Jump to content

Arya's mental illness


Rondo
 Share

Recommended Posts

If the OP and others claim that Arya has a mental illness, they should provide the name of the specific mental illness. We could then consult DSM and see if it fits. 

Just a random thought: while I personally consider the murder of insurance man disturbing because it is done on the word of asassin death cult, can you really claim that it's unlawful? You can say that about Dareon, bc Arya has no jurisdiction to execute deserters on foreign land (in the North, her actions would be considered perfectly legal), but Faceless Men and their activities seem to be totally accepted by Braavos government, they operate in the open, have open temple, everyone knows about them, including officials. They aren't allowed to just come up to people and execute them the open, but as long as it's done under the guise, there is no reprocussions towards the organization, despite everyone being aware of their actions. Thus their killings appear to be an accepted by the government (thus lawful) and culturally approved activity.

Morals are different debate to legalities, but I thought it was interesting and somewhat ironic. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Rara Avis said:

Thus their killings appear to be an accepted by the government (thus lawful) and culturally approved activity.

Doesn't work. Lots of criminal activity is tolerated by governments (because they can't stop it basically). Doesn't make it lawful. Also, officials have good reason to fear the FM. And thirdly, those officials might also be corrupt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Rara Avis said:

If the OP and others claim that Arya has a mental illness, they should provide the name of the specific mental illness. We could then consult DSM and see if it fits. 

Just a random thought: while I personally consider the murder of insurance man disturbing because it is done on the word of asassin death cult, can you really claim that it's unlawful? You can say that about Dareon, bc Arya has no jurisdiction to execute deserters on foreign land (in the North, her actions would be considered perfectly legal), but Faceless Men and their activities seem to be totally accepted by Braavos government, they operate in the open, have open temple, everyone knows about them, including officials. They aren't allowed to just come up to people and execute them the open, but as long as it's done under the guise, there is no reprocussions towards the organization, despite everyone being aware of their actions. Thus their killings appear to be an accepted by the government (thus lawful) and culturally approved activity.

Morals are different debate to legalities, but I thought it was interesting and somewhat ironic. 

There would be no need for a secret assassination if the old man had broken the law.  Arya has no right to judge because she doesn’t know nor understand the law. She chose to become a violent tool of the FM. She is no better than Illyn Payne, who she wants to murder. She is worse. Payne at least served a legitimate governing body, the small council, and his clients were given a trial and a chance to plead their case. The old man was not given a chance. He never knew why he was assassinated. Justice didn’t happen.  Arya’s hate is driving her to commit these atrocities. Her blind pursuit of vengeance overshadows morality, ethics, and compassion. She is emotionally damaged. Her inconsistent ability to discern right from wrong shows a mentally compromised girl.

Arya doesn’t have the right to judge and sentence Dareon even if they were in Westeros. The Warden is given that authority by the king. The sentence is passed in the name of the king. Tommen didn’t give that right to Arya. She was not given the responsibility for and the right to act on behalf of the monarch.  Her affections for Jon Snow made her kill Dareon.  He was not tried. No fact finding process was done. He didn’t get a chance to explain his side. He died not knowing why this strange girl stuck him with a sword.  Arya’s anger and feelings control her decisions with deadly consequences.  Arya herself is providing the proof of her condition. 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

How can you say that Bran is not controversial? He wargs Hodor, which is one of the worst deeds imaginable, and does it for sport (after the first time, when it was a dire necessity).

He’s bitter about his predicament. It’s not an excuse to do it. He needs a moral authority figure to spank him. He likes Hodor but it is sad because his need make him abuse his big friend. He hasn’t killed and it will be upsetting if he forces Hodor to kill an innocent victim. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/24/2021 at 5:33 PM, Rondo said:

The evidence are the things Arya does.  She joins up with a cult of killers who worships the bringing of death to people and kills people as its purpose for existence.  She murders an old business man who was no threat to her.  She can't claim self-defense for poisoning him.  It's followed by murdering a bard who has done no harm to her person.  I'd say that's evidence of Arya's insanity.

She goes to Bravos because she has no other options.  Everyone she knew and trusted is dead and even Sandor, her dubious captor-protector, is dead or dying.  All she has is the coin Jaqen H'ghar left her with instructions how to use it - so she does.  How deeply she will be ensnared by the FM remains to be seen but my bet is she will determine whether the target deserves to die rather than becoming a blank biddable footsoldier determiend to carry out every mission. 

Her murders of Dareon and the insurance salesman (and they are murders) are shocking but she deems one a deserter whose life is forfeit for breaking his oath and the other an exploiter or defrauder of his clients.  It's harsh and ruthless but vigilante justice often is and that doesn't mean it's exponents are insane.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

She goes to Bravos because she has no other options.  Everyone she knew and trusted is dead and even Sandor, her dubious captor-protector, is dead or dying.  All she has is the coin Jaqen H'ghar left her with instructions how to use it - so she does.  How deeply she will be ensnared by the FM remains to be seen but my bet is she will determine whether the target deserves to die rather than becoming a blank biddable footsoldier determiend to carry out every mission. 

Her murders of Dareon and the insurance salesman (and they are murders) are shocking but she deems one a deserter whose life is forfeit for breaking his oath and the other an exploiter or defrauder of his clients.  It's harsh and ruthless but vigilante justice often is and that doesn't mean it's exponents are insane.

 

She has other options.  She could continue to sell seafood.  She could work as a servant.  There is the option to join the church and become a Septa.  And why not become a Silent Sister?  It is no more challenging compared to what she does with corpses for the faceless men.  

Her murders of Dareon and the Insurance man were acts of evil.  They have not wronged her and have not threatened her any harm.  Arya is both insane and slightly evil.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/13/2021 at 11:49 PM, Rondo said:

She has other options.  She could continue to sell seafood.  She could work as a servant.  There is the option to join the church and become a Septa.  And why not become a Silent Sister?  It is no more challenging compared to what she does with corpses for the faceless men.

She had no other credible options when she chose to use the coin to go to Braavos.  Right beforehand she sells her horse and gets well under the real value because she's a ten or so year old girl who can be taken advantage of.  That's what she is trying to avoid continuing as a pattern and Jaqen H'ghar is the closest thing to a friend she has so she follows his instructions.  I'm not sure if you're serious about her option to become a septa or a silent sister but these clearly hold no appeal for her and are lifelong commitments she would not want to be encumbered by.  Braavos represents the unknown but also hope and she has not given up, she is making the best and only choice she can see available to her.

Once in Braavos she finds the FM tread a dark path and so does she but it's a means to an end while she learns what she can from them and gains some stability and the chance to consider her next moves.  Could she sever any ties with them and work as a seller or servant?  Possibly, if the FM were prepared to let her.  Isn't the occupation and the contacts she has provided for her by the FM?  She's otherwise still an orphan and a refugee in a strange city, more human flotsam and an apparently easy target putting herself back in the same position she was in getting taken advantage of by the woman who bought her horse in the Riverlands. Not a srtong move in other words.

On 12/13/2021 at 11:49 PM, Rondo said:

Her murders of Dareon and the Insurance man were acts of evil.  They have not wronged her and have not threatened her any harm.  Arya is both insane and slightly evil.  

They are questionable acts and I consider them both murders but I don't see any evidence of insanity.  The first is the carrying out of a sentence she has no right to impose but it is nevertheless the outcome Dareon would receive under Westerosi law.  Dareon states his intention to desert and Sam argues with him publicly (and ends up in the canal because of it).  Arya follows all this and acts accordingly: vigilante justice like the BwB hanging Freys after The Red Wedding.  They aren't mad either, just ruthless and desensitised to violence as is Arya.  The second she carries out as instructed and she rationalises the act on the basis that he is defrauding his clients.  You don't have to approve of her actions or agree with her rationalisation - I wish she had refused - but she thinks carefully about why he deserves to die before she acts.  That doesn't present as insanity but as harsh vigilante justice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

She had no other credible options when she chose to use the coin to go to Braavos.  Right beforehand she sells her horse and gets well under the real value because she's a ten or so year old girl who can be taken advantage of.  That's what she is trying to avoid continuing as a pattern and Jaqen H'ghar is the closest thing to a friend she has so she follows his instructions.  I'm not sure if you're serious about her option to become a septa or a silent sister but these clearly hold no appeal for her and are lifelong commitments she would not want to be encumbered by.  Braavos represents the unknown but also hope and she has not given up, she is making the best and only choice she can see available to her.

Once in Braavos she finds the FM tread a dark path and so does she but it's a means to an end while she learns what she can from them and gains some stability and the chance to consider her next moves.  Could she sever any ties with them and work as a seller or servant?  Possibly, if the FM were prepared to let her.  Isn't the occupation and the contacts she has provided for her by the FM?  She's otherwise still an orphan and a refugee in a strange city, more human flotsam and an apparently easy target putting herself back in the same position she was in getting taken advantage of by the woman who bought her horse in the Riverlands. Not a srtong move in other words.

They are questionable acts and I consider them both murders but I don't see any evidence of insanity.  The first is the carrying out of a sentence she has no right to impose but it is nevertheless the outcome Dareon would receive under Westerosi law.  Dareon states his intention to desert and Sam argues with him publicly (and ends up in the canal because of it).  Arya follows all this and acts accordingly: vigilante justice like the BwB hanging Freys after The Red Wedding.  They aren't mad either, just ruthless and desensitised to violence as is Arya.  The second she carries out as instructed and she rationalises the act on the basis that he is defrauding his clients.  You don't have to approve of her actions or agree with her rationalisation - I wish she had refused - but she thinks carefully about why he deserves to die before she acts.  That doesn't present as insanity but as harsh vigilante justice.

I pretty much agree with all of this.  I would like to add that Arya feels a need for a pack to belong to, and has a fear of rejection and/or abandonment.  She is also determined, after Harrenhal, not to be subject to the mercy or whims of others.  The Faceless Men are taking advantage of this to manipulate her.

On 12/13/2021 at 4:49 PM, Rondo said:

She has other options.  She could continue to sell seafood.  She could work as a servant.  There is the option to join the church and become a Septa.  And why not become a Silent Sister?  It is no more challenging compared to what she does with corpses for the faceless men.  

Her murders of Dareon and the Insurance man were acts of evil.  They have not wronged her and have not threatened her any harm.  Arya is both insane and slightly evil.  

If that is your definition of evil and insane,  I'm sure quite a few characters would qualify, including many popular ones. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I pretty much agree with all of this.  I would like to add that Arya feels a need for a pack to belong to, and has a fear of rejection and/or abandonment.  She is also determined, after Harrenhal, not to be subject to the mercy or whims of others.  The Faceless Men are taking advantage of this to manipulate her.

If that is your definition of evil and insane,  I'm sure quite a few characters would qualify, including many popular ones. 

Hell, Danaerys would qualify as insane and evil by @Rondo's definition because of all the crucifictions and torture of noncombatents in the case of the shopowners daughters. And she is their favorite character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Arya's mind will get darker as her illness gets worse.  Arya will carry out the rage and anger of the Starks.  She will cut a path of death all the way to the riverlands until her final confrontation with the Freys.  She could die there and let Nym carry her soul when the wolf returns to the north or she can survive the Freys and die in the north later. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/26/2021 at 5:16 PM, Rondo said:

Arya Stark is on track to murder a lot of people who opposed her family.  She composed a list of her future knife targets.  She joins a cult of murderers in order to learn their work.  Part of the initiation into this gang involved the murder of an old, insurance vendor.  Which she carried out in cold blood.  She killed a Nightswatch bard named Dareon with her rapier.  Arya is on track to become insane, if she isn't already.  She suffers from a serious mental disorder and kills with little to no guilt.  

Arya and Lyanna are compared by Ned as having the same wolf's blood.  This temperament, being hypersensitive and having quick tempers made them biologically vulnerable to mental illness.  The trauma endured is the catalyst that drove Arya to her mental illness.  The teachings of a cult of people who worshiped the god of death and who delivers death without passion is as unhealthy an education as a person can get.  

Mr. Martin is crafting entertainment.  I have to admit, it would not interest me to read about a ten year old happy child playing with Lego blocks.  We already have that in Tommen.  Arya Stark is his extreme version of a crazed little girl who is suffering from mental illness and insanity.  Ofcourse she is not going to count the hairs on a mule's ass kind of insane.  No way.  That's comedy and not extreme enough.  I do not root for Arya Stark.  I am not a fan of Arya Stark.  But I will admit that I find her chapters a little more interesting now because of her madness.  You don't even get to watch a 10 year old this mentally ill on the television.  

I do not expect a change of character direction for Arya Stark.  She had a chance to pick a different way of living before killing the old insurance vendor.  She instead chose revenge.  Jon's last thoughts before dying was sending her a telepathic message to "stick em with the pointy end." He is telling her to murder Bowen Marsh and the leaders of the Nightswatch.  That can't be good.  She will murder a lot of people when she hears Jon's message and finds him dead.  Karma will come back and put an end to Arya but not until she has killed many.

Some of her future victims do deserve punishment.  Ramsay is without good and deserve punishment.  But there are those who were forced to play the game of power who do not deserve her wrath.  They were just on the opposite side of the playing field.  The ghost of HH saw a bloody future for Arya.  It's clear to me that there will be collateral damage and many innocents will die while Arya goes through with her murderous plan.  

How and who will stop Arya?  Somebody will.  

 

I think George Martin is willing to upset a lot of his fans to write an emotional story.  I do not like Arya Stark but a lot of you do.  He's pushing Arya deeper into madness and depravity to see how far you will be loyal to her.  G. Martin is not scared to upset the reader.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Arya is Alia of the Knife without the ability to reach her ego-memory (Bran has it as a greenseer) and with abilities of a Tleilaxu face dancer(faceless men training).

I thought of Alia too - when thinking about the inspiration of names, and the sounds and letters of names. Alia's early life is very different to Arya's though; I think they will continue different. But I do think possession and ancestral memory identities will be a large part of the new books.

Nice link with the face dancers - that's very good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

I thought of Alia too - when thinking about the inspiration of names, and the sounds and letters of names. Alia's early life is very different to Arya's though; I think they will continue different. But I do think possession and ancestral memory identities will be a large part of the new books.

Nice link with the face dancers - that's very good.

Thanks. ASOIAF has been inspired by dune on many things, especially it's organizations/instituitons. FM come from face dancers, Maesters seem to be an amalgamation of sorts of mentats and perhaps bene gesserits in their function etc. Lip painting sapho extract that mentats use? Shade of the evening. Bran eating weirwood paste to be a greenseer? Water of life that unlock the genetic memory. There are a few more that don't come to mind right now, but if you look for it, too many things come from Dune. That doesn't mean everything will happen as it was in Dune, but too much inspiration to neglect or outright say there won't be any similarities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Arya is Alia of the Knife without the ability to reach her ego-memory (Bran has it as a greenseer) and with abilities of a Tleilaxu face dancer(faceless men training).

 

Alia betrayed her brother, if I recall. Didn’t she try to kill the worms?  
 

Inspired by another is one thing but Arya’s life is revenge. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/28/2021 at 11:29 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Thanks. ASOIAF has been inspired by dune on many things, especially it's organizations/instituitons. FM come from face dancers, Maesters seem to be an amalgamation of sorts of mentats and perhaps bene gesserits in their function etc. Lip painting sapho extract that mentats use? Shade of the evening. Bran eating weirwood paste to be a greenseer? Water of life that unlock the genetic memory. There are a few more that don't come to mind right now, but if you look for it, too many things come from Dune. That doesn't mean everything will happen as it was in Dune, but too much inspiration to neglect or outright say there won't be any similarities.

Agree.  And the whole game of thrones thing, the rivalry between great houses, and the 'noble' house that's torn apart right at the beginning.

My Dune book is 'Chapter House' - so it's disappointing not to see the BG in asoiaf. Their aim of breeding a saviour is there. (And I still have hopes of seeing their enemies the Matres north of the Wall. Spider queen :))

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Agree.  And the whole game of thrones thing, the rivalry between great houses, and the 'noble' house that's torn apart right at the beginning.

My Dune book is 'Chapter House' - so it's disappointing not to see the BG in asoiaf. Their aim of breeding a saviour is there. (And I still have hopes of seeing their enemies the Matres north of the Wall. Spider queen :))

 

Though their endonym"free folk" is reminiscent of "Fremen" I think wildlings may actually correspond to those who left in the Scattering. They are outside the boundaries of the 7K, which would be the Imperium of Dune and they are returning because of a threat, just like Honored Matres did and just like the Honored Matres, they started their return violently. Now, I don't recall this, were HM and BG able to establish a peace or truce to fight against the common foe, like Jon(and Stannis, to some degree) was able to?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...