making his rounds with the ladies.  

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Rondo said:

The girl could have died from any illness or injury which causes uncontrolled bleeding.  

She didn't die in a bed covered in blood, she died in a bed of blood.

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

Quote

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

Quote

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. 

Quote

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe," Mirri Maz Duur replied.

(Mirri is not westerosi, so her phrasing is slightly different, but the similarity is clear.)

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Lady of the leaves a riverland small folk collaborator of the brotherhood without banners? To big for my small mind to work it. She’s still suspicious.

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

GRRM seems to vastly overestimate how often medieval mothers died in childbirth.

Or perhaps giving birth to magical messiah babies leads to a higher rate of mortality for the mother.