Do you think Rhaegar knew Jon Connington was gay and in love by him?

[frenin]

On 9/28/2021 at 1:46 PM, corbon said:

I don't see that he was necessarily particularly close friends with JonCon in the first place. Jon Con was his squire for a while, so not really a 'peer'.

He is called that by Selmy.

 

Quote

"I make no such claim, ser. Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar's squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions. Young Lord Connington was dear to the prince as well, but his oldest friend was Arthur Dayne."

 

On 9/28/2021 at 1:46 PM, corbon said:

Does a disdainful, arrogant, proud, glory hound who clearly disdains the Crown Princess sound like the likely close friend of a bookish, dutiful, able, much-loved-by-the-commoners prince?

Believe it or not, people with opposite character traits can become fast friends very easily. In fact, the go to friendship in the books that it's pointed out by most is that of Eddard and Robert... who had like nothing in common.

Besides, nothing you have pointed out actually clashes with Rhaegar's personality anyway. Like at all, much loved by commoners is not a trait.

 

 

On 9/27/2021 at 8:57 PM, Odej said:

We know about JonCon sexuality and his love by his silver prince, but did Rhaegar know? If he did, how he felt about it? If he don't, how he would fell? That will be strange for him and he wouldn't be friends with JonCon anymore?

I don't think he knew. In fact, I'd say that given Westerosi's attitude, JonCon would try to hide it.

 

 

 

 

[corbon]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

He is called that by Selmy.

Fair cop, I'd forgotten that quote.

I'm not sure Selmy is that reliable a source - he wasn't part of Rhaegar's circle and is a bit naive in relevant ways. But there it is, fwiw.
I think it clashes rather, with Kevin's IMO much more reliable viewpoint.

Quote

 He had known Jon Connington, slightly—a proud youth, the most headstrong of the gaggle of young lordlings who had gathered around Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, competing for his royal favor. Arrogant, but able and energetic.

I think Kevin is exactly the sort if dispassionate, experienced, more worldly overview that far outweighs Selmy's somewhat naive understanding of relationships.

But perhaps I'm wrong.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Believe it or not, people with opposite character traits can become fast friends very easily. In fact, the go to friendship in the books that it's pointed out by most is that of Eddard and Robert... who had like nothing in common.

True. Though those two were sort of thrown together in a virtual peer situation, at a young age where those things form more easily. They were pretty much bound to either hate each or love each other. Jon Con was very much a junior to Rhaegar, in age, in experience, and in status. And I think they both knew it. Its pretty clear from JonCon's reminiscence 

I don't see much evidence, outside Barristan's, that Rhaegar was particularly personal in his association with JonCon. A hanger on, included generally because of his former squireship, but the reminisces of Connington on the eastern Tower at Griffin's Roost seem to me to show the JonCon knew how far out of Rhaegar's circle he was, even if it appeared less so to some from further afield. Even he, looking back, despairs at the obvious desperation to be more of a peer.

Quote

Yet when they parted, Jon Connington did not go to the sept. Instead his steps led him up to the roof of the east tower, the tallest at Griffin's Roost. As he climbed he remembered past ascents—a hundred with his lord father, who liked to stand and look out over woods and crags and sea and know that all he saw belonged to House Connington, and one (only one!) with Rhaegar Targaryen.

..."Your father's lands are beautiful," Prince Rhaegar had said, standing right where Jon was standing now. And the boy he'd been had replied, "One day they will all be mine." As if that could impress a prince who was heir to the entire realm, from the Arbor to the Wall.

 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Besides, nothing you have pointed out actually clashes with Rhaegar's personality anyway. Like at all, much loved by commoners is not a trait.

Arrogant and disdainful lordlings are not usually 'liked by all'. And agreed, being 'liked by all' is not a personality trait. But it does point to the absence of certain disagreeable personality traits.

And those who are most able, and dutiful, IME, usually are not 'close' to arrogant and disdainful types around them, though they often have to associate with them quite closely.  Nor do people who are not glory hounds usually have much respect for those who are. And I think respect is an important requirement for closeness. For example, I think Ned, while acknowledging Robert's flaws, respects his friend for being true to himself - his generosity and quickness to forgive, and that he never did things for show, but did them because that was who he was. - the good and the bad. I think the judgement over Lady was the first time Ned really saw how far Robert had fallen, but by that time his love was too deep to disentangle.

JonCon was considered 'able and energetic' by his seniors, and skilled at arms. I'll give him that. 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't think he knew. In fact, I'd say that given Westerosi's attitude, JonCon would try to hide it.

I agree. 

[EggBlue]

29 minutes ago, corbon said:

 

True. Though those two were sort of thrown together in a virtual peer situation, at a young age where those things form more easily. They were pretty much bound to either hate each or love each other. Jon Con was very much a junior to Rhaegar, in age, in experience, and in status. And I think they both knew it. Its pretty clear from JonCon's reminiscence 

I don't see much evidence, outside Barristan's, that Rhaegar was particularly personal in his association with JonCon. A hanger on, included generally because of his former squireship, but the reminisces of Connington on the eastern Tower at Griffin's Roost seem to me to show the JonCon knew how far out of Rhaegar's circle he was, even if it appeared less so to some from further afield. Even he, looking back, despairs at the obvious desperation to be more of a peer.

 

actually I thought JonConn was Rhaegar's peer ... firstly for what Selmy said but then Young Griff tells Tyrion that his father and lord connington were Squires together at kingslanding and Jon himself thinks about how they were both boys back then.... if they were both squires together then it makes total sense for them ( both smart and skilled) to be friends at a young age. as for how Jon wanted impress rhaegar it's obvious .. we all want to impress our crush in some way and that sort of puts us in a vulnerable position just as Jon here. anyways I think it might be possible that Jon knew something of Rhaegar's plans.at least I wish so that we can read them in his chapters:) .

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/28/2021 at 5:12 PM, LindsayLohan said:

JonCon had to spend his entire life thinking "There's no way that hipster-with-a-harp ain't gay. No way." Rhaegar could have had a threesome with Elia and Lyanna on the steps of the Holy Sept, and half the men in King's Landing would have still thought he was gay.

Westeros is not our world and hipsters don't exist. Nobody ever questions Rhaegar's sexuality in series (even Connington's is only indicated by his own POV).

[frenin]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Fair cop, I'd forgotten that quote.

I'm not sure Selmy is that reliable a source - he wasn't part of Rhaegar's circle and is a bit naive in relevant ways. But there it is, fwiw.

You don't need to be part of someone's inner circle to know their closest friends.  Barristan was a kingsguard and he had access to Rhaegar's friends and family, i don't know how he can be naive telling who are his friends tho. He seem to have aknow that Rhaegar and Dayne were best bros, so i find the idea that he could accurately tell one but not the other... odd.

 

53 minutes ago, corbon said:

I think it clashes rather, with Kevin's IMO much more reliable viewpoint.

Seems much more reliable, to you, because to you it agrees with your pre conceived idea.

How can you try and dismiss Barristan's words for not being part of Rhaegar's inner circle... yet accept Kevan's... Who was not only part of that circle but also there is no source that can place the man around King's Landing during those years...

 

 

55 minutes ago, corbon said:

Fair cop, I'd forgotten that quote.

I'm not sure Selmy is that reliable a source - he wasn't part of Rhaegar's circle and is a bit naive in relevant ways. But there it is, fwiw.

Not really, since there is nothing there than disproves the idea than they were close friends. Those statements are not mutually exclusive.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

True. Though those two were sort of thrown together in a virtual peer situation, at a young age where those things form more easily. They were pretty much bound to either hate each or love each other. Jon Con was very much a junior to Rhaegar, in age, in experience, and in status. And I think they both knew it. Its pretty clear from JonCon's reminiscence 

Friendship is friendship and it blooms at any age.

Rhaegar and JonCon were one year apart in age, just like Robert and Ned, and while Rhaegar was the Crown Prince, JonCon was the heir of a highlord, just as Robert was going to be a great lord but Ned was just a second born. I don't really know what's the difference in experience anyway.

Jon's reminiscence suggests complete adoration, not that they were worlds apart.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I don't see much evidence, outside Barristan's, that Rhaegar was particularly personal in his association with JonCon. A hanger on, included generally because of his former squireship, but the reminisces of Connington on the eastern Tower at Griffin's Roost seem to me to show the JonCon knew how far out of Rhaegar's circle he was, even if it appeared less so to some from further afield. Even he, looking back, despairs at the obvious desperation to be more of a peer.

Again, you keep seeing what you want to see. Their meeting in Griffin Roost is just JonCon trying to be noticed by his crush, nothing else nothing more. He never wanted to be a peer, he wanted Rhaegar to love him.

In fact, the one who regrets not having Rhaegar's trust is Barri B, not once JonCon.

We do not know when they became friends anyawy.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Arrogant and disdainful lordlings are not usually 'liked by all'. And agreed, being 'liked by all' is not a personality trait. But it does point to the absence of certain disagreeable personality traits.

You think so?? It can also mean that those traits are either hidden or not shown. 

Anyway. the point is not that JonCon was liked by all, but that Rhaegar liked him... Which is indeed feasible and what happened by primary sources.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

And those who are most able, and dutiful, IME, usually are not 'close' to arrogant and disdainful types around them, though they often have to associate with them quite closely.  Nor do people who are not glory hounds usually have much respect for those who are.

The world is as vast as its people, you'd be surprised as how can people so different can become real close because or despite those traits.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

And I think respect is an important requirement for closeness. For example, I think Ned, while acknowledging Robert's flaws, respects his friend for being true to himself - his generosity and quickness to forgive, and that he never did things for show, but did them because that was who he was. - the good and the bad. I think the judgement over Lady was the first time Ned really saw how far Robert had fallen, but by that time his love was too deep to disentangle.

You seem to think that Kevan's quick bio is all there is to JonCon, Robert and Ned were friends since boyhood, there is no much respect there, that grows or wanes over time, you either like this kid or dislike kid.

I find the justification rather weak. Human interactions are not based on a checking some imaginary boxes for it to be a connection. 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

actually I thought JonConn was Rhaegar's peer ... firstly for what Selmy said but then Young Griff tells Tyrion that his father and lord connington were Squires together at kingslanding and Jon himself thinks about how they were both boys back then.... if they were both squires together then it makes total sense for them ( both smart and skilled) to be friends at a young age.

Nope. Or at least not quite.

Young Griff tells us that Griff and Rhaegar were squires together.

Quote

Well, I saw him twice or thrice, but I was only ten when Robert killed him, and mine own sire had me hidden underneath a rock. No, I cannot claim I knew Prince Rhaegar. Not as your false father did. Lord Connington was the prince's dearest friend, was he not?"

Young Griff pushed a lock of blue hair out of his eyes. "They were squires together at King's Landing."

"A true friend, our Lord Connington. He must be, to remain so fiercely loyal to the grandson of the king who took his lands and titles and sent him into exile. A pity about that. Elsewise Prince Rhaegar's friend might have been on hand when my father sacked King's Landing, to save Prince Rhaegar's precious little son from getting his royal brains dashed out against a wall."

Thats the only source that says so. Does he know accurately? Is he just confused about something he heard from his father? This is not a strong source. It may be accurate, it may be not.
Note also that Tyrion poses the question as Connington being Rhaegar's "dearest friend". Yet Barristan tells us that that was Dayne, even though Barristan wasn;t part of Rahegar's inner circle and thus probably not that clear about the details of the prince's relationships (plus thats a weak area for Barristan). YG's answer is an explanation, not a rebuttal. It seems as though he believes the dearest friend part too. So I think he's probably put things together from his father's stories, not necessarily from knowledge of specific facts.
 

Barristan, who is probably the best source we could possibly have in this area (positions at court in Aerys' time) says:

Quote

"I make no such claim, ser. Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar's squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions. Young Lord Connington was dear to the prince as well, but his oldest friend was Arthur Dayne."

Why does he describe Mooton and Lonmouth as Rhaegar's squires (not at the same time) but Connington differently? It may mean nothing, but it may also be relevant.

Daemon Sand, bastard of Godsgrace, tells Arriane that 

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"As my princess commands. Connington was Lord of Griffin's Roost when Griffin's Roost was still a lordship worth the having. Prince Rhaegar's squire, or one of them. Later Prince Rhaegar's friend and companion. The Mad King named him Hand during Robert's Rebellion, but he was defeated at Stoney Sept in the Battle of the Bells, and Robert slipped away. King Aerys was wroth, and sent Connington into exile. There he died."

Daemon is to young to have known these men, so I'd be a little wary of this info. However Arriane thinks that Prince Doran had told her all this and more already. Allowing for the possibility that what Doran told her was not exactly the same, but close enough that her casual thought doesn't pick apart any minor differences, I think we have to accept this as a fairly solid piece of evidence. At least as to position - I doubt either Doran or Daemon knew the intimate details of Rhaegar's inner circle.

 

All in all, I'd say probably JonCon was Rhaegar's squire at some stage. It possible they were squires together as well (earlier), but unlikely I think.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

 and Jon himself thinks about how they were both boys back then.

Look a bit deeper...

Quote

Yet when they parted, Jon Connington did not go to the sept. Instead his steps led him up to the roof of the east tower, the tallest at Griffin's Roost. As he climbed he remembered past ascents—a hundred with his lord father, who liked to stand and look out over woods and crags and sea and know that all he saw belonged to House Connington, and one (only one!) with Rhaegar Targaryen. Prince Rhaegar was returning from Dorne, and he and his escort had lingered here a fortnight. He was so young then, and I was younger. Boys, the both of us. At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. Not the men, of course. Particularly not his own father, whose only love was land. Lord Armond Connington spent the entire evening trying to win the prince to his side in his dispute with Lord Morrigen.

This is much older Griff thinking. Rhaegar was so young - maybe 16ish to 22ish? Thats a 'boy' to old Griff. Jon Con was younger. While JonCon is mooning over the older Rhaegar, his father is trying to involve the young Crown Prince in land disputes.

These are not 'boys together', for all JonCon's rosy reminisces. The gap between them is much larger than just years.

Then think too, only one walk up those stairs together. In two weeks hanging out at the castle. And a lifetime (well, a number of years) of potential other visits.
So maybe not so close as some thought.

Rhaegar at 17 beat Selmy, Tyget and Gerion Lannister and a dozen of the finest knights of the west and lost only to Arthur Dayne at Tywin's tournament. But rarely entered tourneys because he wasn't interested in glory etc. Where was JonCon?

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

as for how Jon wanted impress rhaegar it's obvious .. we all want to impress our crush in some way and that sort of puts us in a vulnerable position just as Jon here.

I don't see awkward 'vulnerability'. I see a polite and respectful but distant young prince and a mooning, awkward, immature boy that has a crush on him.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

anyways I think it might be possible that Jon knew something of Rhaegar's plans.at least I wish so that we can read them in his chapters:) .

Its possible. Some of them anyway.
I just don't think the data indicates Rhaegar was particularly close to JonCon, despite what some people may have thought.

 

[corbon]

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

You seem to think that Kevan's quick bio is all there is to JonCon,

Not all by any means. But accurate. Kevan is astute (or Tywin would never have relied on him so much), and his position as Tywin's second means he's well experienced in judgig character and relationships, and noticing and understanding how relationships within circles work and affect people's performance, choices and actions.

Barristan is pretty reliable I think in terms of social and technical positions, and military expertise. Black and white things. 
But a bit dim in terms of relationships and human connections, grey things. He's not the sharpest mind, especially so in these areas
These strengths and weakness come from his character, his life experiences, his position as Kingsguard and the choices he has made over his life.

This is why I place a much greater value on Kevan's observation than on Barristan's - in this case.

I also think JonCon's own reminisces point to the gulf between him and Rhaegar. We don't see any closeness, any shared or bonding experiences. We see apart-ness, and yearning.

Quote

I find the justification rather weak. Human interactions are not based on a checking some imaginary boxes for it to be a connection. 

You are free to. I'm just explaining the basis of my thoughts for better understanding.

[frenin]

37 minutes ago, corbon said:

Not all by any means. But accurate. Kevan is astute (or Tywin would never have relied on him so much), and his position as Tywin's second means he's well experienced in judgig character and relationships, and noticing and understanding how relationships within circles work and affect people's performance, choices and actions.

So, Kevan who would have seen JonCon a handful of times, at best, is a better judge than Barri who would see him as daily basis... for years 

His position as Tywin's second in command means that he's able to follow order and execute them well enough. Kevan is certainly an intelligent and able man. But that has nothing to do with what he does for Tywin.

Regardless, there's nothing in Kevin's description who clashes with the statement of those two being close pals.

 

 

37 minutes ago, corbon said:

But a bit dim in terms of relationships and human connections, grey things. He's not the sharpest mind, especially so in these areas
These strengths and weakness come from his character, his life experiences, his position as Kingsguard and the choices he has made over his life.

He doesn't seem dim at all, I do not think there's an instance in which Baristan is described in such way. 

You do not have to be Tywin Lannister to spot two good friends. Their behavior is rather obvious to anyone with an ounze of interpersonal skills and it becomes even more obvious if that behavior is continued.

Unless Baristan suffers some kind of autistic disorder or has never had or experienced friendship at all. I do not really see how can this be serious.

 

 

37 minutes ago, corbon said:

This is why I place a much greater value on Kevan's observation than on Barristan's - in this case.

Again, they do not clash.

 

 

37 minutes ago, corbon said:

I also think JonCon's own reminisces point to the gulf between him and Rhaegar. We don't see any closeness, any shared or bonding experiences. We see apart-ness, and yearning.

We don't know neither at what time was that or when they apparently became close.

We only see a shy kid around his crush.

 

 

39 minutes ago, corbon said:

You are free to. I'm just explaining the basis of my thoughts for better understanding

Fair enough.

 

 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

So, Kevan who would have seen JonCon a handful of times, at best, is a better judge than Barri who would see him as daily basis... for years 

Yes, I think so. Especially as Barristan would rarely 'see' the intimate details of Rhaegar's relationships with the younger men at court. He has other duties, another focus entirely.

I suspect your characterisation of Kevan being rarely at court is rather understated, and your characterisation of Barristan seeing Rhaegar daily for years is rather overstated - in this context at least.

Quote

He doesn't seem dim at all, I do not think there's an instance in which Baristan is described in such way. 

He's not stupid. He's very good at what he does, one of the best there is. But he's also quite limited outside that. That is apparent in his thoughts. His whole life has been tightly defined by one thought, one duty. He's as green as a boy in other areas.

Quote

Fair enough.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I doubt it. Most people probably don’t know a lot about homosexuality in this world. We never really see it discussed openly, and it appears that everyone is assumed to be straight unless they’re caught in the act. Even with Renly and Loras, who seem to have been as close to out as you can get in Westeros, half of the POV characters appear unaware of the nature of their relationship. Cersei knows about it, but she still expects that Renly had no qualms about consummating his marriage, so the Westerosi may not even see it as a sexual orientation so much as something that adventurous people do for fun (like Oberyn). 
 

I will say this for JonCon: other characters, notably Jaime, remember him as Rhaegar’s friend, which says a lot when you consider that Rhaegar is said to have been remarkably hard to get close to. So Rhaegar did, at the very least, hold JonCon in some esteem. 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes, I think so. Especially as Barristan would rarely 'see' the intimate details of Rhaegar's relationships with the younger men at court. He has other duties, another focus entirely.

Again, do you need to see someone having intimate moments with his friends to spot those who are closer to him?? Again, why are you painting Barristan as someone with less interpersonal skills than Stannis. I really fail to see it.

He doesn't have to be 24/7 over Rhaegar to notice that anyway.

How many were there to again see Robert and Ned being intimate?? Yet they can accurately describe their bond as brotherly like. 

I find it incredibly convenient that Barristan can talk with precision about the friendship between Dayne and Rhaegar but not the other ...

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

I suspect your characterisation of Kevan being rarely at court is rather understated, and your characterisation of Barristan seeing Rhaegar daily for years is rather overstated - in this context at least.

Kevan is simply not mentioned at court at all, he was the one his father chose to be in the Westerlands and when Tywin became Hand, he would have been the default ruler in the Westerlands.

He may have been in the court here and there but it's unlikely that it was a lot of time. There's opportunity that he meet all of them in the 6 months window Aerys and the court spent at Casterly Rock tho.

 

Barristan was the Targs glorified bodyguard, which means that until the later years of Aerys, he had to be with Rhaegar on almost daily basis.

Btw, the prior user also remember me that Jaime too remembers him as Rhaegar's close pal.

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Westeros is not our world and hipsters don't exist. Nobody ever questions Rhaegar's sexuality in series (even Connington's is only indicated by his own POV).

You could perhaps make an argument that the fear that Rhaegar was Baelor the Blessed reborn might be a reference to Baelor’s apparent abstinence from sexual relations with his sister-wife, as opposed to his studious nature.

But regardless, I’m not sure that homosexuality among the nobles, especially in their younger years, would be considered a huge scandal in Westerosi society, or even that big of a deal.

At the very least, there doesn’t appear to be any scandal in regards to Renly and Loras, even though based on Jaime’s POV, it appears that a few nobles probably guessed the true nature of their relationship.

And while it’s possible that there might be a religious taboo, it’s never really highlighted in the books.  And even if there was, a good portion of the nobles seemed to primarily pay lip service to religion.

There is certainly no concept of having a sexual identity in Westerosi society.  That fairly modern concept doesn’t appear to exist there.  My guess is whatever these nobles did in their off time was probably ignored as long as it didn’t interfere with their primary duties of creating a marriage alliance and an heir for their household.

After all, marrying and having children wasn’t really considered an act of love for the nobility.  It had more to do with honor and duty.  Almost all of the marriages were arranged.  So the idea of marrying someone based on love and attraction seemed to be the exception rather than the norm.

I think it’s highly possible that Connington may have had a sexual or even romantic relationship with Rhaegar prior to Rhaegar’s marriage To Elia.  Which might partly explain Connington’s feelings towards Elia.  She was the reason that their relationship ended.  Rhaegar had to do his duty and marry and create an heir for the kingdom.

The temptation to ridicule Connington for pining away for a straight man might be a bit unfair here.  After all we don’t know whether or not their relationship involved a romantic element.  It very well may have.  Regardless, because of Rhaegar’s position both as the heir to the kingdom whatever their relationship was had to be subordinate to his duties as the heir.

Of course in Rhaegar’s case it may have been even more complicated, if in fact he also felt the need/burden to conceive a messiah to save the land from a Long Night.

[FictionIsntReal]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You could perhaps make an argument that the fear that Rhaegar was Baelor the Blessed reborn might be a reference to Baelor’s apparent abstinence from sexual relations with his sister-wife, as opposed to his studious nature.

That bit is weird because the far more obvious comparison is Aerys I.

Quote

At the very least, there doesn’t appear to be any scandal in regards to Renly and Loras, even though based on Jaime’s POV, it appears that a few nobles probably guessed the true nature of their relationship.

Some people know, but Robert didn't and Sansa remains unaware. I don't think Brienne knew either. Cersei doesn't want Loras teaching Tommen, but she also thinks the worst of others.

Quote

My guess is whatever these nobles did in their off time was probably ignored as long as it didn’t interfere with their primary duties of creating a marriage alliance and an heir for their household.

In the case of Laenor Velaryon, his sexual preferences actually were brought up as an objection to marrying him to Rhaenyra, only for Mellos to dismiss them. Runciter had earlier argued (less successfully) for Viserys to be married to 12-year Laena Velaryon instead of Alicent, so this could just reflect Grand Maesters being committed to uniting those two houses and the celibate order not taking seriously such preferences.

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I think it’s highly possible that Connington may have had a sexual or even romantic relationship with Rhaegar prior to Rhaegar’s marriage To Elia.

No, he would have remembered that instead of Rhaegar's comment about the Connington lands.

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That bit is weird because the far more obvious comparison is Aerys I.

That’s one of the reasons, I wonder if the concern was more about Rhaegar’s lack of interest in the opposite sex.

 

16 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

In the case of Laenor Velaryon, his sexual preferences actually were brought up as an objection to marrying him to Rhaenyra, only for Mellos to dismiss them. Runciter had earlier argued (less successfully) for Viserys to be married to 12-year Laena Velaryon instead of Alicent, so this could just reflect Grand Maesters being committed to uniting those two houses and the celibate order not taking seriously such preferences.

It was brought up but then readily discarded:

Quote

One objection was raised: Laenor Velaryon was now nineteen years of age, yet had never shown any interest in women. Instead he surrounded himself with handsome squires of his own age, and was said to prefer their company. But Grand Maester Mellos dismissed this concern out of hand. “What of it?” he said. “I do not like the taste of fish, but when fish is served, I eat it.” Thus was the match decided.

Like I said, I really don’t think there was a lot of concern over someone’s sexual preference.  As long as everyone thought that Laenor would conceive an heir, everyone was satisfied.

18 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, he would have remembered that instead of Rhaegar's comment about the Connington lands.

I think you have to look at the context of Connington’s memory.  He was standing on the same battlements where he and Rhaegar stood when he had that memory.  That doesn’t mean this was the only memory he had of his time with Rhaegar Targaryen.  But this was the memory that standing atop his castle invoked.

[BlackLightning]

18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Cersei knows about it, but she still expects that Renly had no qualms about consummating his marriage, so the Westerosi may not even see it as a sexual orientation so much as something that adventurous people do for fun (like Oberyn). 

Well I think the only reason Cersei knows about it is because she watched Renly grow up and that she herself is no stranger to strange sexual preferences and behavior in children.

I'm also not even convinced that Renly bothered to hide it. Robert didn't care (Stannis did and it's probably a big reason why Stannis and Renly's relationship was so frosty) and Robert was the king. Renly was also the Lord of Storm's End and wasn't effeminate either: unfortunately, a masculine openly but somewhat discreet gay man is less offensive than an loud, flamboyant feminine gay man. So who would be that bothered about it? 

Plus, I surmise that the Small Council and the court had bigger concerns than the moonings of a thirteen year old boy who spent much of his time away under the supervision of a maester at Storm's End.

 

I think people in Dorne, the Free Cities and Meereen are more likely to view (and respect) homosexuality as an sexual orientation rather than a sexual act, whim or preference.

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Cersei doesn't want Loras teaching Tommen, but she also thinks the worst of others.

Now, in Cersei's defense....lol

I'm just kidding. But yeah, Cersei knows about Renly and Loras. It's part of the reason why she hates the Tyrells so much.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The temptation to ridicule Connington for pining away for a straight man might be a bit unfair here.  

Indeed. It is very unfair. And also more common than what people would think.

 

 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/30/2021 at 2:00 PM, Frey family reunion said:

That’s one of the reasons, I wonder if the concern was more about Rhaegar’s lack of interest in the opposite sex.

But the same thing would apply to Aerys I!

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It was brought up but then readily discarded:

It was discarded by a member of a celibate order that had already been trying to form a marriage pact between the Targaryens & Velaryons when one of them was really too young to marry.

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Like I said, I really don’t think there was a lot of concern over someone’s sexual preference

In the case of Loras Tyrell, one of his brothers notes that it's better Sansa is marrying Tyrion rather than him, and LF notes that him joining the KG resolves the "doubly difficult" problem of marriage for him. I think Viserys' decision here shouldn't be taken as the norm, but instead an example of him being irresponsible and doing what he finds easy regardless of whether others are likely to be accommodating to his plans.

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I think you have to look at the context of Connington’s memory

The context of that memory (though the line actually gets repeated) is that Jon remembered a futile attempt to impress the prince, which he's now embarrassed of. "I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell". Note the "tried", not that he actually did grasp the star and then fell.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/30/2021 at 5:10 PM, BlackLightning said:

Robert didn't care

Robert didn't seem to know. He goes on about how any father would be happy to have Loras as a son, and I don't think that means Robert believes all fathers to be accepting of such sexual preferences. This would fit with Robert also being ignorant of Jaime & Cersei. But even Tyrion seems not to understand when he talks to Loras about taking a vow of celibacy.

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I think people in Dorne[...] are more likely to view (and respect) homosexuality as an sexual orientation rather than a sexual act, whim or preference.

Even Oberyn Martell mocks Loras as "Renly's little rose". That may reflect the view that Loras was the receptive partner, which Jaime also implies, and is related to why Satin is more disrespected than Whoresbane Umber.

[Bors Bulwer]

On 9/28/2021 at 8:27 AM, EggBlue said:

the gay prince who cheated on his wife with yet another woman? how?

Rhaegar seemed to be the type of guy that did what was needed. The only time he did not, war ensued. He was bookish guy, yet at some point driven by one of his readings and Targaryen "prophecies", he said: "It seems that I must be a warrior." After that he went and became one of the best of his time. 

So even if he was gay or bissexual, he could "hide" this because fathering the "chosen prince" was his duty, his destiny. 

At least that's how I see it. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 9/27/2021 at 2:57 PM, Odej said:

We know about JonCon sexuality and his love by his silver prince, but did Rhaegar know? If he did, how he felt about it? If he don't, how he would fell? That will be strange for him and he wouldn't be friends with JonCon anymore?

Probably not , they were friends but not that close .

[sifth]

I know I'm probably wrong, but it my head I always pictured that Rhaegar named Jon Snow, after his best friend, who's true feelings he could never fully return.