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Who's "they" ?


Falcon2909

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13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The debate over whether or not lemon trees can or cannot grow in Braavos's climate misses the real point. 

Not according to GRRM.  He has confirmed that lemon trees should not (normally) grow in Braavos due to climate, that this is significant, and that it points to something spoilerish.  I'm sure there are other "real points", but GRRM is now on record that this is a "real point" too.

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The situation is sufficiently ambiguous that, if GRRM wants lemons to grow in Braavos, they will, and if he doesn't, they won't. 

If they do grow in Braavos, it is for a spoilerish reason, that the climate discrepancy points to.  Per GRRM.

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The main point is the connection of lemons to Dorne.  Lemons are mentioned as coming from Drone repeatedly - and recently. 

Sure.

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

And I say this as someone who doesn't like "lemongate" and firmly believes that Daenerys is who she appears to be.

I would define Lemongate as merely that there is indeed a discrepancy with the lemon tree being in Braavos, and that this is a clue pointing to something.  Which GRRM has now confirmed.

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

This does not mean that the house is actually in Dorne. 

Sure.  It could point to magic sunlamps  and/or volcanic caves in Braavos that heat the soil and serve as sunlight substitute.  Dunno how this will advance the plot.   But whatever.

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

It could be a house in Braavos owned by a well-off Dornishman (wealthy merchant, envoy, etc.) who wanted a lemon tree in his backyard and went to the trouble of cultivating one.  someone like that could have hosted Viserys and Daenerys for a time, with Darry the glue holding things together.  He dies, and they have to leave. 

This does not sound very spoilerish to me.  Sounds like an attempt to explain it away, rather than an attempt to explain it.  But who knows?  Maybe it will sound better when GRRM writes it.

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

What I don't think it indicates is that Dany is any kind of changeling. 

Okay, and I'm perfectly fine with folks trying to find alternate theories.

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

There is no point to that. If she dies as a young girl, you hold a funeral and move on.  She isn't that important; essentially, she's surplus.  I certainly don't buy the notion that Viserys is going to take on a changeling he has to spend money on to clothe, feed, house, educate and generally take care of on the off chance that, in ten years or so, he might be able to marry off to someone who might be able to put together an army that Viserys might be able to use to take back Westeros. 

Why did he do it then?  The answer is obviously not because he really did love her as a brother should love a sister.  Why should it make a difference if she is a changeling or not?

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I don't see the point of having sex with her unless she really is his sister (yes, that is as strange to write as it is to read). 

Yeah, it is a strange thing to write.  Illyrio got horney for her too.  Does this prove she is Illyrio's sister?

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33 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Why did he do it then?  The answer is obviously not because he really did love her as a brother should love a sister.  Why should it make a difference if she is a changeling or not?

It's one thing to support a family member you are already stuck with and societally obligated to support.  It is quite another to accept a stranger foisted upon you for no immediately useful purpose.  Plus, he was planning to marry Daenerys himself when she got old enough.  It was only when Drogo came along, with his purported army, that Viserys changed his mind on that.  Sort of.

Plus, I don't know where they would get a changeling from.  I am firmly of the  belief that Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Even if Daenerys was their child (a twin, for example), I can't imagine Ned going along with sending her to Viserys.  The most likely landing spots if she was Lyanna's would be Greywater Watch and Starfall, and I can't imagine them doing it either, especially since she would likely be safe in either location.  Trying to suggest other parents is a stretch, to put it mildly.  It's already a stretch, as it is.

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17 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not according to GRRM.  He has confirmed that lemon trees should not (normally) grow in Braavos due to climate, that this is significant, and that it points to something spoilerish. 

Yes. He noted that it was perceptive of a questioner to realise that Bravos is not a natural clime for lemon trees.
He indicated that the presence of a lemon tree in Dany's memories does point to something, but doesn't want to say what. That doesn't mean its a new reveal in a future book, he just refuses to confirm what it means.

17 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I would define Lemongate as merely that there is indeed a discrepancy with the lemon tree being in Braavos, and that this is a clue pointing to something.  Which GRRM has now confirmed.

Thats at odds with almost all 'lemongate' push-ers.

Almost nobody denies that GRRM has agreed that lemons are not natural to Bravos' climate, and more importantly, the lemon tree is not random but has some symbolic significance which he doesn't wish to reveal as yet.
Sometimes people get caught up in the specifics they are discussing and forget to keep this clear, but if its broken down that simply, without the extra narrative stresses that usually get added during discussions, I don't think there are many takers against this at all.

But those pushing 'lemongate' commonly refuse to accept explanations that are not their own, and commonly insistently push false points while ignoring the actual data when it is pointed out to them.

ADWD revealed a significant Dornish plot involving Bravos at the time of Dany's life when Bravos was supposedly where she lived.
 - the above definition of Lemongate has been absolutely satisfied
 - alternative theories about Dany's past not being at Bravos have been badly damaged 

Alternative theories remain possible, arguably, but "lemongate" does nothing to advance them and so far, no one pushing them has provided a solid textual foundation for their alternate theory and every such theory has ignored far solid-er evidence against it than its used for it.

1 minute ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I think there's probably something to Lemongate as far as Dany's memories not fully or accurately reflecting her actual childhood,

Most people's don't, especially if you only get to see inside their head a tiny fraction of the time, so only see specific memories relevant to authorial plots.

There is not a single thing in her memories that is inconsistent with what we are told of her story so far.

 

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Yes. He noted that it was perceptive of a questioner to realise that Bravos is not a natural clime for lemon trees.

No, he praised as perceptive that citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate

1 hour ago, corbon said:

He indicated that the presence of a lemon tree in Dany's memories does point to something,

No, he said that "it", that is, the "discrepancy" points to something.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

but doesn't want to say what. That doesn't mean its a new reveal in a future book, he just refuses to confirm what it means.

"Yes" in this context either means, at bare minimum, "yes the discrepancy is significant" .  The words "that would be telling" also promise some kind of future revelation.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

the lemon tree is not random but has some symbolic significance which he doesn't wish to reveal as yet.

That does not sound like it has anything to do with a discrepancy.  What, specifically, is your symbolism theory?  Most symbolism theories are just about the lemon tree, not about the discrepancy.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

ADWD revealed a significant Dornish plot involving Bravos at the time of Dany's life when Bravos was supposedly where she lived.
 - the above definition of Lemongate has been absolutely satisfied
 - alternative theories about Dany's past not being at Bravos have been badly damaged 

I see.  So, according to you, when GRRM said "that would be telling" what he really meant was "I already told you all about it in ADWD and there is nothing more to tell"

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2 hours ago, Nevets said:

It's one thing to support a family member you are already stuck with and societally obligated to support.  It is quite another to accept a stranger foisted upon you for no immediately useful purpose. 

Viserys is mad, but he's not a complete imbecile.  He understands the idea that his sister is potentially a political bargaining chip.  And this plan is Illyrio's plan.  Viserys is obviously not the mover and shaker.

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Plus, he was planning to marry Daenerys himself when she got old enough. 

Considering how abusive he is, that was a threat, if anything.  Makes sure she is eager to jump at her marriage when it comes.  And knowing "who she is" is an essential part of her training.

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It was only when Drogo came along, with his purported army, that Viserys changed his mind on that. 

He did not change his mind.  He did try to deflower her (according to Illyrio).  Illyrio made sure they were back at his manse by the time Dany had reached puberty.

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Plus, I don't know where they would get a changeling from. 

Illyrio.  He is a slaver and a dealer in that kind of girl.

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I am firmly of the  belief that Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

Well then, perhaps Dany is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara.

Or perhaps Jon was conceived at Harrenhall and born to Lyanna and Rhaegar much earlier in the abduction.  

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Even if Daenerys was their child (a twin, for example), I can't imagine Ned going along with sending her to Viserys. 

Of course not.  Her caretaker died, and someone made off with her.   Such children are valuable.  She got stolen and sold and fell into the hands of a dealer in that kind of commodity.

Ned is even known to have a beef and/or a grudge against those of his subjects who do that sort of thing

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2 hours ago, corbon said:

Most people's don't, especially if you only get to see inside their head a tiny fraction of the time, so only see specific memories relevant to authorial plots.

There is not a single thing in her memories that is inconsistent with what we are told of her story so far.

You don't find it plausible that Martin has some sort of revelation about her past in store? That there's something more to the House with the Red Door than the exact things she recalls?

I find a lot of debates in the fandom that hinge on whether something is theoretically possible to be a bit besides the point, because the series isn't a nonfiction account of real people living real lives in a real world, it's a work of fiction and every detail is put in there at Martin's choosing. Theoretically, I don't have a problem with a wealthy person in Braavos being able to grow a lemon tree, but from a meta POV I'm not convinced that Martin just coincidentally had characters say lines casting doubt on the idea of lemons growing in Braavos or similar latitudes. His response to a fan bringing this up seems to indicate that there is something there.

I'm honestly not sure what that "something" is and I don't believe it's a parentage twist. I haven't seen anybody put forth a sensible explanation for how Daenerys shows up at Viserys's side years after Rhaella died and nobody thinks there's anything weird about him suddenly having a sister. I think the point is probably more along the lines of Dany's idealized childhood home not really existing the way she imagined and her grappling with that.  

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5 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

You don't find it plausible that Martin has some sort of revelation about her past in store? That there's something more to the House with the Red Door than the exact things she recalls?

I find a lot of debates in the fandom that hinge on whether something is theoretically possible to be a bit besides the point, because the series isn't a nonfiction account of real people living real lives in a real world, it's a work of fiction and every detail is put in there at Martin's choosing. Theoretically, I don't have a problem with a wealthy person in Braavos being able to grow a lemon tree, but from a meta POV I'm not convinced that Martin just coincidentally had characters say lines casting doubt on the idea of lemons growing in Braavos or similar latitudes. His response to a fan bringing this up seems to indicate that there is something there.

I'm honestly not sure what that "something" is and I don't believe it's a parentage twist. I haven't seen anybody put forth a sensible explanation for how Daenerys shows up at Viserys's side years after Rhaella died and nobody thinks there's anything weird about him suddenly having a sister. I think the point is probably more along the lines of Dany's idealized childhood home not really existing the way she imagined and her grappling with that.  

I think she is supposed to have died at about age 5 or thereabouts and been replaced.  At least, I think that's the idea.  Which brings about its own questions, like why nobody noticed her death in the first place. 

39 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Viserys is mad, but he's not a complete imbecile.  He understands the idea that his sister is potentially a political bargaining chip.  And this plan is Illyrio's plan.  Viserys is obviously not the mover and shaker.

Considering how abusive he is, that was a threat, if anything.  Makes sure she is eager to jump at her marriage when it comes.  And knowing "who she is" is an essential part of her training.

He did not change his mind.  He did try to deflower her (according to Illyrio).  Illyrio made sure they were back at his manse by the time Dany had reached puberty.

Illyrio.  He is a slaver and a dealer in that kind of girl.

Well then, perhaps Dany is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara.

Or perhaps Jon was conceived at Harrenhall and born to Lyanna and Rhaegar much earlier in the abduction.  

Of course not.  Her caretaker died, and someone made off with her.   Such children are valuable.  She got stolen and sold and fell into the hands of a dealer in that kind of commodity.

Ned is even known to have a beef and/or a grudge against those of his subjects who do that sort of thing

Caretaker as in the late William Dustin?  Whose post-TOJ survival is entirely unsupported.  

And born earlier?  She's already very young in appearance as it is.  I seriously doubt she is any older than her stated age.  Nor do we have any reason to believe Illyrio got involved more than a couple of years ago. 

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54 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I'm honestly not sure what that "something" is and I don't believe it's a parentage twist. I haven't seen anybody put forth a sensible explanation for how Daenerys shows up at Viserys's side years after Rhaella died and nobody thinks there's anything weird about him suddenly having a sister. I think the point is probably more along the lines of Dany's idealized childhood home not really existing the way she imagined and her grappling with that.  

An obvious answer is that there was a real child born on Dragonstone.  It is just that Dany is not that child.  What became of that child, whether it died or whether it got sent away somewhere into hiding to protect her from Viserys, is another question.  But certainly, fear of the usurper's knives gives a license for a certain amount of hiding, seclusion and trickery.

I've never been a fan of the "it can't be true because everyone would magically know" argument.   People making such arguments rarely explain who exactly "everyone" is and how exactly how it is that "everyone" would magically know.    Dany was taken by Viserys on a tour of the Free Cities, and then sold off to a barbarian and sent into the Dothraki sea to die.   Who exactly do we know (other than Viserys who of course is in on the scheme) who has ever met her, is in a position to know that she is not the same infant baby that Willem Darry smuggled out of Dragonstone?   And why would they necessarily tell her even if they did know?  

Nobody ever has any problem with the Fake Arya situation.  I guess readers are just flattered because GRRM let them in on the secret.

 

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8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think she is supposed to have died at about age 5 or thereabouts and been replaced. 

She does not need to die at any particular time, as long as her death is kept secret.  She need not die at all, if Darry protects her by sending her somewhere where Viserys cannot get at her.

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why nobody noticed her death in the first place. 

Nobody like who?  Viserys may have noticed.  Darry may have noticed.   Other people may have notice who have not told us what they know yet.

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Caretaker as in the late William Dustin? 

Could be.

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Whose post-TOJ survival is entirely unsupported.  

Well then, feel free to suggest an alternative.  Most children have caretakers.

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And born earlier?  She's already very young in appearance as it is.  I seriously doubt she is any older than her stated age. 

Nobody suggested she was younger than her stated age.

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Nor do we have any reason to believe Illyrio got involved more than a couple of years ago. 

Illyrio got involved AT LEAST two years ago, since he says "years".  You are just assuming it was not longer.

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3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

You don't find it plausible that Martin has some sort of revelation about her past in store? That there's something more to the House with the Red Door than the exact things she recalls?

Oh its plausible, which is why I said that alternative theories remain possible, arguably.

The problem they (all those I've seen presented) all have so far is three-fold. 
1. They almost always make, or use, errors in reading comprehension to create 'problems' with Dany's memories that simply do not exist. 
 - examples: 'barefoot outdoors' red door 'memory', which is a likely allegorical, possibly fake, image given to Dany by the Undying, not a recollection she has; or her memories being inconsistent with the wider Bravos stereotypes (cold, foggy, lack of wood, lemon tree etc) (because her memories (shown to us thus far) are all indoors at a rich house).
2. They lack substantive supporting data of their own - ie clues that are positively indicative of the theory rather than vaguely 'doesn't-rule-it-out' insubstantiations
 - example: lemon tree being indicative of 'something', therefore 'not-bravos',
3. They ignore existing evidence
 - examples: argument that there was no Storm at Daenerys' birth and thats just Viserys giving her bullshit mythology, despite Kevan Lannister naming her thus (never mind the ships lost etc - that was an unbelievably awful essay!) ; Willem Darry being 'maybe not old' despite Dany at different times describing him as old, grey and wrinkled)

Maybe there is another good theory out there. I've just not seen it yet. Maybe GRRM will provide new memories which do have inconsistencies with the established narrative, in which case there might be some real evidence in the future. Just not yet.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I find a lot of debates in the fandom that hinge on whether something is theoretically possible to be a bit besides the point, because the series isn't a nonfiction account of real people living real lives in a real world, it's a work of fiction and every detail is put in there at Martin's choosing.

Agreed.
I do think GRRM includes some details for verisimilitude, not plot. Thats one of the reasons his writing is so real. When you get thoughts or perspective/view of a character, the thoughts or perspective include odd random info or missing bits, just like a real person's observations or thoughts. 

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Theoretically, I don't have a problem with a wealthy person in Braavos being able to grow a lemon tree, but from a meta POV I'm not convinced that Martin just coincidentally had characters say lines casting doubt on the idea of lemons growing in Braavos or similar latitudes. His response to a fan bringing this up seems to indicate that there is something there.

Yes, virtually no one disputes that, though again, people sometimes don't argue their line clearly when they are emotively responding to a suggested narrative about that, rather than the simple facts, so sometime I think they might appear to argue against this, but they are really just trying to argue against the narrative being attached to it.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I'm honestly not sure what that "something" is and I don't believe it's a parentage twist.

The Pact with Dorne provides a perfect explanation.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I haven't seen anybody put forth a sensible explanation for how Daenerys shows up at Viserys's side years after Rhaella died and nobody thinks there's anything weird about him suddenly having a sister.

I guess you are pointing out the problem with some of the alternatives, not the book narrative. 

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I think the point is probably more along the lines of Dany's idealized childhood home not really existing the way she imagined and her grappling with that.  

I don't think she actually ever thinks of it as an idealised childhood home. I mean, she has those two things together, but she's not really (deeply, beyond her superficial consciousness) idealising 'her childhood' and 'that house' as a perfect home in themselves. I think she's really idealising 'home' as a concept of a safe and happy place. Which goes back to the only time she ever felt safe and happy - Red Door + kind old Willem Darry. And she knows its unobtainable, even as she yearns for it. Which is why its always not quite within reach, no matter where she is or how far or fast she travels.

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3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

An obvious answer is that there was a real child born on Dragonstone.  It is just that Dany is not that child.  What became of that child, whether it died or whether it got sent away somewhere into hiding to protect her from Viserys, is another question.  But certainly, fear of the usurper's knives gives a license for a certain amount of hiding, seclusion and trickery.

So the theory is that Rhaella had a kid, but it died or disappeared around age 5 or so, and then Illyrio or whoever fetched a replacement kid from Dorne that he just had lying around? And is there anything to suggest the existence of this notDany besides the lemon tree? Seems much less likely than Dany being who she thinks she is but not knowing everything about her childhood.

 

3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I've never been a fan of the "it can't be true because everyone would magically know" argument. 

It hardly takes magic, Viserys was known to be living in the Free Cities for years after Dragonstone, if he or other people suddenly claim after 5 years that he has a sister that would be a bit suspicious. Your suggestion at least tries to plug the gap though I don't find it very convincing.

3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nobody ever has any problem with the Fake Arya situation.  I guess readers are just flattered because GRRM let them in on the secret.

I can't speak for anyone else but I personally don't think the Bolton plan would succeed long-term at fooling everybody, whether or not they suffered consequences for that.

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20 minutes ago, corbon said:

3. They ignore existing evidence
 - examples: argument that there was no Storm at Daenerys' birth and thats just Viserys giving her bullshit mythology, despite Kevan Lannister naming her thus (never mind the ships lost etc - that was an unbelievably awful essay!) ; Willem Darry being 'maybe not old' despite Dany at different times describing him as old, grey and wrinkled)

As I said, I'm not in the "Dany is fake" camp

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

3. They ignore existing evidence
 - examples: argument that there was no Storm at Daenerys' birth and thats just Viserys giving her bullshit mythology, despite Kevan Lannister naming her thus (never mind the ships lost etc - that was an unbelievably awful essay!) ; Willem Darry being 'maybe not old' despite Dany at different times describing him as old, grey and wrinkled)

I'm not saying that every single thought or line by a character has massive plot implications or anything, just that I don't think he put those specific lines in the books as a coincidence given the prominence of a lemon tree in Braavos in the memories of one of the most central characters.

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

The Pact with Dorne provides a perfect explanation.

Idk. We've already been told about the pact itself and I'm not sure what "Dany lived at the Sealord's palace" adds to things. I also don't know that hints about lemons not growing in Braavos would be the best way to foreshadow that.

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

I guess you are pointing out the problem with some of the alternatives, not the book narrative. 

I've repeatedly said that I don't buy the fake Dany versions of Lemongate theories, I'm not sure why you write as if you're making some sort of insight here, that was the entire point of that sentence.

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

I don't think she actually ever thinks of it as an idealised childhood home. I mean, she has those two things together, but she's not really (deeply, beyond her superficial consciousness) idealising 'her childhood' and 'that house' as a perfect home in themselves. I think she's really idealising 'home' as a concept of a safe and happy place. Which goes back to the only time she ever felt safe and happy - Red Door + kind old Willem Darry. And she knows its unobtainable, even as she yearns for it. Which is why its always not quite within reach, no matter where she is or how far or fast she travels.

Yeah, that's my point. If there were details about that memory that were off it could potentially illustrate how it's a unrealizable fantasy that never actually existed

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9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, one expects that from Lemonhaters.  Their egos are so invested that the author's own words don't count.  At all.  

Well, I'm not a lemonhater. I see it possible that Daenerys might have grown up in Dorne (along with Viserys). But even that is really inconsistent. What I (and nobody else either) buy is your theory, which isn't lemongate, but a very twisted variaton of it. 

9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And of course, you would be singing a very different tune if GRRM had given the answer you wanted.

Of course I would. If GRRM were to say "X is Azor Ahai", we wouldn't debate it anymore.his comment doesn't hint that lemontrees can't grow in Braavos. 

I even gave you a personal example, which you of course doubt to be true, since that would be able to weaken your steonger argument. That shows your arrogancy. 

9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not true.  He explained that the Jeyne's hips thing was a mistake, for instance.  He has given other more tantalizing answers as well, where he volunteered meaningful information.

Well, I could give you a bunch of quotes where he says something like that. When he can't talk about a given thing to not spoil something. Can you give me an example (beside Lemongate) when he was willing to spoil anything? 

10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nor was he put on the spot here.   This was not an interview.  He answered only because he chose to answer,  He was exactly as evasive as he chose to be.   What he chose to say, he presumably meant.  And he did not say "you'll see if that's important."  That's what you wish he said.  But it's not what he said.

A bunch of occasions had been when he was answering to questions from fans. I mean in the sense that they planned a QnA, and George tried answering in a way he doesn't spoil too much. 

10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

can.  If you write your own work of fiction, where lemon trees grow unaided in the frozen tundra, and you say that's just how lemon trees work in your fantasy world, I'll gladly accept it.

But that's not the situation here.  You are the one who cannot accept the author's own words and the author's rules.  

Braavos isn't a frozen tundra. You're in the dark here. You don't seem to understand geography (climate). If that's the case, you should not use it in your arguments. And I am not the one who cannot accept rules.

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3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

So the theory is that Rhaella had a kid,

Sure.  There's textual evidence for that.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

but it died or disappeared around age 5 or so,

No.  Merely that she died or disappeared.   At some point.  When one is hiding and running from the usurpers knives, one has no particular need to explain the whereabouts of one's sister to all and sundry.  And there is nothing suspicious about not doing so.  "She is being hidden in an undisclosed location".  It might even be true.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

and then Illyrio or whoever fetched a replacement kid from Dorne that he just had lying around?

Yes, he fetched a replacement kid.  Yes he happened to have such a kid around.  He is slaver dealing in Valyrian featured girls, so he is precisely the go-to person for such a commodity.  No, he would not need to go to Dorne to fetch her.  Others would have brought the girl to him, because he is a dealer in that sort of commodity.

The slavers who ultimately obtained Jorah's poachers probably did not need to special order them from Bear Island.  That would not typically be how such things work.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

And is there anything to suggest the existence of this notDany besides the lemon tree?

Is there absolute proof?  No.  There is no absolute proof.  If you want absolute proof of whatever surprises GRRM has in store, just wait for the next books.

Is there anything to suggest?  Sure.  There's the fact that she is healthy, talented and (relatively) sane, whereas all of Rhaella's doubly-inbred children by Aerys were either non-viable or Viserys.  There's Rhaegar as the only exception, but with hints regarding Bonifer suggesting an alternate parentage theory.   There's the ironic clue of Aerys accusing Rhaella of adultery when her children were ill or deformed.   There's the Fake Arya subplot, and the Reek subplot.  There's the "remember who you are" theme that appears in both the Theon and Dany chapters. There's Jorah telling Dany she takes more after Rhaegar than Aerys.  There's Barristan thinking she reminds him of Ashara.  There is the storm of rose petals in Ned's fever dream (combined with the line "child of storm").   There is the clue suggesting Aegon is TPTWP; and the clues suggesting that the other 2 heads of the dragon ought to be his siblings, as per history and Rhaegar's expectations.  There is Rhaegar saying "there must be one more" as he looks at Dany in her vision.  There is the "3 mounts shall you ride" thing - we've already seen horse and dragon - what will the 3rd mount be if not a direwolf?  There Illyrio, co-conspirator in the scheme to sell Dany to Drogo, as a slaver dealing in Targ-haired children.  There is Viserys openly wondering to Illyrio if Dany can pass as a Targ princess.  There is Dany's memory of Viserys' enraged punishment of her, for daring to hint at the thought that she could be anything other than a Targ princess.  There's the scents of the Western Market that remind her of home, and which evidently are not meant to be fish oils.  There's her association of the Red Door House with the idea of a simple life, which hardly seems to fit the Sealord's Palace theory.  There are the clues regarding "they" and Willam's bones which we have been discussing in this thread.   There's the fact that Jon is apparently too old to be the baby born at the time of the TOJ incident.  There is the prophesy of the girl in grey who is Jon's sister and is obviously not Alys Karstark.  There is the natural expectation that the Tower of Joy will be the source of at least some climactic revelations.  There's probably more that I cannot think of right now.

And again, if such clues are too subtle for you, you'll just have to wait for the books. Only then will we truly know GRRM's secret secrets.  

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

It hardly takes magic, Viserys was known to be living in the Free Cities for years after Dragonstone, if he or other people suddenly claim after 5 years that he has a sister that would be a bit suspicious.   Your suggestion at least tries to plug the gap though I don't find it very convincing.

Dude.  He is known to have had a sister born on Dragonstone.  Darry stole her.   Why do you keep pretending my theory is that he didn't have a sister?  If Viserys or Darry were to say that Dany was in hiding because of the Usurper's knives, how would some random Essosi nobleman know he was lying.  It might even be true for all I know, because I'm not even sure she's dead.  Wylla Manderly, with the green hair, could be the real Dany for all I know. 

You say "it hardly takes magic", but people would know SOMEHOW.  And that's just dumb.    Does everyone know about Jon's baby swap at the wall?  Sure, some people might know, but that does not mean the readers have to know.  And whoever knows does not necessarily have a motive to rush halfway across the world to warn Khal Drogo that he is being cheated.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I can't speak for anyone else but I personally don't think the Bolton plan would succeed long-term at fooling everybody, whether or not they suffered consequences for that.

LOL, well I don't think the Fake Dany scheme will succeed long term either.  What kind of objection is that?

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4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I see it possible that Daenerys might have grown up in Dorne (along with Viserys).

If we were to discuss that hypothetical, I think the evidence would militate against Viserys actually being present.   But that's fine.  People can disagree.

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What I (and nobody else either)

LEMMING ALERT!  LEMMING ALERT!  When will you learn to think and argue for yourself?  Have you no shame?

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your theory, which isn't lemongate,

I never identified my theory with lemongate.  I clearly distinguished them.   In our immediately previous posts, we were discussing lemongate. 

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his comment does not hint that lemon trees cannot grow in Braavos

It certainly does hint that lemon trees (at the very least) should not normally grow on Braavos, and that this is a discrepancy, and that this discrepancy points to something.  "It points" refers back to "the discrepancy" and "the discrepancy" is that outlined by the questioner, which includes that citrus trees really should not grow in Braavos due to the cold foggy climate.

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Can you give me an example (beside Lemongate) when he was willing to spoil anything?

"Spoil" is arbitrary.  It is always up to the author how many clues he wants to give us.  And yes, he does say he leaves clues.  And sometimes he does give clues outside the text.  He remarked that Rhaenys was definitely dead, while leaving open the possibility that Aegon might be alive.  He remarked that Baby Aegon looked "more like a Targaryen" years before the text revealed that he had fair hair.  He told us that there was at least one descendant of Dunk running around in the books, since at least ASOS, and he later said he left a pretty big clue for it in AFFC.   Once, when a fan asked if Ashara's body was recovered, he said no.  The Wiki of Ice and Fire is full of citations to material provided in SSMs.

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A bunch of occasions had been when he was answering to questions from fans. I mean in the sense that they planned a QnA, and George tried answering in a way he doesn't spoil too much. 

Different questions.  Different answers.   Different context too.  Why are you so eager to change the subject?  

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Braavos isn't a frozen tundra.

I did not say it was.  You missed the point.  Completely.

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5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Okay.  If we were to discuss that hypothetical, I think the evidence would militate against Viserys actually being present.  But I doubt you are serious about discussing.

I didn't say it doesn't. I can accept that. It is you who can't. Never. Most of the things you claim are either contradicting the text (like that Daenerys is a slave girl who's also anyother secret Targaryen, not THE Daenerys, daughter of Aerys) or are entirely pointless ( Willam Dustin's case) to the entire plot, in the sense that even if that's what happened, it wasn't a required thing, and the story doesn't change by it. 

11 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

LEMMING ALERT!  LEMMING ALERT!  When will you learn to think and argue for yourself?  Have you no shame?

When you learn to lose an argument (you haven't yet. According to me). Other than that, public opinion is something that should bother you when you being anything up. You don't decide what's likely and what's more likely. That's why modern societies have votes. People from the past often tought theirs is the truth, and only theirs. They're called tyrants nowadays. That the 'public' opinion claims that you're wrong or your theories don't fit the narrative plot shows what's likely or not. One single person can misjudge something, but it is less likelier that two will as well. The more people express how they feel about your idea, the more precise the values become. When a bunch of people say you're wrong, you should at least be considering you're wrong. Which you don't. Instead you say you never saw anything that could disprove you, to which I say there's a bunch of them. We've been there. 

You can't tell a politician either that he should not rely on what the people think. 

31 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I never identified my theory with lemongate.  I clearly distinguished them.  We were discussing lemongate in our previous post.  You were losing the argument, which is why you now resort to this ploy.

I did never discuss lemongate with you. I discussed Willam Dustin with yiu, and the Tower of Joy. When I felt I said everything I could (and it changed nothing), I decided not to be part of yoir nascar race with 200 rounds around the same thing. If you think you won a single argument, you're wrong. You're not a ref and a competitor at the same time. You can't be, because you would side with yourself. That's when public opinion (as an argument can't have a judge) plays its role. Which isn't in your favor. 

37 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

certainly does hint that lemon trees (at the very least) should not normally grow on Braavos, and that this is a discrepancy, and that this discrepancy points to something.  "It" refers back to "the discrepancy" and "the discrepancy" is that outlined by the questioner, which includes that citrus trees really should not grow in Braavos due to the cold foggy climate.

Which doesn't mean they can't. If you think it does, you're having problems with interpretation. Insted you were shown (by multiple accounts) how it's not that big of a deal.We're talking about a single lemon tree. That a single lemon tree grows on Braavos is not a discrepancy. It would be in the North Pole, where the chances are 0%.

43 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Spoil" is arbitrary.  It is always up to the author how many clues he wants to give us.  And yes, he does say he leaves clues.  And sometimes he does give clues outside the text.  He remarked that Rhaenys was definitely dead, while leaving open the possibility that Aegon might be alive.  He remarked that Baby Aegon looked "more like a Targaryen" years before the text revealed that he had fair hair.  He told us that there was at least one descendant of Dunk running around in the books, since at least ASOS, and he left a pretty big clue for it in AFFC.   Once, when a fan asked if Ashara's body was recovered, he said no.

Did revealing that Ser Duncan has a living descendant presented in the story changed any speculations about the future? No. He didn't spoil the story. What he says about the lemontree does, according to you, since you build up your theory on that it indicates something. 

47 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Different questions.  Different answers.   Different context too.  Why are you so eager to change the subject?  

I'm not. I think what I said is entirely relevant in our discussion. 

48 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I did not say it was.  You missed the point.  Completely.

No, I did not. You missed the point if my reply. You missed the point that it's not impossible that Braavos could have a single lemon tree. Definitely not as impossible as thousands of lizard lions living in the Neck. And yet they do. 

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4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

When you learn to lose an argument (you haven't yet. According to me).

Do I owe that to you?  Seems to me that you are the one that needs to learn to disagree respectfully

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Other than that, public opinion is something that should bother you when you being anything up.

You are a lemming and think I ought to be one too.  Sad.

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You don't decide what's likely and what's more likely.

Yes I do.  And I do listen to others and adjust my opinions.  But I don't have to be bullied.

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

That's why modern societies have votes.

No, that is not why modern societies have votes.  The winners do not get to force others to surrender their opinions.  Otherwise, everyone would have to vote however the Dear Leader wanted them to.   My own country, for instance, has freedom of expression, as well as freedom of religion, enshrined in the constittution.

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

That the 'public' opinion claims that you're wrong or your theories don't fit the narrative plot shows what's likely or not.

And you speak for the "public", do you?

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

One single person can misjudge something ....

So can an online community.

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6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

No.  Merely that she died or disappeared.   At some point.  When one is hiding and running from the usurpers knives, one has no particular need to explain the whereabouts of one's sister to all and sundry.  And there is nothing suspicious about not doing so.  "She is being hidden in an undisclosed location".  It might even be true.

If you go much beyond 5 then our Dany should remember her early life enough to know that she isn't who they say she is and that the House with the Red Door wasn't in Braavos and the man she lived with wasn't Willem Darry. Unless you think Dany is significantly younger than she's presented as, but that seems pretty unlikely. If she was supposedly in hiding for years before that it begs the question of how nobody would doubt that she was alive or why there'd be such a wait to replace her.

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Yes, he fetched a replacement kid.  Yes he happened to have such a kid around.  He is slaver dealing in Valyrian featured girls, so he is precisely the go-to person for such a commodity.  No, he would not need to go to Dorne to fetch her.  Others would have brought the girl to him, because he is a dealer in that sort of commodity.

Slavery is not legal in Dorne and Dany's memories of the House with the Red Door don't really sound like the upbringing of a slave girl, so that's not a very good explanation IMO.

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Is there absolute proof?  No.  There is no absolute proof.  If you want absolute proof of whatever surprises GRRM has in store, just wait for the next books.

Basically everything you cited is either not an actual hint (e.g. Rhaegar being Bonifer's son is pure crack) or relies on a specific reading of text that is not at all obvious and has various alternate explanations that are often much more likely. 

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

There's the fact that Jon is apparently too old to be the baby born at the time of the TOJ incident. 

Based on what? Who are Jon's parents in your theory? And since you seem to be arguing that Dany is the ToJ baby, how is Barristan thinking she looks like Ashara a hint?

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Dude.  He is known to have had a sister born on Dragonstone.  Darry stole her.   Why do you keep pretending my theory is that he didn't have a sister?  If Viserys or Darry were to say that Dany was in hiding because of the Usurper's knives, how would some random Essosi nobleman know he was lying.  It might even be true for all I know, because I'm not even sure she's dead.  Wylla Manderly, with the green hair, could be the real Dany for all I know. 

I didn't pretend anything, did you even bother reading the last part of the text you cited?

6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

LOL, well I don't think the Fake Dany scheme will succeed long term either.  What kind of objection is that?

She's 15 and there doesn't appear to be a shred of doubt in anybody's mind that she's who she says she is, Jeyne got passed off as Arya for a few months and it's not even clear if that fooled everybody (obviously we know it didn't fool Theon).

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6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I did never discuss lemongate with you.

I've been discussing lemongate for the last several posts, particularly with you.  If you were not talking about that, because of your fixation against my Willem Darry theory, then you've been talking past me.  I've been discussing broader theories with other people, but I try to keep separate issue separate.

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We're talking about a single lemon tree. That a single lemon tree grows on Braavos is not a discrepancy. 

GRRM says yes, it is a discrepancy, and that it points to something significant and spoilerish.  I don't care to get into some hyper-narrow semantic debate about the definition of the word "discrepancy".  

And again, I don't read GRRM's words as indicating that it is impossible for Braavos to have a lemon tree.  However it is still necessary for this lemon tree to point to something significant and spoilerish.  Otherwise you are just arguing against the author.

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No. He didn't spoil the story. What he says about the lemontree does, according to you, since you build up your theory on that it indicates something.

I can distinguish my Willem Darry theory from the lemongate issue, though it seems you cannot.   I never argued his words confirmed my theory.

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You missed the point that it's not impossible that Braavos could have a single lemon tree.   

If Braavos contains a single lemon tree, it's presence there, despite the climate discrepancy, points to something significant and  spoilerish, per GRRM.

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Definitely not as impossible as thousands of lizard lions living in the Neck. And yet they do. 

Lizard Lions live exactly where GRRM says they live, in the Neck.  Since we never encounter them anywhere else, there is not even the shadow of a discrepancy.

Same with Lemons.  His world; his rules.  If the text tells us they don't (at least normally) grow as far north as King's Landing, or the Riverlands, or the Vale, or Braavos, nor indeed anywhere as far as we know other than Dorne or South Essos, then they probably don't.  This is the discrepancy that GRRM acknowledges in his email

Real world rules about lemons are not necessarily relevant, though they might be, since, as far as I can tell, Westerosi lemons don't differ much from real world lemons.  No-one arguing in this thread that a real world lemon tree could grow in Braavos has addressed the sunlight problem.  Lemons need a lot of sun, and Braavos is obviously the last place in the world they are going to get any.

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