Lord Varys Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 22 minutes ago, BlackLightning said: Agreed. After Cersei, Renly did the most damage to the Baratheon dynasty. What Robert should've did is punish Tywin and his brutes and strike some sort of a deal with Queen Rhaella. That said, Stannis Baratheon has the best claim to the Iron Throne if we are strictly talking the Baratheon dynasty. If we 'know the truth as folks who overheard private conversations of Ned and Cersei', yes. Stannis himself doesn't really know that Robert has no legitimate children. He just suspects it. He never offered any proof, nor did he ever tell us or any POV characters why he was believing what he believes. As such, that's not enough to declare your brother's children bastards and claim the throne for yourself. Especially not if you sat on that knowledge for at least a year and didn't tell anyone. Not your brother the king nor his Hand nor your younger brother. It is almost as if Stannis knew nobody would believe him and wanted to push the issue only when Robert could no longer shut him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The Lannisters and their bannermen pretended to be loyal to the Mad King when they came to KL. They are not exactly as vile traitors as Jaime Lannister, but they are still traitors and turncloaks. Tywin is regarded as less honorable than the rebels who fought at the Trident. But if Ned had beat Tywin to the city and managed to break through the gates, and then some of his men did what Gregor & Amory did he'd still regard that as criminal. Even Randyll Tarly punishes soldiers who engage in crimes. Quote noble folk as such are not revered in this manner, especially not by people who are not beholden to them. Elia Martell should be nothing to Eddard Stark. Nobody in the Reach or Dorne gives two cents about the Red Wedding, for instance. Quote "My lords may not know," said Qyburn, "but in the winesinks and pot shops of this city, there are those who suggest that the crown might have been somehow complicit in Lord Walder's crime." The other councillors stared at him uncertainly. "Do you refer to the Red Wedding?" asked Aurane Waters. "Crime?" said Ser Harys. Pycelle cleared his throat noisily. Lord Gyles coughed. "These sparrows are especially outspoken," warned Qyburn. "The Red Wedding was an affront to all the laws of gods and men, they say, and those who had a hand in it are damned." Cersei was not slow to take his meaning. "Lord Walder must soon face the Father's judgment. He is very old. Let the sparrows spit upon his memory. It has nought to do with us." "A little spittle on Lord Walder's tomb is not like to disturb the grave worms," Qyburn agreed, "but it would also be useful if someone were to be punished for the Red Wedding. A few Frey heads would do much to mollify the north." "Lord Walder will never sacrifice his own," said Pycelle. "No," mused Cersei, "but his heirs may be less squeamish. Lord Walder will soon do us the courtesy of dying, we can hope. What better way for the new Lord of the Crossing to rid himself of inconvenient half brothers, disagreeable cousins, and scheming sisters than by naming them the culprits?" King's Landing was never beholden to Robb Stark (and the Sparrows follow a different religion than the North), yet Cersei's regime plans on pushing the Freys to officially name their own kinsmen as criminals and kill them to take the blame for the Red Wedding. Quote Ned still viewed Aerys II as the king until he was dead. If he was no longer a king, then Jaime didn't commit a crime when he killed him. But in Ned's opinion he committed a crime. If it had been Jaime who killed Ned's father & brother without a trial, Ned would consider that a crime, even though Ned didn't regard either of them as kings. Quote LOL, no, since nobody ever said that Asha would view the Stark children as royalty. Of course, and I am arguing this is like killing Aerys & his family! It's still a crime, even if they are no longer royalty. Quote It is completely irrelevant why the men did what they did. Not in criminal law. You can defend against a murder charge by arguing self defense. Sandor defended himself againt Arya's accusations regarding Mycah by explaining WHY he killed him. And if Jaime had ever explained about the wildfire plot, that could have actually affected how people viewed his action (it certainly did for Brienne). Quote The point is why Aerys II and his family were important enough for the rebels so that their murders were viewed as crimes. But of course the rebels also regarded what happened to Lyanna, Brandon & Rickard as crimes even though they weren't royalty! Quote For Ned, Jaime murdered Aerys II because he was scum who helped his scum father to betray his king and old friend. The notion that Jaime did it just to advance the narrow interests of his own family certainly colors the interpretation of his action. It's not "completely irrelevant" that it was his own father sacking the city. Quote Dunk got a trial. As an alleged knight he also had the right of a trial-by-combat. If he hadn't been a knight, Baelor would have still given him a normal trial, something he could have also had as a knight but chose not to have. We don't know much about smallfolk subjected to "normal" trials. 27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Especially not if you sat on that knowledge for at least a year and didn't tell anyone. Not your brother the king nor his Hand Stannis did tell Robert's Hand: Jon Arryn. Quote It is almost as if Stannis knew nobody would believe him He didn't think ROBERT would believe him, but he had more trust in Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share Posted October 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: The Lannisters and their bannermen pretended to be loyal to the Mad King when they came to KL. They are not exactly as vile traitors as Jaime Lannister, but they are still traitors and turncloaks. I just realised that this makes tywin a breaker of guest right. That makes him and his army worse than Jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 5 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said: I just realised that this makes tywin a breaker of guest right. That makes him and his army worse than Jaime Not quite. He never took salt & bread from his host, instead he attacked as soon as he was in the gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 Stannis has a claim, but it is a very weak claim. Daenerys has the best claim. Understand that a claim is justification of the right to sit on the throne. The claimant must have the power to take the throne. Robert set a bad precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAnArtist! Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Dr. Eldon Tyrell said: Stannis has a claim, but it is a very weak claim. Daenerys has the best claim. Not true. Robert won the throne through the right of conquest, which is considered valid - it's how the Targaryens asserted their right to rule 300 years ago. And if the conquest is complete and successful, as Robert's was, his line becomes the accepted royal one, and his heirs the legitimate ones. The only way another claimant could change that is by winning through conquest, which Daenerys has as yet totally failed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 10, 2021 Author Share Posted October 10, 2021 1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said: Not true. Robert won the throne through the right of conquest, which is considered valid - it's how the Targaryens asserted their right to rule 300 years ago. And if the conquest is complete and successful, as Robert's was, his line becomes the accepted royal one, and his heirs the legitimate ones. The only way another claimant could change that is by winning through conquest, which Daenerys has as yet totally failed to do. Ok I am explaining this for the sixth and last time. If the usurper is king since he subdued the targaryens and defeated them in a battle, then tommen is also king since his predecessor joffrey defeated stannis in a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAnArtist! Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said: Ok I am explaining this for the sixth and last time. If the usurper is king since he subdued the targaryens and defeated them in a battle, then tommen is also king since his predecessor joffrey defeated stannis in a battle. They beat Stannis in a battle, but the war is not over, not as long as Stannis has an army and is conquering territory in the Seven Kingdoms like he currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 10, 2021 Author Share Posted October 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said: They beat Stannis in a battle, but the war is not over, not as long as Stannis has an army and is conquering territory in the Seven Kingdoms like he currently is. Stannis lost dragonstone and is going to lose storms end as well. If we go by the pink letter(I'm holding it canon since it hasn't been proven false yet) stannis is dead and has zero army left. In all likelyhood stannis is more of a rebel Lord than a true contender for the throne now. Dany also has an army and her nephew aegon is currently conquering the seven kingdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAnArtist! Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said: Stannis lost dragonstone and is going to lose storms end as well. Armies are more important than castles. 3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said: If we go by the pink letter(I'm holding it canon since it hasn't been proven false yet) stannis is dead and has zero army left. It hasn't been proven true either. 3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said: In all likelyhood stannis is more of a rebel Lord than a true contender for the throne now. Stannis currently holds more territory and commands more men and has more allies than he did at the start of Clash. Every king in the War of the Five Kings was at some level a "rebel lord". But Stannis has the legitimate claim unlike the rest. 3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said: Dany also has an army Not at the moment she doesn't. She has a dragon, and is surrounded by thousands of Dothraki. And even then, her army is on the other side of the world. Stannis's is in Westeros, near the seat of one of the Great Houses. Completely different situations. 3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said: and her nephew aegon is currently conquering the seven kingdom Yeah, so? He's not doing it for Daenerys, he's doing it for himself. Just like the Renly-Stannis situation in Clash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 10, 2021 Author Share Posted October 10, 2021 28 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said: Armies are more important than castles. Then why did robb make such a big deal out of losing Winterfell. Why didn't stannis leave storms end during the rebellion and join an the usurper if castles are less important than armies. Armies may have prestige but in westeros castles are more prestigious. 28 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said: It hasn't been proven true either. It is said in the books that this is the case and it is believed by jon so for now I am holding it as canon until we learn it's false. 28 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said: Stannis currently holds more territory and commands more men and has more allies than he did at the start of Clash. Every king in the War of the Five Kings was at some level a "rebel lord". But Stannis has the legitimate claim unlike the rest. I want to clarify that by rebel Lord I meant a minor claimant, he has an army equal to that of the reynes and the tarbecks. Most of that army will abandon him the second a stark turns up. 28 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said: Not at the moment she doesn't. She has a dragon, and is surrounded by thousands of Dothraki. And even then, her army is on the other side of the world. Stannis's is in Westeros, near the seat of one of the Great Houses. Completely different situations. Actually she does, the unsullied didn't abandon her nor did the stormcrows and the Meereenese. Just because a ruler is far away from her army doesn't mean that the army is no longer hers. 30 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said: Yeah, so? He's not doing it for Daenerys, he's doing it for himself. Just like the Renly-Stannis situation in Clash. The stannis renly situation is very different. Stannis and renly knew about each other claiming to be king. Dany doesn't even know her nephew is alive. He also plans to marry her and is claiming the throne because his claim is stronger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.