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Who's "they" ?


Falcon2909

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16 hours ago, corbon said:

Well, yes. One obscure line in an unrelated passage. We are discussing whether this might be in fact a mistake by the editors of aWoIaF or not. Its the only place any indication of this is found, its obscure and off topic, it doesn't appear to have any potential reasonable source, and it fails several logical tests.

I understand the temptation to ignore info that disputes one's theory, but I think we have to avoid that temptation to the best of our ability.  It's very clear in a book co-written by GRRM that it's public knowledge that Arthur was killed alongside Hightower and Whent.  As for the source of the information, it surely must have come from Eddard himself.  

After all, he was very conscientious about telling House Dayne the fate of Ser Arthur, I would assume that he'd be just as concerned about giving House Whent and House Hightower the same courtesy.

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2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I'm not angry. You have no reason to adsume I'm angry. Why you imply I'm angry then? It's what you always do in all your discussions (I've read most of them), is this some kind of defensive method? This is a written discussion, not a verbal one. I can read your reply in any voice I want, that doesn't change the intention of your reply.

Ok.  You're not angry.  

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I consider them worth of consideration, and I acknowledge them as a possibility. Neither of us has enough evidence to prove anything, we are discussing the likelihood of something. The basis of your theory are theories and possibilities. It's like betting on a bet. I bet that you win your bet. The odds (my prize as well) exponentially increase, but my chances are narrowing down and down. When you build up an assumption on another assumption, the likelihood of that thing becoming true decreases severely. That's how things work. 

 You're just writing long paragraphs telling me I have said nothing, and assuming I can say nothing further.  Which I know is not true.  

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In the middle ages, the average life expectancy of people who lived to adulthood was still 40.

No, I think that figure is the average life expectancy at birth.  Not that we have reliable statistics or anything.

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50-55 years was what most people would consider "old" old.

Okay.  Sure.  Lady Dustin considers herself "old", and she's probably not too much past 40, if even that.   This is a double edged sword for you.   You cannot tell much about Dany's Willam, merely because 5-year old Dany considered him "old" after he had been wasted by illness.

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Didn't say it does. Just made it clear how the age difference would look like between someone and a great uncle.

If they were the same age, sure.  But that's not necessary.

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And I'm rolling my eyes on the idea of a 55+ guy fathering a children because at 55 people aren't usually fertile enough, and even if they are, the chances of such child surviving is extremely low, only because the father is old. People can concieve children that have the highest chance of survival when they are young, and healthy.

Most 55+ year old men have 45+ year old wives.  But a rich and powerful man whose wife dies in childbirth in the middle ages can remarry.  

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Illnes doesn't necesarilly make anyone look older than they are.

So?  I never offered the apparent age of Dany's Willem as a point in favor of my theory.  This is an alleged DISPROOF offered my opponents.  So now you admit that it ain't NECESSARILY so?  Yeah, that's what I said.

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Of course. I'll write it on the list of things we must assume so that your theory can have it's chances. 

That's not how an author writes fiction.  He can make the facts suit is narrative.  And none of the facts you are mocking are extraordinary enough to raise eyebrows.  For instance, the infant mortality rate is not very relevant to the question of whether the baby born at the Tower of Joy survived or not.

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The fuck. Ned Stark literally destroyed the building, I assume he didn't do it alone.

Doesn't say he did it the same day.  

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Or with Howland and a misterious X Y. For all we know, there could have been a 100 people there, and might all have been required as well.

Yet the fight was 7 against 3.  Others can show up, but it is less incongruous if some time is allowed to elapse.  

Or, you know, we could just say "insufficient data" and lock the thread.

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Lyanna was one body. She's the missing one. Since her bones were returned to Winterfell, there is no reason to make him a grave somewhere else as well.  The 8 cairns are the 3 KG and 5 of Ned's companions. 

We just had a large discussion about that.  All the alternatives proposed to giving Lyanna some kind of grave (temporary or not) near where she died were unlikely ones.  It is easy for you to tell me I have said nothing if you ignore what I say.

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There is no such thing. There isn't a reason why Ned would've tought anyone required Lord Dustin's bones.

He's the Lord of Barrowtown, famous for its Barrows.   And his widow was upset.

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There isn't more. And these all mean nothing. 

You keep telling me I have said nothing while not addressing what I say.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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This 'argument' shows how much you are inclined to be an ignorant just si that your ridiculous suggestion can have a stand.

No.  You don't sound angry at all.

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The scene when the two depart is a romantic one, when the guy promised that he will return to his beloved wife, etc..

I'm not sure how romantic it was.  I just noticed the curious focus on riding.  Promising to RIDE his horse home.  And Ned taking the trouble to return the horse, but not bothering to put the bones in an ossuary and strap them to the side of a horse who must make the journey anyhow.

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There is no sign that Lord Dustin wanted to get away from his wife.

Dude.  We've met her.  Anyhow, this was never a point in favor of my theory.  This is YOUR counterargument, that Dustin could not possibly have had any reason for not returning.  Not even loyalty to Rhaegar, a little Targ princess to care for, or a battle injury that leaves him unable to ride.  But the theory is not really based on those guesses either.  I guess if the theory turns out to be true, GRRM will tell us the reasons.

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There are none. It changed nothing. They fostered Daenerys for 5 years and then they threw her out to the street with her brother, altough they still cared for her? You actually believe that? 

I don't understand the question.  Who is "they"?  

I don't think Viserys was with Dany at the The House with the Red Door.  She has no explicit memories of him there.    She only believes he was there because she conflates her memories of growing up in Dorne with his stories of growing up in Braavos.  After Willam's death, some underling betrayed them, and had Dany sold into slavery; she fell into the hands of the slaver Illyrio, who we know is a dealer in Targ-haired girls.

Meanwhile, Darry was, until his death, always in Braavos.  The original Dany died young, like most of Rhaella's infant children.

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No, it doesn't. They don't need the barbarian to be dumb, nor the princess to be fake. Nor do they need years. This is made up shit. 

Illyrio explicitly mentioned "years of planning" are somehow involved here.

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Show me a single reason on why Daenerys had to grow up apart from Viserys

Had to?  Why does R+L+J "have to" be true?  Or is there one standard for orthodox theories and another for heretical ones?

Viserys grew up with Darry in Braavos.  But Dany's lemon tree; Dany's memories of barefoot carefree innocent life; the scents from the Western Market that reminded Dany of home; Dany's memories of Viserys tormenting her regarding her identity; Viserys worrying that Dany did not look the part; Viserys' years of planning in collusion with a slaver dealing in Targ haired girls, all suggest that Dany's earliest memories are not of Braavos but of somewhere else.

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You say there are a ton of them. Show me all of them, rather.

Sounds like you are asking me to write essays for you.  But you know, I don't actually owe you my time, and you did not even say "Please".  Moreover, you seem militantly determined to ignore the things I have already said, and tell me I have said nothing.

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8 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

 

I don't understand the question.  Who is "they"?  

I don't think Viserys was with Dany at the The House with the Red Door.  She has no explicit memories of him there.    She only believes he was there because she conflates her memories of growing up in Dorne with his stories of growing up in Braavos.  After Willam's death, some underling betrayed them, and had Dany sold into slavery; she fell into the hands of the slaver Illyrio, who we know is a dealer in Targ-haired girls.

Meanwhile, Darry was, until his death, always in Braavos.  The original Dany died young, like most of Rhaella's infant children.

Illyrio explicitly mentioned "years of planning" are somehow involved here.

Viserys grew up with Darry in Braavos.  But Dany's lemon tree; Dany's memories of barefoot carefree innocent life; the scents from the Western Market that reminded Dany of home; Dany's memories of Viserys tormenting her regarding her identity; Viserys worrying that Dany did not look the part; Viserys' years of planning in collusion with a slaver dealing in Targ haired girls, all suggest that Dany's earliest memories are not of Braavos but of somewhere else.

 

I skimmed through your posts and I think this theory is really interesting and would make a great/fun to read twist in the winds. it also makes kinda sense but still there are two problems:

first of all according to Dany's memories she and Viserys where together when they were completely broke to the point that Viserys sold their mother's crown , something that broke him apart mentally, now this is not an issue by itself but why on earth would Viserys hang on to a girl who is not related to him for so long? why not simply leave her? 

the other problem is Dustin. he would fit the part for Dany's Darry regarding "old age" with westerosi scale but why would Dustin , a northern newly wed lord loyal to Brandon who has died in the hands of this girl's grandpa, stay behind to take care of Dany? so what do you think? maybe she had another foster parent..

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8 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

first of all according to Dany's memories she and Viserys where together when they were completely broke to the point that Viserys sold their mother's crown , something that broke him apart mentally, now this is not an issue by itself but why on earth would Viserys hang on to a girl who is not related to him for so long? why not simply leave her? 

I think your question answers itself.  Dany is the only thing that Viserys has in his possession that he could use as coin to gain an army.  A girl that looks the part, and Viserys word that she is his sister.  One would use the girl as trade, while keeping yourself available for another marriage alliance.

10 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

the other problem is Dustin. he would fit the part for Dany's Darry regarding "old age" with westerosi scale but why would Dustin , a northern newly wed lord loyal to Brandon who has died in the hands of this girl's grandpa, stay behind to take care of Dany? so what do you think? maybe she had another foster parent..

Personally, I think this theory is a bit bonkers.  I don't think that Dustin would fit the part age wise to be the man that Dany recalls.  Nor would Dustin just throw away his wife and inheritence to raise her.

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Just now, Frey family reunion said:

I think your question answers itself.  Dany is the only thing that Viserys has in his possession that he could use as coin to gain an army.  A girl that looks the part, and Viserys word that she is his sister.  One would use the girl as trade, while keeping yourself available for another marriage alliance.

I don't think so. Viserys uses Dany as a coin when the series start. that's true . but for years before that he was a boy called begger king with no particular scheming talent. he is the one telling Dany Targaryens wed brother and sister. Dany had reasons to believe she would marry Viserys in the future. he too lust over his sister and was angry about having to give her up. Viserys is not the kind of guy to think about future logically. he doesn't plan things. 

anyways, I do find R+L=D theory fun . how cool it would be if it turns out to be true somehow while we've been speculating about Jon and Aegon's parentage all this time?! but even if that happens I can't see Dustin playing the step dad role...

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I don't think so. Viserys uses Dany as a coin when the series start. that's true . but for years before that he was a boy called begger king with no particular scheming talent. he is the one telling Dany Targaryens wed brother and sister. Dany had reasons to believe she would marry Viserys in the future. he too lust over his sister and was angry about having to give her up. Viserys is not the kind of guy to think about future logically. he doesn't plan things. 

Erratic as Viserys is, I do not think he is not so feeble-minded as to be incapable of understanding the political value of a sister as coin for the forging of alliances.  This is true regardless of whether Dany is real or fake.   Viserys is apparently not attracted to pre-pubescent girls, and once they were at Illyrio's manse (which would be around the time she hit puberty), Illyrio could guard her from his attentions.

And the ideas don't necessarily have to stem from erratic Viserys.  Illyrio seem to hint that the scheme to wed Dany to a Dothraki Khal was years in he making, even though, as far as Dany knows, they were only at Illyrio's manse for a few months prior to her marriage.

Obviously, if the beggar king does a tour of the free cities over the course of years with Dany in tow, this goes a long way toward establishing her identity.  Having her magically show up 6 months before the marriage would be less likely to work, for all kinds of reasons.  And obviously, it would not do to let the world know that Illyrio's sponsorship of them dates back to the time Viserys began presenting Dany to the world.  He is a dealer in Lysene slave girls, after all.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

the other problem is Dustin. he would fit the part for Dany's Darry regarding "old age" with westerosi scale but why would Dustin , a northern newly wed lord loyal to Brandon who has died in the hands of this girl's grandpa, stay behind to take care of Dany? so what do you think? maybe she had another foster parent..

There are lots of options with theories, so I can't rule out another foster parent besides Willam.  But there does seem to be some kind of thread involving Willam that GRRM is spinning.  And when I make theories, my habit is to look for converging loose ends.

As for Willam's motive for remaining with Dany, I guess the best answer for now might be "I don't know"; and (if the theory turns out to be correct) I suppose GRRM will supply a suitable explanation in due time.  I don't mind speculating, but then of course the lemonhaters will leap in and demand absolute proof of every speculation.  But what the hell:  here goes:

The problem Ned faces is he has a Targ featured child to protect, and a infanticidal King on the throne who seemingly wants to slay dragonspawn.  He has (maybe) two people who know something about this:  Willam and Howland.  Can he trust them to keep the secret, risking a charge of treason from the King?  Hopefully yes, but if he brings more people in on the secret, the more people he has to trust, and the greater the risk.  

But why might Willam volunteer for a task that Ned did not dare give to anyone else?  Maybe he knew Lyanna.  Lady Dustin knew Lyanna making it likely that Willam knew her as well.  Maybe Willam liked Lyanna or even loved her.

Another idea that occurred to me is that he suffered an injury at the TOJ that impaired his ability to ride.  And recall that Dany's Willam is seen with a cane.

It is hardly self evident to me that a warrior might be willing to sacrifice his life, but would never ever dream of giving up his wife.  That Willam said nice things to his wife as he rode away only shows that Willam is nice, not that his wife is.  To my eyes, Lady Dustin seems a witch, and it is hardly self-evident to me that Willam would be particularly eager to return to her.   He spent 6 months with her, and maybe that was enough.  

To this point, people have responded that I cannot prove that Lady Dustin did not become mean and bitter later in life.  Which is fine as far as it goes.  Except that I never offered Lady Dustin's personality as a point in favor of my theory.  Rather, my adversaries have assumed he would necessarily want to return to her, and they are the ones who cannot prove what they want to assume.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I don't think so. Viserys uses Dany as a coin when the series start. that's true . but for years before that he was a boy called begger king with no particular scheming talent. he is the one telling Dany Targaryens wed brother and sister. Dany had reasons to believe she would marry Viserys in the future. he too lust over his sister and was angry about having to give her up. Viserys is not the kind of guy to think about future logically. he doesn't plan things. 

You misunderstand me.  I’m not claiming Viserys came up with the scheme.  It’s fairly easy to tell the players who would have concocted it.  It would be Willem Darry, Oberyn Martell (probably on behalf of Doran) and perhaps the then Sealord of Braavos.  With an outside chance that the Archon of Tyrosh may have been involved as well (which perhaps explains why the Archon’s brother was at Dany’s wedding shower).  Dorne supplies the girl and Viserys is tasked with raising her as his sister.

So when things go tits up in Braavos, Viserys takes the girl with him, clinging on to his one chance at obtaining an army one day.

This explains why Dany isn’t mentioned in the agreement to marry Viserys to Arianne.  Everyone of the signatories being in on the plot.

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's seems pretty clear from Eddard's memory that he was the one that tore the tower down:

Yea. And Maegor built the Red Keep. And Jaehaerys I the Dragonpit. And Brandon the Builder built the Wall. That's how you refer to things. 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It would be unlike modest Ned to take the credit for a large construction crew.

The phrase "Eddard Stark tore down the Tower of Joy" means: The Tower of Joy was torn down on Eddard Stark's command. When someone hears that phrase, they don't expect Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell to tore down a stone structure with his own hands. 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the inconvenient truth of the matter, is that it wasn't much of a tower at all, it being able to be pulled down by a single individual and it's stones being enough to make 8 measly cairns.

There is nothing that would imply The Tower of Joy wasn't a Tower. 

-It's called a tower. 

-Ned remembers it having a round shape. 

-It was torn down on Ned's orders so that there would be material for the cairns. Maybe other reasons as well. Who knows exactly. 

I imagine you never had to manually tore down a wall. Or just knock a few bricks out of their place. I can tell you it's not a no deal. How could a single men tore down even the smallest stone structure? It would take him weeks to do so with a building you imagine. Months, if we consider the semicanonical portrayals of the tower to be at least close in size. 

He needed people to make that possible. And even if the given people weren't present at Lyanna's death, we have no reason to assume the tower was only inhabited by the three kingsguard, Lyanna and Rhaegar. I mean, you do realise they supposedly spent a year there? At least Lyanna and the Kingsguard. They needed to be taken care of. A pregnant woman had to be taken care of. Who provides food, wood, hot water, plus anything Lyanna might've required? The three knights? Were they supposed to help deliver the child as well? I don't think so. And either way, people were required to tore down the building itself, which implies there's been people living somewhere around the tower. 

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9 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yea. And Maegor built the Red Keep. And Jaehaerys I the Dragonpit. And Brandon the Builder built the Wall. That's how you refer to things. 

The phrase "Eddard Stark tore down the Tower of Joy" means: The Tower of Joy was torn down on Eddard Stark's command. When someone hears that phrase, they don't expect Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell to tore down a stone structure with his own hands. 

There is nothing that would imply The Tower of Joy wasn't a Tower. 

-It's called a tower. 

-Ned remembers it having a round shape. 

-It was torn down on Ned's orders so that there would be material for the cairns. Maybe other reasons as well. Who knows exactly. 

I imagine you never had to manually tore down a wall. Or just knock a few bricks out of their place. I can tell you it's not a no deal. How could a single men tore down even the smallest stone structure? It would take him weeks to do so with a building you imagine. Months, if we consider the semicanonical portrayals of the tower to be at least close in size. 

He needed people to make that possible. And even if the given people weren't present at Lyanna's death, we have no reason to assume the tower was only inhabited by the three kingsguard, Lyanna and Rhaegar. I mean, you do realise they supposedly spent a year there? At least Lyanna and the Kingsguard. They needed to be taken care of. A pregnant woman had to be taken care of. Who provides food, wood, hot water, plus anything Lyanna might've required? The three knights? Were they supposed to help deliver the child as well? I don't think so. And either way, people were required to tore down the building itself, which implies there's been people living somewhere around the tower. 

You’re making an assumption that the tower was inhabited or in fact habitable at all.  I’m not making such an assumption.  It very well may be that Mother Nature had already started the desconstruction process that Ned finished.  For all we know the tower of joy may have very well resembled Bran’s Tumbledown Tower:

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The woods and wolves were gone. Bran was back again, down in the damp vault of some ancient watchtower that must have been abandoned thousands of years before. It wasn’t much of a tower now. Even the tumbled stones were so overgrown with moss and ivy that you could hardly see them until you were right on top of them.

And I don’t think that Ned would consider his cairn building on the level of building the Red Keep.  My guess is Ned barking orders at Howland to bring down a tower wouldn’t equate in Ned’s mind a project worthy of attaching only his name to.

Of course, now that you mention Maegor and the Red Keep, are we sure that Ned’s companions were only killed by the Kingsguards???  Perhaps head architect Ned like Maegor before him permanently silenced his fellow, err debuilders to keep his dark secret.  

Or perhaps not.

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Personally, I think this theory is a bit bonkers.  I don't think that Dustin would fit the part age wise to be the man that Dany recalls. 

The Frey family tree is bonkers, but is nonetheless part of the books.   Objections to Dustin being past 35 at the time of his marriage pale hugely in comparison. 

Alot of the dates in the following scenario are hypothetical.  But what would be bonkers, or inconsistent with what we know from the books, about the following scenario?  

182:  Birth of Great Grandpa Dustin.

200:  Birth of Gandpa Dustin, to Great Grandpa Dustin (18).

227:  Birth of Old Lord Dustin (Willam's dad) to Grandpa Dustin (27).

235:  Great Grandpa Dustin (52) has another son by his second wife, who is Willam's great uncle.

237:  Grandpa Dustin (37) has another son, who is Willam's uncle.

247:  Birth of Willam, to Old Lord Dustin (20).

258:  War of the 9-Penny Kings.  Willam's great uncle (23) fights in the war. 

278:  Brandon (16) deflowers Barbrey (16).  He is being fostered by Old Lord Dustin (51) in Barrowtown at the time.

281:  Death of Old Lord Dustin (54).  Willam (34) is the new Lord Dustin.

282:  Willam (35) marries Barbrey (20)

283:  Willam (36) rides to war.  Barbrey (21) is mad, because she thinks Willam should send his Uncle (46) or his Great Uncle (48) instead.

284:  Tower of Joy Incident.  Willam is 37.

289:  Early memories of Dany.  Willam (42) is wasted by illness, and described, in various contexts, described as "old", or "grey", or "wrinkled" (his hands).  

300:  We meet Barbrey (38).  She is described, in various contexts, as "old", or "grey" or "wrinkled" (around eyes and mouth).

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Nor would Dustin just throw away his wife and inheritence to raise her.

Well then, he obviously should have listened to his wife and stayed home.  

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5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

You're just writing long paragraphs telling me I have said nothing, and assuming I can say nothing further.  Which I know is not true.  

No that is not what I'm telling. I'm confronting you with the reality. The likelihood of your crackpot. Which you're clearly unable to accept. But hey, flood me with your juicy heavy arguments. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

No, I think that figure is the average life expectancy at birth.  Not that we have reliable statistics or anything.

No, it's not. Average life expectancy at birth is 30-33 years. Ignore the argument (like you did before with some) if you're unable or unwilling to chech if it's right or not, but don't say 'No' and 'I think'.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Okay.  Sure.  Lady Dustin considers herself "old", and she's probably not too much past 40, if even that.   This is a double edged sword for you.   You cannot tell much about Dany's Willam, merely because 5-year old Dany considered him "old" after he had been wasted by illness.

It's not. Maybe, and just maybe, Dany consider Willam old because he actually is relatively old. The Darry one. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Most 55+ year old men have 45+ year old wives.  But a rich and powerful man whose wife dies in childbirth in the middle ages can remarry.  

Most 55+ year old men didn't remarty. In fact, it is a rarity. Such scenarios are considered a good joke. Even in case of kings. Not to mention someone's fick at the age of 55 or more might not even work anymore properly. And as you pointed out, remarrying is an option, not an obligation. That further decreases the likelihood of a 55 year old man fathering a child on his wife. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

So?  I never offered the apparent age of Dany's Willem as a point in favor of my theory.  This is an alleged DISPROOF offered my opponents.  So now you admit that it ain't NECESSARILY so?  Yeah, that's what I said.

You seem to be confused on different levels here, once even by your own self. 

You claimed Dany's Willam could very well be middleaged Lord Dustin since he was ravaged by sickness, making him look older than he is. 

To that I said sickness doesn't necesarilly make someone old. 

Do you really want me to quote you? (I should ask this, one guy once deleted the context of his comment because of it)

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's not how an author writes fiction.  He can make the facts suit is narrative.  And none of the facts you are mocking are extraordinary enough to raise eyebrows.  For instance, the infant mortality rate is not very relevant to the question of whether the baby born at the Tower of Joy survived or not.

You're again confused? Are you a writer or an artist to know the way of fictional arts? The difference between the sides we are on is that I'm on the side of the narrative plot, whereas you're on your own tinfoil's side. I try to imagine Lord Willam Dustin based on what we know of them and how he served the narrative, whereas you're tryna imagine him the way it fits your imagination, which doesn't fit into the story, not to say that the entire thing you built up would be an irrelevant plot device (you admitted that). 

And you're again confused by your own self. I never brang up the infant mortality rate as a question regarding the child that survived od did not survive the Tower of Joy. And you call me the irrelevant? 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Doesn't say he did it the same day.  

Doesn't say he did it alone either. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Yet the fight was 7 against 3.  Others can show up, but it is less incongruous if some time is allowed to elapse.  

Why would it be anyone else's business? Why would anyone else have weapons? 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

We just had a large discussion about that.

We didn't. You may have had wirh other people. And my opinion is that there was more than enough reason brought up against you to consider your theory a crackpot/joke. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He's the Lord of Barrowtown, famous for its Barrows.   And his widow was upset.

People did not bring back the bones of the ones that died in a campaing. Accept it. I don't write medieval history, you don't write medieval history either. Nor does any of us write the books. You want what, rewrite history so that your theory might fit into the books? Barbrey's furiousness is unrighteuos, yet she was and is upset. That doesn't make her feelings righteous. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

No.  You don't sound angry at all.

I can't sound angry, so no, I don't sound angry. Maybe in your head, which is your business. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

You keep telling me I have said nothing while not addressing what I say.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I didn't say you said nothing. Claiming your arguments have no weight isn't the same as claiming you've not expressed them. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm not sure how romantic it was.  I just noticed the curious focus on riding.  Promising to RIDE his horse home.  And Ned taking the trouble to return the horse, but not bothering to put the bones in an ossuary and strap them to the side of a horse who must make the journey anyhow

You claimed it isn't romantic because it's Barbrey Dustin we're talking about. It would be nice of you to realise that people might change after 20 years and especially grow bitter after losing two men you loved. It is just ridiculous to assume Barbrey was always like this. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Dude.  We've met her.  Anyhow, this was never a point in favor of my theory.  This is YOUR counterargument, that Dustin could not possibly have had any reason for not returning.  Not even loyalty to Rhaegar, a little Targ princess to care for, or a battle injury that leaves him unable to ride.  But the theory is not really based on those guesses either.  I guess if the theory turns out to be true, GRRM will tell us the reasons

We've met her, yes. We also heard her talking about her past self, who was filled with passion. And yes, Dustin could not have had any reasons not to return. If you're recenrly wed, you show the intention of doing something with your life. Why would anyone want to take that away from Lord Dustin? He promised to return, and he showed the sign that he wanted to return (when he departed). No Lord can ask his vassal to give up his dreams, titles and relationships for the sake of fostering a child for 5 years (pointlessly) who then will be thrown aside her 'brother' to roam and beg the Free Cities together. And even if one had the right to do so, Eddard Stark would not do that.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

don't understand the question.  Who is "they"?  

I don't think Viserys was with Dany at the The House with the Red Door.  She has no explicit memories of him there.    She only believes he was there because she conflates her memories of growing up in Dorne with his stories of growing up in Braavos.  After Willam's death, some underling betrayed them, and had Dany sold into slavery; she fell into the hands of the slaver Illyrio, who we know is a dealer in Targ-haired girls.

Meanwhile, Darry was, until his death, always in Braavos.  The original Dany died young, like most of Rhaella's infant children.

And that is fanfiction. You're facing the issue of going against the textual basis, which (no surprise) was written by the creator of the story. Now, the creator of the story decided to include several lines of memories that alone erase any possibility this scenario might have, making it fanfiction, your fanfiction. You think whatever you want, but that doesn't change the nature of the truth.. I don't feel the need to address anything that's wrong with what you wrote down (alrough I will if you ask). 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Illyrio explicitly mentioned "years of planning" are somehow involved here

2 years are years. 100 are as well. Years of planning is simply confirmed by the fact that Varys, even if he didn't save actual baby Aegon, had been funding the education of Young Griff for at least 12-13 years. So much for years of planning. Do I dare ask why the pln required Daenerys and Viserys roaming the free cities and begging? 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Had to?  Why does R+L+J "have to" be true?  Or is there one standard for orthodox theories and another for heretical ones? 

Dude, RLJ has nothing to do with this. I just said show me the reasons on why Daenerys living apart from Viserys had to be a thing. Why would it? What difference did it make?  How did the plot benefit from it, so it was worth including and executing all this stuff? 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Viserys grew up with Darry in Braavos

That much is true. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

But Dany's lemon tree; Dany's memories of barefoot carefree innocent life; the scents from the Western Market that reminded Dany of home; Dany's memories of Viserys tormenting her regarding her identity; Viserys worrying that Dany did not look the part; Viserys' years of planning in collusion with a slaver dealing in Targ haired girls, all suggest that Dany's earliest memories are not of Braavos but of somewhere else

The single thing that indicates Daenerys might not hsve grown up in Braavor is the lemontree. For all we know, that might be a mistake George made, just as Dany's Tyroshi accent. But that doesn't imply Viserys and Daenerys grew up apart. All the other things you mention are not things that actually happened. I refer about your speculation (which isn't a speculation, but rather addressing things as if they were facts) regarding Viserys. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Sounds like you are asking me to write essays for you.  But you know, I don't actually owe you my time, and you did not even say "Please".  Moreover, you seem militantly determined to ignore the things I have already said, and tell me I have said nothing

You do as you wish. All I have left to say is that I can't wait to get TWOW to tell you once again just how wrong you are.  Goodnight, mister. 

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23 hours ago, corbon said:

No. People die.

This was after the fall of King's Landing. Ned didn't even have to fight at Storm's End. Ned was not leading an army after Storm's End, and didn't have to. And it can make sense to send out smaller units for skirmishing purposes, but 3 men is too small even for that. Dividing it down even further? Why even call it a skirmish at that point?

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the collective importance of those legends Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent and the Lord Commander, Ser Gerold Hightower

All of whom would indeed have entries in the White Book specifying how they died rather than shrugged off.

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Ned simply doesn't talk.

Except that he tells his son about Arthur Dayne and how Howland Reed saved Ned from him. He never shuts down anyone who asks about that. It's ASHARA he refused to talk about.

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That is a 'secret' that is already not just out and noticed, its being actively gossiped upon.

The single combat between Ned & Arthur is explicitly referred to by Yandel as rumored. And in the very passage where Cat remembers the gossip about Ashara the servants ALSO gossip about Arthur Dayne. But Ned only shuts down talk about the former.

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its not Ashara's name that Ned has interest in

He explicitly asks where Cat heard that name, and then forbids any mention of her specifically. Which is why Ned's kids haven't heard of her at all, even outside the context of her possibly being Jon's mother. And, yes, Ned's reticence to talk about Jon's mother motivates that, but the question of Jon's parentage is something that Ned can't actually stop from naturally arising from his kids if nothing else. Forbidding them from hearing certain names is something he can do.

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The name of a wetnurse that is well known at Starfall and probably Winterfell, is no secret

Not simply a random wetnurse, Ned is explicitly taking part in the conversation of who Jon's mother is by specifying one woman... the same woman named by Ned Dayne. If Ned just categorically refused to entertain any possibility, that would be one thing, but instead he names one woman and refuses mention of Ashara. And of course Ashara's name isn't a secret among the servants of Winterfell either, as Harwin heard of her. It's Ned's kids who don't know about her.

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That little bit of info isn't a secret. Wylla's an actual person who nursed Jon for some time, almost certainly at Starfall during Ned's visit and probably at Winterfell as well

Ned doesn't simply know her as Jon's wetnurse, he knows her as Jon's mother. And Ned also named her as Jon's mother.

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That Bran wished he had asked Ned one specific thing

He wished he'd asked Ned about what Ned meant by the last thing Ned said. "What do you mean by that" is so non-specific a question you could use it in reply to anything anyone says. And I suppose that means someone will reply to this with that :)

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doesn't mean he didn't ask any other questions or push Ned in any way

What else could he have asked that would make him wish he'd asked what Ned meant by that instead!? And if Ned was refusing to answer any questions, WHY would Brandon think asking some other question would have worked out differently?

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The fact remains the Ned would say no more. And that indicates something more than just the immediate cessation of conversation.

Immediate cessation of the conversation is exactly what it indicates.

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People can be lost on missions

Unimportant people can, certainly. The KG are not like that. It's required that their lives be written down in the White Book.

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They may be presumed dead, and replaced

Can you give any examples of that happening? There have been multiple civil wars in Westeros, after all.

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Robert was a rebel, the start of a new Dynasty. He started a new Kingsguard. He didn't have to keep any of the old KG, but he chose to keep Jaime and Selmy, each for different reasons.

No KG has ever been demoted before Selmy. They die a KG, or get their white cloaks removed in exchange for a black one if they're sent to the Wall like Lucamore. Even Varys & Pycelle stayed on the Small Council, and they didn't take an oath to stay there for a lifetime.

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During the Dance of the Dragoons both Aegon and Rhaenyra had Kings/Queensguards and Visery I's KG was split between them.

Robert didn't do that, which is why he had "had five vacancies to fill all at once". Of course, he hadn't declared himself to be king until roughly the Trident, but he clearly didn't regard it to be sufficient to remove someone as KG if they remained loyalists like Selmy & Jaime. After all... they swore a holy oath and had already been serving Aerys.

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Second, Ned is already aware that there has been a rumour about him killing Arthur Dayne in single combat (and he didn't try to shut this one down, that we know of - its clearly linked to the return of Dawn*, not Jon's parentage).

He was aware of the rumors about Ashara Dayne, but successfully shut those down and prevented his kids from hearing. And the very rumors Cat recalls hearing involved Ned returning Arthur's sword to Ashara. But people aren't allowed to say who Ned returned Dawn to!

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* And thats the key point. Ned vs Arthur is linked to 'Dawns return'. not 'ToJ showdown'. Dawns return is not a secret. ToJ showdown is.

Per the World of Ice and Fire, the fight against all three remaining KG isn't. You have to deny the text, whereas there's nothing in the text I have to deny.

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One obscure line in an unrelated passage.

What makes it "obscure" or "unrelated"? It's not like The World of Ice and Fire is the multi-volume Encyclopedia Britannica.

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We are discussing whether this might be in fact a mistake by the editors of aWoIaF or not.

That's your stretch to save your interpretation at odds with the text. There have been mistakes that got through, line the color of Renly's eyes or a horse or Jeyne Westerling's hip size. GRRM is not pumping out so much content he can't read everything with his name on it, and wouldn't simply forget the deaths of the KG is supposed to be a secret.

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it doesn't appear to have any potential reasonable source

Ned & Howland both survived the battle, they went to Starfall to return the sword and tell Ashara, then to KL to tell Robert about Lyanna. Robert naming new KGs would have been public knowledge, and involved people knowing that all three unaccounted for KG were now accounted for. It's just you insisting those other two must have been a secret despite the lack of any evidence for that.

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it fails several logical tests

Only your "logic" of it contradicting your fallacious premise.

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read what Ned actually said

"I will learn where you heard that name".

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if Lyanna dies at ToJ and Ned acquired Jon there (which all indications point to) then the fight at ToJ touches on that.

The same thing would hold if just Arthur died there, but we know Ned is willing to talk about him & Howland fighting Arthur without treating it as any sort of secret.

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IMO most people simply don't know what happened to Whent and Hightower

No one ever wonders about it, even though we've had POV chapters from multiple Lords Commander of the KG, responsible for the White Book. We've heard of rumors about whether Ned killed Arthur in single combat, rumors about Jon's mother, but no gossip about those other two KG you think are secrets.

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Both were last seen (separately) months and  over a year before the war ended, were sent or went on missions away from KL

If they were sent into hostile territory and killed, you think people wouldn't have heard about that? There are songs about Arryk vs Erryk, and we know the fates of their brother KG sent on such missions around the Dance.

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Yes. Not that Arthur is different from the other two, but that each, alone, is just a guy doing something unknown.

A KG is not "just a guy". And Arthur in particular was a legendary figure, the best swordsman alive who (per GRRM) would even have the edge over Selmy when wielding Dawn.

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not at Dragonstone with the last of the dynasty?

Aerys didn't send any KG there when he sent the last of his dynasty.

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But knowing all three KG were there, does give away that there is a huge something secret.

Why is that so different from knowing Arthur was there while 2 KG were unaccounted for?

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Dustin was a youngish man, only wed 6 months, with a great uncle who could have gone to war in his place.

Sarcasm doesn't travel well over text, sorry. Arthur & the two unaccounted for KG dying around the same time after all the battles had already been fought is too much of a coincidence for people not to assume they're related.

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I doubt anything else Ned said to her was about the time and place

We know he said at least one thing about the place: the red mountains of Dorne. Where no battles in Robert's rebellion were fought.

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Sounds like pretty much everything he told her about her husband's death specifically.

I don't know how you get that it's "everything", it's her talking about how Ned didn't bring back her husband's bones so she intends to disrespect Ned's bones.

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We don't know that for all of them.

Name one who died during a civil war under unknown circumstances.

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You don't think that they are capable of changing armour? Of moving about inconspicuously when on a mission?

The KG are normally supposed to be visible & prestigious. They are famed for their honor & chivalry. Sneaking about in disguise is an assignment for different people, of which Aerys would have had plenty prior to at least the Trident.

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And whose living memory is it?

An entire generation of people.

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Because they follow and fit the text

Except when you decide the text must be mistaken because it contradicts your theory.

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my personal tests of textual reference, logic and probability

Tests which exclude the nobodies who wrote The World of Ice and Fire. They need to read your forum posts.

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Which kinda begs the question

Raises the question. Begging the question is a logical fallacy.

22 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

If that's a contradiction, it is not my problem.

No, if it doesn't make sense to @corbon, it's the TEXT that's wrong. And I say that as someone who also doesn't find your theory credible.

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7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I'm confronting you with the reality. 

I don't find your arguments convincing.  With all due respect.

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It's not. Maybe, and just maybe, Dany consider Willam old because he actually is relatively old. The Darry one. 

I don't know how old Darry is either.

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Most 55+ year old men didn't remarry.

Some do.  Who cares about "most"?  You can't disprove something on the basis of averages.

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Not to mention someone's fick at the age of 55 or more might not even work anymore properly.

Some do.  Some don't.  Jon Arryn sired his firstborn son in his 70s, on his third bride.

Come to think of it, Lysa Arryn had to settle for an old man as a husband, partly because she allowed herself to be deflowered before marriage.  Could something similar have happened to Lady Dustin, who let herself be deflowered by Brandon?  Not that I have any need to suppose that Willam was anything near as old as Jon Arryn.  

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And as you pointed out, remarrying is an option, not an obligation.

I can easily construct a plausible scenario where there is no remarriage.  For example Jon Snow is older than Dany, even though prevailing theories make Dany Jon's aunt.  No remarriage was involved there.

But of course, there is no need to rule out remarriage either.  Such things do happen.  You are far too aggressive in ruling out plausible possibilities, merely because they do not fit with what you choose to believe.  

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You claimed Dany's Willam could very well be middleaged Lord Dustin since he was ravaged by sickness, making him look older than he is. 

To that I said sickness doesn't necesarilly make someone old.

We seem to agree.  Sickness does not necessarily make someone look older.  But it plausible could make someone look older.   

Hence, the theory is plausible.  GRRM can plausibly make Willam any age he likes, and can also, if he likes, make him look older than he actually is.

And until and unless GRRM confirms it, it is only a theory.  I never offered absolute proof, and demands for absolute proof are silly.

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You're again confused? Are you a writer or an artist to know the way of fictional arts? The difference between the sides we are on is that I'm on the side of the narrative plot, whereas you're on your own tinfoil's side. I try to imagine Lord Willam Dustin based on what we know of them and how he served the narrative, whereas you're tryna imagine him the way it fits your imagination, which doesn't fit into the story, not to say that the entire thing you built up would be an irrelevant plot device (you admitted that). 

The above paragraph contains nothing even remotely resembling a rational point.

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And you're again confused by your own self. I never brang up the infant mortality rate as a question regarding the child that survived od did not survive the Tower of Joy. And you call me the irrelevant? 

No.  You did not bring it up.  I did.  The point went over your head.  Never mind.

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People did not bring back the bones of the ones that died in a campaign.

They were not Lords of Barrowtown.   He took the trouble to return the horse.  Why not load the bones on the horse?  No, it does not NECESSARILY mean anything.  But by that standard, R+L=J is a complete bunk theory as well.

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Accept it.

I accept it.  I accepted it long ago, above, in this discussion.  Nobody ever claimed that all people who die on campaign have their bones returned.

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I didn't say you said nothing. Claiming your arguments have no weight isn't the same as claiming you've not expressed them. 

It's all the same thing to me.  If you don't address my points we might as well end the discussion.

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You claimed it isn't romantic because it's Barbrey Dustin we're talking about. It would be nice of you to realise that people might change after 20 years and especially grow bitter after losing two men you loved. It is just ridiculous to assume Barbrey was always like this. 

I didn't assume anything or claim anything.  This was YOUR argument, and I'm the one pointing out "It ain't necessarily so."

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And yes, Dustin could not have had any reasons not to return.

He could have had any number reasons not to return.  I'm not making assumptions.  You are.  

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2 years are years. 100 are as well.

Well then, 8 years fits well enough too.  In any event, Illyrio's involvement preceded their stay at his manse.

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Do I dare ask why the pln required Daenerys and Viserys roaming the free cities and begging? 

They need to tour the Free Cities, with Dany in Tow, to establish Dany's identity.  And the Pentoshi dealer in Lysene slaves cannot openly provide them with financial support before this time, because otherwise folks might wonder where Dany really came from.  

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Dude, RLJ has nothing to do with this. I just said show me the reasons on why Daenerys living apart from Viserys had to be a thing.

Nothing "has to" be a thing.  These are only theories.  R+L=J does not "have to" be a thing either.     I honestly don't understand what you are trying to ask.

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Why would it? What difference did it make?  How did the plot benefit from it, so it was worth including and executing all this stuff? 

What are you even asking?  The plot required a child.  The original child was dead or otherwise unavailable.  So a child had to be obtained.  So Viserys went to Illyrio and got himself a "sister", who was not his real sister.  Since she was not his real sister before he obtained her, naturally they were living apart prior to his acquisition of her.

How did our Dany fall into Illyrio's hands?  Probably someone sold her, after Willam was no longer around to protect her.  Valyrian-featured slave girls are valuable.

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The single thing that indicates Daenerys might not hsve grown up in Braavor is the lemontree. 

That "single thing" is actually a plethora of clues.  GRRM really hammers it.  Repeatedly.

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For all we know, that might be a mistake George made,

Nope.  He confirms that it is significant and points to something:

FAN:  Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM:  Very perceptive of you.  Yes, it does point to ... well, that would be telling.

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6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I don't find your arguments convincing.  With all due respect.

You find noone's arguments convincing. Barely ever anyone agrees with you because your theories are contradictionary to the textual basis. I'm not saying that, multiple people are saying that. At this point you don't present yourself as a reasonable man. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I don't know how old Darry is either.

But we know he is relatively old. He does not only appear old, he is/was. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Some do.  Who cares about "most"?  You can't disprove something on the basis of averages.

You don't. That's for sure. And note this, because this is the last time I'm gonna tell you: We are not disproving each other, since neither of us can. We are discussing the likelihood of our versions. That argument above makes your story even less likely. Several of your point have little to no chance of being true. That exponentially decreases the likelihood of your theory. You remember my example with those odds? When you place a bet on a bet? You're doing that. I don't. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Some do.  Some don't.  Jon Arryn sired his firstborn son in his 70s, on his third bride.

Come to think of it, Lysa Arryn had to settle for an old man as a husband, partly because she allowed herself to be deflowered before marriage.  Could something similar have happened to Lady Dustin, who let herself be deflowered by Brandon?  Not that I have any need to suppose that Willam was anything near as old as Jon Arryn.  

The only reason we still consider Jon Arryn being the father of Robert is the health issues Robert faces from the day of his birth, which would imply his father was unhealthy or old when he sired him. Otherwise, Littlefinger having an affair with Lysa is a confirmed thing. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

But of course, there is no need to rule out remarriage either.  Such things do happen.  You are far too aggressive in ruling out plausible possibilities, merely because they do not fit with what you choose to believe.  

I'm not agressive. I'm facing you with the likelihood of your stupid theory. We have to assume for the sake of your ideas that many scenarios played out against the rule. You really don't see the problem with that? 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

We seem to agree.  Sickness does not necessarily make someone look older.  But it plausible could make someone look older.   

Hence, the theory is plausible.  GRRM can plausibly make Willam any age he likes, and can also, if he likes, make him look older than he actually is.

And until and unless GRRM confirms it, it is only a theory.  I never offered absolute proof, and demands for absolute proof are silly.

No. It can possibly make someone look older (altough I don't know which kind of sickness makes your hand wrinkly, and I was biology major in high school), making it a possibility. Not a plausibility. 

I also did not demand absolute peoof at any moment. I pointed out (several times) that none of us has absolute proof, hence we dicuss the likelihood of certain things.

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

The above paragraph contains nothing even remotely resembling a rational point.

Ok. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

No.  You did not bring it up.  I did.  The point went over your head.  Never mind.

You never discussed with me anything like that. Yes, I checked. You may have talked about it with someone else. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

They were not Lords of Barrowtown.   He took the trouble to return the horse.  Why not load the bones on the horse?  No, it does not NECESSARILY mean anything.  But by that standard, R+L=J is a complete bunk theory as well.

Why would he have to? Returning bones isn't a requirement. And wasn't a trending thing to do either. The fact that Ned brang back the horse may indicate he knew about the promise Lord Dustin made, or was asked by a dying Lord Dustin to do so. 

Either way, I'm not sure why you have to bring up RLJ all the time. I'm not here to discuss that (nor am I interested in discussing the plausibility of it). 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I accept it.  I accepted it long ago, above, in this discussion.  Nobody ever claimed that all people who die on campaign have their bones returned.

Then act like you did it. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

It's all the same thing to me.  If you don't address my points we might as well end the discussion.

It ain't my problem if it's the same to you. And so far I've been trying to address all your points, whereas you, my friend, are often leave certain point of my reply hanging. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I didn't assume anything or claim anything.  This was YOUR argument, and I'm the one pointing out "It ain't necessarily so."

You're contradicting yourself. I said this is a romantic scenario, you said you don't think it is, based on what Barbres Dustin is like 20 years later. Lying doesn't benefit the conversation. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He could have had any number reasons not to return.  I'm not making assumptions.  You are.  

You're really not. You present your fanfiction as counterargument. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well then, 8 years fits well enough too.  In any event, Illyrio's involvement preceded their stay at his manse.

In any event, Illyrio's confirmed involvement (in regards of Daenerys and Viserys) starts when he accepts them into his mansion. Aegon is a different matter. That is confirmed to have been at least 14 years of involvement, even more, if Aegon isn't fake. And all that being said, you didn't present any reason why shouldn't a fDany gain credibility in a rich man's house instead of begging at the streets (to which noone raised an eyebrow). 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

What are you even asking?  The plot required a child.  The original child was dead or otherwise unavailable.  So a child had to be obtained.  So Viserys went to Illyrio and got himself a "sister", who was not his real sister.  Since she was not his real sister before he obtained her, naturally they were living apart prior to his acquisition of her.

How did our Dany fall into Illyrio's hands?  Probably someone sold her, after Willam was no longer around to protect her.  Valyrian-featured slave girls are valuable.

Your plot required whatever you want. The actual books did not. Why you present a headcanon/fanfiction/theory as actual plot? This is not the place for that. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nothing "has to" be a thing.  These are only theories.  R+L=J does not "have to" be a thing either.     I honestly don't understand what you are trying to ask.

Then maybe start making an order in your head. I asked what does RLJ have to do in our discussion. The right answer is nothing. 

And on the top of that, start thinking the way you advice to others.

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nope.  He confirms that it is significant and points to something:

FAN:  Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM:  Very perceptive of you.  Yes, it does point to ... well, that would be telling.

I live in a temperate continental climate. Every winter, the temperature goes below - 20 Celsius. At summer, it can go above +40 Celsius. That doesn't stop citrus trees from surviving here under the naked sky. Nor does it stop it from producing fruits. Lemon trees are obviously unusual, but a single lemon tree doesn't make my area the meditereanean. A lemon tree has every chance to live in the garden of a random Braavosi dude, and even producing lemons in a summer that may last an entire decade. 

But not gonna lie, I don't think you are worth arguing with about this (and many other things), so I'm not gonna.  

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8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You find noone's arguments convincing. Barely ever anyone agrees with you because your theories are contradictionary to the textual basis. I'm not saying that, multiple people are saying that. At this point you don't present yourself as a reasonable man. 

You just used the lemming argument.  That makes you a lemming!  For shame. Think for yourself and don't appeal to the mob.  If my theories are contradictory point out the contradictions.

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But we know he is relatively old. He does not only appear old, he is/was. 

For all I know, Darry and Dustin could both be 42 in 289.  And if you think that's too young, they could both be 47.  Or 52.  And if you start with the assumption that Darry is the man in Dany's memories, you are not really addressing my theory.  You are assuming it wrong, and then presenting me with a circular argument.

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You don't. That's for sure. And note this, because this is the last time I'm gonna tell you: We are not disproving each other, since neither of us can. We are discussing the likelihood of our versions. That argument above makes your story even less likely. Several of your point have little to no chance of being true. That exponentially decreases the likelihood of your theory. You remember my example with those odds? When you place a bet on a bet? You're doing that. I don't. 

It's not about calculating odds in real world scenarios.  It's about trying to outguess, on the basis of subtle clues, an author who likes to surprise his readers.

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The only reason we still consider Jon Arryn being the father of Robert is the health issues Robert faces from the day of his birth, which would imply his father was unhealthy or old when he sired him. Otherwise, Littlefinger having an affair with Lysa is a confirmed thing. 

Littlefinger is not the father of winged-knight-flappy-boy.  Even Lysa does not think this, though she would be happy to.  Anyhow, even if you're right about Littlefinger being the true sire, who cares?  For our purposes, it is still possible for a 50+ man to be the legal sire of child in the Martinverse.  Whether a DNA test would say differently is completely beside the point.

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I'm not aggressive. I'm facing you with the likelihood of your stupid theory. We have to assume for the sake of your ideas that many scenarios played out against the rule. You really don't see the problem with that?

With all due respect, I don't see a rational point of argument in the above sentence.  I just see you being confrontational and aggressive, and frustrated that I refuse to see the merits in your arguments.  Maybe you should just walk away, if you can't cope.

Please address yourself to the scenario I gave @Frey family reunionand tell me why it is implausible or what rules it breaks (keeping in mind that I could present any number of alternative scenarios which could achieve the same results).  If GRRM were to present such a family tree, no-one would bat an eye. 

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No. It can possibly make someone look older (altough I don't know which kind of sickness makes your hand wrinkly, and I was biology major in high school), making it a possibility. Not a plausibility. 

WTF is implausible about a 42 year old having wrinkled hands?  And if that really bothers you, what is stopping GRRM from making him 47?   The scenario I gave @Frey family reunionmakes him 42, but I would have no problem making him 47 or even 53.  Would you like me to show you?  These quibbles are so irrelevant because GRRM can make Willam Dustin 70 if he wants to, and you will find nothing in the books proving otherwise.

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I also did not demand absolute peoof at any moment. I pointed out (several times) that none of us has absolute proof, hence we discuss the likelihood of certain things.

And again, your approach is unconvincing to me.  If I were calculate on the basis of real-world logic, then I would say that the baby born to Lyanna at the time of the TOJ incident probably did not survive.

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Why would he have to? Returning bones isn't a requirement. And wasn't a trending thing to do either. The fact that Ned brang back the horse may indicate he knew about the promise Lord Dustin made, or was asked by a dying Lord Dustin to do so. 

Dude.  Look at it this way.  If GRRM later reveals that Willam Dustin lived on for 5 years, Ned failure to return his bones will be seen, in retrospect as a clue.   Please lets stop going around in circles.  I never presented it as absolute proof of anything.

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Either way, I'm not sure why you have to bring up RLJ all the time.

Because it could not survive the standards you apply.  It's not about logic.  The difference is that one is popular (on this forum, anyway) and the other is not.

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Then act like you did it. 

I over 21 years of age (much so, in fact), and you are not my mom.  Don't give me orders.  I keep telling you I am happy to agree to disagree.  If you cannot handle that, then you are the one with the problem.

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You're contradicting yourself. I said this is a romantic scenario, you said you don't think it is, based on what Barbres Dustin is like 20 years later. Lying doesn't benefit the conversation. 

Now you are calling me a liar.   Merely because I refused to agree that I had the burden of proof on alleged disproof that YOU raised.

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You're really not. You present your fanfiction as counterargument. 

What in fact happens is that you argue from ignorance, and then when I point out that you do not know what you are claiming and that there are other possibilities, you accuse me of writing fan fiction.

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In any event, Illyrio's confirmed involvement (in regards of Daenerys and Viserys) starts when he accepts them into his mansion.

His line to Tyrion, about spoiling years of planning, implies earlier involvement.  It is a plausible inference, but not an absolute one.  You can argue around it if you like.

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Aegon is a different matter. That is confirmed to have been at least 14 years of involvement, even more, if Aegon isn't fake.

Okay.  That's one way around it.  But it seems on its face to be weak and arbitrary.  How would Viserys bonking his own 13-year old sister spoil years of planning with f(Aegon)?

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And all that being said, you didn't present any reason why shouldn't a fDany gain credibility in a rich man's house instead of begging at the streets (to which noone raised an eyebrow). 

I answered this already.  Also, there was no "begging in the streets".

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Your plot required whatever you want. The actual books did not. Why you present a headcanon/fanfiction/theory as actual plot? This is not the place for that. 

Then maybe start making an order in your head. I asked what does RLJ have to do in our discussion. The right answer is nothing. 

And on the top of that, start thinking the way you advice to others.

No points to respond to here.  But if I snip them, you will accuse me of evasion, no doubt.

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10 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I live in a temperate continental climate. Every winter, the temperature goes below - 20 Celsius. At summer, it can go above +40 Celsius. That doesn't stop citrus trees from surviving here under the naked sky. Nor does it stop it from producing fruits. Lemon trees are obviously unusual, but a single lemon tree doesn't make my area the meditereanean. A lemon tree has every chance to live in the garden of a random Braavosi dude, and even producing lemons in a summer that may last an entire decade. 

You are arguing against the author because your ego really is that big.   Read again, and weep:

FAN:  Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM:  Very perceptive of you.  Yes, it does point to ... well, that would be telling.

GRRM says there is a discrepancy, and it's intentional, and it points to something significant.  You're just trying to brush that away.  It is up to GRRM to say where lemons grow in Westeros, and the books (even before GRRM clarified that the discrepancy was significant) make clear that lemons do not (normally) grow in Braavos, nor even as far north as Kings Landing. 

What the discrepancy points to is for each of us to guess.  Maybe it's a clue that the Sealord's Palace has a glowing magical dragon who provides the magical equivalent of artificial sunlight to nearby plants, disproving the adage that dragons don't grow trees.  But on the whole, I think it's more likely a clue that Dany's earliest memories are not of Braavos, and that she has been lied to about her past.  Feel free to suggest other alternatives.  But don't just brush aside the author's own words.

Westerosi lemons don't have to be exactly like real-world lemons, making real-world arguments of minimal relevance, except where consistent with the books.  Even so, your real-world arguments are also off base in any event.  You avoided saying where you lived, no doubt for the excellent reason that it is nothing like Braavos.   Temperature issues aside, lemon trees (yes, even real-world ones) need alot of sunlight.  Braavos is to fog and cloud cover extremes what Gregor Clegane is to human height extremes.  And it is obviously like this year round, else it could hardly hide the city from Valyrian dragonriders as it did historically. And of course anyone so irrational as to argue against the author's own words is not going to be capable of making rational assessments about real-world lemons either.  They will offer potted plants on balconies, placed outside in summer, as evidence; or they will show trees growing next to modern houses, their roots shielded from winter extremes by proximity to its central heating.

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On 10/4/2021 at 3:28 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Yes on the first point, I'm not sure where you come up with the second point though.  Is there anything in the text to suggest that Rhaegar had met the GOHH?

Also Summerhall is nowhere near High Heart.  Why would Rhaegar have come across the Ghost of High Heart at Summerhall?  It seems doubtful that she would have hung around the site that gave her such grief.

 

It's speculation, and largely inspired by an observation of patterns referenced in my Puppets of Fire and Ice essay, linked in my sig. However it's not entirely wild speculation purely based on speculative matching of literary patterns.

 

Aemon reported that Rhaegar became interested in the PTWP prophecy that the prince would be born into the line of Aerys and Rhaella, and came to believe it would be his son Aegon. That prophecy came from the Wood Witch Jenny of Oldstones brought with her to Summerhall and it seems fairly clear that GoHH is that Wood Witch. So while there is no direct evidence that Rhaegar and GoHH ever met, given that Rhaegar became interested in her prophecy and at some point changed his mind about its interpretation for reason that are never given, it's hardly a stretch to think that he would have sought her out and talked with her at some point.

 

Why Summerhall? Well that part is unnecessary -- Rhaegar may have visited her at HH also. However it was a place that Rhaegar seems to have considered if not with grief then at least with melancholy too, but we know he used to go and play his harp there often. GoHH might have visited there for similar reasons.

 

It has been widely speculated that Jenny's song, which GoHH was obsessed with, might be the sad song Rhaegar played at the tourney of Harrenhal that made Lyanna cry, and it's a likely song for Rhaegar to have known and played -- some have suggested he might even be the singer who wrote it. We might ask where GoHH first heard it.

 

Two chapters before we learn about the Tourney at Harrenhal and the sad song, and about 20 before we see Tom singing Jenny's Song to GoHH, Tom sings a song at Acorn Hall which is not named, but which is about a love affair between some high-born prince and his wild "forest lass",  which is given as a clear parallel to Arya, who had just turned up covered in dirt after play-fighting with Gendry. The song fits rather nicely with Jenny of Oldstones who is remembered as 'Jenny of Oldstones with the flowers in her hair' while the song includes the lines 'I'll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass..." and this may well be Jenny's Song.  Another line in the song refers to the girl in it as "the maiden of the tree", which brings to mind 'The Knight of the Laughing Tree.' It all ties together rather neatly. 

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7 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

You are arguing against the author because your ego really is that big.   Read again, and weep:

FAN:  Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM:  Very perceptive of you.  Yes, it does point to ... well, that would be telling.

GRRM says there is a discrepancy, and it's intentional, and it points to something significant. 

 

Has he said that it's intentional or significant? In the first draft of GoT when it was going to be a trilogy, Dany was raised in Tyrosh, not Braavos. The mention of her having a Tyroshi accent seems to be a leftover from this. Is it not also possible that the lemon tree incident is also a leftover from this?

 

In the message you quote above, GRRM leaves blank what it points to -- the words omitted by the ellipsis might be 'her memories of her childhood actually being from somewhere other than Braavos', but equally they might be 'her being raised in the grounds of the Sealord's palace' or even 'an earlier draft when she was raised in Tyrosh and I forgot to change the details' for all that is indicated there. 

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