Who's "they" ?

[Mister Smikes]

14 hours ago, Ran said:

Between the glass gardens, the Sealord's menagerie, the added detail in Jonathan Robert's map in which George directed him to include a wooded isle off the Sealord's Palace, and Samwell giving us his quote about the courts of the mighty, George is clearly preparing people to learn more about the time in Braavos and perhaps a role for the Dornish in the sojourn there. It's perceptive for someone to realize that Daenerys and Viserys were in Braavos under the protection of someone powerful and mighty specifically because of the lemon tree. 

The question that GRRM actually said "Yes", "Very Perceptive" and "It points to ... well, that would be telling" to was:

Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past?  

What you are pretending was asked:  "Dany remembers a tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but there are no trees in Braavos according to Arya.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past?"  

The only part of your explanation that has any remote relevance to the actual question asked and answered is your reference to glass gardens (those of Winterfell, I guess).  Except you failed to mention the sunlamps, which would presumably be needed as well.

 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

12 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Okay man.  I'm sorry I hurt your feelings by saying you sound angry.

I'm not the one whining about how unfairly people are treating me, keep projecting

[Mister Smikes]

30 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I'm not the one whining about how unfairly people are treating me, keep projecting

I don't recall ever saying that anyone was treating me unfairly.  I did say, though, that you sounded angry.  To which you objected, and said that you were not angry.  Okay fine.  You are not angry.

[Mister Smikes]

7 hours ago, Walda said:

I don't think you are claiming that fog was all that kept Braavos hidden for 100 years?

Given its proximity to Lorath and the size of its lagoon ... I can't help thinking that it wouldn't be too hard to spot from dragonback on one of those rare autumn days.

I guess Lorath became part of the freehold after Braavos was established, because a dragonrider following his ship up or down the coast from Lorah to Pentos (or even a captain who wanted to map the coastline to avoid wrecking his ship), would have noticed those deep natural harbors, sheltered from the awful winter storms.

I suppose Braavos might have been established in a winter when the white walkers were active and the weather was really awful and Lorath was a pokey little free-folk village the Valyrians were not interested in, and the owners who noticed their slaves gone figured they would have frozen to death on the road to Lorath anyway, and nobody in their right mind would sail a ship past Pentos what with the storms and the ice. 

I guess Thenn is also a place that could have done a reveal when they realised how much trade they were losing by not being on the map.

Personally, I think it would take more than fog to deter the Valyrians if they were bent on destruction - I mean, Ny Sar.

You make some fair points here, I think, though I'm not sure I agree wiith all of it.  Going by the text, the reefs did not attract ships -- but kept them away.  It might possibly go too far for me to suggest that the fog and cloud cover was a primary reason that the Secret City remained secret.  But it is clearly suggested as a factor.  It did remain secret for a while, and you almost seem to be arguing against yourself when you claim it ought to have been easy to spot from dragonback on those rare autumn days.  Maybe those rare autumn days were rare after all?  Perhaps even in summer?  Maybe that's not just hyperbole, etc.

[alienarea]

10 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It's a defensive method from his side. 

It surely is a speculation, but one can assume there were people around a highborn pregnant lady. I assume the three kingsguard didn't really help in that way. They were knights, sworn brothers to protect, etc., they hardly had to cook or do the homework. There had to be people who had to take care of the entire 'household'. Rhaegar, Lyanna and the 3 KG, I mean. Considering Rhaegar might have known the place before (for various reasons), we can assume there were a few around, or brang there for that purpose. And Ned still had to have some people who destroyed the Tower. 

It's speculation, but a safe one, I guess. 

It is not in my opinion. Women have given birth on their own for thousands of years.

There isn't a single line in the books up to ADwD saying that Lyanna

- was pregnant

- if so, gave birth at the ToJ

The whole ToJ episode is from a fever dream of Ned.

The books say:

- Ned tore down the ToJ with his hands to build eight cairns

- only two rode away

Following your speculation, Ned and Howland rode into Starfall with Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn, a crying (because hungry almost starved) baby Jon, and a decomposing Lyanna.

And no one remembers this? Because, quoting LF, "someone always tells".

[Willam Stark]

11 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It's a defensive method from his side. 

 

It's his speciality: digging up some crackpot theories to subvert the expectations because it's fun to do so and go against the tide, presenting baseless assumptions as evidence and whining around when we say that he doesn't have evidence, which is true. Subvert, that's all he cares about, not looking for the theory that best fits the texts.

I suggest you all to not get into his game.

[Mister Smikes]

52 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

It's his speciality: digging up some crackpot theories to subvert the expectations because it's fun to do so and go against the tide, presenting baseless assumptions as evidence and whining around when we say that he doesn't have evidence, which is true. Subvert, that's all he cares about, not looking for the theory that best fits the texts.

I suggest you all to not get into his game.

Hi.  Sorry to hear that you have such bad feelings towards me.  I just want to say that nobody owes me their time, so no-one has any obligation to debate me on any issue if they do not want to.  Peace.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

It is not in my opinion. Women have given birth on their own for thousands of years.

There isn't a single line in the books up to ADwD saying that Lyanna

- was pregnant

- if so, gave birth at the ToJ

The whole ToJ episode is from a fever dream of Ned.

The books say:

- Ned tore down the ToJ with his hands to build eight cairns

- only two rode away

Following your speculation, Ned and Howland rode into Starfall with Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn, a crying (because hungry almost starved) baby Jon, and a decomposing Lyanna.

And no one remembers this? Because, quoting LF, "someone always tells".

1)I would like to start with telling you how DnD got their 'job': When they sat down with George for the first time, he asked them who they think Jon's father is. They were right guessing Lyanna. So much for speculating if Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth somewhere. Look up the interview. 

2) Given how Ned Stark found Lyanna in "a bed of blood" at the ToJ, it is safe to assume there Lyanna gave birth. 

3) Ned didn't tore down the Tower. Neither did Maegor built his Holdfast with his hands. Yet, everyone says "Maegor built it, that's why it's called Maegor's Holdfast". Hired workers built it, yet noone says "People built it" or something similar. When your neighbour builds a house (see?) and hires a crew to build it, you say "My neighbour is building a house", but he doesn't, the crew he hired does. Yet you never say that some unknown workers built my neighbour's house. The same goes for anything. Ned Stark didn't tore down the whole place. Others did. The Wiki says so as well. The Tower of Joy is a tower, a stone structure. A single person can't just tore it down (nor can 2) when he has to move on. And he had to. He had to go to Starfall, then back home, etc. A noble lord would never do it, why would the Warden of the North do it, when he just got every problem in the world with Jon? It is a ridiculous notion that a single person (Lord Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, not a nobody who has all the time of the world) tore down the whole place to the ground to build those cairns, who already had better things to worry about. I can't even understand how would someone believe this. What was Howland doing? Breastfeeding the child? 

4) I don't see a single reason why anyone should've been with Ned and Howland. Of course Eddard Stark won't tell a single person he aquired his little bastard from the place he found his sister dying. Beside that, he brang with himself Lyanna's bones, which not only required boiling first, but they had to carry it back as well.  I assume Ned didn't put them in a bag and carried them on his horse or on his back. 

5) Women gave birth alone in the past more often, yes. That never applied to royalty or nobility. I don't even understand how one could assume anyone would leave a 17 yo girl to give birth to a prince/princess alone. 

6) Someone always tells, and as far as I know, everyone from Cersei Lannister to the last peasant on the field knows Rhaegar Targaryen abducted and raped Lyanna Stark. Other than that, a child can be kept a secret. We don't knoe who's they, but these people had to be loyal at least. 

7) I was talking about this before as well, and I wrire it down once again: For a long time there were 4 people at the ToJ that had to be taken care of: Lyanna, Rhaegar, the 3 KG (Rhaegar left when LC Hightower came). What do you expect, that they washed, cooked, cleaned and ensured heating for themselves in a shack or something? 

We don't know for sure. But these people surely weren't used to maintain themselves this many ways. After all the KG were KG, Rhaegar the Crown Prince, and Lyanna the daughter of Lord Rickard Stark. They would've had to do this for more than a year. 

And about "someone always tells", we don't have any indication of an investigation about something that in everyone's eye was just a clear thing. Not sure why would've anyone talked about. I assume there had to be around 3-4 additional people around as servants to the original four to everything goes as intended. When Ned had the place tored down, he might have brang a few or something. 

[Frey family reunion]

22 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

1)I would like to start with telling you how DnD got their 'job': When they sat down with George for the first time, he asked them who they think Jon's father is. They were right guessing Lyanna. So much for speculating if Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth somewhere. Look up the interview. 

Point of clarification, George didn’t ask them who they thought Jon’s “father” was, he asked them who they thought Jon’s “mother” was.

22 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

2) Given how Ned Stark found Lyanna in "a bed of blood" at the ToJ, it is safe to assume there Lyanna gave birth. 

We don’t know where Ned found Lyanna in her “bed of blood”.  We merely know that Eddard’s dream proceeds from the battle at the tower of joy to Ned by Lyanna’s side where she elicited her promise from Ned.  We don’t know if it was the same location as the previous scene in his dream.

22 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

3) Ned didn't tore down the Tower.

Ned specifically recalls how he tore down the tower.  You’re really reaching on this point.

22 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

4) I don't see a single reason why anyone should've been with Ned and Howland. Of course Eddard Stark won't tell a single person he aquired his little bastard from the place he found his sister dying. Beside that, he brang with himself Lyanna's bones, which not only required boiling first, but they had to carry it back as well.  I assume Ned didn't put them in a bag and carried them on his horse or on his back. 

Umm, ok, sure.  Maybe they nursed the kid from her soup.  Don’t let anything go to waste when you’re in the wilderness with a hungry infant.

22 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

5) Women gave birth alone in the past more often, yes. That never applied to royalty or nobility. I don't even understand how one could assume anyone would leave a 17 yo girl to give birth to a prince/princess alone.

I agree it would seem a strange place for Rhaegar to have brought his pregnant girlfriend, a tower where one man can pull down with his bare hands to make a mere eight cairns.  Which makes me think that Lyanna wasn’t in this “tower”.  My guess is Rhaegar would have brought her to Starfall where her pregnancy could have been properly provided for, and within a remote location, an island in a lake within the mountains, in the castle of his best “friend”. 

22 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

6) Someone always tells, and as far as I know, everyone from Cersei Lannister to the last peasant on the field knows Rhaegar Targaryen abducted and raped Lyanna Stark. Other than that, a child can be kept a secret. We don't knoe who's they, but these people had to be loyal at least. 

I think the prevailing stories were either that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna, or that it was a tragic love story.  I suppose it depends on which singer is telling the tale.

22 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

7) I was talking about this before as well, and I wrire it down once again: For a long time there were 4 people at the ToJ that had to be taken care of: Lyanna, Rhaegar, the 3 KG (Rhaegar left when LC Hightower came). What do you expect, that they washed, cooked, cleaned and ensured heating for themselves in a shack or something? 

No, I find that doubtful.  But of course I don’t think that “for a long time” Lyanna was in the tower of joy.  I suspect she may have never been in there.  But for the sake of argument, I suppose it could be akin to the Bethlehem stable, a lean to that provided temporary shelter.  I’ll concede that’s a possibility, assuming that they would have been traveling with a pregnant Lyanna through the Prince’s Pass.  But it seems odd that there would have been a bed already present, in this pathetic excuse for a tower.

 

 

[corbon]

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree it would seem a strange place for Rhaegar to have brought his pregnant girlfriend, a tower where one man can pull down with his bare hands to make a mere eight cairns.  

He, if you are gonna pick apart less than perfect arguments (as opposed to just poor points), its probably best you don't do the same thing you are picking apart. 
  

[alienarea]

53 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I assume

That is true.

Everything else you post, maybe not.

FFR said it nicer than I could.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Point of clarification, George didn’t ask them who they thought Jon’s “father” was, he asked them who they thought Jon’s “mother” was.

Not sure why I wrote father. I meant to write mother. 

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We don’t know where Ned found Lyanna in her “bed of blood”.  We merely know that Eddard’s dream proceeds from the battle at the tower of joy to Ned by Lyanna’s side where she elicited her promise from Ned.  We don’t know if it was the same location as the previous scene in his dream.

I don't see no point in having the Kingsguard at the ToJ if Lyanna's not there. The two aren't separable to me. 

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ned specifically recalls how he tore down the tower.  You’re really reaching on this point.

I'm really not sure how people could actually think he did it himself. I guess only me and the person who wrote the page of the Wiki about the TOJ think that. Nonetheless, I see Ned tearing down a tower alone a logical failure. 

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Umm, ok, sure.  Maybe they nursed the kid from her soup.  Don’t let anything go to waste when you’re in the wilderness with a hungry infant.

We can never be sure, but there mighr have been a wetnurse there for Jon. Not all noblewoman fed their own children from their breast. Some never did. A good amount of them never did. It is only speculation, but given how much Wylla seems to be involved, she might have been at the ToJ. 

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree it would seem a strange place for Rhaegar to have brought his pregnant girlfriend, a tower where one man can pull down with his bare hands to make a mere eight cairns.  Which makes me think that Lyanna wasn’t in this “tower”.  My guess is Rhaegar would have brought her to Starfall where her pregnancy could have been properly provided for, and within a remote location, an island in a lake within the mountains, in the castle of his best “friend”. 

Not really. That he brought her there might indicate he knew the place already. It's supposed to be somewhat close to Summerhall, there may have been folks around that already met Rhaegar or something. It's also not in the wilderness. The ToJ is a round-shaped stone structure. That they were able to hang around there indicates it wasn't an abandoned ruin or anyrhing similar.

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the prevailing stories were either that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna, or that it was a tragic love story.  I suppose it depends on which singer is telling the tale.

That could be, among the smallfolk. Nobility would likely not think Lyanna Stark willingly wenr with him or something. Not that this matter. 

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, I find that doubtful.  But of course I don’t think that “for a long time” Lyanna was in the tower of joy.  I suspect she may have never been in there.  But for the sake of argument, I suppose it could be akin to the Bethlehem stable, a lean to that provided temporary shelter.  I’ll concede that’s a possibility, assuming that they would have been traveling with a pregnant Lyanna through the Prince’s Pass.  But it seems odd that there would have been a bed already present, in this pathetic excuse for a tower.

I mean, the point of the ToJ was secrecy. If they were hanging around from the Marches to Starfall all the time, etc, they would've risked that they'll be noticed by someone who might actually talk, who could basically be anybody. 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I don't recall ever saying that anyone was treating me unfairly.  I did say, though, that you sounded angry.  To which you objected, and said that you were not angry.  Okay fine.  You are not angry.

You went on an angry rant that concluded with you pleading with me to treat you as an equal, because you apparently felt I wasn't doing so. Because that's definitely what people do when they're not mad and feel they're being treated fairly. 

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, corbon said:

He, if you are gonna pick apart less than perfect arguments (as opposed to just poor points), its probably best you don't do the same thing you are picking apart. 
  

Yea, I suppose he could have used his feet too.  Hopefully he lifted with his legs and not his back.

[corbon]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, I suppose he could have used his feet too.  Hopefully he lifted with his legs and not his back.

Howland Reed.
Any noncombatants.
10 or more Horses.
Gloves.
Rope.
Tools (you think they don't have a hammer for tent pegs between them, for example?)
Spear shafts or cut branches or similar for leverage
etc

It was an egregious piece of hyperbole, which I tried to point out the humour in. 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

There isn't a single line in the books up to ADwD saying that Lyanna

- was pregnant

- if so, gave birth at the ToJ

The whole ToJ episode is from a fever dream of Ned.

Here's the beginning of the ToJ part in AGOT:

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. 

It's clear that this is not just a one-off fever dream, it's a recurring one that includes the KG, the ToJ, Lyanna "in her bed of blood" (which is a pretty clear clue that she had recently given birth), and his friends, who are noted as riding with him as they had in life. While I can buy that not every single detail was exactly the same in the dream as it was in real life, there isn't much basis for not accepting these basic parameters. You can technically argue that it doesn't explicitly confirm that Lyanna was at the ToJ IRL, but I think that's a semantic point more so than anything that holds real weight in evaluating what possibilities are plausible here. There's no reason to think the KG were just chilling by themselves and Ned and his crew got in a fight with them and then it turns out Lyanna was in a totally different place IRL but she just happens to be there in this recurring dream of his.

[Mister Smikes]

39 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

You went on an angry rant that concluded with you pleading with me to treat you as an equal, because you apparently felt I wasn't doing so.

No.  I rejected your claim that you had the right to assign me  any burden of proof.   And I used a little emphatic language in the hope you would get the message.  I said we stood as equals, with neither one of us having any burden to convince the other or be convinced by the other.  I challenged you to accept this. 

You rejected that suggestion, and that's fine.  I don't respect your authority.  It's just one more of the things we must agree to disagree about.  

[Mister Smikes]

14 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, I suppose he could have used his feet too.  Hopefully he lifted with his legs and not his back.

He used the Dragon of Winterfell.

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

He used the Dragon of Winterfell.

He’s like the Superman baby.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

2 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

No.  I rejected your claim that you had the right to assign me  any burden of proof.   And I used a little emphatic language in the hope you would get the message.  I said we stood as equals, with neither one of us having any burden to convince the other or be convinced by the other.  I challenged you to accept this. 

You rejected that suggestion, and that's fine.  It does not upset me one bit.  It is no skin off my nose.  You think you are the king of the castle and it is my burden to dislodge you, and I disagree.  I don't respect your authority.  It's just one more of the things we must agree to disagree about.  

FFS get over yourself. I made a comment about a basic norm of argumentation that the person making a claim is expected to back it up if they want to convince people and you reacted with this over the top melodramatic indignation as though I were a tyrant claiming authority over you and issuing a legal decree. This is a message board, it's obvious that nobody has any formal set-in-stone obligations short of whatever the rules the moderators set, I didn't think I needed to issue an explicit disclaimer saying that to avoid hurting your feelings but apparently I did. While this means everyone here is free to say what they want within the parameters set by the mods, it also means that other people are not obligated to take you or me or anyone else seriously. If I wanted to I could post any crazy theory I wanted to, but if I didn't provide good evidence to back it up and my go-to response every time another poster poked a hole in it amounted to little more than "it's not technically impossible" then I would expect people to not respect me or my theories. That's why it's a good rule of thumb in discussions to support your arguments with credible evidence, hence my comment. I never said this was a legal obligation. It's really incredible how riled up you got over something so innocuous.