What did lyanna die from?

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, corbon said:

Mirri is not westerosi, so her phrasing is slightly different, but the similarity is clear.)

Of course, Eddard isn’t a midwife, so his florid description might not be attributable to the same nomenclature of those experienced in child delivery.

If you want to argue that the author might be intentionally using similar phrases to gently steer the reader to a conclusion, I’ll agree to that point.

[FictionIsntReal]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Or perhaps giving birth to magical messiah babies leads to a higher rate of mortality for the mother.

There can only be so many messiahs, and GRRM's histories are full of women dying in childbirth.

[Frey family reunion]

30 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There can only be so many messiahs, and GRRM's histories are full of women dying in childbirth.

If you look at the theories here, it would be hard to close your eyes and throw a rock and not hit Azor Ahai reborn.

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you look at the theories here, it would be hard to close your eyes and throw a rock and not hit Azor Ahai reborn.

Born amidst the salts and smokes of the kitchens of Fleabottom and growing up in a humble environment our savior was secretly the bastard son of the Mad King. Upon the appearance of the red comet our savior set upon his journey to save the world. Who is our unlikley hero? The prince that was promised, Azor Ahai Reborn is Hot Pie. 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

 "Go with them, Silver Lady," Mirri Maz Duur told her.

"I will stay," Dany said. "The man took me under the stars and gave life to the child inside me. I will not leave him."

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."

 

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

The next morning she woke stiff and sore and aching, with ants crawling on her arms and legs and face. When she realized what they were, she kicked aside the stalks of dry brown grass that had served as her bed and blanket and struggled to her feet. She had bites all over her, little red bumps, itchy and inflamed. Where did all the ants come from? Dany brushed them from her arms and legs and belly. She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck. She knocked them off and crushed them under her bare feet. There were so many …

"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Rememberthat. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Born amidst the salts and smokes of the kitchens of Fleabottom and growing up in a humble environment our savior was secretly the bastard son of the Mad King. Upon the appearance of the red comet our savior set upon his journey to save the world. Who is our unlikley hero? The prince that was promised, Azor Ahai Reborn is Hot Pie. 

He was heading north! To the Night's Watch! It's all there....sitting in front of our eyes, for all to see. The secret ingredient for dragonsteel: blood or a sacrifice, dragonfire, iron....and hot pies. 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

7 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He was heading north! To the Night's Watch! It's all there....sitting in front of our eyes, for all to see. The secret ingredient for dragonsteel: blood or a sacrifice, dragonfire, iron....and hot pies. 

It has been confirmed. They had no baker at Summerhall, that's why it failed.

[Jaenara Belarys]

18 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

It has been confirmed. They had no baker at Summerhall, that's why it failed.

YES! It has been CONFIRMED! Said baker must also be from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, so even if they had a baker...

[Lord Lannister]

23 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

YES! It has been CONFIRMED! Said baker must also be from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, so even if they had a baker...

No Hot Pie, don't make an omelette from those dragon eggs! 

[Jaenara Belarys]

50 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

No Hot Pie, don't make an omelette from those dragon eggs! 

LMFAO . Hot Pie and Daenerys will marry, have many children and hatch more dragons. Their dynasty will rule for ten thousand years!

[StarksInTheNorth]

On 9/29/2021 at 6:56 PM, Ran said:

They’ll clean wounds, but I don’t believe there’s a reference to a maester cleaning his own hands, or equipment.

Interestingly and maybe off topic, but I read a post once where that boiling wine actually reduces its natural, alcohol-based cleaning properties. I’m not sure if this is on purpose or if GRRM just decided to combine “hot water is cleaner and better for wounds” with “alcohol kills bacteria etc.”

[StarksInTheNorth]

On 9/28/2021 at 1:02 AM, corbon said:

No, its considerably more complicated than that. The tourney could have been as early as abut June. This has been discussed in some detail previously, sorry I'm not in a situation right now to find that discussion for you. October-Novmeber is the most likely period though. 

No, it is not a reasonable estimate. You've ignored a very important word.

The word 'ultimately' here indicates that the journey was not a direct one but went to other locations first. Possibly many locations, possibly all over westeros, we don't know for sure. It is quite likely, for example, that he went to Summerhall and/or High Heart first, and maybe also other places to consult possible friends and allies.

The beginning of the war can be fairly closely estimated to about the middle or towards the end of the following year IIRC from a number of factors. Sorry, I can't recall the details now, but again there has been detailed analysis and discussion on this many times. Lyanna's abduction therefore should be probably best estimated, at least according to events that followed it as Feb-April, probably later more likely than earlier. That would also fit well with Rhaegar taking several months to travel to several locations ending ultimately close to Harrenhal where he supposedly abducted Lyanna.

Its likely that there was at least 6 months between Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction. It could be a bit less, maybe as little sas three months at a stretch, but also possible its a bit more, maybe up to a year, at a stretch.

Does anyone know where these discussions have happened re June and the war starting later? I've been digging for a solid week now and haven't seen anything here, reddit, or elsewhere.

[Jaenara Belarys]

10 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Does anyone know where these discussions have happened re June and the war starting later? I've been digging for a solid week now and haven't seen anything here, reddit, or elsewhere.

These things are not known to me. Sorry. 

[Mister Smikes]

On 9/28/2021 at 1:50 AM, Lord Lannister said:

The attempts to disprove r+l=j do have a morbid fascination for me. It's like building on quicksand almost.

Why would anyone have to DISPROVE anything that has never been proven in the first place?

R+L=J, or at least the standard version of it, does not even fit the timeline that we know.  Jon Snow can hardly be the baby born at the time of the Tower of Joy incident in the bed of blood, since such information as we have suggests he was born a month or less after the sack.  R+L=J could still be true, of course, if the timeline is merely messed up or (alternately) if Jon is a sort of "Irish Twin" to the TOJ baby.

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I'd be all for the subversion of expectations with the almost cliche hidden prince storyline but, I don't think Martin could convincingly backpedal that now if he wanted to.

Since GRRM has never said anything to confirm R+L=J, he would not have to do any backpedaling at all.  That you and others have spent years invested in a particular online community that has heavily invested itself in a certain creed has no bearing on GRRM nor indeed the average book reader.

[Mister Smikes]

7 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Does anyone know where these discussions have happened re June and the war starting later? I've been digging for a solid week now and haven't seen anything here, reddit, or elsewhere.

What exactly are you looking for?  What is the question?  No-online discussion will change the fact that our book-data is limited on certain questions.

[Egged]

Maybe she slit her wrists.

I wondered before, if we don’t assume that Lyanna had been recently pregnant, maybe she fought in the war, her identity hidden, on the Targaryen side. Maybe she was at the Trident and was injured in the battle, choosing to return to the tower when she saw Rhaegar die. Something like the following:

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Wylla of Wyl was a warrior-maid of House Wyl who fought besides Yoren Yronwood against King Durran the Young at the Battle by the Bloody Pool and turned back.

The parallel would be Yoren/Rhaegar, Wylla/Lyanna (all four Wyllas seem to parallel Lyanna), Durran/Robert, Blood Pool/Ruby Fjord.

As for why she would have fought on their side, it would have been because of her knowledge of her father’s conspiracy against the Targaryens, after she fell in love with Rhaegar, who was probably using her to have snitch on them. When she lay dying and Ned was at her side, she regretted it all.

[StarksInTheNorth]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

What exactly are you looking for?  What is the question?  No-online discussion will change the fact that our book-data is limited on certain questions.

The claims cited in the piece I quoted. I've been trying to find where people were arguing that the Tourney of Harrenhal could have happened as early as June but searching through the forums etc. has given up blank. I'm working on a Robert's Rebellion timeline rn and want to read what people were saying.

[Mister Smikes]

11 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

The claims cited in the piece I quoted. I've been trying to find where people were arguing that the Tourney of Harrenhal could have happened as early as June but searching through the forums etc. has given up blank. I'm working on a Robert's Rebellion timeline rn and want to read what people were saying.

We only have the books.  I would think what people say adds nothing to it.

We know from the main books that the Tourney took place in the Year of the False Spring.  We can guess, from Ned's memories of pollen and green grass, that it took place during the "false spring" itself.   The World Book identifies 281 as the Year of the False Spring.

The World Book says that the "false spring" lasted "less than two turns"; and ended when winter returned with a vengeance at the end of the year, (as manifested in part by a snowstorm that began in KL in the last day of the year and lasted a fortnight). 

But what is a "turn"?  Nobody knows, and it's anyone's guess.  If a "turn" is a month (that is, the turn of a moon), then the Tourney would have to occur some time between October and December.  If a "turn" is 3 months (and I have no idea why it would be)  then the Tourney would have to occur some time between June and December.  In our world, 3 months might coincide with the turn of the seasons, but in of course in Westeros that would not fit.

The books speak of the turn of moons (18 references), the turn of years (1 reference), and the turn of seasons (1 reference) (which in this world are longer than years).  I am aware of no indication of any other meaning.  Context would seem to rule out all but the first of these 3 options.

Alternatively, I can imagine an argument that "end of the year" potentially incudes anything from August onwards, and that 2 turns of the moon before that potentially puts us in June.  I don't think that fits the context though.

Hope that helps.    

[corbon]

16 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

The claims cited in the piece I quoted. I've been trying to find where people were arguing that the Tourney of Harrenhal could have happened as early as June but searching through the forums etc. has given up blank. I'm working on a Robert's Rebellion timeline rn and want to read what people were saying.

Sorry about that. I hate leaving people hanging like that. I did spend some time looking as well. It was definitely at this site, though possibly in the ADwD forum (or whichever forum it is where the heresy threads are - not necessarily in a heresy thread, but thats the only other place I've posted more than once or twice).
A lot of stuff was lost in some IT/server technical issues in early 2020 if I recall. Thats probably the reason it can't be found. I find the search engine near useless now, and my own personal content records are missing a lot of stuff (including this sorry - I searched all 12 pages but prior to Jan 2020 there is only a few scattered posts and I used to be a regular heavy contributor.

@Rhaenys Targaryen was a contributor, though I think it was another poster who started the conversation (it may not have even been its own thread, I don't recall). The Rebellion is not a well documented area though, and pre-rebellion even less so.

I'm still a bit busy to go back through the source texts and break everything down again but one of the basis is that the (years long) winter that was 'ended' by the 'false spring' clearly doesn't end 'suddenly'. Its a gradual process that people can tell the signs of as they develop long before the Maesters actually declare 'spring' (even mistakenly) and thats evidenced in the text. Things like trees greening and warm winds and stuff, that appear to be happening in some cases back in 280, the year before the tourney. Because we know that the tourney itself was announced in 280.

Then you have to wonder at the 'good fortune' that all the preparation that began while still in winter and with an uncertain timing of future spring (unlike our world), managed to luckily hit the actual tourney within the two month window before not-spring returned. The point being not that it was that lucky, but that it was in fact quite random. And that the later in 281 you get, the 'luckier' it was. 
In comparison, if the tourney was actually held in, say, june-july-august, then (as pointed out below) spring was un-declared (ie return to 'winter', but still the mild-but-no-longer-getting-milder winter of pre-spring) and then separately, a few months later, 'nasty winter' arrived with a vengeance, then we aren't looking at such a 'lucky' break in the timing of the tourney.

To take another easily available example of un-clarity, there is the phrase winter returning 'with a vengeance'. Many people assume that means the end of the false spring was hard and sharp and it may mean that. But the use of 'vengeance' here can also have a slightly different implication. "With a vengeance' means with great force and energy, and it is also an appropriate casual use if there is a much more brutal wintry development shortly after an earlier gentler return. Ie it is possible that the false spring lasted two turns (assumed to be turns of the moon, roughly months) and then the signs turned and the maesters declared it a 'false spring'. Thus winter returns, but its not that much different than spring, just the direct of change reversed. Then, possibly a few months later, a really hard brutal storm hits and now winter has really returned with a vengeance.     
Perhaps worth reporting here the exact wording

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The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

Note that it doesn't say that the vengeful return of winter was the thing that ended the false spring. And I'm aware that the false spring being ended indicates winter returned by default. 
It says the false spring lasted less than two turns. Then, separately, winter returned with a vengeance. Probably the two are directly connected. But not necessarily. 

 

Just a reminder, before some people get on a high horse, I have stated from the start here that the Oct-Nov timeline is probably still the best fit for Harrenhal. Just that the window of possibilities might be a bit wider than people assume.   
Also worth noting, this is really a side issue. Harrenhal Tourney doesn't really mark the start of the pre-rebellion period. Rhaegar's departure does, and thats pretty tightly timelined. 

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Things like trees greening and warm winds and stuff, that appear to be happening in some cases back in 280, the year before the tourney. Because we know that the tourney itself was announced in 280.

Tourneys can and do occur during winter.  There is a reference in ASOS to a Winter Tourney at King's Landing during the reign of Aegon V.  And then there are the current events in the Alayne sample chapter  --   though the white ravens have already flown, and there is snow in King's Landing, Littlefinger is planning a Tourney in the Vale of Arryn, hundreds of miles to the North.   I don't think we need expend too many brain cells puzzling about Whent's decision to schedule a tournament in late 281, despite his inability to be certain that Winter would be over by then.  

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Just a reminder, before some people get on a high horse, I have stated from the start here that the Oct-Nov timeline is probably still the best fit for Harrenhal. Just that the window of possibilities might be a bit wider than people assume. 

No problem.