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Falcon2909

Who's "they" ?

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"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

Ned remembers holding Lyannas dead body while "they" had found him. My question is who are "they"?

One of "They" is Howland Reed. But it cannot include those already present in the same room as Ned & Lyannas body because they had already found him when he entered it. Those already present in the room must've been a midwife, a maester, a servant if you believe she gave birth.

So who were the people beside Howland Reed who found him? Youtuber In Deep geek suggests it was arthur dayne, as he'd agreed to let Ned meet Lyanna before killing himself (for breaking his kingsguard vows to Rhaegar). I don't agree or disagree with this.

Who do you think it might be?

Edited by Falcon2909

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I’ve essentially zero basis for this but I recently had the thought that the fight at the TOJ wasn’t about them showing up for Lyanna, but about what to do with Jon. Under this, I’d speculate that the “they” was Howland, the companions, and the Kingsguard.

More realistically, I think it may have been Howland and Wylla. Perhaps Wylla was sent with Ned after Ashara / the Daynes told him where to find Lyanna. Maybe she was already there to help Lyanna. Idk.

Back to wild speculation, I suggest this because when Ned recalled fighting at the TOJ and heard Lyanna calling, it was actually Vayon Poole’s voice and Ned was actually having a fever dream. So who’s to say that he remembered the order correctly?

Thus, I’d speculate that maybe Ned shows up, they let him go upstairs to see Lyanna, she dies, they all find him. He meets Jon and says he’s taking his nephew home. The Kingsguard disagree. Fight ensues.

Occam’s Razor says this is too complicated and it probably happened as Ned dreamed it, but I doubt we ever get the real answers. So until then, we can speculate and have fun with it. 

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2 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Ned remembers holding Lyannas dead body while "they" had found him. My question is who are "they"?

One of "They" is Howland Reed. But it cannot include those already present in the same room as Ned & Lyannas body because they had already found him when he entered it. Those already present in the room must've been a midwife, a maester, a servant if you believe she gave birth.

So who were the people beside Howland Reed who found him? Youtuber In Deep geek suggests it was arthur dayne, as he'd agreed to let Ned meet Lyanna before killing himself (for breaking his kingsguard vows to Rhaegar). I don't agree or disagree with this.

Who do you think it might be?

"They" are Howland Reed and Willam Dustin.  Dustin "never lived to ride away", but he did not die right away.  He remained behind at the Tower of Joy, at a house with a red door, and eventually died there.  That's why there were only 8 cairns at the Tower of Joy, even though, if you consider Lyanna's body, Willam's body, and the others, it ought to add up to 9 cairns.   That's why Ned was unable to return Willam's bones to his very resentful widow, but only the horse he was too injured to ride.  Not only did Willam live on for 5 years after his supposed death, but when he died nobody was available to make a cairn to protect his bones.  A certain very blonde girl has fading memories of her early life here with Willam.  (Disclaimer - it's only a theory - arguments welcome, but no outrage please).

Edited by Mister Smikes

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19 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

"They" are Howland Reed and Willam Dustin.  Dustin "never lived to ride away", but he did not die right away.  He remained behind at the Tower of Joy, at a house with a red door, and eventually died there.  That's why there were only 8 cairns at the Tower of Joy, even though, if you consider Lyanna's body, Willam's body, and the others, it ought to add up to 9 cairns.   

No, it should not. Ned brought Lyanna's bones back to Winterfell, so a cairn for her at ToJ doesn't add up.
There is no evidence Dustin lived any longer than the other dead men.

19 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's why Ned was unable to return Willam's bones to his very resentful widow. 

Ned didn't return the bones of any of his dead comrades. Which was not particularly unusual - almost all men who die in battle during a war don't get their bones returned. Thats basic logistics.

Returning the bones of the dead is mostly something that happens in peacetime (ie when casualties are rare and notable) or to noncombatants (including prisoner/hostages). Or most commonly of all as political gestures of reconciliation. 
Lady Dustin's resentfulness, if true, likely largely stems from giving away her virginity to Brandon yet still missing out on Brandon, or even his backup. She and her father schemed for Winterfell, and failed.

30 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

 A certain very blonde girl has fading memories of her early life here with Willam.  (Disclaimer - it's only a theory - arguments welcome, but no outrage please).

That is a different Willem, a well known WIllem with a court position under Aerys. He was also much older.

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21 minutes ago, corbon said:

No, it should not. Ned brought Lyanna's bones back to Winterfell, so a cairn for her at ToJ doesn't add up.

He brought her bones to Winterfell, not her rotting corpse.  Until the bones are ready for transport, a cairn is necessary to protect the body.  

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There is no evidence Dustin lived any longer than the other dead men.

Sure.  If you ignore the clues.  But I'm sure you have a better theory for the mysterious "they".

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Ned didn't return the bones of any of his dead comrades. Which was not particularly unusual - almost all men who die in battle during a war don't get their bones returned. Thats basic logistics.

Dustin was a Lord.  He was not a common soldier, nor even a common knight.  His place was in the Barrows of Barrowtown, just as Lyanna's place was in the Crypts of Winterfell.  

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 Lady Dustin's resentfulness, if true, likely largely stems from giving away her virginity to Brandon yet still missing out on Brandon, or even his backup. She and her father schemed for Winterfell, and failed.

She is also resentful about the bones.  To deny that is to argue against the text.

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That is a different Willem, a well known WIllem with a court position under Aerys. He was also much older.

I know there's another Willem.  Danny conflates her fading memories with Viserys' stories, and thinks that her Willam is the same as Viserys' Willem.  But, you know, there's that pesky problem of lemons not growing on Braavos.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

He brought her bones to Winterfell, not her rotting corpse.  Until the bones are ready for transport, a cairn is necessary to protect the body.  

Nope.

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Sure.  If you ignore the clues.  But I'm sure you have a better theory for the mysterious "they".

Any theory is better. 
Mine is that there were probably a small number of un-named non-combatants/servants or similar at ToJ - maybe a cook, maybe not, maybe a Maester, maybe not, probably a wetnurse (Wylla), maybe a midwife, maybe not, or maybe some person or people that filled multiple of those roles.

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Dustin was a Lord.  He was not a common soldier, nor even a common knight.  His place was in the Barrows of Barrowtown, just as Lyanna's place was in the Crypts of Winterfell.  

So? Find a single incident of a Lord's bones being returned after falling in battle that is not politically connected. You can't. There isn't one. Every single instance we hear of is one of:
 - a non combatant (eg Lyanna)
 - a prisoner or hostage ie not in battle (eg the Lannister cousins, the Manderly heir)
 - a political statement of reconciliation (eg Lewyn Martell)
 or similar
And even those, sometimes don't happen.


Not every Lord that falls in battle is returned. Its logistically impossible

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She is also resentful about the bones.  To deny that is to argue against the text.

She seems to be yes. I'm not arguing the text doesn't say that. I'm pointing out that the text includes deceptions, and that people, including well written characters, don't always admit (sometimes even to themselves) the accurate reasons for their feelings. Lady Barbara also indirectly gives us other reasons that might account for her supposed feeling. (And some people, I remain unconvinced either way, think she may be faking her resentment to help convince the Bolton faction of her reliability while secretly she's still a Stark loyalist)

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I know there's another Willem.  Danny conflates her fading memories with Viserys' stories, and thinks that her Willam is the same as Viserys' Willem. 

So does Stannis, Robert and Cressen...
I don't think they have a problem with childhood memories and infantile confusion.

You have also ignored the age issue. Dany's memories in the red door house are of an old man. Willem Dustin would have been still under 30. Willem Darry was Maester at Arms in Kings Landing from when Rhaegar was a boy.

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But, you know, there's that pesky problem of lemons not growing on Braavos.

No, there isn't. Thats been shown again and again and again. There is no issue at all with a single lemon tree growing in a rich household in Bravos. 

Edited by corbon

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Eddard GoT 10 

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

1. seven vs. three.
2. Ned’s wraiths ?

….

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

1. Seven vs. three.

2. Only two lived to ride away.

Two of the seven lived to ride away? Did some walk or stay?

3. This is a dream of a dream.*

Eddard GoT 9


Ned began to drag himself through the mud, gritting his teeth at the agony in his leg. It seemed to take years. Faces watched from candlelit windows, and people began to emerge from alleys and doors, but no one moved to help.

Littlefinger and the City Watch found him there in the street, cradling Jory Cassel's body in his arms.

Does this appear like a very emotional reaction to jorys death? Cradling Jory like his own child or sibling?
1. Seemed to take years to get to Jory.
2. Found him there.
Is this a frame story of Lyanna? Are all the questions we have of the past reflected in the plot/actions of future characters/descendants?

….

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather.

The bones going North of Jory Cassel.

Look up castles as a chess term. Here’s what “castling into” means.

castling into it 
A situation where one side castles and a result is that the king is in more danger at the destination than on the initial square, either immediately or because lines and diagonals can be more readily opened against it.
 
"Why would anyone kill Jory?"-Bran to Rob Stark.
 
Now think of castling and Casterly Rock. What may that mean for Aerys or Rheagar?
 
He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. "I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.
 
Casterly Rock or
Castling Rook?
 
*3 This is a dream of a dream.
We are shown examples of dreams but not as we know them. The dreamers are in another’s mind. Usually an animal. We know it is possible to “worg” a human. How would it appear if someone attempted to “worg” you wile sleeping?
 

The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

Ned was half-asleep when the footsteps came down the hall. At first he thought he dreamt them; it had been so long since he had heard anything but the sound of his own voice. 
 

We also have the prologue of ADoD with six-skins. Can someone exist worging from one body to another? Why do Stark crypts have iron swords bared on their statues, a sign that is usually reserved for denying guest right? 
Why does the Hound teach mercy to the heart and Bron gives mercy to the brain? Why does the author choose words like worms or insects to describe when internal organs become external or shadows and magic?

I know I should just give what I currently hold as an answer but I still have a lot of work and reading to do. 

There is a reason it takes years to write each book. One could take as much time or more to Read them. It’s not necessary to, but you may find a different version and reason for events that grows in its complexity.  

I could be wrong. I hope I am. It’s the joy of the discovery that keeps me reading.
Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

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9 hours ago, corbon said:

Nope.

Is that what you say when you have no counterargument.

It won't do.   When long distances are involved the Westerosi tradition is to transport bones.  Obviously you can't do that right away.  Riding around with a rotting corpse tied to a horse can be unpleasant.

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So? Find a single incident of a Lord's bones being returned after falling in battle that is not politically connected. You can't.

That's REALLY moving the goalpost.  If I came up with an example, you'd just add another qualification to your challenge.

Lady Dustin is upset that Ned did not return her husband's bones.  

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There isn't one. Every single instance we hear of is one of:
 - a non combatant (eg Lyanna)
 - a prisoner or hostage ie not in battle (eg the Lannister cousins, the Manderly heir)
 - a political statement of reconciliation (eg Lewyn Martell)
 or similar

So basically, we've got lots of examples, and you have a million excuses for saying they don't count.   The text would have to be ten times as long and ten times as filled with trivial details to answer all your objections.

Keeping your vassals loyal and happy is can be a "political statement of reconciliation".  If Lady Dustin is upset about the failure to return the bones, then why not send for the bones?

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And even those, sometimes don't happen.

Lots of factors are considered, I'm sure.  One of the factors Ned might consider is the wishes of the family.  In Jory Cassell's case, he considered Jory Cassell's own wishes.

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Not every Lord that falls in battle is returned. Its logistically impossible

Trasnsporting Willams bones, to appease his widow, is not logistically impossible.

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She seems to be yes. I'm not arguing the text doesn't say that. I'm pointing out that the text includes deceptions,

You told me I had "no evidence".  If I had no evidence, you would not need to go to such lengths to explain the evidence away.  But like I said, it's only a theory.  I never said I had absolute proof.  So of course you will be able to find ways around it if you want to.

The OP asked for theories and I gave mine.  Maybe you should calm down a bit.  Like I said, it is only a theory.

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You have also ignored the age issue. Dany's memories in the red door house are of an old man. Willem Dustin would have been still under 30. Willem Darry was Maester at Arms in Kings Landing from when Rhaegar was a boy.

I'm aware of no evidence that Willem Dustin was still under 30 at the TOJ.  He could have easily been 40.  Or 50.  And Dany's memories come from maybe 5 years later.  That's more than enough to make him "grey" in Dany's memories, especially with the stress of a severe illness to deal with.  The adjective "grey" is the only evidence of old age that I'm aware of, and can happen to folks in their 30s or even 20s.

The 2 could be very different of course.  But Dany only remembers one of them.  The other is just a name from Viserys' stories.  

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No, there isn't. Thats been shown again and again and again. There is no issue at all with a single lemon tree growing in a rich household in Bravos. 

Dude.  Stop raging.  Learn to respect the right of others to disagree.  Nobody is under any obligation to be convinced by your arguments no matter how you many times you present them.  And it is not as though people have not argued back (again and again and again). 

Moreover, GRRM himself does not seem to sympathize with your outrage, to say the very least:

Proof that the Lemon Tree is Significant - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

 

Edited by Mister Smikes

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11 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's why there were only 8 cairns at the Tower of Joy, even though, if you consider Lyanna's body, Willam's body, and the others, it ought to add up to 9 cairns. 

Lyanna’s body was brought back to Winterfell and buried in the crypt. That’s why there’s not a cairn for her. 

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

It won't do.   When long distances are involved the Westerosi tradition is to transport bones.  Obviously you can't do that right away.  Riding around with a rotting corpse tied to a horse can be unpleasant.

We are not told about said traditions tho, but nonetheless your argument is very good.

One could argue anyway, that Ned sent her body in a ship, while he went to Starfall, king's landing and then headed home.

 

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13 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I’d speculate that maybe Ned shows up, they let him go upstairs to see Lyanna, she dies, they all find him. He meets Jon and says he’s taking his nephew home. The Kingsguard disagree. Fight ensues.

Wow, I like this. Makes sense in many ways.

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20 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

says he’s taking his nephew home. The Kingsguard disagree. Fight ensues.

I vote in favor only if this scenario involves tossing baby Jon around like a (American) football.

18 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He brought her bones to Winterfell, not her rotting corpse.  Until the bones are ready for transport, a cairn is necessary to protect the body.

They didn't have airplanes to quickly transport a corpse before it rotted.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

maybe a Maester, maybe not

Maesters are assigned by the citadel to castles. The Tower of Joy was a sort of secret hideout which the Citadel wouldn't be sending anyone to.

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9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

It won't do.   When long distances are involved the Westerosi tradition is to transport bones.  Obviously you can't do that right away. 

Yes, you can. Especially when you are taking the time to pull down a tower and build 8 cairns. Its called boiling.

And sometimes the westerosi tradition is to return bones. Not all times. We don;t have details of which times, or why. 

It remains a fact that we know of many many Lords dying in battle and only a few who's bones are returned to their families. Your statments are your belief, and confirm to parts of the text, but go well beyond the textual confirmation. 

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That's REALLY moving the goalpost.  If I came up with an example, you'd just add another qualification to your challenge.

I didn't move the goalposts, you did. 

<shrug> You made a statement (several), you can't back it up. Some Lord's bones are returned. Some family member's bones are returned. Some fighters are returned . But others are not. We aren't told why. You've made blanket statements that they 'always' are, but thats not what we see. I've given a reasonable and possible explanation that explains why some are and some are not, and I expect even within that the exigencies of situation modify observances. My explanation may not be entirely correct, but its at least as correct as your blanket statements, more so in fact as it explains both the returnees and the non-returnees.

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If Lady Dustin is upset about the failure to return the bones,

If indeed. Does she express this as the cause of her upset? She mentions that Ned brought his sister's bones back, and that her husband never returned as he promised. 
I don't see that the lack of bones is her issue though. I think her issues revolve around missing out on Brandon, and then Ned, and then losing her husband to Ned's war after only 6 months. She has no children. No-one to leave an inheritance to, nothing of her will remain when she dies. And thats Stark fault, threefold, in her mind.
Did she express exactly how upset about this she is to Ned? We have no indication she did. Nor any that she ever showed a lack of loyalty before Ned's death. So thee is no 'political reconciliation' need indicated here. 

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then why not send for the bones?

Because Ned doesn't want the world to know about the ToJ. He doesn't want the world to know that Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower were all at this lonely forgotten outpost. That would lead to serious and dangerous questions.

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Trasnsporting Willams bones, to appease his widow, is not logistically impossible.

In the exigencies of the moment, yes it is. If Willam, then why not Ryswell, Thull, Glover etc. And if them, why not Dayne, Whent and Hightower. Do they deserve any less respect? DO their families?
He's got him and Howland, and possibly Wylla and one or two others. His sister's bones may be a promise, but the rest he doesn't have the logistics available right now, nor is there the need.

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The OP asked for theories and I gave mine.  Maybe you should calm down a bit.  Like I said, it is only a theory. 
...
Dude.  Stop raging. 
...
your outrage

It interesting that disagreeing with you and pointing out flaws in your theories and arguments, or just making my arguments, is angry, raging and outrageous to you.

You must be very special.

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I'm aware of no evidence that Willem Dustin was still under 30 at the TOJ.  He could have easily been 40.  Or 50. 

He had both an Uncle and a great-uncle that he could have sent off to war in his place. He was married less than 6 months. 

So yeah, there is evidence he was young-ish. Maybe not hard proof, but significant evidence. He wasn't 40 or 50, not with a great-uncle fit to ride off to war in his place.
There is no evidence in any way shape or form that Willam Dustin wasn't a young man.
Evidence that Willem Darry was an old man, is not evidence that Willam Dustin was older, just because you want to conflate the two of them.

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And Dany's memories come from maybe 5 years later.  That's more than enough to make him "grey" in Dany's memories, especially with the stress of a severe illness to deal with.  The adjective "grey" is the only evidence of old age that I'm aware of, and can happen to folks in their 30s or even 20s.

 

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She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. 

Willem Darry (nor Willem Dustin) can't have been half blind as Master-at-Arms in KL (or as Ned's combat companion). But "half-blind" is exactly what commonly happens as age overtakes us...

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 No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather,

So lets see.
Old. Grey. Wrinkled. Half blind. 

Sure, Dany's Willem was a young man. Ned's battle companion. These are all just coincidental due to his illness. Because your theory wants him to be. :huh:

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The 2 could be very different of course.  But Dany only remembers one of them.  The other is just a name from Viserys' stories.  

As I've already pointed out (and you've conveniently ignored), Stannis and co (which means all of westerios, really) know that Willem Darry, former Master at Arms in KL, who held that senior post when Rhaegar was a boy, was the one took Viserys and Dany from Dragonstone to exile in Essos. This is not just coming from Dany and Viserys.

Further, Willem Darry is a signature to the secret Pact with Dorne. With Prince Oberyn Martell. You don't think Oberyn Martell might have known the Maester at Arms of the Red Keep, whose brother was on the Kingsguard?

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Learn to respect the right of others to disagree. 

You're allowed to disagree with me. I'm allowed to disagree with you I'm also allowed to point out the data that doesn't fit your theories and how bad your arguments are. 

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Once again, it doesn't say what you claim it says.
All GRRM said is that someone noting that lemon trees are not native to Bravos is perceptive. And that yes, the lemon tree is significant for some reason
That doesn't mean it can't have grown in a rich man's garden in Bravos. 
Its likely something to do with the Pact of Bravos.

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Wow, I like this. Makes sense in many ways.

However it is directly contrary to Ned's dream of the ToJ, which was not just a fever dream, but an old dream from his past, never contradicted, and much of it was 'in the dream as in life'.

Edited by corbon

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1 minute ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Maesters are assigned by the citadel to castles. The Tower of Joy was a sort of secret hideout which the Citadel wouldn't be sending anyone to.

Indeed. Not a "ToJ Maester", certainly. But that doesn't mean that a Maester couldn't have been present. He could have been sent or fetched from Starfall or somewhere else for example, or independent (some people suggest Marwyn).

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

He doesn't want the world to know that Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower were all at this lonely forgotten outpost.

That's already public knowledge, although I've had to argue with someone about that here before. The World of Ice and Fire speaks of the remaining kingsguard all dying in combat with Ned:

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He [Arthur Dayne] died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat

Someone tried to argue the whole thing is being indicated to be a rumor, although it's just the single combat. As to the exact location, that seems to be more vague in terms of public knowledge. Barbry thinks of her husband's bones as just being in the red mountains of Dorne rather than a specific place. However, the building of cairns is supposed to serve as a marker, so this isn't as secret as the location of Renly's body (or Genghis Khan's, for that matter).

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Indeed. Not a "ToJ Maester", certainly. But that doesn't mean that a Maester couldn't have been present. He could have been sent or fetched from Starfall or somewhere else for example, or independent (some people suggest Marwyn).

It's not impossible, but the Maester writing The World of Ice and Fire doesn't seem to be aware of this, nor have we gotten such an indication from any other maester. Starfall would be one of the more obvious sources, but one would think they'd keep their own maester on hand, and the Lord of Starfall himself doesn't appear to have been present at ToJ. Marwyn is an academic rather than assigned maester, and has a lot of leeway to travel, but he's more often found in low places where he can learn things he can't elsewhere. Rhaegar & his companions would have no particular reason to seek Marwyn out. The maester Rhaegar does seem to have confided in was Aemon of Castle Black, but notice that Aemon NEVER mentions Marwyn even though Qyburn, Mirri Maz Duur & Rodrik the Reader all do.

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2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's already public knowledge, although I've had to argue with someone about that here before. The World of Ice and Fire speaks of the remaining kingsguard all dying in combat with Ned:


Someone tried to argue the whole thing is being indicated to be a rumor, although it's just the single combat. As to the exact location, that seems to be more vague in terms of public knowledge.

Probably me. I still believe that that is a mistake by authors familiar with all of GRRM's source material and not caught by GRRM or the editors (its not even in a Rhaegar, Lyanna or ToJ section). There is no other indication anyone else knows of it, and no sources to tell of it other than Ned or Howland, neither of who talk.
Its very much the clear and reasonable knowledge of a reader of GRRM's material, not of a Maester at Robert's Court.

At best it is supposition by a dry academic who has synthesised a rumour or two.

Its also possible that its something Ned told the Daynes when returning Arthur's sword.
"He died nobly, with his brothers". 
It seems unlike Ned to offer that much dangerous information unnecessarily. But its possible, in that circumstance, to those people. And possible that the Maester who wrote TWoIaF managed to find out those words.

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Barbry thinks of her husband's bones as just being in the red mountains of Dorne rather than a specific place. However, the building of cairns is supposed to serve as a marker, so this isn't as secret as the location of Renly's body (or Genghis Khan's, for that matter).

Cairns merely protect a body, offer respect to the fallen. They generally don't advertise who is in them.

Marker cairns are not graves. Different sort of cairn for a different reason. And they usually still don't indicate what they mark, that knowledge often comes from outside.

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It's not impossible, but the Maester writing The World of Ice and Fire doesn't seem to be aware of this,

Of course not. How could he? He doesn't seem to be aware that Ned found Lyanna either. 

And even if he were aware of those things, I doubt he'd record the presence of incidentals.

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nor have we gotten such an indication from any other maester.

Likewise.

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Starfall would be one of the more obvious sources, but one would think they'd keep their own maester on hand, and the Lord of Starfall himself doesn't appear to have been present at ToJ. Marwyn is an academic rather than assigned maester, and has a lot of leeway to travel, but he's more often found in low places where he can learn things he can't elsewhere.

Agreed and agreed. The point isn't that these maesters were there, but that a maester, possibly one of these maesters, might have been. And none of your arguments negate this point.

The question after all is "who is the 'they'?"

Frankly, I'm more inclined to no maester being there. I'm not sure if Rhaegar, or Arthur, or anyone else had such an opinion, but the 'grey rats' have their own agendas and secrets - some of them at least. If I were Rhaegar and Lyanna, hiding from both sides in a civil war, I'd have trusted to a midwife ahead of a maester, in preparation for a child to be born.

But others think its a reasonable possibility and I can't see anything to say they are wrong.

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Rhaegar & his companions would have no particular reason to seek Marwyn out. The maester Rhaegar does seem to have confided in was Aemon of Castle Black, but notice that Aemon NEVER mentions Marwyn even though Qyburn, Mirri Maz Duur & Rodrik the Reader all do.

Yup. I'm no fan of the Marwyn at ToJ theory. But I also can't dismiss it as a possibility, much as I'd like to.

Edited by corbon

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14 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes, you can. Especially when you are taking the time to pull down a tower and build 8 cairns. Its called boiling.

Or he could pull some silent sisters out of his pocket and have them use their special chemicals.  Or he could pickle her in a cask of strong liquor.  Or he could burn her and bring home the ashes and bone fragments.  Or he could store her body in an empty tomb in the local crypt, if there is one.  There are all kinds of possibilities.  There are all kinds of ways around this "clue".  

Did you miss the part where I said it was only a theory?  When did I claim I could provide absolute proof of any of it?  The vague fuzzy clues I cite, which might plausibly point to x, y, and z, don't absolutely 100% necessarily point to x, y and z.

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<shrug> You made a statement (several), you can't back it up. Some Lord's bones are returned. Some family member's bones are returned. Some fighters are returned . But others are not. We aren't told why. You've made blanket statements that they 'always' are, but thats not what we see.

I never said any such thing.  Your hostility is making a donkey of you.  

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If indeed. Does she express this as the cause of her upset? She mentions that Ned brought his sister's bones back, and that her husband never returned as he promised. 
I don't see that the lack of bones is her issue though. I think her issues revolve around missing out on Brandon, and then Ned, and then losing her husband to Ned's war after only 6 months. She has no children. No-one to leave an inheritance to, nothing of her will remain when she dies. And thats Stark fault, threefold, in her mind.
Did she express exactly how upset about this she is to Ned? We have no indication she did. Nor any that she ever showed a lack of loyalty before Ned's death. So thee is no 'political reconciliation' need indicated here. 

She seemed bitter about the bones to me.  Still does.  Could this be wrong?  Sure.  Your constant demands for absolute proof are absolutely boring.

The OP asks who "they" are.  For those who demand absolute proof, the only possible answer to this is "insufficient data".  Maybe we should just say "insufficient data", call in the mods, and lock the thread.   Is that what you want?  Or are you only triggered by theories that touch on Lemongate?

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It interesting that disagreeing with you and pointing out flaws in your theories and arguments, or just making my arguments, is angry, raging and outrageous to you.

Sorry, but you come across as angry.  For example, no points or arguments were involved when you  claimed to have refuted Lemongate "again and again and again".  It sounded more like you were venting frustration at the thought that you might have to refute it a 4th time.   Your frustration is understandable, since I have no doubt you lost the arguments the other 3 times as well.  But it's up to you to cope.  I don't need your attitude.  And I did not really come here to rehash all the lemongate arguments.  I just came her to propose one possible answer to who "they" might be, from a lemongate inspired perspective.

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He had both an Uncle and a great-uncle that he could have sent off to war in his place. He was married less than 6 months.

So yeah, there is evidence he was young-ish. Maybe not hard proof, but significant evidence. He wasn't 40 or 50, not with a great-uncle fit to ride off to war in his place.

Due to the rules of primogeniture, it is perfectly normal for the heir to a great house to have an uncle who is younger than he is. 

It is even possible to have great uncles who are younger than you are.  Edwin Frey, current heir to House Frey, is a man at least in his early 20s, if not older.  He has (at least) 5 great uncles who are younger than he is, and a possible 6th great uncle just about to be born, who will be over 20 years younger than he is.  I'm not even counting all the younger great aunts.

Admittedly, the Frey family tree is a bit extreme.  One does not normally expect a great uncle to be 21+ years younger than his great nephew.   There is no need to go that far here.  A great uncle that is only 10 years older than his great nephew might be more in the range of the normal extremes of family trees, since it is hardly impossible for a man of wealth and power to sire two sons 30+ years apart.  Dustin's great uncle fought in the war of the 5-penny kings, which was 25 years before Robert's Rebellion.  He's obviously no spring chicken.  He could be 65 and Dustin could be 50.  Or Dustin could be 35 if you really prefer that, and wasted by disease by age 40.   Or maybe the Great Uncle is a fit 75.  I'm not sure how rational Lady Dustin is being on how old is too old to ride to war, and the dude did not end up riding to war in any event.  Lady Dustin just did not want to lose her husband.

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There is no evidence in any way shape or form that Willam Dustin wasn't a young man.  Evidence that Willem Darry was an old man, is not evidence that Willam Dustin was older, just because you want to conflate the two of them.

Dude.  I never offered his age as a point in favor of my theory.   This is YOUR argument, and it is up to YOU to establish your own premise.  If you think you can prove Dustin was under 30, keep on trying.  Looks like you are going to fail.  I don't have to prove anything, and I never offered to prove anything.  Your points might have had some small weight if you did not overpush them.  

Could Dustin be under 30?  Yes he could.  Could my theory be wrong?  Yes it could.  It's just a theory.  On the other hand, Dustin might be over 40 and my theory might be right.

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Willem Darry (nor Willem Dustin) can't have been half blind as Master-at-Arms in KL (or as Ned's combat companion). But "half-blind" is exactly what commonly happens as age overtakes us...

Half-blind can also happen when sickness overtakes us.  He was half blind when roaring from his sick-bed.  He does not seem half-blind in the earlier vision.

14 hours ago, corbon said:

As I've already pointed out (and you've conveniently ignored), Stannis and co (which means all of westerios, really) know that Willem Darry, former Master at Arms in KL, who held that senior post when Rhaegar was a boy, was the one took Viserys and Dany from Dragonstone to exile in Essos. This is not just coming from Dany and Viserys.

So?  My hypothesis is that Viserys' Willem in Braavos and Dany's Willam in Dorne might be 2 different people.    I never suggested that one existed and the other was a myth.

As for the Dany born on Dragonstone, that could have been  a different little girl.  Who died.  Like most of Rhaella's children.

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Further, Willem Darry is a signature to the secret Pact with Dorne. With Prince Oberyn Martell. You don't think Oberyn Martell might have known the Maester at Arms of the Red Keep, whose brother was on the Kingsguard?

Yes, I know.  There are two Willams.  Dustin and Darry.  The one in Braavos, who signed the pact with Dorne, was Darry.  So what?

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Once again, it doesn't say what you claim it says.

I never claimed it said anything.  I just linked to it.  But I'll link to it again since it seems to make you so mad.  Whee!  Go on.  Argue with it some more.

(Spoilers All) GRRM on Dany and Lemon trees in Braavos. - Imgur

 

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Are we sure the person killed on the Trident was Rhaegar, and not someone else dressed in his armour? 

Perhaps one of the dead was a bs death, like that of the Hound. And Robert wanted or needed to claim he killed Rhaegar, like Theon with Bran and Rickon.

Mostly here for the grammar, wondering where who'res go.

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