Who's "they" ?

[LynnS]

Apart from Howland, I don't know who "they" might be.  I assume it's whomever is waiting to prepare her body after death.  "They" refers to two or more people, a group of people in general, or a group of people in authority regarded collectively.  Since her bones were returned to Winterfell; I assume this is what happened next.   Typically, it's the Silent Sisters who prepare bodies after death.

That they had found him still holding her body; implies that Ned had been with her for a while and her death was anticipated.  The fact that he doesn't remember anything afterwards is problematic.

[Daenerysthegreat]

54 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So Ned forced some Dornish servants into indentured servitude, to pull down an inhabited tower?  Afterwards did he also have them dig their own shallow graves to silence what they saw?  Or did he just make them pinkie swear?

Then they sawed up Lyanna, put her in a big pot to boil, so they could carry her bones?

And then they decide to trek through enemy territory with a baby in tow, through the Mountains of Dorne, just so they could get a sword back to their enemy House Dayne?  When they could have returned the sword at any later time?

The more people you start to insert into this scenario, and the more unnecessary actions you put in the scenario the less likely it becomes.

I think based on the evidence at hand, I would at most put one additional person at the tower, the wet nurse Wylla.  So the delineation of responsibilities should be fairly clear.  Howland dug the graves, Ned pulled down the tower to mark the graves, and Wylla saw to the infant.

 They then rode off on three horses.  Ned’s horse, Howland’s horse, and presumably the red stallion for Wylla and the boy.

And the reason they made the decision to take an arduous, dangerous journey to Starfall should be pretty simple, they weren’t returning a sword to Starfall, they were returning a child to her mother, who was in Starfall.

ETA: And let’s not forget that while we’re treating this as some type of uninhabited wilderness, it really wasn’t.  Prince’s Pass was inhabited and controlled by House Manwoody.

And in case you forgot, Lord Manwoody was one of the lords that accompanied Oberyn to King’s Landing to get justice for Elia.  And more than that, he along with Damon Sands acted as Oberyn’s squire before Oberyn’s duel with the Mountain.  The fact that Damon Sand was in truth a prior squire of Oberyn’s makes it a decent bet that Lord Manwoody could have also been a former squire of Oberyn.  A long winded reason to say that House Manwoody was probably pretty close to Elia’s very protective brother.

Which makes it an even odder place to bring servants and maesters, and set up house for your pregnant paramour, a decision that has apparently caused a lot of anger among the Dornish, that you are putting her amongst.

Servants means the people who were already there attending lyanna. 

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Servants means the people who were already there attending lyanna. 

I understood what you were talking about, my question is what did Ned do with them?  After all, if everything is supposed to be so hush hush, what do with all of these loose ends running about?  Or do you just leave them to starve?  I mean you already have Ned forcing them into pulling down a tower that had been their abode just a few minutes ago, what do you do with them then?

[Daenerysthegreat]

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I understood what you were talking about, my question is what did Ned do with them?  After all, if everything is supposed to be so hush hush, what do with all of these loose ends running about?  Or do you just leave them to starve?  I mean you already have Ned forcing them into pulling down a tower that had been their abode just a few minutes ago, what do you do with them then?

I think he sent them to starfall Or just let them go because I don't think it's within ned stark to kill his sister's handmaids

[Frey family reunion]

8 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I think he sent them to starfall Or just let them go because I don't think it's within ned stark to kill his sister's handmaids

So he forced her handmaids into pulling down a tower?  And then let them wander the desert? What a gentleman.

[Daenerysthegreat]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

So he forced her handmaids into pulling down a tower?  And then let them wander the desert? What a gentleman.

He must have went with them to starfall picked up jon from there and left the daynes to send them wherever they wanted

[Mister Smikes]

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Apart from Howland, I don't know who "they" might be.  I assume it's whomever is waiting to prepare her body after death.  "They" refers to two or more people, a group of people in general, or a group of people in authority regarded collectively.

Or Howland Reed and one other person.

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Since her bones were returned to Winterfell; I assume this is what happened next.   Typically, it's the Silent Sisters who prepare bodies after death.

I was half joking when I said that "they" were Ned's personal entourage of Silent Sisters who follow him around carrying jars of beetles.  It's not impossible, but on the whole, I don't think it is very likely, that, in an apparently secluded and secret location, a bunch of Silent Sisters with the right tools just happened to be waiting around for someone to die. 

There's a more normal way of handling such situations.  One places the body in a protected tomb or grave; and when the process of decomposition is completed, one transfers the bones to a more permanent resting place.  Many cultures have done this, to one extent or another.

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That they had found him still holding her body; implies that Ned had been with her for a while and her death was anticipated.  The fact that he doesn't remember anything afterwards is problematic.

The implication I see that is he was overcome by grief, and that he was "still" holding her, even though she was dead for some unspecified period of time.  Which suggests to me that "they" learned of Lyanna's death at about the same time they found Ned.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

14 hours ago, corbon said:

Like what?

 

As I said, I'm hoping to not have a huge semantic debate here, but in reading this part of Ned's conversation with Robert:

Quote

Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy

The most obvious and likely conclusion to me and most other people is that Ned previously told Robert that Jon's mother was named Wylla. I know you have an elaborate theory where he never technically says that and Robert just makes that assumption and Ned doesn't correct him, etc. (assumptions that don't have direct textual evidence, to respond to your second question), but I don't find it very convincing compared to the straightforward interpretation of the text, and I don't think most other readers do either.

 

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

There's a more normal way of handling such situations.  One places the body in a protected tomb or grave; and when the process of decomposition is completed, one transfers the bones to a more permanent resting place.  Many cultures have done this, to one extent or another.

I don't claim to know what happened at the ToJ.  I believe the Silent Sisters boil the body to remove the flesh.  Ugh.  There are a lot of holes in the story for me.  

[Mister Smikes]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I believe the Silent Sisters boil the body to remove the flesh.  Ugh.  

I agree with the "ugh" part. 

But I don't think they do, or if they do, they keep it to themselves, out of respect for the dead and their families.  Silent for a reason, maybe.

Barristan objects to boiling Quentyn to his bones, presumably because he thinks it disrespectful.  Another reference has a character boasting that he will boil someone's head and use the skull as a drinking cup, which is deliberately disrespectful.  I know of no other references.    

[LynnS]

A search of Ice and Fire seems to be down right now.  There is a dream passage of Jon's where he is cavorting with Ygritte in a hot pool while a wierwood with Ned's face looks on.  He leaves the pool and the water boils the flesh from Ygritte's body.  I'm not sure of the meaning but I have wondered if this has something to do with Lyanna rather than Ygritte.  Jon's guilt is about producing a bastard.  Perhaps this is a weirwood memory of Ned's and Jon is the bastard.

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I agree with the "ugh" part. 

But I don't think they do, or if they do, they keep it to themselves, out of respect for the dead and their families.  Silent for a reason, maybe.

Barristan objects to boiling Quentyn to his bones, presumably because he thinks it disrespectful.  Another reference has a character boasting that he will boil someone's head and use the skull as a drinking cup, which is deliberately disrespectful.  I know of no other references.    

Boiling bones appears to be traditional in Ghis:

Quote

"Your Grace," said Missandei, "Ghiscari inter their honored dead in crypts below their manses. If you would boil the bones clean and return them to their kin, it would be a kindness."

Barristan thinks of using beetles instead of boling for Quentyn, but it is  not clear if this is due to Westerosi custom, to better preserve the bones or due to the dragons flying around.

Quote

Missandei pulled the coverlet over the prince’s face. “What will be done with him, ser? He is so very far from home.”

“I’ll see that he’s returned to Dorne.” But how? As ashes? That would require more fire, and Ser Barristan could not stomach that. We’ll need to strip the flesh from his bones. Beetles, not boiling. The silent sisters would have seen to it at home, but this was Slaver’s Bay. The nearest silent sister was ten thousand leagues away.

 

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

Boiling bones appears to be traditional in Ghis:

"Your Grace," said Missandei, "Ghiscari inter their honored dead in crypts below their manses. If you would boil the bones clean and return them to their kin, it would be a kindness."

Thanks for the quote. 

Clearly, it is traditional for the Ghiscari to inter their honored dead in crypts.  It is less clear that it is traditional to boil them first.

Look at the extraordinary context.

Dany takes 163 Meereenese citizens and nails them, alive, to posts.  Then she has their bellies slit, and then listens to their groans as they slowly die.  Then, after they are dead, she leaves them on the posts to rot, until corpse flies are starting to become a problem.  Finally, someone dares to suggest:  Your majesty, I know you're pissed about the 163 children, but these rotting corpses are starting to become a problem.  They are so rotten that Grey Worm will not merely need sacks for the corpses.  He will need a shovel too.

Missandei ventures to push it a little further, and suggest they boil the bones clean and return them to their relatives.

The alternative is to present the relatives with a tortured, disemboweled, rotted and maggot-ridden corpse.  In short, these corpses have already been so horrifically disrespected that a little boiling can add nothing to the disrespect, and, at this late stage, might even alleviate it a bit.

Quote

Barristan thinks of using beetles instead of boling for Quentyn, but it is  not clear if this is due to Westerosi custom, to better preserve the bones or due to the dragons flying around.

There are several references where Westerosi people, mainly Wildlings and Freys, talk of boiling people or their corpses.  These all seem to be insults.

[Tucu]

34 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Thanks for the quote. 

Clearly, it is traditional for the Ghiscari to inter their honored dead in crypts.  It is less clear that it is traditional to boil them first.

Look at the extraordinary context.

Dany takes 163 Meereenese citizens and nails them, alive, to posts.  Then she has their bellies slit, and then listens to their groans as they slowly die.  Then, after they are dead, she leaves them on the posts to rot, until corpse flies are starting to become a problem.  Finally, someone dares to suggest:  Your majesty, I know you're pissed about the 163 children, but these rotting corpses are starting to become a problem.  They are so rotten that Grey Worm will not merely need sacks for the corpses.  He will need a shovel too.

Missandei ventures to push it a little further, and suggest they boil the bones clean and return them to their relatives.

The alternative is to present the relatives with a tortured, disemboweled, rotted and maggot-ridden corpse.  In short, these corpses have already been so horrifically disrespected that a little boiling can add nothing to the disrespect, and, at this late stage, might even alleviate it a bit.

There are several references where Westerosi people, mainly Wildlings and Freys, talk of boiling people or their corpses.  These all seem to be insults.

I don't think GRRM intends this as an insult. Medieval "Mos Teutonicus" was a process of bone preservation for nobility that died far away from home (i.e. the crusades) and it involved boiling the body parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mos_Teutonicus

 

 

[Mister Smikes]

58 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I don't think GRRM intends this as an insult. Medieval "Mos Teutonicus" was a process of bone preservation for nobility that died far away from home (i.e. the crusades) and it involved boiling the body parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mos_Teutonicus

Not sure what you mean by "GRRM intends this".  Most of the references to boiling people in the books are indeed intended as insults by the people who make them (mostly Freys and Wildlings).  Barristan does not intend boiling to be an insult because he has no intention of doing it.  Missandei does not intend boiling to be an insult because the situation has already passed far beyond insult.

Thanks for the Mos Teutonicus reference.  That was indeed interesting.  Note however that the Pope outlawed the practice in 1300 because, well, ... ugh.  Imagine Ned chopping up his sister, putting her in a pot, and boiling her for hours.  Or maybe he got Howland to do it for him while he was making the cairns.

Note also, that it is called the "German custom" partly because the English (and French) were averse to it.  Westeros is based on Britain more than on anything else.  One can imagine the French and English shaking their heads in disgust and saying "stupid Germans!"

[Tucu]

37 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not sure what you mean by "this".  Most of the references to boiling people in the books are indeed intended as insults by the people who make them (mostly Freys and Wildlings).  Barristan does not intend boiling to be an insult because he has no intention of doing it.  Missandei does not intend boiling to be an insult because the situation has already passed far beyond insult.

Thanks for the Mos Teutonicus reference.  That was indeed interesting.  Note however that the Pope outlawed the practice in 1300 because, well, ... ugh.  Imagine Ned chopping up his sister, putting her in a pot, and boiling her for hours.  Or maybe he got Howland to do it for him while he was making the cairns.

Note also, that it is called the "German custom" partly because the English (and French) were averse to it.  Westeros is based on Britain more than on anything else.

I mean the boiling reference when used by the wildlings (can't find the Frey quotes). For example:

Quote

It's your bones I'll be rattling soon, Halfhand. I'll boil the flesh off you and make a byrnie from your ribs. I'll carve your teeth to cast me runes, and eat me oaten porridge from your skull

Quote

"Come take him then," said Tormund, "but best come with sword in hand, for that's where you'll find mine. Might be I'll boil your bones, and use your skull to piss in. Har!"

The insults are the abuse of the bones after the boiling.

[Mister Smikes]

30 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I mean the boiling reference when used by the wildlings (can't find the Frey quotes). For example:

The insults are the abuse of the bones after the boiling.

On second glance, the Frey references are to "boil" someone in the sense of making them angry which does not really count.

The wildling references are intended as insults from beginning to end.  I really don't think it is intended as "first I am going to respect your corpse, and then I am going to disrespect it."  I

Aegor Rivers did order his followers to boil the flesh off his skull and encase it in gold.  But that's hardly normal.

 

[Mister Smikes]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

A search of Ice and Fire seems to be down right now.  There is a dream passage of Jon's where he is cavorting with Ygritte in a hot pool while a wierwood with Ned's face looks on.  He leaves the pool and the water boils the flesh from Ygritte's body.  I'm not sure of the meaning but I have wondered if this has something to do with Lyanna rather than Ygritte.  Jon's guilt is about producing a bastard.  Perhaps this is a weirwood memory of Ned's and Jon is the bastard.

The passage does not use the word "boil".  Search >Winterfell sloughing< and it will come up.  No clue on what it means.

[Walda]

@Tucu, thanks for the Mos Teutonicus reference. In the "see also" section there was a link to "Excarnation", where there was this

Quote

The Moriori people of the Chatham Islands (now part of New Zealand) placed their dead in a sitting position in the sand dunes looking out to sea; others were strapped to young trees in the forest. In time, the tree grew into and through the bones, making them one.

 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

@Tucu, thanks for the Mos Teutonicus reference. In the "see also" section there was a link to "Excarnation", where there was this

Nice find. The Moriori also carved figures of ancestors and nature on living trees. Some of the designs from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori#/media/File:Transactions_of_the_Royal_Society_of_New_Zealand_(1901)_(14577912959).jpg