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Who's "they" ?

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35 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I made a comment about a basic norm of argumentation that the person making a claim is expected to back it up if they want to convince people 

That's up to me whether or how much I want to convince people, and that applies to you equally.  I can argue as much and as little as I please, and so can you.  I don't owe you my time, and you don't owe me yours.  Neither of us has any obligation to convince or  be convinced by the other.  Either one of us can bow out at any time, wait for the books to come out, and see if we guessed correctly.

Fair?  Seems fair to me.

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and you reacted with this over the top melodramatic indignation as though I were a tyrant claiming authority over you and issuing a legal decree. 

Did I call you a tyrant?  But dude.  That's exactly what a "burden of proof" is.  It is a legal standard assigned to certain parties by the court and/or the law in certain contexts.  And you ain't the law.  And you ain't the court.  Agreed?

Seems pretty simple to me.  If you really agree with me, just agree with me and move on.   

Edited by Mister Smikes

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You two make me laugh my butt off. Both of you are effectively slamming your head on the indestructible first wall of Minas Tirith. 

 

Anyway. I'm fairly certain that "they" is just Howland, the wet nurse, midwives, maybe a maester.....idk. 

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1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

You two make me laugh my butt off.

Happy to entertain.

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Both of you are effectively slamming your head on the indestructible first wall of Minas Tirith. 

Probably a fair assessment

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Anyway. I'm fairly certain that "they" is just Howland, the wet nurse, midwives, maybe a maester.....idk. 

I would think the midwife and nurse and maybe maester would be already there.   I think "they" includes Howland and one other, who I would guess is not merely some random dude or gal.

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10 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I would think the midwife and nurse and maybe maester would be already there.   I think "they" includes Howland and one other, who I would guess is not merely some random dude or gal.

Wylla maybe? And I don't think it'll be random......it's going to have to be someone that Rhaegar trusted quite a bit. Wylla could be there because Ser Arthur knows her and trusts her, and we have that Rhaegar and Arthur were buddies.....it would help fix the starving baby scenario if Wylla's there. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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11 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Wylla maybe? And I don't think it'll be random......it's going to have to be someone that Rhaegar trusted quite a bit. Wylla could be there because Ser Arthur knows her and trusts her, and we have that Rhaegar and Arthur were buddies.....it would help fix the starving baby scenario if Wylla's there. 

Yeah.  Someone like that  Someone we've heard of.  Perhaps we should make a list.

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  • Wylla, most likely
  • Howland 

And whoever else pops up can be added. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Did I call you a tyrant?

I'm not an English teacher but if you need me to explain to you what the phrase "as though I were" means and how it indicates a comparison that does not constitute a claim that you literally said what follows, I suppose I can.

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's exactly what a "burden of proof" is.  It is a legal standard assigned to certain parties by the court and/or the law in certain contexts.  And you ain't the law.  And you ain't the court.  Agreed?

Yes, dude, you got me, I am literally the law and this is my courtroom. I totally wasn't using a common phrase in an informal manner, I actually am the judge, jury, and executioner around here.

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6 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:
  • Wylla, most likely
  • Howland 

And whoever else pops up can be added. 

I think he is referring to William Dustin.  Don't ask, you don't want to know.  Calling it ridiculous and absurd gives it way too much credit. 

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2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think he is referring to William Dustin.  Don't ask, you don't want to know.  Calling it ridiculous and absurd gives it way too much credit. 

I didn't say anything about Lord Dustin, though......

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9 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I didn't say anything about Lord Dustin, though......

Nah, that was my theory.  They really hate it. 

Another idea I had was Ashara.  Of course, she was supposed to be at Starfall, but that could be wrong.

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15 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I totally wasn't using a common phrase in an informal manner, 

Okay then.  Informally, you can say the burden of proof is on me; and I can say the burden of proof is on you; and it means the exact same thing coming from each of us, which is nothing at all.

 

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

I would think the midwife and nurse and maybe maester would be already there. 

Indeed. But 'they' could certainly including anyone who was already at ToJ before Ned arrived (ie any noncombatants from the KG party, or from Ned's party for that matter, though thats harder as none are mentioned as we see Ned's group 'riding up') that are not mentioned. 'Finding him', in context, doesn't mean 'not previously knowing he was there', just that when they stopped giving him 'alone time' with his dying sister, that was the situation they 'found' him in.

Quote

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

 

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6 minutes ago, corbon said:

Indeed. But 'they' could certainly including anyone who was already at ToJ before Ned arrived (ie any noncombatants from the KG party, or from Ned's party for that matter, though thats harder as none are mentioned as we see Ned's group 'riding up') that are not mentioned. 'Finding him', in context, doesn't mean 'not previously knowing he was there', just that when they stopped giving him 'alone time' with his dying sister, that was the situation they 'found' him in.

That seems counterintuitive to me, but I suppose I can't absolutely rule it out.

I suppose one thing that would help it make sense is if she asked everyone to leave so she could speak to him alone.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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48 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Another idea I had was Ashara.  Of course, she was supposed to be at Starfall, but that could be wrong.

Ashara being at ToJ is actually an almost reasonable proposition. Its biggest problem is it makes very little sense when combined with her supposed suicide from the Palestone Tower when, or shortly after, Ned was at Starfall. Its not impossible to reconcile these two things, but requires things not given in the text (as does the idea she was there at all) and fails to provide an explanation why the Starfall fold think Ashara is the lover and Wylla the side-bit while Robert, who knows Ned best, thinks Wylla is the only 'bit' Ned ever had and never thinks about Ashara at all?

 

3 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

That seems counterintuitive to me, but I suppose I can't absolutely rule it out.

Why is it counterintuitive?

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Just now, Mister Smikes said:

I don't really care to analyze.  Like I said, it could make sense

No, you didn't. Counterintuitive means contrary to common-sense or 'doesn't make sense'. You merely admitted it couldn't be absoluetly ruled out.
So you actually said the opposite.
Not 'could make sense', but 'makes no sense but isn't impossible'.

Lacking an explanation, it looks like your subtext is "I didn't think of that so it can't be reasonable and I refuse to acknowledge it as such, but I can't actually disprove it". 

You aren't obligated to reply further. Or to explain. But after a starting even default point, ideas (or theories) get the respect, or disrespect, they earn. You seem to think all ideas are equal. Thats a nice sounding theory. Its bullshit for real, even amongst the people who say it. The truth is that ideas (and theories) are not equal, and don't get equal respect. Overall (there are always outliers) they get respect based on the data and arguments behind them because humans are built to make judgements on the world around them so they can makes sense of it and act successfully. 
And, often a considerable portion of respect comes out of the intellectual honesty being used when arguing ideas.

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10 minutes ago, corbon said:

No, you didn't. Counterintuitive means contrary to common-sense or 'doesn't make sense'. 

No.  I meant that it feels wrong to me on a subjective level which I have not tried to analyze.  Contrary to my intuition.  Hence, counterintuitive.  

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46 minutes ago, corbon said:

Ashara being at ToJ is actually an almost reasonable proposition. Its biggest problem is it makes very little sense when combined with her supposed suicide from the Palestone Tower when, or shortly after, Ned was at Starfall. Its not impossible to reconcile these two things, but requires things not given in the text (as does the idea she was there at all) and fails to provide an explanation why the Starfall fold think Ashara is the lover and Wylla the side-bit while Robert, who knows Ned best, thinks Wylla is the only 'bit' Ned ever had and never thinks about Ashara at all?

I have no disagreement with any of this.  

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2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nah, that was my theory.  They really hate it

I did read a theory once that they didn't start fighting almost immediately, but instead they let him into the tower. After the tower visit was done, he said he'd take his sister's child back north to raise as his own (This would require R+L=J to be true in order to work). The Kingsguard refuse, and then the fighting starts. I don't think it's likely, but it could help explain "they". 

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Another idea I had was Ashara.  Of course, she was supposed to be at Starfall, but that could be wrong.

Well, I do seem to recall GRRM saying that Ashara wasn't bolted to the floor of Starfall

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50 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Well, I do seem to recall GRRM saying that Ashara wasn't bolted to the floor of Starfall

Now that you mention it, that sounds familiar.

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