Why stannis baratheon has zero claim to the iron throne

[Daenerysthegreat]

I like stannis, he is a good person who I would like as my friend but I wouldn't make him my king because has zero claim. Stannis can claim the throne on these reasons but they don't make sense. 

Baratheon claim

This is the most obvious one. Stannis is the usurper's brother and the usurper left no trueborn son so stannis should be king. 

The issue is that the usurper is not the rightful king, Jaime Lannister murdered the rightful king. So there goes the baratheon claim.

Right of conquest

Stannis can claim the throne this way as well. The usuper conquered the throne and so by right of conquest the usurper was king and by right of blood stannis is king. 

The problem is that the joffrey can also calim to be the rightful king by right of conquest, renly can also claim the throne, anyone can claim the throne this way. So right of conquest is not possible. 

Feudal contract

It can be argued that King aerys ii broke the feudal contract by killing the starks. So the targaryens have no claim anyone. The usurper became king due to being next in line and stannis is now king. 

The feudal contract states that a king shall not practice tyranny and has to punish criminals. But the usurper didn't even lift a finger to punish tywin for elia, rhaenys and that pisswater boy's murder. So there goes the usurper's claim and stannis's with him. 

 

However it can be argued that since stannis didn't commit these crimes himself he didn't break the contract and is now the rightful king.

But the feudal contract also states that a king shall not commit crimes. In westeros kinslaying is considered a crime. Stannis definitely had renly killed so he is guilty of kinslaying. He could have had renly imprisoned, sent to the nights watch but he killed renly. 

Popular acclaim

A person can also become king by popular acclaim. This is one of the easiest methods to claim legitimacy. 

But who will acclaim stannis as king. The majority of westeros doesn't acknowledge him as king. Those who do almost all of them do it out of fear and duty not love. 

Thus it can be said that stannis is not the rightful king. There are three options for the rightful king

1) Aegon(If we can ignore the fact that King aerys disinherited him and that his parentage is not certain.) 

2) Tommen(Right of conquest) 

3) Daenerys( Indisputable Targaryen claim) 

 

[Lord Lannister]

I mean your "indisputable Targaryen claim" was based on the right of conquest of their ancestors. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

12 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I mean your "indisputable Targaryen claim" was based on the right of conquest of their ancestors. 

Yes it was what of it. Difference is stannis isn't claiming the throne on right of conquest he is claiming the throne based on right of blood. 

And the targaryens are kings by popular acclaim. The high septon crowned aegon king and everyone accepted him. Plus the targaryens have a claim to the North since the last king willingly bent his knee in their own kingdom

[Daenerysthegreat]

14 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I mean your "indisputable Targaryen claim" was based on the right of conquest of their ancestors. 

Didn't you read the tommen option at all

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

Stannis has Targaryen blood. He is the grandson of Rhaelle who is Aegon V’s sister. He is also the brother of the last king. He also will have the second largest army after TWoW. I don’t think he will survive ADOS though. He is not really Azor Ahai. But Stannis definitely has one of the best claims to the IT.

[FictionIsntReal]

5 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

The issue is that the usurper is not the rightful king, Jaime Lannister murdered the rightful king. So there goes the baratheon claim.

Robert was proclaimed king prior to Aerys' death, and Jaime killing Aerys certainly doesn't negate that.

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The problem is that the joffrey can also calim to be the rightful king by right of conquest

No, Joffrey inherited the throne from Robert, there was no actual conquest. If Stannis had won Blackwater and Joffrey fled, but then later came back to retake the city, then that could be conquest.

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The feudal contract states that a king shall not practice tyranny and has to punish criminals

There's lots of petty crime below the attention of the king. As the king is above the seven kingdoms, he should preside over disputes between them, but this is not quite the same thing as crime generally.

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But the usurper didn't even lift a finger to punish tywin for elia, rhaenys and that pisswater boy's murder

A lot of people died during the sack, and unlike with Jaime & Aerys there wasn't someone walking in to see a dead body and someone with a bloody blade. Once Oberyn comes to KL and starts demanding justice for those specific tests it becomes incumbent on the regime to pin the blame to someone, but this is after Robert died (before then Oberyn was trying to raise a pro-Viserys rebellion which Jon Arryn had to deal with).

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A person can also become king by popular acclaim

That happened with Robert around the time of the trident. And Stannis inherits from him.

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There are three options for the rightful king

There are not three rival determinants, rather all are involved in succession. Someone may first reach the throne through conquest (like Aegon I) or acclaim (those selected by Great Councils, Robert around the Trident, Robb as King in the North). But AFTERWARD the crown is inherited by blood.

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2) Tommen(Right of conquest) 

Tommen didn't conquer anything. He inherited as brother of the previous king without legitimate children... like Stannis.

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Difference is stannis isn't claiming the throne on right of conquest he is claiming the throne based on right of blood.

So did the Targaryens after the Aegon I.

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And the targaryens are kings by popular acclaim

Not ARE. They WERE.

[Daenerysthegreat]

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

There's lots of petty crime below the attention of the king. As the king is above the seven kingdoms, he should preside over disputes between them, but this is not quite the same thing as crime generally.

 

Excuse me the rape and murder of an Royal princess and her toddler children is not considered a petty crime

[Daenerysthegreat]

10 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Stannis has Targaryen blood. He is the grandson of Rhaelle who is Aegon V’s sister. He is also the brother of the last king. He also will have the second largest army after TWoW. I don’t think he will survive ADOS though. He is not really Azor Ahai. But Stannis definitely has one of the best claims to the IT

Stannis is in the line of succesion, he doesn't have a claim. Dany and aegon come before him. 

[Lord Lannister]

17 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Didn't you read the tommen option at all

What about it? You're not making any sense at this point. On one hand you're saying hereditary monarchy based on right of conquest is legitimate in the form of the Targaryens, but then detail how it's not in the base of Robert's conquest with Stannis but somehow Tommen does have the right of conquest even though he inherited the crown from his brother though that doesn't apply to Stannis? 

Honestly, judging by this and other posts, I think you're taking your like of Daenerys way too far to the point you seem actively invested in tearing down fictional characters to prop her up. I enjoy speculating and discussing things as much as anyone else but maybe just take a deep breath and step back a bit. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

37 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

What about it? You're not making any sense at this point. On one hand you're saying hereditary monarchy based on right of conquest is legitimate in the form of the Targaryens, but then detail how it's not in the base of Robert's conquest with Stannis but somehow Tommen does have the right of conquest even though he inherited the crown from his brother though that doesn't apply to Stannis? 

 

Ok ill clarify things

1) Targaryens had zero calim to the iron Throne before aegon I because there was no iron throne. After they created the iron throne the line of succesion went through them. 

2) Tommen didn't inherit the throne according to stannis. He is also an usurper according to stannis. According to stannis, not me

3) Stannis can't use right of conquest and right if blood both to justify his claim. 

 

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Ok ill clarify things

1) Targaryens had zero calim to the iron Throne before aegon I because there was no iron throne. After they created the iron throne the line of succesion went through them. 

2) Tommen didn't inherit the throne according to stannis. He is also an usurper according to stannis. According to stannis, not me

3) Stannis can't use right of conquest and right if blood both to justify his claim. 

That's why he only uses right of blood, the right of conquest was Robert's, Stannis is his heir, so he has claim through right of blood. 

Similarly, Joffrey and Tommen have a claim through right of blood from Robert's right of conquest.

And Daenerys and Aegon VI have a claim through right of blood from Aegon's right of conquest.

What makes Stannis any different?

[Daenerysthegreat]

58 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

That's why he only uses right of blood, the right of conquest was Robert's, Stannis is his heir, so he has claim through right of blood. 

Similarly, Joffrey and Tommen have a claim through right of blood from Robert's right of conquest.

And Daenerys and Aegon VI have a claim through right of blood from Aegon's right of conquest.

What makes Stannis any different?

Ok I don't know if you have read the first book or not but I'm assuming you have.

Joffrey, myrcella and tommen are not the usurpers children, they are bastards born of incest between Jaime and cersei lannister. The usurper has not even sleepy with cersei since years.

The issue is that if stannis believes that the right of conquest is valid and the Targaryens have no claim. Then we can apply the same right of conquest and say that Joffrey and now tommen are the rightful kings since they won the battle of the blackwater and thus stannis has no claim.

I'll explain it in simple terms how the right of conquest would work.

1)Targaryens got the seven kingdoms through right of conquest. The targaryens were the rightful kings until king aerys ii

2)The usurper got the iron throne through right of conquest.The usurper's line are the rightful kings.

3)Joffrey  usurped the iron throne and held in the battle of the blackwater(It s in the second book) and thus he is the king by right of conquest. His line meaning tommen and myrcella are the rightful heirs

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Ok I don't know if you have read the first book or not but I'm assuming you have.

Joffrey, myrcella and tommen are not the usurpers children, they are bastards born of incest between Jaime and cersei lannister. The usurper has not even sleepy with cersei since years.

The issue is that if stannis believes that the right of conquest is valid and the Targaryens have no claim. Then we can apply the same right of conquest and say that Joffrey and now tommen are the rightful kings since they won the battle of the blackwater and thus stannis has no claim.

I'll explain it in simple terms how the right of conquest would work.

1)Targaryens got the seven kingdoms through right of conquest. The targaryens were the rightful kings until king aerys ii

2)The usurper got the iron throne through right of conquest.The usurper's line are the rightful kings.

3)Joffrey  usurped the iron throne and held in the battle of the blackwater(It s in the second book) and thus he is the king by right of conquest. His line meaning tommen and myrcella are the rightful heirs

Okay, thanks, I get your point now, tho I disagree with it, Joffrey and Tommen have a claim by blood (regardless of them not being Robert's children, the public perceives them to be) since they inherited the throne, they didn't conquer it, you can maybe say they have a claim by conquest to the Riverlands and the Stormlands, but they each got their throne from the previous king and had to do no battle to take it, Joffrey was even crowned before the WOT5K began, their claim to the throne is by blood and nothing more. Now, Stannis says that this claims are bogus and that he's the rightful king (and he's right) so he gathers up forces to kick the pretenders out and take back his throne, not to rule by conquest but to rule by blood. The Targaryens rule is inconsequential, legalistically Daenerys has a worse claim than Stannis, since the current monarchy is a Baratheon one, her power to rule resides in people believing the Targaryens to be the rightful rulers, so she can use that popular support to aid her conquest and rule by conquest, not by blood.

If the WOT5K was resolved with a legal battle and the truth came out, Stannis would be king, by right of blood and Daenerys wouldn't even be an option, as she's not a part of the Baratheon dynasty.

To put it in modern terms, let's imagine a country in which there are two ways to become president: popular vote and revolution say. Now, it's election time in this country and Candidate A won, but Candidate B committed fraud and got announced as the winer, Candidate A finds out about this and launches a letter campaign, but he's censored and his supporters persecuted and killed. So he goes underground and builds a resistance, trying to start a revolution, but Candidate B has the police at his control so he beats him and kills him. Candidate B is still not legitimate under this system, as he wasn't elected by popular vote and he started no revolution.

Similarly, Tommen and Joff don't have the right blood and didn't 'take' the throne by conquest, it was given to them.

 

[FictionIsntReal]

16 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

2) Tommen didn't inherit the throne according to stannis. He is also an usurper according to stannis. According to stannis, not me

He's a usurping false king in that he's a bastard falsely claiming to be Robert's son. He's not a conqueror like Robert or Aegon I.

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3) Stannis can't use right of conquest and right if blood both to justify his claim.

Why are those mutually exclusive? Robert was the rebel leader who was acclaimed king because his blood was the most royal among them. There were multiple civil wars before involving different claimants with Targaryen blood who tried to establish their position via military victory.

8 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

The usurper has not even sleepy with cersei since years.

Oh, he's been "sleepy" alright. Sleepy enough to be fooled by Cersei and not remember things the next morning.

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Then we can apply the same right of conquest and say that Joffrey and now tommen are the rightful kings since they won the battle of the blackwater and thus stannis has no claim.

Tommen didn't win anything, and Stannis is still fighting against that regime. Tommen & Joffrey both claimed the throne via inheritance, and Stannis (correctly) argues that inheritance was false, and that Stannis himself is the legitimate heir. Robert being acclaimed king ahead of all of Aerys' line precedes that.

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3)Joffrey  usurped the iron throne and held in the battle of the blackwater(It s in the second book) and thus he is the king by right of conquest.

One defense of a city does not equate to conquest. Joffrey did not acquire the throne like Robert did, he did it via claiming to be Robert's legitimate heir.

[Daenerysthegreat]

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He's a usurping false king in that he's a bastard falsely claiming to be Robert's son. He's not a conqueror like Robert or Aegon I.

Why are those mutually exclusive? Robert was the rebel leader who was acclaimed king because his blood was the most royal among them. There were multiple civil wars before involving different claimants with Targaryen blood who tried to establish their position via military victory.

 

The right of conquest is from joffrey. Tommen is just holding the throne, 

Due to right of conquest neither the targaryens nor stannis have any claim left. 

 

The difference is that house baratheon of King's Landing won the battle of the blackwater and defeated stannis in a war for the throne. So they are the Royal house

[Hrulj]

Targaryens are incestuous madmen that best serve westeros by not existing. 

[Lord Varys]

In a sense, Joff 'conquered the Iron Throne'. The Hand of the King entrusted by King Robert to arrange the coronation of a new king revealed that Joffrey wasn't a Baratheon at all, forcing the Queen Dowager to stage a coup to ensure Joffrey's ascension.

In a setting where military success determines or influences legitimacy, Stannis losing on the Blackwater dealt a considerable blow to his claim.

Overall, though, the Baratheon claim is pretty weak in general. Robert is a usurper who, apparently, failed to father a trueborn heir and to ensure a peaceful and orderly succession. The Baratheons could never count on the support of all their lords and knights to the same degree the average Targaryen king could. And this is rather remarkable considering Robert's rebel coalition was pretty powerful in 283 AC. But he and his Hand completely failed at keeping it together, just as they failed at integrating the (former) Targaryen loyalists into the new regime.

Just compare Robert's treatment of the Martells and others to how Jaehaerys I integrated both Maegor's former loyalists as well as the remnants of the Faith Militant into his new government.

[Daenerysthegreat]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In a sense, Joff 'conquered the Iron Throne'. The Hand of the King entrusted by King Robert to arrange the coronation of a new king revealed that Joffrey wasn't a Baratheon at all, forcing the Queen Dowager to stage a coup to ensure Joffrey's ascension.

In a setting where military success determines or influences legitimacy, Stannis losing on the Blackwater dealt a considerable blow to his claim.

 

Thats exactly what I have been trying to say. Stannis lost the blackwater his claim is as strong as that of the random blackfyre descendant. 

 

 

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Thats exactly what I have been trying to say. Stannis lost the blackwater his claim is as strong as that of the random blackfyre descendant. 

 

 

Wont matter if he takes the throne, and rids himself of Tommen. People will still follow him because he is next in line after tommen. Plus their wont be anyone else to make king (pretending aegon and dany are nowhere to be seen).

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Wont matter if he takes the throne, and rids himself of Tommen. People will still follow him because he is next in line after tommen. Plus their wont be anyone else to make king (pretending aegon and dany are nowhere to be seen).

Yes, Stannis has one of the strongest claims to IT. He was dynastically next in line for the current dynasty, the Baratheon dynasty. Aegon and Dany are invalidated because the Targaryens lost their claim to the IT because they were subdued. Stannis should be the next king but he will not. It will most likely be either Daenerys, Jon or Bran.