Arya's mental illness

[Amris]

On 10/18/2021 at 6:30 AM, Bowen 747 said:

Arya's madness is such that the only outlet to her anger is murder.  Arya is crazy.  The evidence for her mental illness are her actions.  We all argued over this before.  I even provided a link to an interview with the author. 

1. So where is that link?

2. What does GRRM say about Arya's mental state in the interview you claim to have linked?

3. You claim Arya's motivation is 'anger'. How do you know it is anger and not a sense of justice, a wish for revenge, a wish to set things right or - most likely - a mixture of emotions? I mean: you just throw an incredibly simplified opinion around here. You are welcome to have an opinion but you present it as if it were a fact which it isn't since it is not backed up by text ev.

4. How is 'murder' the 'only outlet' when murder is only a tiny part of what Arya has been doing? She's decided to take on the long quest that Jaquen's coin gave her which meant traveling by ship to another continent, joining an assassin's guild as an apprentice, going through years of rigorous and disciplined training of which actually killing people is maybe 0.1% while most is cleaning, preparing food, learning about poisons, practicing stealth, training in arms, in dexterity, in noticing and evaluating tiny details, how to disguise etc and finally even to act on stage. Not to mention she seems curious to find out what is going on and finds out things about the guild like that secret guild meeting she observes.

5. 'Arya is crazy'. There it is again. You your opinion around without any evidence to back it up. Where is the text ev for this claim? That Araya is able to go through this long, disciplined period of training seems to indicate the opposite of your claim.

6. 'The evidence of her mental illness are her actions'. Which actions do you mean?

7. Which person did she kill who didn't deserve it? And what is the alternative? I mean: who else is there to bring justice to these villains that are on Arya's list? Or do you prefer to let all those people just get away with it? And that's not crazy?

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Amris said:

1. So where is that link?

2. What does GRRM say about Arya's mental state in the interview you claim to have linked?

3. You claim Arya's motivation is 'anger'. How do you know it is anger and not a sense of justice, a wish for revenge, a wish to set things right or - most likely - a mixture of emotions? I mean: you just throw an incredibly simplified opinion around here. You are welcome to have an opinion but you present it as if it were a fact which it isn't since it is not backed up by text ev.

4. How is 'murder' the 'only outlet' when murder is only a tiny part of what Arya has been doing? She's decided to take on the long quest that Jaquen's coin gave her which meant traveling by ship to another continent, joining an assassin's guild as an apprentice, going through years of rigorous and disciplined training of which actually killing people is maybe 0.1% while most is cleaning, preparing food, learning about poisons, practicing stealth, training in arms, in dexterity, in noticing and evaluating tiny details, how to disguise etc and finally even to act on stage. Not to mention she seems curious to find out what is going on and finds out things about the guild like that secret guild meeting she observes.

5. 'Arya is crazy'. There it is again. You your opinion around without any evidence to back it up. Where is the text ev for this claim? That Araya is able to go through this long, disciplined period of training seems to indicate the opposite of your claim.

6. 'The evidence of her mental illness are her actions'. Which actions do you mean?

7. Which person did she kill who didn't deserve it? And what is the alternative? I mean: who else is there to bring justice to these villains that are on Arya's list? Or do you prefer to let all those people just get away with it? And that's not crazy?

Arya and Dany are the two characters who fall victim the most to amateur psychologists.

There’s a huge societal prejudice which holds that women who commit acts of violence are mad/unnatural whereas men who do so are simply performing soldiers’ duty.  It’s one reason why female soldiers who get taken prisoner often face summary execution, or worse.

Arya is reacting as thousands react who’ve spent their formative years in a war zone.  I don’t doubt she’s suffering immensely from stress and repressed trauma, but that’s not “madness” in the popular sense.

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 9/26/2021 at 5:16 PM, Rondo said:

Arya Stark is on track to murder a lot of people who opposed her family.  She composed a list of her future knife targets.  She joins a cult of murderers in order to learn their work.  Part of the initiation into this gang involved the murder of an old, insurance vendor.  Which she carried out in cold blood.  She killed a Nightswatch bard named Dareon with her rapier.  Arya is on track to become insane, if she isn't already.  She suffers from a serious mental disorder and kills with little to no guilt.  

Arya and Lyanna are compared by Ned as having the same wolf's blood.  This temperament, being hypersensitive and having quick tempers made them biologically vulnerable to mental illness.  The trauma endured is the catalyst that drove Arya to her mental illness.  The teachings of a cult of people who worshiped the god of death and who delivers death without passion is as unhealthy an education as a person can get.  

Mr. Martin is crafting entertainment.  I have to admit, it would not interest me to read about a ten year old happy child playing with Lego blocks.  We already have that in Tommen.  Arya Stark is his extreme version of a crazed little girl who is suffering from mental illness and insanity.  Ofcourse she is not going to count the hairs on a mule's ass kind of insane.  No way.  That's comedy and not extreme enough.  I do not root for Arya Stark.  I am not a fan of Arya Stark.  But I will admit that I find her chapters a little more interesting now because of her madness.  You don't even get to watch a 10 year old this mentally ill on the television.  

I do not expect a change of character direction for Arya Stark.  She had a chance to pick a different way of living before killing the old insurance vendor.  She instead chose revenge.  Jon's last thoughts before dying was sending her a telepathic message to "stick em with the pointy end." He is telling her to murder Bowen Marsh and the leaders of the Nightswatch.  That can't be good.  She will murder a lot of people when she hears Jon's message and finds him dead.  Karma will come back and put an end to Arya but not until she has killed many.

Some of her future victims do deserve punishment.  Ramsay is without good and deserve punishment.  But there are those who were forced to play the game of power who do not deserve her wrath.  They were just on the opposite side of the playing field.  The ghost of HH saw a bloody future for Arya.  It's clear to me that there will be collateral damage and many innocents will die while Arya goes through with her murderous plan.  

How and who will stop Arya?  Somebody will.  

 

The counterpart of the waif in the real story (books) is the strongest suspect for who will kill Arya.  The FM are psychopaths but they will not tolerate another psychopath like Arya whom they cannot control.  Arya has been doing her own killings for her own purposes.  That lacks discipline.  They need to take her out. 

[Wisconsin]

@Rondo   It doesn't matter if the insurance seller was guilty or innocent.  You don't murder a person for fraud.  Dareon should have been given a chance to show his innocence.  Arya's madness deserves sympathy. Her mind has been destroyed by trauma.  I can understand her hate towards the Lannisters, Payne, Freys, and Cersei.  But she must be stopped.  She needs to be punished for her crimes. 

[KingintheNorth4]

I wouldn't say she's mentally ill. She's seen first hand the horrific effects of war and losing her entire family. She's traumatized and her list is her way of getting revenge and coping with what's she's been through.

[Amris]

13 hours ago, Wisconsin said:

@Rondo   It doesn't matter if the insurance seller was guilty or innocent.  You don't murder a person for fraud.  Dareon should have been given a chance to show his innocence.  Arya's madness deserves sympathy. Her mind has been destroyed by trauma.  I can understand her hate towards the Lannisters, Payne, Freys, and Cersei.  But she must be stopped.  She needs to be punished for her crimes. 

So Arya 'needs to be stopped' and 'punished for her crimes'?

Somehow you don't mention Ned who did the exact same thing to a Night's Watch deserter in chapter 1 of book 1 as Arya did later. Must Ned be stopped too and punished for his crime?

You also don't mention that according to the laws of Westeros which Arya as daughter of the Warden of the North grew up with and was taught at an early age deserting the Night's Watch is punishable by death.  And there was no one save Arya of Winterfell around to deal out the punishment.

Now you are of course free to morally disagree with Arya's killings. Although I might ask: who are you to judge?  Out of your comfortable armchair. I don't judge her at any rate. It doesn't matter though: the moral side has absolutely no bearing on this. Because what you claim in that post of yours is that 'her mind has been destroyed'. And there is absolutely no text ev that this is true. It is a pure opinion of yours. Nothing more.

[Lord Lannister]

3 hours ago, Amris said:

So Arya 'needs to be stopped' and 'punished for her crimes'?

Somehow you don't mention Ned who did the exact same thing to a Night's Watch deserter in chapter 1 of book 1 as Arya did later. Must Ned be stopped too and punished for his crime?

You also don't mention that according to the laws of Westeros which Arya as daughter of the Warden of the North grew up with and was taught at an early age deserting the Night's Watch is punishable by death.  And there was no one save Arya of Winterfell around to deal out the punishment.

Now you are of course free to morally disagree with Arya's killings. Although I might ask: who are you to judge?  Out of your comfortable armchair. I don't judge her at any rate. It doesn't matter though: the moral side has absolutely no bearing on this. Because what you claim in that post of yours is that 'her mind has been destroyed'. And there is absolutely no text ev that this is true. It is a pure opinion of yours. Nothing more.

Playing devil's advocate you can argue that Ned has legal jurisdiction to execute a deserter of the Night's Watch as Lord of Winterfell whereas Arya did not. 

[Rondo]

On 10/21/2021 at 5:56 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

The counterpart of the waif in the real story (books) is the strongest suspect for who will kill Arya.  The FM are psychopaths but they will not tolerate another psychopath like Arya whom they cannot control.  Arya has been doing her own killings for her own purposes.  That lacks discipline.  They need to take her out. 

A freelancing cult member is not a good member.  

[Rondo]

Arya is not the lord of Winterfell.  Dareon and Arya were not even in the north.  Arya's murder of Dareon cannot be considered legal nor justified.  The Starks have no right, no jurisdiction, in Bravos. Arya is insane and unable to make the distinction concerning jurisdiction.  

 

[Rondo]

Halloween is just around the corner.  People will be scaring their children with the ghost of Arya Stark will come for them.  Arya is not going to be remembered in any way that is positive.  She will be a scary bedtime story of the future.  The crazy wolf girl who went on a murderous spree.  

[Loose Bolt]

On 10/24/2021 at 4:28 AM, Rondo said:

Arya is not the lord of Winterfell.  Dareon and Arya were not even in the north.  Arya's murder of Dareon cannot be considered legal nor justified.  The Starks have no right, no jurisdiction, in Bravos. Arya is insane and unable to make the distinction concerning jurisdiction.  

 

When Dareon left NW he become an outlaw. Or anyone could kill him without any legal consequences. So I see his execution as legal and justified.

[Moiraine Sedai]

The killing of Dareon was illegal. The Starks are no longer wardens. They lost privileges, rights, as well as responsibilities. It was not Arya’s right to kill Dareon.  

[Darth Sidious]

On 10/21/2021 at 5:56 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

The counterpart of the waif in the real story (books) is the strongest suspect for who will kill Arya.  The FM are psychopaths but they will not tolerate another psychopath like Arya whom they cannot control.  Arya has been doing her own killings for her own purposes.  That lacks discipline.  They need to take her out. 

That would build drama in Arya's otherwise bland story.  A crazed assassin pursued by another, more skilled assassin.  Will Arya complete her list before she is killed by another assassin?  Handicap Arya with progressing mental illness.  

[Chancho]

On 9/28/2021 at 8:11 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I'd rather for Arya to die by dragon flame.  But the irony will be greater if she were to die from a faceless man. 

That is probably gonna be it, she is like the worst suited faceless men/womaan ever, full of grudges and revenge, she is gonna flee and is gonna get hunted... Jaqen will off her, her body to be find under snow, freezing with needle in hand.

[Rondo]

On 10/25/2021 at 12:33 AM, Loose Bolt said:

When Dareon left NW he become an outlaw. Or anyone could kill him without any legal consequences. So I see his execution as legal and justified.

Execution has a formality to it. It is carried out by a person in authority.  Arya is not a person of authority.  The murder took place overseas in a city which does not recognize the authority of Westeros.  The authority to carry out an execution for watch desertion comes from the monarch on the throne of Westeros.  That authority is only good in Westeros.  

[Loose Bolt]

8 hours ago, Rondo said:

Execution has a formality to it. It is carried out by a person in authority.  Arya is not a person of authority.  The murder took place overseas in a city which does not recognize the authority of Westeros.  The authority to carry out an execution for watch desertion comes from the monarch on the throne of Westeros.  That authority is only good in Westeros.  

Outlaw by definition is a person who is NOT protected by law. So killing an outlaw is not a crime.

Besides we don't know if government of Braavos cares about violent deaths of people who are nobodies. So it is possible that even government of B ignores that "crime". Or I suspect that unless somebody directly challenges interests of VIPs like Iron Bank or rich nobody will care.

Totally another thing is that in Planetos some people are more equal than others. So as a lady Arya could kill any annoying peasant. Or compared to nobles everyone without right pedigree are just talking animals without any rights.

[Moiraine Sedai]

What kind of therapy will be prescribed for someone like Arya today?  She will be locked in a max security facility. Meds will be prescribed and she will be studied.  What meds though?  Some way is needed to calm her and make her less dangerous for the orderlies. 

[HoodedCrow]

Why all the Arya abuse fantasies? Did some 10 year old girl call you names:)?

[Makk]

There is a fine line between justice and vengeance, sometimes there is little difference between the two. I don't really want to get into an argument about the definition of a mental illness, but almost all people exhibit some sort of desire for revenge. Children do. Even animals do. Seeking revenge is not unnatural.

I think a lot of people consider Arya to be insane based on her actions along with the fact that she is a ten year old child. She has suffered immense trauma but I don't feel she is insane yet. She is walking a fine line which could easily tip her over that point which is why she is such an interesting character. In terms of her actions so far, which ones would people actually consider evil?

Anything prior to her joining the faceless men? I personally feel she was almost virtuous up until that point. She has a strong natural sense of justice, she risked herself to help her friends, and she felt much more remorse for acting petty than most children her age would do. 

Killing Daereon? It is extremely harsh by our own moral standards, but what would Ned have done? We saw Ned execute a deserter in the second chapter when he had other options. It isn't quite the same because a part of his justification is that Gared would become a desperate man and a greater criminal. Arya's decision was based more Justice (not vengeance).

The insurance salesman was the greyest action so far. She spent hours watching him and had to justify to herself that killing him was just, and perhaps she did fool herself to some extent because she wanted to continue learning with the faceless men. But it was a perfectly rational decision, I actually think it proves she is not insane. I think most characters have done something more evil than killing the insurance broker. You should examine her actions and forget that she is a 10 year old girl. 

 

[Darth Sidious]

On 10/26/2021 at 5:25 PM, Chancho said:

That is probably gonna be it, she is like the worst suited faceless men/womaan ever, full of grudges and revenge, she is gonna flee and is gonna get hunted... Jaqen will off her, her body to be find under snow, freezing with needle in hand.

Arya is mentally compromised. Jaqen will have no trouble tracking her. There will be a trail of blood and corpses behind Arya for anyone to follow. She is crazy enough to do stupid things and gamble. Her emotions and hate override discipline. She is a lot like Jon Snow.