Who's "they" ?

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Dream of a dream.

Event 1 takes place. Has dream 1A of event.  
Event 2 takes place.

The Ned has a dream. B.

Inside this Dream B is 1A. 
Dream B may contain its own events B2

The Neds B2 dream containing 1A may muddle the waters. Confusing the time and place of the two dreams.

If someone was invading Neds mind to gain information of the events, this could explain the discrepancies. The invader is trying to see through the lie of what took place.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

14 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Bones, Catelyn thought. This is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children. His hands were clasped together over his chest, skeletal fingers curled about the hilt of some longsword, but they were not Ned's hands, so strong and full of life. They had dressed the bones in Ned's surcoat, the fine white velvet with the direwolf badge over the heart,

When Hodor came bustling in, smiling and humming tunelessly, he found the boy resigned to his fate. Together they got him washed and brushed. "The white wool doublet today," Bran commanded. "And the silver brooch. Ser Rodrik will want me to look lordly." 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Hodor was nothing to him. "If he does not fight us, we will let him live." Theon pointed a finger. "But say one word about sparing the wildling, and you can die with her. She swore me an oath, and pissed on it."

Last night I pissed on a king's foot," Osha went on. "Might be it was morning, who can say? I was sleeping, but now I'm not." They all slept a lot, not only Bran. There was nothing else to do. Sleep and eat and sleep again, and sometimes talk a little . . . but not too much, and only in whispers, just to be safe. 
 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Ned was delirious. His dream is not to be taken seriously. He was on drugs.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/30/2021 at 3:15 PM, corbon said:

And that Howland was present is no secret either - HR was always with Ned during and in the immediate aftermath of the war.

Would the same apply to Ned's companions who died in the fight at ToJ? Why or why not? Wouldn't it be quite a coincidence that the only one publicly known to have accompanied Ned there (although Barb also knows her husband died in Dorne with Ned) is the one who happened to have survived?

Quote

nor that all his other companions died in that fight

What makes them more secretive while Howland's presence is supposed to be public knowledge? Barbry knows her husband is buried in those Dornish mountains whereas Lyanna's bones were returned. Do you think the families of the other dead men know less than Barbry about those deaths?

Quote

You don't keep secrets by advertising them, you keep secrets by allowing people to not even notice they are there.

That's not Ned's approach regarding whether Jon is Ashara's son. He forbids anyone even mentioning her name.

Quote

First we have his reaction to Cat and Robert, when they tried to discuss things from that time - Jon's origins and Jon's wetnurse.

I already mentioned Cat, which Ned atypically shut down. With Robert, Ned had already given a name earlier which Robert forgot, and when Robert pressed Ned gave it again. The same name Edric Dayne gives as Jon's mother.

Quote

Also note, it is in fact you who ignore the text. You assume Bran didn't ask more questions, because he didn't want to make Ned's sadder. But thats not what the text says. The text says that Ned would say no more. Thats not 'didn't say any more', as in stopped talking because it was enough, but wouldn't say any more, which infers that that there was some pressure (from Bran) to talk some more. there was a refusal to talk more, not a just a end of the talking.

Wrong, and now I have to do this again. The note that Ned would say no more is immediately followed by "Bran wished he had asked him what he meant." Bran holds himself responsible for not finding out due to his own inaction, NOT his father shutting him down when he asked. Looking back at that old thread, you didn't even attempt to respond to that point. Did you just forget since then?

Quote

Dayne had to be somewhere.

And the other KG don't?

Quote

Its finding Dayne with Whent and Hightower

It's known that Rhaegar disappeared with some companions when he went to abduct Lyanna, and that Arthur was his closest companion. It's known that because Aerys couldn't find Rhaegar, he sent Gerold Hightower to look for him, with the result being that Rhaegar came back without Gerold. The lives of the KG are documented in the White Book. They are very much public figures, not people whose lives & deaths simply go unremarked. It's even required that their deaths be known so that replacements can be made without exceeding the number 7 or requiring anyone to retire (which never happened prior to Selmy).

Quote

I'll also note that it is incorrect to state that Ned "freely" spoke of Arthur Dayne to Bran

It was "freely" because no one was making Ned talk about it if he didn't want to. Bran didn't even ask about Arthur specifically, Ned just specified him as the best, and added the detail about Howland unprompted.

Quote

If we are going to put up headcannons against each other, I'll back mine of Ned which follows the text in sees him never once speak of the ToJ to anyone

He spoke of facing Arthur alongside Howland Reed. Why is that ok while the other KG are supposed to be taboo?

Quote

never tell any important details

What's "important" is subjective.

Quote

public knowledge

Which includes the deaths of all 3 KG per the World of Ice and Fire.

Quote

close down conversations touching upon it with Cat

No, that conversation didn't mention any of the people who died at ToJ or Howland. It was about ASHARA, who is never alleged to have been there at the time rather than back home at Starfall!

Quote

yours which seemingly has Ned tell anything to anyone

Not ANYTHING. He doesn't like talking about Jon's mother, which is why his kids have never heard of Ashara or Wylla.

Quote

and no one in-universe wondering why 3KG were together in the middle of nowhere doing nothing and not guarding any of the royal family

In your interpreation, are there people who believe the KG were in KL defending said family? Even though there are plenty of people in the city who know that wasn't the case and their bodies weren't found there? And is the public knowledge that Arthur was in the middle of nowhere rather than defending the royal family easily brushed off as no big deal whereas the other two wouldn't be?

Quote

Her husband had to die somewhere

So did Ned's four other dead companions, and the three KG.

Quote

You'll note that again, Ned didn't give away anything that signals the secret of ToJ

Indeed, knowing the people who died there doesn't reveal the secret.

Quote

No information about how Dustin died

Old age, coincidentally around the same time Arthur Dayne died in combat...

Quote

no information about who he died with

Don't you think the families of the other dead companions also know?

Quote

only a broad regional location of his grave

That's what she tells Theon, not an exhaustive list of everything she knows.

Quote

Heck, its far from certain that she even did suicide

Everyone in-universe agrees with this, from Edric Dayne even to Harwin downplaying rumors. The most popular alternate fan theory is that she faked her death, in which case it would still be "public knowledge" merely of a false sort.

Quote

doesn't mention Ned's 5 companions

They're far less famous than the KG, not entries in the White Book. One was even a mountain clansman.

On 9/30/2021 at 9:01 PM, corbon said:

vi) during a messy civil war, lots of people just disappear, are never heard from again

Not KG. Even during prior civil wars, it's a matter of historical record how they died.

Quote

They probably died somewhere on some mission, in combat

No, they're quite recognizable in their white armor and their deaths would be remembered. Ned also recalls looking for them in other expected places and not finding them.

Quote

Even if thats not the case, its clearly still not something known to almost anyone in Westeros. because after all, who in Westeros has actually tWoIaF?

Sometimes maesters cite sources for why they know something not widely known. But this isn't one of those cases. This was something within living memory, and the maester distinguishes the part of the story which is rumored to what which is not.

[Mister Smikes]

19 hours ago, corbon said:

Incidentally, puerperal fever as a result of childbirth can take up to 10 days to kill, arguably a bit more.

"... bed of blood".   Did they not change the sheets since the childbirth?

Quote

Yes, we are all speculating a little. But speculations are not necessarily equal.

Of course not.  Your speculations are better than mine.  In your opinion.

Quote

The Daynes think Wylla is Jon's mum.

Well, Ned Dayne thinks this.  And he was not even born at the time.

Quote

If Wylla is from Starfall originally, then when did Ned get her pregnant?

Dunno.  I'd say most fans don't think Ned ever did get Wylla pregnant, and I'm guessing you probably don't believe this either.  If he did, maybe it was at Harrenhall.  But we know so little about Wylla that this conversation is not going to go very far.

Quote

And why do the Daynes think she's the mother if she was away from Starfall before, came back, Ned passed through and took Jon but left her?

How should I know?  Maybe she said so.  Or maybe these "ifs" are not true.

Quote

Far more likely, Wylla was at ToJ and not Starfall through the proceeding year or so

Or maybe she was at neither place.

Quote

The pickled cask idea would last to Starfall (or some other location, like High Hermitage, or Blackmont), where there would be Silent Sisters.

A man-sized cask of alcohol strikes me as the sort of thing that would be far more likely to be found at a seaport than in some high mountain pass.  Riding around mountain paths with a man-sized cask of alcohol strapped to a horse strikes me as another sort of thing that would not be done.   Pickling a beloved relative in a cask of alcohol strikes me as another thing that would not be done -- unless a party was at sea and had no other options.  It's not a coincidence that the only historical example you were able to cite was Lord Nelson, and that the only example from the books is Maester Aemon, both of whom died at sea.

Quote

I agree, its fanciful and unlikely.

Sure is.

Quote

The point is that your insistence that Ned must either temporarily bury Lyanna's body and come back for it later, or carry a rotting corpse with him, is patently nonsense.

You are trying (yet again) to portray me as claiming to have presented some completely airtight argument, as part of your campaign to shift onto me some burden of absolute proof.  It does not seem to matter how many times I tell you (1) that it is only a theory; (2) that I do no claim to have absolute proof; (3) that any vague fuzzy clues I present in support of the theory should be interpreted in that context; and (4) that I agree that you can always find possible ways to avoid the arguable implications of these "clues".

You just agreed with me that the alternative you just proposed is "fanciful and unlikely".

Quote

There are plenty of other possibilities - including boiling the flesh off her bones right then and there.

Also fanciful and unlikely.  I really don't think Ned just threw his sister into a large cauldron and turned her into a well-boiled pork stew.  I agree that it is technically feasible, but it is a process inconsistent with the reverence for the dead.

And, while we are at it, I don't think much of your suggestion that Ned could just ride to Starfall with his sister's corpse tied to a horse, because it is "not that far" or whatever.  It is something like 280 miles as the crow flies; and of course he cannot travel as the crow flies, especially through mountains.  Lyanna is going to be plenty stinky by the time she gets to Starfall.  And even if you overcomplicate your hypothesis by postulating an interim destination like High Hermitage or whatever, I thinks she is still going to be plenty stinky.

The single most plausible alternate hypothesis that anyone has come up with, is that Ned just happened to have a bunch of silent sisters with the right tools readily available.  But this also strikes me as somewhat unlikely. 

Quote

Except this may be your personal subjective impression - obviously the big red horse sticks in your mind - but as a data assessment it is simply false. There is no special focus on Dustin - far from it. In fact, he's the one of Ned's companions that we hear least about as a person (except Ethan, who wasn't really Ned's companion, but Brandon's and sat out the whole war in the dungeons of the Red Keep) - his horse is more of a feature than he is.

No.  It is an objective fact that, in terms of word count at least, he gets more attention than any of the others.  The following comparison excludes the appendices:

MARTYN CASSEL (~20 words):   Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father...[GOT eddard10]  Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest  [GOT eddard10]

ETHAN GLOVER (~52 words ?**):  Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire...[GOT Eddard10]   "[Brandon] rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, .... But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, ..." "Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire, [...]He was the only one to survive." [COK Catelyn7]

THEO WULL (~22 words):  faithful Theo Wull...[GOT Eddard20]  "... wasn't there a Wull who rode with Father during the war?"  "Theo Wull ... Buckets, they used to call him." [SOS Bran2]

MARK RYSWELL (~10 words):    Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart... [GOT Eddard10].

WILLAM DUSTIN (~228 words):   Lord Dustin on his great red stallion ... [GOT Eddard10] When Lord Dustin had beheld her naked, he'd told Ned that her breasts were enough to make him wish he'd never been weaned. Poor man, [...]. He had ridden south with Ned, never to return.  [SOS Catelyn7]  "...she still holds Ned Stark to blame for her husband's death." [DWD Reek3]   ... the banners were those of the late Lord Dustin and his widowed wife.  [DWD Reek3]  ...a Dustin by marriage ... [DWD The Prince of Winterfell] ...  old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed  [DWD The Turncloak]  I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."  [DWD The Turncloak]  "Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go. He had kin he might have sent in his stead. ... But he was a man and full of pride, nothing would serve but that he lead the Barrowton levies himself. I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father's herds. My lord swore that he would ride him home when the war was done.  [...] "Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne.

** I have been somewhat generous in counting words for Ethan, since most of the words counted merely concern a group that Ethan was apparently a part of.  I include them though, since they are necessary to give context to the statement that only Ethan survived.  Without them, Ethan's word count goes down to 19.

Quote

So much so that the only reason we know his name is from the appendices! 

If his first name is a clue potentially connecting him to Dany's memories, it maybe makes sense that he would bury that clue in the appendices.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

"Would that we could," Ned said, "but we have duties now, my liege … to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are not the boys we were."

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

 

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

[Kingmonkey]

Wildcard possibility for one of the "they": The Ghost of High Heart.

 

Rhaegar had frequently visited Summerhall and seems to have been taken by GoHH's prophecy. GoHH seems to have a thing about harpists. It's very reasonable to think that at some point Rhaegar would have sought her out and met her. If we believe some variant of the idea that Rhaegar was trying to fulfil some aspect of prophecies at the ToJ, then there's good reason for GoHH to have been there.

 

There's something more specific though. When Arya meets the GoHH, the ghost sees her and urges her to come forwards so she can look at Arya properly. When she does so and GoHH gets a good look at her, GoHH reacts oddly:

 

Quote

 

She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."

Cold fingers walked down Arya's neck. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she reminded herself. She stood and approached the fire warily, light on the balls of her feet, poised to flee.

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . . " She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

 

 

She knows who Arya is already, but what might have surprised her and roused those memories of grief is that Arya looks like Lyanna.

[corbon]

On 10/3/2021 at 4:59 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Would the same apply to Ned's companions who died in the fight at ToJ? Why or why not? Wouldn't it be quite a coincidence that the only one publicly known to have accompanied Ned there (although Barb also knows her husband died in Dorne with Ned) is the one who happened to have survived?

No. People die. Whether they died in one skirmish, or separately in three or four minor skirmishes makes no difference usually. They were Ned's companions, left Storms End with him and died somewhere between there and Starfall. They are minor footnotes to history and their fates are really only of vague interest to their families, and of no huge significance, quite unlike the collective importance of those legends Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent and the Lord Commander, Ser Gerold Hightower, in the fall of a dynasty whose sole duty it was to protect.

Quote

What makes them more secretive while Howland's presence is supposed to be public knowledge?

They aren't. You've misunderstood it seems. 
Ned simply doesn't talk. Hardly anything at all, and never anything of defining importance. About this time that is.
There is no big secret about Howland Reed or any of Ned's companions. Its just that they aren't terribly interesting or important to anyone.

Quote

Barbry knows her husband is buried in those Dornish mountains whereas Lyanna's bones were returned. Do you think the families of the other dead men know less than Barbry about those deaths?

Maybe, or probably some other similar near-meaningless tidbit. They died with honour, they saved Ned's life, something like that. Barbrey got a minor soothing (not very) platitude (thats maybe not the best description on my part) but nothing of any depth. I don't see any reason why other families would have gotten more. Or less necessarily, other than not literally being on the way home.

Quote

That's not Ned's approach regarding whether Jon is Ashara's son. He forbids anyone even mentioning her name.

Different situation. That is a 'secret' that is already not just out and noticed, its being actively gossiped upon. 
And, as pointed out a thousand times before, its not Ashara's name that Ned has interest in. Its gossip about Jon's mother. Cat is focused on Ashara because that was her thought and her question that triggered the scene, but Ned's focus was on the gossip about Jon's mother, not Ashara per se.

Quote

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

 

Quote

I already mentioned Cat, which Ned atypically shut down. With Robert, Ned had already given a name earlier which Robert forgot, and when Robert pressed Ned gave it again.

The name of a wetnurse that is well known at Starfall and probably Winterfell, is no secret. And he tried to and did shut down the conversation

Quote

The same name Edric Dayne gives as Jon's mother.

Yeah. That little bit of info isn't a secret. Wylla's an actual person who nursed Jon for some time, almost certainly at Starfall during Ned's visit and probably at Winterfell as well. Everyone at Starfall and probably WInterfell can know that already.

Quote

Wrong, and now I have to do this again. The note that Ned would say no more is immediately followed by "Bran wished he had asked him what he meant." Bran holds himself responsible for not finding out due to his own inaction, NOT his father shutting him down when he asked. Looking back at that old thread, you didn't even attempt to respond to that point. Did you just forget since then?

I did forget. I think that was the point where for other reasons I had to stop coming to the forum for a while. <shrug> not ideal, sorry, but there are other things more important. I may stop again any time now, as  its actually happening again now (my wife is home from surgery, so needs more help, and work is picking up after lockdowns), but since I'd had time to read your reply it would be more than a bit awkward to disappear again at exactly the same point without at least once replying. 

However, the passage doesn't infer what you claim. That Bran wished he had asked Ned one specific thing, doesn't mean he didn't ask any other questions or push Ned in any way. The fact remains the Ned would say no more. And that indicates something more than just the immediate cessation of conversation.

Quote

And the other KG don't?

They do. 
Its all three together thats a big deal, not their individual fates.

Quote

It's known that Rhaegar disappeared with some companions when he went to abduct Lyanna, and that Arthur was his closest companion. It's known that because Aerys couldn't find Rhaegar, he sent Gerold Hightower to look for him, with the result being that Rhaegar came back without Gerold. The lives of the KG are documented in the White Book. They are very much public figures, not people whose lives & deaths simply go unremarked. It's even required that their deaths be known so that replacements can be made without exceeding the number 7 or requiring anyone to retire (which never happened prior to Selmy).

No, it isn't. You just made that up. People can be lost on missions, especially in a chaotic time like a civil war. They may be presumed dead, and replaced.  Or they may be turncoats and replaced. 
In this case its not even relevant. Robert was a rebel, the start of a new Dynasty. He started a new Kingsguard. He didn't have to keep any of the old KG, but he chose to keep Jaime and Selmy, each for different reasons.  
During the Dance of the Dragoons both Aegon and Rhaenyra had Kings/Queensguards and Visery I's KG was split between them. Each considered those following their opponent to longer be members of 'their' guard and replaced them, the total combined being over 7. 

Quote

He spoke of facing Arthur alongside Howland Reed. Why is that ok while the other KG are supposed to be taboo?

First, because the Arthur detail is already out there. He somehow acquired Dawn, and there is no way Arthur would have 'lost' that sword but by death. So Ned had found Arthur for sure and everyone know it.
Second, Ned is already aware that there has been a rumour about him killing Arthur Dayne in single combat (and he didn't try to shut this one down, that we know of - its clearly linked to the return of Dawn*, not Jon's parentage). So there is no point in trying to prevent Bran from knowing about that at all.

* And thats the key point. Ned vs Arthur is linked to 'Dawns return'. not 'ToJ showdown'. Dawns return is not a secret. ToJ showdown is.

Quote

Which includes the deaths of all 3 KG per the World of Ice and Fire.

Well, yes. One obscure line in an unrelated passage. We are discussing whether this might be in fact a mistake by the editors of aWoIaF or not. Its the only place any indication of this is found, its obscure and off topic, it doesn't appear to have any potential reasonable source, and it fails several logical tests.

Quote

No, that conversation didn't mention any of the people who died at ToJ or Howland. It was about ASHARA, who is never alleged to have been there at the time rather than back home at Starfall!

Pay attention. It was not about Ashara. Cat thought so, and its her perspective we read, so we get given that impression by GRRM. But read what Ned actually said. For Ned, that conversation was about Jon's mother, and if Lyanna dies at ToJ and Ned acquired Jon there (which all indications point to) then the fight at ToJ touches on that.

Quote

In your interpreation, are there people who believe the KG were in KL defending said family?

Of course not. Well, there could be some idiots who guess that, but I doubt it. IMO most people simply don't know what happened to Whent and Hightower. They don't have enough information to even speculate. Both were last seen (separately) months and  over a year before the war ended, were sent or went on missions away from KL and ... thats it. Never seen again. Its probable a few people know a little more - Hightower being sent to find Rhaegar for example, Whent having been with Rhaegar when he disappeared before the war started etc. but how much more (most likely very little) is known and by who (very few people indeed, Varys, Barristan and Jaime being the most likely candidates to know a little bit).

Quote

Even though there are plenty of people in the city who know that wasn't the case and their bodies weren't found there?

Newsflash. If you create stupid straw men arguments, they'll be stupid. 

Quote

And is the public knowledge that Arthur was in the middle of nowhere rather than defending the royal family easily brushed off as no big deal whereas the other two wouldn't be?

Yes. Not that Arthur is different from the other two, but that each, alone, is just a guy doing something unknown. But all three together, at the end of the war, having sat it out while being famously honourable, not at Dragonstone with the last of the dynasty? Yeah, thats huge flashing neon red lights. 

Quote

Indeed, knowing the people who died there doesn't reveal the secret.

But knowing all three KG were there, does give away that there is a huge something secret.

Quote

Old age, coincidentally around the same time Arthur Dayne died in combat...

Dustin was a youngish man, only wed 6 months, with a great uncle who could have gone to war in his place.

Quote

Don't you think the families of the other dead companions also know?

Maybe, but possibly not. Mostly they are out of the way and Ned didn't stop by on the way home to deliver a horse.  They probably got a raven, and maybe a quiet sorrowful word without much detail, much later.

Quote

That's what she tells Theon, not an exhaustive list of everything she knows.

Maybe not, but it may be too. As far as we know it is. I doubt anything else Ned said to her was about the time and place, more likely, if anything, about her husband as a person.

Quote

He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests

Sounds like pretty much everything he told her about her husband's death specifically.

Quote

Not KG. Even during prior civil wars, it's a matter of historical record how they died.

We don't know that for all of them. The ones we know are when they died in ways that weren't an isolated secret, but had witnesses with no reasons not to acknowledge their deaths.

Quote

No, they're quite recognizable in their white armor and their deaths would be remembered. Ned also recalls looking for them in other expected places and not finding them.

You don't think that they are capable of changing armour? Of moving about inconspicuously when on a mission? Of being killed by bandits who never tell anyone what they did? Of being buried in a landslide? Of being drowned in a river or at sea?

Quote

Sometimes maesters cite sources for why they know something not widely known. But this isn't one of those cases. This was something within living memory, and the maester distinguishes the part of the story which is rumored to what which is not.

And whose living memory is it? Thats a large part of my point.

On 10/3/2021 at 7:32 AM, Mister Smikes said:

"... bed of blood".   Did they not change the sheets since the childbirth?

Don't know. Don't know if it was even an actual bed with sheets, or they had spare sheets. Or if Lyanna was still bleeding and was on her 20th pair of fresh sheets. Or whatever. 
Bed of blood is a phrase that indicates the act of childbirth, and/or place the woman gives birth. We can't tell the exact details of what it means, only the context.

Quote

Of course not.  Your speculations are better than mine.  In your opinion.

Yes.
But not because they are mine. Because they follow and fit the text much better than yours do. 
My speculations were not all invented by me. Many, probably most, maybe all, were the speculations of others first who passed my personal tests of textual reference, logic and probability, and thus I adapted them as my own. If yours did the same, better than the ones I have now, then I'd applaud and adapt yours. If they did the same but not quite (IMO) as well, I'd accept and occasionally reference them, but not drive them as strongly as 'my own'.

This is not about me or you, no matter how much you insist on trying to make it so. Its about consistency with the textual knowledge we have, reason, and probability.

Quote

Dunno.  I'd say most fans don't think Ned ever did get Wylla pregnant, and I'm guessing you probably don't believe this either.  If he did, maybe it was at Harrenhall.  But we know so little about Wylla that this conversation is not going to go very far.

I'm not talking about fans. I'm talking about Starfallians. I'm sure that people there have an understanding of conception and 9 month to birth etc. If Wylla is from Starfall, as you seem to infer, then she had to be up north with the rebels 9 months before Jon was born, in order for Ned to get her pregnant. 

Quote

How should I know?  Maybe she said so.  Or maybe these "ifs" are not true.

Maybe you could try thinking about how the various scenarios work, which see people at Starfall think Wylla is Jon's mum (but Ashara was Ned's lover)? And why? ANd how that thought is consistent with what they could or should know?

Quote

Or maybe she was at neither place.

Yep, possible too. Perhaps Ned picked her up as a Wetnurse between ToJ and Starfall. Which kinda begs the question, what were the KG planning to do with Jon as Lyanna lay dying. Let him starve to death (and thats the main reason I think she was probably at ToJ)?

The point is, try to find a scenario in which the different parties all act reasonably, in their own interest, and yet the different rumours still make sense to those who spread them. And then have that scenario consistent with what GRRM has written for us. 

'My' theory does this. The theories you propose do not.

Quote

A man-sized cask of alcohol strikes me as the sort of thing that would be far more likely to be found at a seaport than in some high mountain pass.  Riding around mountain paths with a man-sized cask of alcohol strapped to a horse strikes me as another sort of thing that would not be done.   Pickling a beloved relative in a cask of alcohol strikes me as another thing that would not be done -- unless a party was at sea and had no other options.  It's not a coincidence that the only historical example you were able to cite was Lord Nelson, and that the only example from the books is Maester Aemon, both of whom died at sea.

 

Yes. I agree, its more in the realms of not-impossible than a reasonable likelihood. But its still more reasonable than riding around with a decomposing loved one.
Still, it wouldn't be that hard to find a cart somewhere in the Wide Way. And probably not even that hard to find a cask of alcohol. And there are definitely roads, used by carts, through the Wide Way. There may even be more minor roads, maybe or maybe not suitable for a cart, between the Wide Way and the Torrentine. The point is that there are ways to do this without riding around with a decomposing loved one.

Quote

You are trying (yet again) to portray me as claiming to have presented some completely airtight argument, as part of your campaign to shift onto me some burden of absolute proof.  It does not seem to matter how many times I tell you (1) that it is only a theory; (2) that I do no claim to have absolute proof; (3) that any vague fuzzy clues I present in support of the theory should be interpreted in that context; and (4) that I agree that you can always find possible ways to avoid the arguable implications of these "clues".

Pointing out the holes in a theory is not portraying you as having presented an airtight one. Yet somehow you find it offensive.

I don't know about you, but my policy is not to pick a random theory that 'might' be true, but to sift details and test theories to try and find the most fitting that I can.

Quote

You just agreed with me that the alternative you just proposed is "fanciful and unlikely".

Yes. It wasn't actually my theory, It was just an example showing that there are many ways that things you claim are impossible could be achieved. You make negative claims which just don't work. All I was doing was showing those negatives don't work.

Quote

I really don't think Ned just threw his sister into a large cauldron and turned her into a well-boiled pork stew.  I agree that it is technically feasible, but it is a process inconsistent with the reverence for the dead.

Except, that (ignoring the silly pork stew part) it isn't. It might be inconsistent with your reverence for the dead, but boiling is exactly one of the methods Barristan says is commonly used. And its one that could be achieved by Ned at ToJ within a day or so. 
Frankly, I rather suspect that riding around with a skeleton of a loved one is not within the bounds of your (or my) reverence for the dead. Remember Cat getting Ned's skeleton, dressed in his clothes, with the skull bound to the rest with silver wire? Thats pretty creepy IMO. Ashes, maybe, for us. But its relatively 'normal' in Westeros.

Quote

And, while we are at it, I don't think much of your suggestion that Ned could just ride to Starfall with his sister's corpse tied to a horse,

I didn't suggest that. That was your straw man.

 

[Mister Smikes]

55 minutes ago, corbon said:

Dustin was a youngish man, only wed 6 months, with a great uncle who could have gone to war in his place.

We don't know how old Dustin was, as I have shown above.   The wiki does not venture a maximum or minimum age for him, probably for the excellent reason that none can be determined.

[Daeron the Daring]

6 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

We don't know how old Dustin was, as I have shown above.  

Chances aren't in your favor, at least that much you can admit, right? I mean, there is a slight chance he was an old man, and the fact that Lady Barbrey is furious about his death to this day further weakens the possibility that he was an aged person instead of a handsome young lad. 

[Mister Smikes]

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

I'm not talking about fans. I'm talking about Starfallians. I'm sure that people there have an understanding of conception and 9 month to birth etc. If Wylla is from Starfall, as you seem to infer, then she had to be up north with the rebels 9 months before Jon was born, in order for Ned to get her pregnant. 

So now you're pretending to know when she gave birth.  I'm not committed at all to her being "from Starfall", but it can hardly be ruled out.

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

Maybe you could try thinking about how the various scenarios work, which see people at Starfall think Wylla is Jon's mum (but Ashara was Ned's lover)?

If that's what they think, they must think he "loved" both people.  If that's a contradiction, it is not my problem.

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yep, possible too. Perhaps Ned picked her up as a Wetnurse between ToJ and Starfall. Which kinda begs the question, what were the KG planning to do with Jon as Lyanna lay dying. Let him starve to death (and thats the main reason I think she was probably at ToJ)?

I made no assumptions as to the identity of the (theorized) baby who was born at the TOJ at the same time as Jon's arrival.

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

The point is, try to find a scenario in which the different parties all act reasonably, in their own interest, and yet the different rumours still make sense to those who spread them. And then have that scenario consistent with what GRRM has written for us. 

'My' theory does this. The theories you propose do not.

My theory addresses what it addresses.  If you want a theory addressing other things, it would be a different theory.

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yes. I agree, its more in the realms of not-impossible than a reasonable likelihood. But its still more reasonable than riding around with a decomposing loved one.

I'm glad that we agree that both are unlikely.  Nuff said.

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

Pointing out the holes in a theory is not portraying you as having presented an airtight one. Yet somehow you find it offensive.

Maybe "offensive" is not the right word.  But you keep trying to shift some burden of absolute proof to me, and I don't have to accept that burden.  And your claim that I acknowledged only 2 possibilities was simply a false characterization of the discussion so far.

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

I don't know about you, but my policy is not to pick a random theory that 'might' be true, but to sift details and test theories to try and find the most fitting that I can.

I told you the clues my theory was based on.  You are under no obligation to be convinced.

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yes. It wasn't actually my theory, It was just an example showing that there are many ways that things you claim are impossible could be achieved.

But I never claimed they were "impossible".  I have clarified this countless times.   

56 minutes ago, corbon said:

Except, that (ignoring the silly pork stew part) it isn't. It might be inconsistent with your reverence for the dead, but boiling is exactly one of the methods Barristan says is commonly used.

What?  No.  The only thing Barristan said about boiling is that he objects to the idea.  That's it.

If you want to read more into it, the only thing I got from it was that, even though Quentyn is technically a criminal from his POV, Barristan still wants Quentyn corpse treated with reverence.  Barristan is not even family, and he still objects to boining

Anyhow, Meereen is a culture that has traditionally treated human beings like animals.  Even if this method was "commonly used" in Meereen, it would be beside the point.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Chances aren't in your favor, at least that much you can admit, right?

How on earth would you calculate chances?  Dustin can easily be 35 or 40 or older, at the time of the TOJ, making 40 or 45 or older, and wasted by disease (making him look, for instance, 10 years above his true age, as we have seen with other wasted characters), at the time of Dany's memories.   He can be as old, and especially, as old-looking, as GRRM wants him to be.   And if some of ultra-fuzzy clue about his age puts us on the wrong scent, maybe that's what he wants.  That makes the theory viable and dice rolling somewhat irrelevant.   If GRRM does not want us to guess his secrets, he does not have to make the tea leaves easy to read.

Remember, my theory was not based on his age, but on other clues.  But sure.  If you rule out those clues as not worthy of consideration, and consider only the points raised by Corbon, then I would guess that he was probably (but far from certainly) under 30.   But if that's your starting premise, there is no need for counterarguments anyway.

If JK Rowling had described a character as having an uncle and a great uncle still living, maybe that would imply that the character were young.  But GRRM had already gone to great trouble creating family trees where this was far from the case.  He knows better.  He can use this to mislead us if he likes, and if we allow ourselves to be misled, it is no-one's fault but our own.

Quote

I mean, there is a slight chance he was an old man, and the fact that Lady Barbrey is furious about his death to this day further weakens the possibility that he was an aged person instead of a handsome young lad. 

Is Jaime not handsome at 36?   Lord Dustin was not even Barbrey's first choice.  But I don't think her bitterness over his death proves that he was not past 30, past 40, nor even past 50.  Women sometimes love their husbands; and if they don't love them alot, sometimes they love them a little.  And sometimes they love them for qualities other than good looks (which Lord Dustin is never said to have had).

Dustin's father had only died recently, so we can probably say Dustin was not past 60.  Unless GRRM wants that, in which case I see nothing stopping him.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

26 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

How on earth would you calculate chances?  Dustin can easily be 35 or 40 or older, at the time of the TOJ, making 40 or 45 or older, and wasted by disease (making him look, for instance, 10 years above his true age, as we have seen with other wasted characters), at the time of Dany's memories.   He can be as old, and especially, as old-looking, as GRRM wants him to be.   And if some of ultra-fuzzy clue about his age puts us on the wrong scent, maybe that's what he wants.  That makes the theory viable and dice rolling somewhat irrelevant.   If GRRM does not want us to guess his secrets, he does not have to make the tea leaves easy to read.

Remember, my theory was not based on his age, but on other clues.

If JK Rowling had described a character as having an uncle and a great uncle still living, maybe that would imply that the character were young.  But GRRM had already gone to great trouble creating family trees where this was far from the case.  He knows better.  He can use this to mislead us if he likes, and if we allow ourselves to be misled, it is no-one's fault but our own.

Is Jaime not handsome at 36?   Lord Dustin was not even Barbrey's first choice.  But I don't think her bitterness over his death proves that he was not past 30, past 40, nor even past 50.  Women sometimes love their husbands; and if they don't love them alot, sometimes they love them a little.  And sometimes they love them for qualities other than good looks (which Lord Dustin is never said to have had).

Dustin's father had only died recently, so we can probably say Dustin was not past 60.  Unless GRRM wants that, in which case I see nothing stopping him.

Wait so Mr.Smikes is claiming that Dany is the kid of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Wait so Mr.Smikes is claiming that Dany is the kid of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

All that I am claiming is that IF the Willam in Dany's earliest memories is Dustin and not Darry, then that necessarily means that the location of these memories must be at or near the Tower of Joy.   This is because we know that Dustin "never lived to ride away."

If Dustin is Dany's Willam, this might imply R+L=D.  But there are other possibilities, such as that she is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara.  If a child were raised in isolation at the Tower of Joy, it might have been the one who looked most like a Targaryen, not necessarily the one (or the only one) that was born there.

All that is being suggested here is that her earliest memories might be of the Tower of Joy, and that the "Willem" she remembers is in fact Dustin, not Darry.

[Daeron the Daring]

4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

How on earth would you calculate chances?  Dustin can easily be 35 or 40 or older, at the time of the TOJ, making 40 or 45 or older, and wasted by disease (making him look, for instance, 10 years above his true age, as we have seen with other wasted characters), at the time of Dany's memories.   He can be as old, and especially, as old-looking, as GRRM wants him to be.   And if some of ultra-fuzzy clue about his age puts us on the wrong scent, maybe that's what he wants.  That makes the theory viable and dice rolling somewhat irrelevant.   If GRRM does not want us to guess his secrets, he does not have to make the tea leaves easy to read.

Remember, my theory was not based on his age, but on other clues.  But sure.  If you rule out those clues as not worthy of consideration, and consider only the points raised by Corbon, then I would guess that he was probably (but far from certainly) under 30.   But if that's your starting premise, there is no need for counterarguments anyway.

If JK Rowling had described a character as having an uncle and a great uncle still living, maybe that would imply that the character were young.  But GRRM had already gone to great trouble creating family trees where this was far from the case.  He knows better.  He can use this to mislead us if he likes, and if we allow ourselves to be misled, it is no-one's fault but our own.

I would calculate chances based on what we know. That he was recently wed when he left to fight in the war makes it likely that he was young. That he had a great uncle who could've fought in his stead further increases the possibility that he was indeed a young guy. His great uncle to be at the same age as he is, his great grandfather would not only have to be alive at the age of 55+ (assuming everything was alright with everyone and the grandfather just as the father was conceived when their fathers were under the age od 20 amd the youngest possible age to marry), but also fertile and married to a woman of the right age. To further increase the possibility of Willam Dustin being a young and possibly handsome as well, we know Barbrey is still mad about his death. That doesn't really imply to me that the man was in his thirties at least, old for his age and ravaged by sickness and the kind for his life. It is also quite unusual for someone who's intended to inherit to not be married. Yea maybe Lord Willam was widowed as well, but that is another assumption that just narrows the possibility of your version being the actual case. That makes your version a viable one, but it's chances are really, really slim. And it's not like it's hinted in any proper way. The single undisputable backup you have to your theory is that both man were called Willem. Nothing more. That's not too much. You build up your theory on that, everything else is just guessing and assumptions based on assumptions (on numerous levels). And it's not like thr whole thing would have any service plot-wise. Lord Dustin was a recently wed guy with no heir? Why wouldn't he return to Barrowton? Why couldn't Daenerys grow up with Viserys once she is his sister/ intended to believe she is? How would all this fit from Viserys' point of view? And even if all these questions are PROPERLY answered, and anyone who executed this plan had a reason to do so, why would it require a guy actually named Willam? Why can't it be a random guy and not a person who has other duties to fulfill as well? If these questions are futher proof to you, then you don't argue in a reasonable way. George left no tea leaves to collect in this mistery, since Willam Dustin's death and future life isn't one. 

Looking out which way this fits the best into your already disputable ideas and basing your arguments on those isn't right. You have already wild assumptions that are incompatible with the story itself. 

4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Is Jaime not handsome at 36?   Lord Dustin was not even Barbrey's first choice.  But I don't think her bitterness over his death proves that he was not past 30, past 40, nor even past 50.  Women sometimes love their husbands; and if they don't love them alot, sometimes they love them a little.  And sometimes they love them for qualities other than good looks (which Lord Dustin is never said to have had).

But Barbrey certainly seems to be Lord Dustin's first choice. No mention of being widowed, no children from different and previous wives, etc... People can certainly be handsome in their late thirties as well, but that doesn't make your theory any more likely. 

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I would calculate chances based on what we know.

"What we know" includes all reasons that form a basis for my theory.  If you think these are worthy of consideration, you have to factor them in.  If you don't consider them worthy of consideration, there is no need for any rebuttal at all.

Quote

That he was recently wed when he left to fight in the war makes it likely that he was young.

On the other hand, his father apparently died at around this time. and not in any known war, making it likely his father was old.   If you are going to assume (on similar logic) that his father married young, and that Willam was his firstborn child (merely because no others are mentioned) then you could just as easily argue on similar logic that the father must have married young, and hence  that Willam his firstborn is now probably close to middle age.  Not an airtight argument, but hardly any worse than yours.

Sure, you can speculate that the Old Lord Dustin died young in his 40s; or married late making his firstborn son 35-40 years younger than he was.  But it is just as possible that Willam Dustin married (whether for the first or second time) in his 40s.

Or to put it another way, if he was so damned young why was he already the reigning Lord of Barrowtown?  On average, he probably wouldn't be, given that his father apparently did not die in war.   But you want to only consider the averages that suit you.

Quote

That he had a great uncle who could've fought in his stead further increases the possibility that he was indeed a young guy.

We don't know that the grand uncle could have fought in his stead.  He never tried.  

Quote

His great uncle to be at the same age as he is, his great grandfather would not only have to be alive at the age of 55+ (assuming everything was alright with everyone and the grandfather just as the father was conceived when their fathers were under the age od 20 amd the youngest possible age to marry), but also fertile and married to a woman of the right age.

None of the scenarios I suggested involved the grand-uncle being the same age as him.  They all involved him being 10, 15, or 20 years older.  And I can't see why you are rolling your eyes at the idea of a rich and powerful man being alive and able to conceive a child at the age of 55+.

Quote

To further increase the possibility of Willam Dustin being a young and possibly handsome as well, we know Barbrey is still mad about his death.

I'm sorry, but that's beyond weak.

Quote

That doesn't really imply to me that the man was in his thirties at least,

Doesn't imply the contrary either.

Quote

old for his age and ravaged by sickness and the kind for his life.

No.  It would be ~5 years later, when he was ravaged by illness and close to death, that he would appear old for his age.  That would not apply when Barbrey knew him.

Quote

It is also quite unusual for someone who's intended to inherit to not be married. Yea maybe Lord Willam was widowed as well, but that is another assumption that just narrows the possibility of your version being the actual case.

He could have been widowed without surviving children, or he could have married late.  Both are possible.

Quote

That makes your version a viable one, but it's chances are really, really slim. And it's not like it's hinted in any proper way. The single undisputable backup you have to your theory is that both man were called Willem. Nothing more.

Nothing is "indisputable".   But there are far more arguable clues than that.  There's also the mysterious "they" that is the topic of the thread.  There's the 9 bodies with only 8 cairns that we've been discussing.   There's Ned's failure to return Lord Dustin's bones.  And there's that pesky lemon tree that the lemonhaters hate so much:   

(Spoilers All) GRRM on Dany and Lemon trees in Braavos. - Imgur

I could say more but you are probably not interested.

Quote

That's not too much. You build up your theory on that, everything else is just guessing and assumptions based on assumptions (on numerous levels).

And trying to calculate a man's age based on a recent marriage is NOT guessing?

Quote

And it's not like the whole thing would have any service plot-wise. Lord Dustin was a recently wed guy with no heir? Why wouldn't he return to Barrowton?

Well, among other possible reasons, that's where Lady Dustin is.   Why would anyone want to return to Lady Dustin?  And Ned has secrets to keep, and a reason to minimize risk by using only people he already trusts who already know the secret.

Quote

Why couldn't Daenerys grow up with Viserys once she is his sister/ intended to believe she is?

He did grow up with her, after he acquired her at (maybe) around age 5.  There are 1000 possible reasons why he might not have done so earlier.

Quote

How would all this fit from Viserys' point of view?

He needs a fake princess to sell to a dumb barbarian in exchange for an army.   This requires years of planning to pull off.

Quote

And even if all these questions are PROPERLY answered, and anyone who executed this plan had a reason to do so, why would it require a guy actually named Willam? 

It doesn't.  But if a little girl has memories that intersect with her intended programming, that hardly hurts the scheme.  And if she does happen to have any compatible memories, they will be incorporated into her programming.  For instance, if the is told she grew up in a house in Braavos, her supposed memory of that house will match some memory of early childhood.   Including a lemon tree that should not be there.

Quote

If these questions are futher proof to you, then you don't argue in a reasonable way. George left no tea leaves to collect in this mistery, since Willam Dustin's death and future life isn't one. 

Looking out which way this fits the best into your already disputable ideas and basing your arguments on those isn't right. You have already wild assumptions that are incompatible with the story itself. 

YAWN!  Now you are sounding angry.  No-one has any obligation to be interested in my theory.  If you cannot cope, then don't engage.

[Daeron the Daring]

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nothing is "indisputable". 

 

Not true. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

YAWN!  Now you are sounding angry.  No-one has any obligation to be interested in my theory.  If you cannot cope, then don't engage.

I'm not angry. You have no reason to adsume I'm angry. Why you imply I'm angry then? It's what you always do in all your discussions (I've read most of them), is this some kind of defensive method? This is a written discussion, not a verbal one. I can read your reply in any voice I want, that doesn't change the intention of your reply.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

"What we know" includes all reasons that form a basis for my theory.  If you think these are worthy of consideration, you have to factor them in.  If you don't consider them worthy of consideration, there is no need for any rebuttal at all.

I consider them worth of consideration, and I acknowledge them as a possibility. Neither of us has enough evidence to prove anything, we are discussing the likelihood of something. The basis of your theory are theories and possibilities. It's like betting on a bet. I bet that you win your bet. The odds (my prize as well) exponentially increase, but my chances are narrowing down and down. When you build up an assumption on another assumption, the likelihood of that thing becoming true decreases severely. That's how things work. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

On the other hand, his father apparently died at around this time. and not in any known war, making it likely his father was old.   If you are going to assume (on similar logic) that his father married young, and that Willam was his firstborn child (merely because no others are mentioned) then you could just as easily argue on similar logic that the father must have married young, and hence  that Willam his firstborn is now probably close to middle age.  Not an airtight argument, but hardly any worse than yours.

Sure, you can speculate that the Old Lord Dustin died young in his 40s; or married late making his firstborn son 35-40 years younger than he was.  But it is just as possible that Willam Dustin married (whether for the first or second time) in his 40s.

Or to put it another way, if he was so damned young why was he already the reigning Lord of Barrowtown?  On average, he probably wouldn't be, given that his father apparently did not die in war.   But you want to only consider the averages that suit you.

It's almost as if that isn't a possibility. Aegon III died at the age of 35, no ilness, injury or desease being the reason for that. In the middle ages, the average life expectancy of people who lived to adulthood was still 40. 50-55 years was what most people would consider "old" old. Everything beyond that was quite unusual. Combine that with the fact that Lord Willam Dustin just got married, there's no report of previous marriages. Things match this way. They don't in your way, which makes all your speculation less likely to actually be the case. Still a possibility. And for all we know Lord Willam might've had 20 older sisters and 10 older brothers who all deceased, making him the oldest living son. We don't know.  But even if Lord Dustin was 55 when he died, that would not have to make Willam 30 or 35. The reason we even assume he wasn't a young lad is because that way he would fit your theory, in which he isn't even a requierment. A fucking peasant would do as well, but we have to assume it was Willam Dustin for no particular reason (you admitted that). There are unknown conditions, that much we know. The known ones aren't in your favor, like it or not. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

None of the scenarios I suggested involved the grand-uncle being the same age as him.  They all involved him being 10, 15, or 20 years older.  And I can't see why you are rolling your eyes at the idea of a rich and powerful man being alive and able to conceive a child at the age of 55+.

Didn't say it does. Just made it clear how the age difference would look like between someone and a great uncle. And I'm rolling my eyes on the idea of a 55+ guy fathering a children because at 55 people aren't usually fertile enough, and even if they are, the chances of such child surviving is extremely low, only because the father is old. People can concieve children that have the highest chance of survival when they are young, and healthy. On top of that, quarter of children didn't live past infancy in the middle ages. You are going against the odds, again. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm sorry, but that's beyond weak.

I'm not surprised that you say that. It's what I expect at this point. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Doesn't imply the contrary either.

It does. It does make it the most likely option. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

No.  It would be ~5 years later, when he was ravaged by illness and close to death, that he would appear old for his age.  That would not apply when Barbrey knew him.

Illnes doesn't necesarilly make anyone look older than they are. Another condition we just have to put in the bag and assume is right for why exactly? 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He could have been widowed without surviving children, or he could have married late.  Both are possible.

Of course. I'll write it on the list of things we must assume so that your theory can have it's chances. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

There's also the mysterious "they" that is the topic of the thread. 

The fuck. Ned Stark literally destroyed the building, I assume he didn't do it alone. Or with Howland and a misterious X Y. For all we know, there could have been a 100 people there, and might all have been required as well. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

There's the 9 bodies with only 8 cairns that we've been discussing. 

Lyanna was one body. She's the missing one. Since her bones were returned to Winterfell, there is no reason to make him a grave somewhere else as well.  The 8 cairns are the 3 KG and 5 of Ned's companions. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

There's Ned's failure to return Lord Dustin's bones

There is no such thing. There isn't a reason why Ned would've tought anyone required Lord Dustin's bones. The only person's bones that were returned was Lyanna's, since she happened to had been a sister to Ned, yknow? 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And there's that pesky lemon tree that the lemonhaters hate so much:   

(Spoilers All) GRRM on Dany and Lemon trees in Braavos. - Imgur

I could say more but you are probably not interested.

There isn't more. And these all mean nothing. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And trying to calculate a man's age based on a recent marriage is NOT guessing?

It is not. Guessing and trying to uncover the most probable option are two separate things. Both can end the same way, but still. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, among other possible reasons, that's where Lady Dustin is.

This 'argument' shows how much you are inclined to be an ignorant just si that your ridiculous suggestion can have a stand. The scene when the two depart is a romantic one, when the guy promised that he will return to his beloved wife, etc.. There is no sign that Lord Dustin wanted to get away from his wife. And even if, succes was succession in medieval times. There are various and heavy reasons on why should Lady Dustin return to Barrowton. On the other hand, you've showed no valid ones on why he shouldn't, or why would Ned Stark ask a recently wed (young or old) lord with no heir to guard anyone Ned says. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Why would anyone want to return to Lady Dustin? 

Lady Dustin was a goodlooking woman, and not the person she is currently. The past events are rather the reason why she is this bitter. Lord Willam had every reason to return, which is not only indicated by logic, but by the nature of their depart as well. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And Ned has secrets to keep, and a reason to minimize risk by using only people he already trusts who already know the secret.

I wonder why didn't Howland Reed remained there. He went way back with him, still he choose Lord Dustin. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He did grow up with her, after he acquired her at (maybe) around age 5.  There are 1000 possible reasons why he might not have done so earlier.

There are none. It changed nothing. They fostered Daenerys for 5 years and then they threw her out to the street with her brother, altough they still cared for her? You actually believe that? 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He needs a fake princess to sell to a dumb barbarian in exchange for an army.   This requires years of planning to pull off.

No, it doesn't. They don't need the barbarian to be dumb, nor the princess to be fake. Nor do they need years. This is made up shit. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

It doesn't. 

Then Willam Dustin, who just happened to have better things to do (much better) had no reason to stand behind all this. This is where your theory is entirely broken. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

But if a little girl has memories that intersect with her intended programming, that hardly hurts the scheme.  And if she does happen to have any compatible memories, they will be incorporated into her programming.  For instance, if the is told she grew up in a house in Braavos, her supposed memory of that house will match some memory of early childhood.   Including a lemon tree that should not be there.

Show me a single reason on why Daenerys had to grow up apart from Viserys. You say there are a ton of them. Show me all of them, rather. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The fuck. Ned Stark literally destroyed the building, I assume he didn't do it alone. Or with Howland and a misterious X Y. For all we know, there could have been a 100 people there, and might all have been required as well. 

It's seems pretty clear from Eddard's memory that he was the one that tore the tower down:

Quote

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

It would be unlike modest Ned to take the credit for a large construction crew.

I think the inconvenient truth of the matter, is that it wasn't much of a tower at all, it being able to be pulled down by a single individual and it's stones being enough to make 8 measly cairns.

[Frey family reunion]

On 10/2/2021 at 5:39 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Rhaegar had frequently visited Summerhall and seems to have been taken by GoHH's prophecy.

Yes on the first point, I'm not sure where you come up with the second point though.  Is there anything in the text to suggest that Rhaegar had met the GOHH?

Also Summerhall is nowhere near High Heart.  Why would Rhaegar have come across the Ghost of High Heart at Summerhall?  It seems doubtful that she would have hung around the site that gave her such grief.