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Who's "they" ?


Falcon2909

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On 9/29/2021 at 5:10 AM, Falcon2909 said:

Who do you think it might be?

Howland + Waila (probably) + any other servant ( these people even need help to get dressed. of course there are servants!) 

and ( by long shot) Ashara + baby Aegon ( if we'd like to subscribe to the "princes in the tower" theory!) :D

or (another long shot!) kingsgaurd(s) before death or still alive!!!:P

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16 hours ago, corbon said:

Probably me. I still believe that that is a mistake by authors familiar with all of GRRM's source material and not caught by GRRM or the editors (its not even in a Rhaegar, Lyanna or ToJ section). There is no other indication anyone else knows of it, and no sources to tell of it other than Ned or Howland, neither of who talk.

As I already told you then, Ned DID talk to Bran about how Howland helped him against Arthur Dayne, without giving any indication this was a secret, and Bran simply chose not to ask further questions because he didn't want to make Ned any more sad. You are ignoring the text in favor of your own head-canon that Ned & Howland refused to speak of it, without any actual evidence for that position.

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At best it is supposition by a dry academic who has synthesised a rumour or two.

It's stated as a fact, with just the single combat referred to as a rumow. And it's public knowledge there were those three KG unaccounted for up to that point.

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It seems unlike Ned to offer that much dangerous information unnecessarily.

It's unlike your headcanon of Ned, which bears no resemblance to the man who freely tells Bran about Arthur Dayne without any indication this is supposed to be a secret. Barbry also knows her husband died in the red mountains of Dorne, and there's no indication Ned treated that fact as some sort of secret she had to ferret out somehow. Ashara is also known (leaving fan speculation aside) to have jumped from her tower after Ned brought Arthur's sword back to her. That implies she learned more than a minimal amount.

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But its possible, in that circumstance, to those people. And possible that the Maester who wrote TWoIaF managed to find out those words.

He doesn't give any indication how he found that out, he just treats it as public information.

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Cairns merely protect a body, offer respect to the fallen. They generally don't advertise who is in them.

It's true they don't have names like headstones, but it's public information that 3 KG and 5 of Ned's companions all died in that region, and only Lyanna's bones were returned. Someone who stumbled across that number of cairns in that region would be able to make a pretty good guess who the set of people were.

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Of course not. How could he? He doesn't seem to be aware that Ned found Lyanna either.

It's not intended to be a completely comprehensive history of that time. He even says "The events of Robert's Rebellion are revealed elsewhere and need no retelling". He doesn't mention that Ned went to relieve the siege at Storm's End, because the section on Robert's rebellion ends with the Trident. But Lyanna is known to have been betrothed to Robert, and Robert later marries Cersei, and everyone knows that's because Lyanna was discovered to be dead.

9 hours ago, Walda said:

Are we sure the person killed on the Trident was Rhaegar, and not someone else dressed in his armour?

Yes, GRRM has said Rhaegar's body was cremated.

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48 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As I already told you then, Ned DID talk to Bran about how Howland helped him against Arthur Dayne, without giving any indication this was a secret, and Bran simply chose not to ask further questions because he didn't want to make Ned any more sad. You are ignoring the text in favor of your own head-canon that Ned & Howland refused to speak of it, without any actual evidence for that position.

And if the conversation wasn't interrupted, I probably already pointed out that Ned said nothing of any new importance to Bran. That Ned killed Dayne (or was present) was already publicly infer-able (and clearly inferred by some) by his returning the sword Dawn to the Daynes. And that Howland was present is no secret either - HR was always with Ned during and in the immediate aftermath of the war.
Note that Ned did not say anything about the other Kingsguard, nor that all his other companions died in that fight, or exactly where it was, or anything about Lyanna, or Jon.

You don't keep secrets by advertising them, you keep secrets by allowing people to not even notice they are there. 

The evidence that Ned didn't talk is multifold
First we have his reaction to Cat and Robert, when they tried to discuss things from that time - Jon's origins and Jon's wetnurse.
Then we have the 'rumours' about him slaying Dayne in single combat - they came from his soldiers who weren't there, not from him. Note all the rumours about that time are inaccurate, because they come from people who weren't involved, haven;t been told the truth, and make guesses based on limited information.
Also note, it is in fact you who ignore the text. You assume Bran didn't ask more questions, because he didn't want to make Ned's sadder. But thats not what the text says. The text says that Ned would say no more. Thats not 'didn't say any more', as in stopped talking because it was enough, but wouldn't say any more, which infers that that there was some pressure (from Bran) to talk some more. there was a refusal to talk more, not a just a end of the talking.

48 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's unlike your headcanon of Ned, which bears no resemblance to the man who freely tells Bran about Arthur Dayne without any indication this is supposed to be a secret.

Its not. That part at least. Ned gave that up when he delivered Dawn to the Daynes. But its not enough to infer anything significant from. Ned went south to finish off the war. Finding Dayne somewhere and killing him is just part of that. Dayne had to be somewhere. Its finding Dayne with Whent and Hightower thats a bit more significant, begs further questions. And you'll note that Ned never once even signals that.

I'll also note that it is incorrect to state that Ned "freely" spoke of Arthur Dayne to Bran. We didn't speak 'freely' - that telling anything and everything without reservations. Instead he spoke "limitedly" of Dayne, and then wouldn't speak more.

If we are going to put up headcannons against each other, I'll back mine of Ned which follows the text in sees him never once speak of the ToJ to anyone, never tell any important details to anyone (only peripheral details which are already easily inferred by public knowledge), close down conversations touching upon it with Cat, Robert and (less obviously, but still emphatically) Bran., vs yours which seemingly has Ned tell anything to anyone (despite the text) but still sees all the rumours making the rounds as completely inaccurate, and no one in-universe wondering why 3KG were together in the middle of nowhere doing nothing and not guarding any of the royal family...

48 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Barbry also knows her husband died in the red mountains of Dorne, and there's no indication Ned treated that fact as some sort of secret she had to ferret out somehow.

Its not. Her husband had to die somewhere, and Ned went south with him. You'll note that again, Ned didn't give away anything that signals the secret of ToJ. No information about how Dustin died, no information about who he died with, no information about why he died, only a broad regional location of his grave.

48 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Ashara is also known (leaving fan speculation aside) to have jumped from her tower after Ned brought Arthur's sword back to her. That implies she learned more than a minimal amount.

It implies lots of things. None of which need be correct. And none of which are under Ned's control other than the simple, honourable fact of returning Dawn to the Daynes (not to Ashara).
Heck, its far from certain that she even did suicide. Its a 3rd party rumour, no body and not spoken by anyone present.

48 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's true they don't have names like headstones, but it's public information that 3 KG and 5 of Ned's companions all died in that region, and only Lyanna's bones were returned. Someone who stumbled across that number of cairns in that region would be able to make a pretty good guess who the set of people were.

I don't think it is in the slightest public information this way.
Even if is not a mistake in AWoIaF and the maester writing it did ferret out that information somehow, its still a tiny, incomplete (doesn't mention Ned's 5 companions) reference in  dry old book at Robert's court that virtually no one has read.

No one in westeros (except Ned and Howland, and maybe Wylla or whoever was the rest of 'they') would come across 8 cairns somewhere in the red mountains of Dorne and think "this must be the spot where the 3 KG and 5 northmen died".

 

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I seem to recall Ned thinking that "only two men rode away".  This would suggest that "they" were women.  Wylla may have been one of them.  I would expect there to be various servants, cooks, attendants, maybe a midwife.  Half a dozen or so, at most (I gather the Tower of Joy wasn't all that big).  I doubt a maester would have been present.  Jon may have been present, although as a newborn, he isn't going to be doing much.

As to what is publicly known, I think that it may be known that Ned and the kingsguards had a fight regarding Lyanna, who ended up dying in any case, and that it occurred in Dorne,, which is a location Rhaegar had connections to.  I seriously doubt that anyone knows how Lyanna died, or that it was consistent with complications of childbirth.  The 8 cairns by the (now dismantled) Tower aren't going to mean much to anyone not already familiar with the incident.

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7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Howland + Waila (probably) + any other servant ( these people even need help to get dressed. of course there are servants!) 

and ( by long shot) Ashara + baby Aegon ( if we'd like to subscribe to the "princes in the tower" theory!) :D

or (another long shot!) kingsgaurd(s) before death or still alive!!!:P

Wouldn't Wylla already have been inside? Unless her help wasn't needed during/before birth.

I like the theories posted here where Ned meets & wants to take baby Jon home but the KG refuse and the fight ensues

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21 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I seem to recall Ned thinking that "only two men rode away".  This would suggest that "they" were women. 

"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed."

So it seems there is no such implication.  Logically, "they" might include Howland Reed, but might also include either someone who was not among the 7+3 mentioned, or was among the 7+3 mentioned, but who "did not live to ride away".

No need to rule out some of Ned's men who arrived too late for the fight.

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25 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I seem to recall Ned thinking that "only two men rode away".  This would suggest that "they" were women.  Wylla may have been one of them.  I would expect there to be various servants, cooks, attendants, maybe a midwife.  Half a dozen or so, at most (I gather the Tower of Joy wasn't all that big).  I doubt a maester would have been present.  Jon may have been present, although as a newborn, he isn't going to be doing much.

As to what is publicly known, I think that it may be known that Ned and the kingsguards had a fight regarding Lyanna, who ended up dying in any case, and that it occurred in Dorne,, which is a location Rhaegar had connections to.  I seriously doubt that anyone knows how Lyanna died, or that it was consistent with complications of childbirth.  The 8 cairns by the (now dismantled) Tower aren't going to mean much to anyone not already familiar with the incident.

mayhaps "only two men rode away" and other men and women walked away

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3 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

mayhaps "only two men rode away" and other men and women walked away

Would probably have been a long hike.  Still,, in any event, I expect "they" refers to servants, attendants, and whoever might have been brought in for the birth and taking care of the babe.   It was probably a small number, both to maintain secrecy and because there was limited space available.

 

8 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

Wouldn't Wylla already have been inside? Unless her help wasn't needed during/before birth.

I like the theories posted here where Ned meets & wants to take baby Jon home but the KG refuse and the fight ensues

I'm pretty much convinced that is what the fight was about.  The KG were there to ensure that Jon would be a Targaryen claimant, and Ned was a threat to that.  They may have also regarded him as a possible threat to Jon himself, given he was on Robert's side and the deaths of Elia and her children.

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On 9/29/2021 at 8:12 AM, frenin said:

We are not told about said traditions tho, but nonetheless your argument is very good.

One could argue anyway, that Ned sent her body in a ship, while he went to Starfall, king's landing and then headed home.

Yes, there are lots of ways around this.

I would like to believe, though, that Ned's priorities, as well has his promise to Lyanna, involved the welfare of the living child, and that other operations involving the corpses had to be makeshift and temporary.

Riding to Starfall with Lyanna's corpse, in summertime, seems potentially unpleasant, and inconsistent with the reverence for the dead, even for that short distance.  Did not we see something similar in Brienne's chapters, with Ser Hyle (or whoever) trying to ride around with a severed head?

Knocking down a tower to make cairns seems like like tough work for 2 people.  But nothing rules out temporary makeshift cairns from gathered stones, until Ned could bring more resources to the site.  Maybe by this time, he was able to bring Silent Sisters with their special chemicals to reduce Lyanna's body to its bones for transportation, and hence, though there were originally 9 makeshift cairns, only 8 cairns were made from the Tower.

There does seem to be a curious focus on Dustin, though, as if he is somehow more significant than the others.  And the return of his horse to his widow seems to underscore the "never lived to ride away" line.

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2 hours ago, Nevets said:

I seem to recall Ned thinking that "only two men rode away".  This would suggest that "they" were women. 

No, see below.

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

As to what is publicly known, I think that it may be known that Ned and the kingsguards had a fight regarding Lyanna, who ended up dying in any case, and that it occurred in Dorne,, which is a location Rhaegar had connections to. 

And how come no one ever mentions this, no one ever wonders?

All of the theories about public information neglect two things.
i) The ToJ is an isolated spot. The only way anyone has of knowing anything about what happened there is if someone who was present at the time talked about it. If Lyanna died there and Jon was born there and R+L=J then there is a massive and important secret directly tied to the ToJ event that everyone who was there (Ned, HR on Ned's behalf, any 'they who were chosen loyalists by the KG/Rhaegar) has a massive interest in staying silent.

ii) All three unaccounted for (at the end of the war) KG being in one location in the middle of nowhere is a really big red flag. The Targaryen Dynasty collapsed, possibly in part because these three men weren't present at any of the critical spots. They were famously honourable/loyal. and Ned remembers them as defiantly so. There was a Targ holdout still at Dragonstone with the last remnants of the family there. 
So what were the three doing? Why were they there? Why weren't they in Dragonstone? What was so important that all three of them were in one spot doing it and they hadn't even sent one of them to Dragonstone?
These are all extremely important questions - if it is known that the three died together. Why does no one in all of Westeros ask them, or think about them, ever? 

IMO the only reasonable answer (that I can think of, and there are plenty I can think of that are unreasonable) is that it is not widely known that Ned fought the three at ToJ. 

If Ned and the others who did leave ToJ alive never speak, then what is widely known is:
 i) Ned went south to tidy up the end of the war
 ii) after Storms End he left with some close companions
 iii) many of his companions died before he resurfaces at Starfall
 iv) Lord Dustin died in the red mountains of Dorne (which are between Storms End and Starfall) (not widely known, but basically the same info as iii) above, just slightly more detail for Dustin's widow)
 v) somewhere between Storms End and Starfall Ned encountered Dayne and Dayne died, so Ned took Dawn back to Starfall.
 vi) during a messy civil war, lots of people just disappear, are never heard from again
No one knows what happened to Hightower or Whent. They probably died somewhere on some mission, in combat, by accident, through sickness, whatever, no one knows, people disappear in such times.

Note that these 'known things' fit neatly with all the information we hear of outside of Ned's head. The rumours, the things Ned did say to Bran and Barbrey, his reticence in those and other relevant conversations, every single thing fits coherently.
The only exception is a single line in an apparently unrelated passage in an obscure book hardly read by anyone. Which I still contend is most likely an editorial error written by a real-world author who knows much more than the maester supposedly writing it in-world knows and not caught by any editors.
Even if thats not the case, its clearly still not something known to almost anyone in Westeros. because after all, who in Westeros has actually tWoIaF? And no one seems to have thought about or asked about what happened to the missing KG.
 

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed."

So it seems there is no such implication.  Logically, "they" might include Howland Reed, but might also include either someone who was not among the 7+3 mentioned, or was among the 7+3 mentioned, but who "did not live to ride away".

No need to rule out some of Ned's men who arrived too late for the fight.

Indeed. That language above where 'only two had lived to ride away' is clearly a sub-reference to the 7 and 3. The the structure of the sentence.
7 men rode up. 3 men met them and those 10 fought. Out of those 10, 2 lived. Any others present who didn't fight the seven are not part of the sentence subject and do not need to be included in 'those who rode away'.

2 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

mayhaps "only two men rode away" and other men and women walked away

Just not needed. Any outside the 10 who fought, can ride away as well, they simply aren't part of the sentence structure that talks about the fight. 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

I would like to believe, though, that Ned's priorities, as well has his promise to Lyanna, involved the welfare of the living child, and that other operations involving the corpses had to be makeshift and temporary.

If there is a living child there (and I believe there was) then the child's welfare would certainly already have been attended to. Lyanna was dying remember. And was very young anyway. A wetnurse at the very least, and sufficient supplies for adults to live on for a time (and Ned would have much more than needed for adults now too). Hence the thought that Wylla is likely one of the "they".

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Riding to Starfall with Lyanna's corpse, in summertime, seems potentially unpleasant, and inconsistent with the reverence for the dead, even for that short distance.  Did not we see something similar in Brienne's chapters, with Ser Hyle (or whoever) trying to ride around with a severed head?

Agreed. Its not likely that Ned carried Lyanna's corpse  (as opposed to her bones) anywhere - unless he randomly had a large cask of alcohol to pickle her in (a la Lord Nelson) for example, or some other random odd thing - and the means to transport such. But nonetheless, he built precisely eight cairns for eight fallen warriors. And carried her bones home. 

Note also though, that ToJ is a pretty isolated location. Its in the midst of the Prince's Pass, which is a relatively wide valley or plain between two mountain ranges (its also known as the "Wide Way" ). Its most likely a lookout tower originally, since this was a region historically full of clashes and raids but its not in a known population centre. At either end of the pass are the two nearest population centres Kingsgrave and Nightsong.
Starfall is not actually that far away (comparatively), just on the wrong side of one of the mountain ranges and then down the river. High Hermitage, seat of a cadet branch of House Dayne (and where Darkstar is from) is even closer. I wonder whether there is a minor pass or track between High Hermitage (or more likely Blackmont - House Blackmont seems to be listed as among the Dornish Marcher skirmishes despite being on the Torentine River in most maps)  and the Wide Way?

The point (which I haven't really referenced above) is that a) everywhere is probably several days ride or more away and b) comparatively speaking Starfall might be not that far, and through less occupied territory, than most other routes away from ToJ.
Maybe.
Or maybe not. We don't know very much. 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Knocking down a tower to make cairns seems like like tough work for 2 people. 

Two people, possibly some other servants, and at least 10, probably more, horses. Probably ropes, maybe fire (though I suspect fire would not be a good option, drawing unwanted notice).
Not that hard really.
Especially not if a day or two is taken to pull the tower down (it was up in Ned's dream when he and his men arrived, yet described in his mind as long fallen and he explicitly used stones from it from the cairns), make the cairns, and perhaps boil Lyanna's flesh off her bones.
I guess the tower may have been partially fallen before he arrived. But its explicitly a "round tower" when he arrives, and he explicitly "pulled it down", and its explicitly described in his long future memories as a "tower long fallen" so the most likely answer is that it was significantly 'up' before he arrived and he 'downed' it after the fight (which was long ago by the time he is remembering it 15 years later).

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

though there were originally 9 makeshift cairns, only 8 cairns were made from the Tower.

There is never any mention of 9 cairns. Ned explicitly built 8.
Since 8 is actually entirely reasonable, why bother inventing an unnecessary temporary 9th?

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

There does seem to be a curious focus on Dustin, though, as if he is somehow more significant than the others.  

How exactly?
He gets one mention in Ned's dream, one mention on a ribald remark at Cat's wedding and one mention by Lady Dustin. 
In Ned's dream he gets one 'identifier' - his big red horse. Each of Ned's companions get one identifier too. Actually, Martyn Cassel gets 2 - proud and Jory's dad.

Doesn't seem like a lot of focus? I would have thought Howland Reed, primarily, and Martyn Cassel, secondarily, get more focus.

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On 9/28/2021 at 10:51 PM, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:
On 9/28/2021 at 10:51 PM, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

1. Seven vs. three.

2. Only two lived to ride away.

Only two lived to ride away…

Hmmm.. What if we try a thought experiment.

Lets say that we have a total of 10 combatants and 2 are alive. Any 2 out of the 10. The other 8 are dead. Those 8 could still ride away. They would just be hosting a dead body. We got dead that walk, skin changers, and glamours in the story so maybe?

 

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

People have pointed this out.
 

And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Icewas across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet, but the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came. "Ned," she called softly.

He lifted his head to look at her. "Catelyn," he said. His voice was distant and formal. "Where are the children?"

     Cat gets her red hair from her crazy Whent blood


When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle hisfather, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. Hishair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

What if Howland snatched the souls and seeded them into a new born baby? 6 children has Ned Stark. 2 children has Eddard Stark? 
All fun combinations and stuff can be found some better than others.

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"Dead is dead." I do not want to know this.

"Brandon was different from his brother, wasn't he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water. More like me."

"Brandon was nothing like you."

 

"And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

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On 9/29/2021 at 10:56 AM, StarksInTheNorth said:

Lyanna’s body was brought back to Winterfell and buried in the crypt. That’s why there’s not a cairn for her. 

Per Lady Dustin, it was her bones (not her body) that was transported North.  It (normally) takes time for a corpse to be reduced to its bones, and in the meantime, one needs some method of protecting the corpse from wild animals, such as (for instance) a cairn.   So, taken by itself, your explanation does not suffice.  But, as I have said, if you really want to find ways around this (arguable) clue, you certainly can.

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I think that those "they" were Ashara and Howland, and that Lyanna's death had occured at Starfall, not at the TOJ.

After Lyanna's death Ashara had informed Ned where the Kingsguards went. In my opinion there are two possibilities of what the Kingsguards were intending to do:

1. they were going to go to Robert and serve to him, because he became the King and the Kingsguards serve for life, even when one King dies and the other replaces him;

2. if amongst those three, the other two besides Arthur, were the Faceless Men, then they persuaded Arthur that they should take Jon away from Lyanna. I'm not sure what lies they fed to Arthur, though their real intentions probably were to kidnap Jon and to bring him to Braavos. The Sealord at that time still had those three dragon eggs that Braavosi aquired over a century ago from Elissa Farman. So over those years the Faceless Men kidnapped several "Targaryen" babies (such as Maelor, son of Aegon II). Because to hatch a dragon egg what is necessary is a child with the blood of the dragons (in the past Targaryens hatched dragon eggs by placing them in their childrens' cradles). And Jon was going to become another one of those - the potential hatchers kidnapped by the Braavosi. Ned went after them and wanted to take Jon back. So when they all fought and Gerold and Oswell killed five of Ned's companions, they also attacked Arthur and mortally wounded him (because amongst them he was the only real KG). Though before he died, he killed both of them. Wylla was with Jon and the Kingsguards at the Tower of Joy. So afterwards Ned took them and Howland and Dawn and brought them back to Starfall. There he borded that ship on which him, Howland and their companions came from the Storm's End to Starfall. On this ship Ned went to King's Landing. That's when he lied to Robert that Jon is his son and that Wylla is the mother. And when Ned after KL went to The North, he dropped off Ashara, Howland and their newborn daughter Meera at The Neck. Originally Wylla was supposed to be a wet-nurse for Ashara's child. Though when the Kingsguards took Jon from Starfall, they also made Wylla to come with them. That's in case of option 2 - if the Kingsguards took Jon with them.

And in case with option 1 - there were no FM amonsgt those KG and they were intending to go to Robert, in which case they didn't cared about Jon, and thus left him with his mother at Starfall. Thus in this case amongst those "them" at Starfall, there was also Wylla. After Lyanna's death, Ashara came to Ned with Wylla, who brought little Jon to show him to Ned. And thus afterwards Ned went to Starfall to prevent the Kingsguards from going to Robert and revealing to him Jon's existance. And afterwards happened the same thing as in the other option - the ship, KL, The Neck, Ned brought Wylla and Jon to Winterfell.

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Per Lady Dustin, it was her bones (not her body) that was transported North.  It (normally) takes time for a corpse to be reduced to its bones, and in the meantime, one needs some method of protecting the corpse from wild animals, such as (for instance) a cairn.   So, taken by itself, your explanation does not suffice.  But, as I have said, if you really want to find ways around this (arguable) clue, you certainly can.

The Westerosi culture clears bones after battle and death, typically done by the silent sisters. This is shown throughout the books. They sent Ned’s bones back, not his body. This is from ACOK, Catelyn V:

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Bones, Catelyn thought. This is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children. His hands were clasped together over his chest, skeletal fingers curled about the hilt of some longsword, but they were not Ned's hands, so strong and full of life. They had dressed the bones in Ned's surcoat, the fine white velvet with the direwolf badge over the heart, but nothing remained of the warm flesh that had pillowed her head so many nights, the arms that had held her. The head had been rejoined to the body with fine silver wire, but one skull looks much like another, and in those empty hollows she found no trace of her lord's dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone. They gave his eyes to crows, she remembered.

Occam’s razor would suggest the simplest explanation, which is that Ned had his sisters bones cleaned and took them north but let the rest remain. For more details in this being done, see below.

From ACOK, Tyrion XV:

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The wolves were grey, and so were the silent sisters; together they stripped the flesh from the fallen.

From ADWD, The Queen’s Hand:

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"I'll see that he's returned to Dorne." But how? As ashes? That would require more fire, and Ser Barristan could not stomach that. We'll need to strip the flesh from his bones. Beetles, not boiling. The silent sisters would have seen to it at home, but this was Slaver's Bay. The nearest silent sister was ten thousand leagues away. 

 

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14 hours ago, corbon said:

"If there is a living child there (and I believe there was) then the child's welfare would certainly already have been attended to ...."

Maybe.  Or maybe not.  There could easily be important things Ned had to do for the sake of the child.  There is much we don't know.

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Hence the thought that Wylla is likely one of the "they".

Possibly.  But just like my own Willam Dustin theory (which I know you hate) it is rather speculative.  Wylla seems to have some association with House Dayne, and it seems just as plausible to me that Ned picked her up when he visited Starfall.

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Agreed. Its not likely that Ned carried Lyanna's corpse  (as opposed to her bones) anywhere - unless he randomly had a large cask of alcohol to pickle her in (a la Lord Nelson) for example, or some other random odd thing - and the means to transport such.

I now think we can rule out the "pickled in a cask" idea, based on Lady Dustin's words.  She says that it was Lyanna's "bones" that Ned brought north. 

Also, it strikes me that the reason such examples arise in the case of seafarers (Lord Nelson, or Maester Aemon) is that there are so few other options aboard ship, other than "burial at sea".  From a landlubber's perspective, it would no doubt be considered disrespectful to pickle a loved one in a cask of brandy.

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But nonetheless, he built precisely eight cairns for eight fallen warriors. And carried her bones home. 

I won't deny the possibility that, to a northerner, a cairn may have a specific association with fallen warriors, and that this might be one reason why Lyanna's body was treated differently.

Nonetheless, her body still needs to be protected, until it can be  reduced (by decomposition or some other method) to its bones.  A cairn would be one way to protect the body.

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There is never any mention of 9 cairns. Ned explicitly built 8.

I know you hate my Willam Dustin theory.  So I'm offering you another way around it, by reading the words of the text narrowly, focusing on the words "afterwards", "on the ridge", and the 8 cairns being made from the stones of the demolished tower.  It could be that Ned returned to retrieve Lyanna's bones (after the body had decomposed and was ready to be transported and a cairn was no longer needed) and this was also when he demolished the tower and used the tower stones to make (larger) cairns for the fallen 8..  Alternatively, maybe Lyanna's cairn (or other adequate tomb) was not on the ridge, and/or not made from the stones of the tower for whatever reason.  

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Since 8 is actually entirely reasonable, why bother inventing an unnecessary temporary 9th?

Because that, or some other method, is necessary to protect the body from wild animals.  If he is planning to retrieve the bones later, after the body has finished decomposing (or after he has found some silent sisters to reduce the body to its bones), that is all the more reason he would need to keep the body protected.

GRRM is aware that this is an important function of cairns:

"I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place."

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How exactly?
He gets one mention in Ned's dream, one mention on a ribald remark at Cat's wedding and one mention by Lady Dustin. 
In Ned's dream he gets one 'identifier' - his big red horse. Each of Ned's companions get one identifier too. Actually, Martyn Cassel gets 2 - proud and Jory's dad.  Doesn't seem like a lot of focus? I would have thought Howland Reed, primarily, and Martyn Cassel, secondarily, get more focus.

Of the 5 who "never lived to ride away", Willam Dustin has the most focus.  Dustin's big red horse, by itself, gets more attention than some of the others.  Ethan Glover comes in second, but I don't think its even close.   Maybe Dustin and Glover were roughly tied until Lady Dustin started ranting in the last book.  I don't think Cassel is even in the running unless we give him extra credit for having known relatives, who receive their own attention.  I was not counting Howland Reed.

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55 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

The Westerosi culture clears bones after battle and death, typically done by the silent sisters.

I've mentioned the silent sisters already above.  But it seems unlikely to me that Ned just happened to have some silent sisters in his pocket.  Even if he went away to get some silent sisters, and returned with them, the body would still need to be protected in the meantime.

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Occam’s razor would suggest the simplest explanation, which is that Ned had his sisters bones cleaned and took them north but let the rest remain. For more details in this being done, see below.

From ACOK, Tyrion XV:

From ADWD, The Queen’s Hand:

I don't agree that occham's razor supports the idea that Ned had a big jar of carrion beetles handy and/or a personal entourage of silent sisters.   Meereen, in contrast, is  major city, where lots of specialized resources are available (though still without silent sisters).

As for boiling, the only example of this we see is Barristan rejecting the idea.  I can see why.  The method may be feasible, but the idea of throwing a loved one into a cauldron and turning him or her into a well-boiled pork stew would be distasteful to most family members.  Of course the tasks of a silent sister are inherently distasteful, which is one of the reasons for their tradition of silence.  But, to my knowledge, even the silent sisters don't use this method.  The "wiki" says they do, but cites no source, and appears to be inspired by the Barristan quote (which says nothing of the sort).

And while it is clear that silent sisters do have some method of removing flesh from bones, so the bones can be transported, I don't think Tyrion's fever vision of silent sisters and wolves jointly wandering around the battlefield stripping flesh from bones is the best and most-literal example of this.

But at least we now have yet another theory as to who "they" might have been.  They were Ned's personal entourage of silent sisters, who follow him wherever he goes, carrying jars of beetles.

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10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Maybe.  Or maybe not.  There could easily be important things Ned had to do for the sake of the child.  There is much we don't know.

I agree there is much we don't know.

But Lyanna died of a fever (ie so mot immediate loss of blood, but an infection or similar that takes some time to kill) in her bed of blood. So there was a birth, and the three KG knew it. I don't think its reasonable to suggest the three KG made no preparations whatsoever  for a baby to arrive, especially given it clearly took some time for Lyanna to die.

Incidentally, puerperal fever as a result of childbirth can take up to 10 days to kill, arguably a bit more.

10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Possibly.  But just like my own Willam Dustin theory (which I know you hate) it is rather speculative.  Wylla seems to have some association with House Dayne, and it seems just as plausible to me that Ned picked her up when he visited Starfall.

"just as"? Yes, we are all speculating a little. But speculations are not necessarily equal. Depends how they fit the data, the characters, and various likelihoods. (and even after assessing those the best we can we can still be wrong).

The Daynes think Wylla is Jon's mum. If Wylla is from Starfall originally, then when did Ned get her pregnant? And why do the Daynes think she's the mother if she was away from Starfall before, came back, Ned passed through and took Jon but left her?

Far more likely, Wylla was at ToJ and not Starfall through the proceeding year or so (allowing the Starfallians to think she'd had opportunity to be with Ned nine months before), maybe through Arthur Dayne (giving her an original Dayne connection to fall back on later). So when she turns up with Ned and Jon, the Starfallians think she's the mother of Jon. I expect she left with Ned too (though its not impossible she didn't, I just see no sensible reason for Ned to change wetnurse) and was also the wetnurse already at Winterfell when Cat arrived with Robb, and only after Jon was weaned did she leave Winterfell and go back to Starfall where she was able to obtain employment, perhaps through her connection to Arthur, perhaps on Ned's recommendation (he did return Dawn after all, thats an enormous deal for the Daynes), perhaps due to some original connection to Starfall, or Ashara.

10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I now think we can rule out the "pickled in a cask" idea, based on Lady Dustin's words.  She says that it was Lyanna's "bones" that Ned brought north. 

The pickled cask idea would last to Starfall (or some other location, like High Hermitage, or Blackmont), where there would be Silent Sisters. I agree, its fanciful and unlikely. Tne point is that your insistence that Ned must either temporarily bury Lyanna's body and come back for it later, or carry a rotting corpse with him, is patently nonsense. There are plenty of other possibilities - including boiling the flesh off her bones right then and there.

10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Of the 5 who "never lived to ride away", Willam Dustin has the most focus.  Dustin's big red horse, by itself, gets more attention than some of the others.  Ethan Glover comes in second, but I don't think its even close.   Maybe Dustin and Glover were roughly tied until Lady Dustin started ranting in the last book.  I don't think Cassel is even in the running unless we give him extra credit for having known relatives, who receive their own attention.  I was not counting Howland Reed.

Except this may be your personal subjective impression - obviously the big red horse sticks in your mind - but as a data assessment it is simply false. There is no special focus on Dustin - far from it. In fact, he's the one of Ned's companions that we hear least about as a person (except Ethan, who wasn't really Ned's companion, but Brandon's and sat out the whole war in the dungeons of the Red Keep) - his horse is more of a feature than he is. So much so that the only reason we know his name is from the appendices! Martyn, Theo and Mark actually get a personality recollection from Ned.

I showed you how little attention he gets. He crops up three times in total - once in Ned's dream, once in an old reminisce about Cat's wedding which has no relevance on anything (but is typical GRRM verisimilitude on the connectedness of people) and once when we met his wife.
The horse, twice.

Martyn Cassel has more references (because of Jory, but thats the same as Lady Barbrey)

Ethan Glover has two references and more plot importance, being connected to significant events with both Ned and Brandon (Ethan was Brandon's squire, and the only man to survive Aery's rage after Brandon's stupid stunt at the Red Keep). While we meet Galbert Glover, we don't actually see much of him as an individual and its not known how close a relation he was to Ethan.

Theo Wull also gets a second reference mention, where we find out his nickname, "buckets".
 

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14 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Only two lived to ride away…

Hmmm.. What if we try a thought experiment.

Lets say that we have a total of 10 combatants and 2 are alive. Any 2 out of the 10. The other 8 are dead. Those 8 could still ride away. They would just be hosting a dead body. We got dead that walk, skin changers, and glamours in the story so maybe?

No. It says "only two had lived to ride away". Any dead that ride away are irrelevant.

 

 

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