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Arya's mental illness

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On 10/10/2021 at 6:13 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

Some medieval Western hospitals, churches and monasteries did take care of the mentally ill, so in theory Arya being in a temple setting is exactly where she should be (it's just unfortunate that her particular temple is run by paid assassins.) 

Of course some of the best healthcare (including mental healthcare) during the middle ages took place in the Middle East. As such, maybe Arya should head to Slavers Bay where the doctors are probably a lot more advanced?

Arya is not the compliant type. She’s just as likely to murder her therapists in such a facility. She was always a loaded gun without a safety. Like Jon, she has an explosive personality. She’s a stick of dynamite with a short and defective fuse. The sad events in her life is the spark that pushed her to madness. She will not be treatable. Constant sedation and a secure straightjacket can keep Arya from harming others. Restraints won’t stop her from spitting. A mouth covering will be needed.  But she’s not worth all of that trouble. Arya already has a lot of innocent blood on her hands. It’s better to let her life end on the point of a sword. 

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On 10/9/2021 at 3:31 PM, Dr. Eldon Tyrell said:

Traumatized and depressed she may be. But most people like that don’t go around murdering people. Arya murdered the old  man and Dareon. She baited and murdered Rafford. She keeps a Hit List of people to kill. Arya has gone mad and homicidal. She is a lunatic who belongs in an insane asylum. 

This is such a misguided view on Arya. Arya does have a hit-list but that hit-list is comprised of people who are also murderers. Rafford killed a kid because he asked him for help standing up. She was paid to kill the old man but Daeron was also justified. He basically deserted the Night's Watch as soon as things got bad and started hanging out with prostitutes and courtesans instead of staying true to his vows. Arya knows the penalty for this in Westeros and basically carried out what a lord would have done. Also, Dany also has some sort of a hit list. She vows revenge on the Usurper and his dogs and wants to burn all of them with dragonfire. If Arya is a homicidal maniac, Dany is too.

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Arya is not the compliant type. She’s just as likely to murder her therapists in such a facility. She was always a loaded gun without a safety. Like Jon, she has an explosive personality. She’s a stick of dynamite with a short and defective fuse. The sad events in her life is the spark that pushed her to madness. She will not be treatable. Constant sedation and a secure straightjacket can keep Arya from harming others. Restraints won’t stop her from spitting. A mouth covering will be needed.  But she’s not worth all of that trouble. Arya already has a lot of innocent blood on her hands. It’s better to let her life end on the point of a sword. 

Arya isn't compliant? What about throwing away nearly all her stuff? She could've broken that milk cup whenever she wanted, but she didn't.

Sure Arya has an explosive personality. But what about Dany? Like, @Brynden “Bloodraven”Rivers said she said she'd burn the Usurper and his dogs in dragonfire (Which I have no objection to, I don't like Baratheons, besides the Mannis). 

Innocent? LMAOOOOOO. Raff is innocent? Dareon would've been executed in Westeros by a lord. If the lord did it, you'd probably call it justice. She's only ever really killed people who she needed to kill or because they really did deserve it. 

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7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Arya is not the compliant type. She’s just as likely to murder her therapists in such a facility. She was always a loaded gun without a safety. Like Jon, she has an explosive personality. She’s a stick of dynamite with a short and defective fuse. The sad events in her life is the spark that pushed her to madness. She will not be treatable. Constant sedation and a secure straightjacket can keep Arya from harming others. Restraints won’t stop her from spitting. A mouth covering will be needed.  But she’s not worth all of that trouble. Arya already has a lot of innocent blood on her hands. It’s better to let her life end on the point of a sword. 

You talk as though she has left a long line of bodies behind her, and for no apparent reason. Most of those she killed were in self-defense or otherwise justifiable (e.g., Bolton guard).  And whatever else the people she killed of her own choice in Braavos were, innocent they were not.  Dareon had committed a capital offense, and betrayed two people Arya cared about in the process (Jon and Sam).  His attitude towards it all didn't help him either.  And Raff is certainly not innocent,.  While I find myself bothered by these actions, I don't feel as though her path is irreversible.  As for the insurance broker, that was ordered by the FM, an order she felt obliged to obey.  So much for not being compliant, although she was reluctant to do it, which may be one reason she appears to be on the slow track now.

I don't think an actual treatment facility would be needed.  A secure and loving environment would likely be sufficient, especially if there were people she liked and respected.  Whether she will find such a place in Martinland is uncertain.  It is worth noting that, when in a normal environment, she is pretty much . . . normal.

In case you haven't noticed, and it appears you haven't, she doesn't exactly go around killing randomly, so I'm not sure who you think she might kill in the future.  Meryn Trant?  Pardon me while I yawn in boredom.  Cersei or one of the Boltons?  I suspect they are either too well protected or otherwise inaccessible.  It's barely plausible she might kill, say, Cersei, but no way could she get away with it, and suicide missions aren't her thing.  Littlefinger certainly deserves it, but he's Sansa's responsibility to deal with.  And the Freys will probably be killing one another soon enough as it is.  And I am hard-pressed who else might be worth the effort.  Ilyn Payne is a possibility, but given that he doesn't really deserve it, that might give her cause to reconsider her actions

Edited by Nevets

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On 10/10/2021 at 5:30 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Slaver's Bay? Where'd you get that? 

Oh, so I sort of assumed that Slaver's Bay was GRRM's somewhat racist version of medieval Middle East, given that its pyramids, climate, more advanced technology and history that goes way, way back. Its also in the middle of Westeros & the Free Cities (Europe), Southryos (Africa) and Yi Ti (China). 

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19 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Arya is not the compliant type. She’s just as likely to murder her therapists in such a facility. She was always a loaded gun without a safety. Like Jon, she has an explosive personality. She’s a stick of dynamite with a short and defective fuse. The sad events in her life is the spark that pushed her to madness. She will not be treatable. Constant sedation and a secure straightjacket can keep Arya from harming others. Restraints won’t stop her from spitting. A mouth covering will be needed.  But she’s not worth all of that trouble. Arya already has a lot of innocent blood on her hands. It’s better to let her life end on the point of a sword. 

Arya can be perfectly compliant when it's in her own (or her friends/family's) best interest. Just look at what a dedicated student she was for Syrio Forel. 

If someone credible that Arya could trust, told her that help her cope better with all the trauma that has happened to her, I'd bet she'd take that offer in a heartbeat. 

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8 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Arya can be perfectly compliant when it's in her own (or her friends/family's) best interest. Just look at what a dedicated student she was for Syrio Forel. 

If someone credible that Arya could trust, told her that help her cope better with all the trauma that has happened to her, I'd bet she'd take that offer in a heartbeat. 

Arya’s lessons with Syrio took place before she went insane. 

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On 10/11/2021 at 9:33 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Arya is not the compliant type. She’s just as likely to murder her therapists in such a facility. She was always a loaded gun without a safety. Like Jon, she has an explosive personality. She’s a stick of dynamite with a short and defective fuse. The sad events in her life is the spark that pushed her to madness. She will not be treatable. Constant sedation and a secure straightjacket can keep Arya from harming others. Restraints won’t stop her from spitting. A mouth covering will be needed.  But she’s not worth all of that trouble. Arya already has a lot of innocent blood on her hands. It’s better to let her life end on the point of a sword. 

I actually don't think Jon Snow has an explosiver personality.

In terms of temperament, Arya has more in common with Lysa, Catelyn, Rickon and of course Lyanna and Brandon.

On 10/12/2021 at 5:19 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

Oh, so I sort of assumed that Slaver's Bay was GRRM's somewhat racist version of medieval Middle East, given that its pyramids, climate, more advanced technology and history that goes way, way back. Its also in the middle of Westeros & the Free Cities (Europe), Southryos (Africa) and Yi Ti (China). 

Somewhat racist?

Are you referring to the whole orientalism thing or is it something else he got flagged for? Can you please elaborate?

I would say that Asshai is a cross between India and the Americas

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No. Arya is not mentally ill. Her behaviour points to her being a child soldier, which is not coincidentally how George R. R. Martin describes her in interviews and Q&A's. Of course, labeling women and girls with atypical interests, behaviours or personalities as "mentally ill" has a rather long and ugly history, while this particular thread seems to imply that people who suffer mental illness are violent and dangerous, when they are, for the most part, neither of those things. One should always tread carefully when discussing intensely personal and internal matters like mental illness. I do not blame some commenters here for becoming upset or defensive.

Beyond that, as another commenter pointed out, Arya behaves peacefully when she finds herself in stable and friendly environments, she doesn't lose touch with established reality at any point and she takes actions that are based on rational assesments and logical conclusions. One of her guiding principles is literally "look with your eyes," i.e, "don't let your own biases affect your judgement of reality." Would an insane person be able to do this? Probably not. Arya's behaviour makes more sense as a child soldier, attacking people she understands are enemies. That's not mental illness. So, no.

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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

No. Arya is not mentally ill. Her behaviour points to her being a child soldier, which is not coincidentally how George R. R. Martin describes her in interviews and Q&A's. Of course, labeling women and girls with atypical interests, behaviours or personalities as "mentally ill" has a rather long and ugly history, while this particular thread seems to imply that people who suffer mental illness are violent and dangerous, when they are, for the most part, neither of those things. One should always tread carefully when discussing intensely personal and internal matters like mental illness. I do not blame some commenters here for becoming upset or defensive.

Beyond that, as another commenter pointed out, Arya behaves peacefully when she finds herself in stable and friendly environments, she doesn't lose touch with established reality at any point and she takes actions that are based on rational assesments and logical conclusions. One of her guiding principles is literally "look with your eyes," i.e, "don't let your own biases affect your judgement of reality." Would an insane person be able to do this? Probably not. Arya's behaviour makes more sense as a child soldier, attacking people she understands are enemies. That's not mental illness. So, no.

Great answer.

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18 hours ago, Walda said:

You know Syrio was teaching Arya how to kill, don't you?

lmao, so Jon and Robb and every noble boy who's ever trained with a sword is insane? Plus, if Ned thought it was a risk for his nine year old daughter to have a sword and learn to use it, do you think he would've permitted Arya to keep Needle? 

On 10/12/2021 at 3:19 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

Oh, so I sort of assumed that Slaver's Bay was GRRM's somewhat racist version of medieval Middle East, given that its pyramids, climate, more advanced technology and history that goes way, way back. Its also in the middle of Westeros & the Free Cities (Europe), Southryos (Africa) and Yi Ti (China). 

I've always pictured it as being Westeros (medieval England or France), Free Cities (those Italian city states, Braavos is Venice maybe?), Sothoryos (Africa or South America, or Asian jungle) and all the stuff east of Meereen and Lhazar is China, etc). 

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1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

mao, so Jon and Robb and every noble boy who's ever trained with a sword is insane? Plus, if Ned thought it was a risk for his nine year old daughter to have a sword and learn to use it, do you think he would've permitted Arya to keep Needle? 

Great points. And where is the evidence that Arya is insane when she uses that training to kill people, while Jon and Robb et al are just putting the excellent education Eddard ensured they got into practice when required?

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1 minute ago, Walda said:

Great points. And where is the evidence that Arya is insane when she uses that training to kill people, while Jon and Robb et al are just putting the excellent education Eddard ensured they got into practice when required?

She hasn't killed anyone with Needle that she didn't have to kill (Yes, that includes the squire, he would've died a slow death if not for Arya ending it quickly). 

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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

No. Arya is not mentally ill. Her behaviour points to her being a child soldier, which is not coincidentally how George R. R. Martin describes her in interviews and Q&A's. Of course, labeling women and girls with atypical interests, behaviours or personalities as "mentally ill" has a rather long and ugly history, while this particular thread seems to imply that people who suffer mental illness are violent and dangerous, when they are, for the most part, neither of those things. One should always tread carefully when discussing intensely personal and internal matters like mental illness. I do not blame some commenters here for becoming upset or defensive.

Beyond that, as another commenter pointed out, Arya behaves peacefully when she finds herself in stable and friendly environments, she doesn't lose touch with established reality at any point and she takes actions that are based on rational assesments and logical conclusions. One of her guiding principles is literally "look with your eyes," i.e, "don't let your own biases affect your judgement of reality." Would an insane person be able to do this? Probably not. Arya's behaviour makes more sense as a child soldier, attacking people she understands are enemies. That's not mental illness. So, no.

I agree mostly.

But I will mention that people do get categorized/diagnosed as mentally ill or emotionally unstable when they are in high-stress, toxic and dangerous if not uncertain environments. Even when those events have passed.

There is a debate going on as to whether PTSD is a form of mental illness.

 

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10 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I've always pictured it as being Westeros (medieval England or France), Free Cities (those Italian city states, Braavos is Venice maybe?), Sothoryos (Africa or South America, or Asian jungle) and all the stuff east of Meereen and Lhazar is China, etc). 

To me, Westeros is prime medieval northern Europe. The Free Cities are Italian city-states during early Renaissance

I really wish that some of the story or we had a POV from Yi Ti. One thing I am excited about Melisandre's POV is that we will get more information about the lands east of the Bone Mountains

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14 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I really wish that some of the story or we had a POV from Yi Ti. One thing I am excited about Melisandre's POV is that we will get more information about the lands east of the Bone Mountains

It would be very interesting for a YiTish character who tells us a little bit about Yi Ti. If there's a problem with a little bit of worldbuilding, simply have the character talk about the Five Forts, the Long Night legends, Great Empire of the Dawn all that stuff along with the worldbuilding. 

14 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

To me, Westeros is prime medieval northern Europe. The Free Cities are Italian city-states during early Renaissance

 

I think it's modelled more after England, what with GRRM basing the land shapes off of England.

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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On 10/10/2021 at 7:16 AM, SeanF said:

Most people leading middle class lives in a peaceful society would not.

People living on their wits in a medieval world at war would act differently.

People who suffer injustice in this world take brutal vengeance, when they get the chance.

Many people suffer in the medieval world of Westeros and very rarely do we see them become savage nutcases like Arya Stark.  

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1 hour ago, Rondo said:

Many people suffer in the medieval world of Westeros and very rarely do we see them become savage nutcases like Arya Stark.  

We see them doing things like sticking malefactors in crow cages.

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