Why do people hate these starks

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

 

Ned had to have been aware of this on some level, so I'm not even sure why he played things the way he did. You'd think for the sake of domestic tranquility for all involved he'd either have Jon live in a nearby holdfast a day's ride down the road or something so he could still be something of a father figure to him while he was immediately out of sight or just swear Catelyn to secrecy and tell her the truth concerning Jon. 

the thing is Ned's a man in this world , one who had always been somewhat powerful. Just the same as many men in real world he simply would be shortsighted in the matter as we see him pray that his lady wife forgive him and Robb and Jon grow up as brothers. I think he only realizes after years how Cat feels although she had forgave him. he wanted to be Jon's father and give him the life he gives his own trueborn children so of course he wants to keep him close . besides , keeping Jon somewhere else would only anger little Jon in another way ... right now he knows Ned loves him and sees Ned's children as his siblings. even his jealousy towards Robb shames him . if he grew up somewhere else he'd feel abandoned by both his parents and would have hated his siblings for having so much more....sigh...so there is really no easy answer. I think if we ever realize Jon's parentage ( probably Lyanna and Rhaegar) we can understand why Ned initially was wary of telling the woman he barely knew his big secret and doesn't tell her over the years since it must seem like the safest choice. so I have never thought Ned as a villain  . though I get why @Daenerysthegreat wouldn't like Ned if she thinks he and Waylla are Jon's parents!

[Mourning Star]

Perhaps unlike many, I love these discussions and think they are valuable to considering the plot. Why do we “like” some Starks and not others (or feel some way about them all)? What standards are we using to judge them? What overall message or arc do these characters represent? Obviously, these answers will vary for each of us personally, but we can also look at the story as a whole and try to interpret what positions the story itself seems to take on various characters and actions. I for one do not think this is a tale promoting a completely gray or completely relativistic view of morality.

Ned - The good man. It is hard for me to read this story and see Ned as anything other than as close to a “good” man as we get (this mantel being taken up by Davos after Ned is gone). His is not without flaws, nor mistakes, but all to often it seems to me people blame him for the wrong things. “Mercy is never a mistake”, is perhaps one of the most telling lines in the entire series. It embodies an ethos of doing what is right over doing what is expedient or profitable, and at the end of the day this distinction, and the inherent good in doing right, is perhaps the single most important moral lesson of the series. Now deciding what is “right” and what is “good” is obviously it’s own conundrum.

Cat - The reactionary. While I find her plight incredibly sympathetic, I very much dislike her, and think she is indirectly responsible for much of the ill that her family goes through. Obviously, her behavior towards Jon is despicable, and highlights (in stark contrast to Ned) one of the moral lessons of the series, it is wrong to blame children for the actions of their parents (and more generally people for things they can’t control). It seems that at her most vulnerable Cat consistently reacts by lashing out, consistently to her own detriment and shame. It doesn’t take much imagination to see how driving Jon off to join the Watch hurt her family, Rob desperately needed a brother and ended up leaning on Theon, and Winterfell desperately needed a custodian. When she panicked and abducted Tyrion because of her misguided accusations and fear, she committed the first open act of violence of the War of Five Kings, sparking the rest of the conflict. And this continues right up until her death, when she murdered a mentally handicapped fool out of pure spite. While I understand she is supposed to be competent, I also question her decision making at numerous points, but that’s enough about her already.

Rob - The brave fool. More so even than his father Rob strives to be honorable. This is largely admirable, but obviously also a glaring flaw. A kid trying his best, whose father left him and got killed and whose mother had a breakdown and negotiated his life away. He always seemed trapped by a crown to heavy for his head.A beautiful snowflake doomed to melt is such a lovely metaphor.

Sansa - The selfish child. Perhaps more than anything I blame her for her part in the death of Micah. Her refusal to tell the truth while men literally hunted her sister and her servant through the woods makes her as responsible as anyone but the hound for his death. The death of Lady symbolizing her choosing herself over her family is sad, but deserved. That she later mocks Micah’s death is reprehensible. The  she again chooses herself over her family and betrays Ned, contributing to his death. One can only hope to see her grow up, but the fact that she seems to be a willing participant in the plot to poison her cousin and marry his heir to usurp his seat does not inspire confidence, although my hope is not all lost that she won’t go through with it and can redeem herself.

Arya - The lost child. Talk about a hard road, it’s hard for me not to sympathize. She is at her best when she remembers who she is, and at her worst when she starts treating the world the way the world has treated her. She isn’t no one, none of us are, and hopefully she will come around to remember both her own value and the value of life in general.

Bran - The child who flew too high. While he may have been told many lessons, he has yet to learn them, and likely will do so the old fashioned way. I think he has a rather hard and dark road ahead, but will likely come out the other side showing us the very lessons he has been told since the stories start.

[WhatAnArtist!]

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Cat - The reactionary. While I find her plight incredibly sympathetic, I very much dislike her, and think she is indirectly responsible for much of the ill that her family goes through. Obviously, her behavior towards Jon is despicable, and highlights (in stark contrast to Ned) one of the moral lessons of the series, it is wrong to blame children for the actions of their parents (and more generally people for things they can’t control). It seems that at her most vulnerable Cat consistently reacts by lashing out, consistently to her own detriment and shame. It doesn’t take much imagination to see how driving Jon off to join the Watch hurt her family, Rob desperately needed a brother and ended up leaning on Theon, and Winterfell desperately needed a custodian. When she panicked and abducted Tyrion because of her misguided accusations and fear, she committed the first open act of violence of the War of Five Kings, sparking the rest of the conflict. And this continues right up until her death, when she murdered a mentally handicapped fool out of pure spite. While I understand she is supposed to be competent, I also question her decision making at numerous points, but that’s enough about her already.

I think you're being a little too harsh on Catelyn. You're right that her behaviour towards Jon was disagraceful, and her decision to kidnap Tyrion was extremely stupid and short-sighted, but she also has positive traits, like a genuine and deep love for her family - both the Starks and the Tullys. Her chapters are filled to the brim with her internal agonising over the problems and sufferings that her family are going through, and how she wishes it could all end. She believes that she's only happy if she's with her family and everyone is getting along. Also, many times in the first three books she urges lords and kings to find a peaceful way to end the fighting, and every time she's mocked or condescended to. She wants the war to end as quickly as possible, even if it means Robb lays down his sword and accepts defeat. She hates war, and refuses to ever celebrate or show joy towards a victorious battle, because to her it's still more unnecessary killing. Not even the most honourable characters - Eddard, Davos, Brienne - share that sentiment. While her son Robb - the one you praise - has a genuine love and passion for war and battle, Catelyn is repulsed by it. She deserves praise for that.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

the thing is Ned's a man in this world , one who had always been somewhat powerful. Just the same as many men in real world he simply would be shortsighted in the matter as we see him pray that his lady wife forgive him and Robb and Jon grow up as brothers. I think he only realizes after years how Cat feels although she had forgave him. he wanted to be Jon's father and give him the life he gives his own trueborn children so of course he wants to keep him close . besides , keeping Jon somewhere else would only anger little Jon in another way ... right now he knows Ned loves him and sees Ned's children as his siblings. even his jealousy towards Robb shames him . if he grew up somewhere else he'd feel abandoned by both his parents and would have hated his siblings for having so much more....sigh...so there is really no easy answer. I think if we ever realize Jon's parentage ( probably Lyanna and Rhaegar) we can understand why Ned initially was wary of telling the woman he barely knew his big secret and doesn't tell her over the years since it must seem like the safest choice. so I have never thought Ned as a villain  . though I get why @Daenerysthegreat wouldn't like Ned if she thinks he and Waylla are Jon's parents!

Yeah, it's a tricky situation and you can tell Ned tried to do the right thing despite it all. Would sending Jon down the road and leaving him with only one part time parent but less strife growing up have been better for him? Or would he have grown up resentful because of that? Who can say?

I can understand Ned's reasons for wanting to initially keep quiet about Jon even to Catelyn. He did barely know her at that point. A few years down the road though should have been a different story and still might have made a huge difference for Jon. But I suppose whatever else we know about Ned, it's that he's rather set in his ways and not adaptable. 

They both could've done better there, but I suppose I give Ned more of a pass because he at least tried and it doesn't seem like Catelyn ever did. Though they're both only human in the end. It's part of what makes it a compelling story. 

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I think you're being a little too harsh on Catelyn. You're right that her behaviour towards Jon was disagraceful, and her decision to kidnap Tyrion was extremely stupid and short-sighted, but she also has positive traits, like a genuine and deep love for her family - both the Starks and the Tullys. Her chapters are filled to the brim with her internal agonising over the problems and sufferings that her family are going through, and how she wishes it could all end. She believes that she's only happy if she's with her family and everyone is getting along. Also, many times in the first three books she urges lords and kings to find a peaceful way to end the fighting, and every time she's mocked or condescended to. She wants the war to end as quickly as possible, even if it means Robb lays down his sword and accepts defeat. She hates war, and refuses to ever celebrate or show joy towards a victorious battle, because to her it's still more unnecessary killing. Not even the most honourable characters - Eddard, Davos, Brienne - share that sentiment. While her son Robb - the one you praise - has a genuine love and passion for war and battle, Catelyn is repulsed by it. She deserves praise for that.

So I started by saying I sympathized with Cat, and I’m not saying there is nothing good about her, at least before becoming the avatar of vengeance in Lady Stoneheart. 

Love for your family is a good trait, but it’s also a pretty low bar. Cat “loves” the Tullys but it seems like she barely knows them. Her understanding of her father was superficial at best, although I find this incredibly forgivable for many reasons. Her relationships with her siblings however seem horrendous, if I’m being honest. And her misplaced faith in Littlefinger, despite their childhood together and that she should clearly know better, perhaps more than any other factor kills Ned.

As a mother she clearly loves her children, if nothing else, that can be said of Cat. Although again, it comes across as pretty devoid of understanding, which undercuts its value… from Bran climbing, to Arya being “wild”, to failing to connect with Rob, and outright neglecting Rickon, she didn’t seem very capable of productively putting that love into practice.

Cat the peacemaker is almost comical in retrospect. Don’t get me wrong I’m all for peace, and there are certainly times where she recommends others resolve things peacefully (and times she doesn’t). Meanwhile she was the one who sparked the conflict, and has no problem with vengeance herself. It comes across as self serving and self centered, and perhaps I am being harsh, but killing Aegon was a pretty brutal example of pointless violence for the sake of vengeance. It was reprehensible even if it was understandable.

"Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be,"

[Nevets]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:31 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

Don't get me wrong I also don't like ned, robb and jon snow but I don't understand the hate towards these starks. 

Catelyn: She is intelligent, kind and loves her family. She also had to tolerate her husband's bastard. She gave good advice to her foolish son which he didn't listen to. What's there to dislike about her? Isn't she a victim? 

Sansa:She is the perfect lady. She manages to survive in kings landing all by herself. She also is kind to even her enemies(Lancel lannister).

Arya :She defies social expectations and manages to survive an war torn land. Adult men could nit do what she could do. 

Bran:He is a child who makes the best if his crippled situation. He was brave even before becoming a cripple. He also decides to pass the dangerous beyond the beyond the wall. 

Rickon:He is five years old and extremely innocent. How can people even hate him. 

 

Catelyn - Catelyn is disliked for her perceived ill-treatment of Jon, and for her unwise, emotionally-driven decisions to arrest Tyrion and to release Jaime.  Jon fans in particular frequently dislike her for the first, and many others think she's stupid for the rest.

Catelyn wasn't particularly mean to Jon.  She merely ignored him, for the most part.  They live in a large castle, not a three-bedroom house, for heaven's sake, with plenty of staff to take care of him.  Yes she snapped at him when she was with Bran, but also was under severe mental strain with Bran's condition, which she partially blamed herself for.  

As for the other decisions, she had good reason for believing Tyrion guilty.  She also had no idea how unbalanced her sister had become.  Jaime . . . that was bad.  But, she also gave Robb solid advice (or tried to), and advocated for making peace with the Lannisters after Ned's death.  

A mixed bag, but hardly hateful.

 

Sansa - Sansa gets blamed for the death of Lady and for going to Cersei just before the Stark purge.  Her silence about Joffrey's actions was regrettable but understandable under the circumstances.  She was being asked to tell the King that his son (and her betrothed) wad a liar and a bully, and in front of a hostile audience, at that.  Of course she said nothing!  By the way, Mycah was essentially dead by then.  His fate was sealed far earlier.  Her telling Cersei about their plans was unwise, but she had no idea how bad things were between Cersei and Ned.  Ned was doomed anyway, but it did get herself caught, which caused problems.

Since that point, she has improved greatly.  She is a quick learner, and her kindness and empathy have served her well, and will continue to do so.  I regard her as one of the nicest, most decent people in the series, but some readers can't look past her actions in the first book.  And to be honest, she is a bit of tough pill to swallow early on, although at this point, she is one of my favorites.

 

Arya - Little girls who go around murdering people are ripe for being hated on, and Arya is no exception.  I like her resourcefulness, intelligence, and her way with people,, but her willingness to commit violence is quite concerning.  I think that she will eventually pull herself out of the morass she has found herself in, but it will be difficult.   Unlike her sister, she has gotten worse as the story has gone along.  However, I think her Stark/Tully upbringing will stand her in good stead, and she still has a moral compass, wobbly though it is.  Unfortunately, some readers fail to recognize that, violent though she may be, she does have limits she won't go beyond.  I regard her as a favorite, but I worry.

 

Bran - He gets dislike for his takeovers of Hodor.  Otherwise, I think he is OK.  I have no real strong thoughts about him, one way or the other.

 

Ned - Ned is a decent guy who made some mistakes while in KL.   Blaming him for what has happened is going way too far, though.  If you want to blame anyone, target Cersei.  She actually deserves it. Her and Littlefinger.  Ned was unprepared for their venality, and had good reason to believe that his actions would be backed up by Robert.  His biggest mistake was not acting decisively once it became apparent that Robert was dying.  That, was his undoing, along with trusting Littlefinger.  He let an overly rigid sense of honor get the best of him.  He was a very decent man, and his kids are decent, as well (and to the extent they aren't decent is despite his upbringing, not because of it).  Arya, for example, would probably be even worse without Ned and Catelyn having raised her.

 

[Lord Lannister]

12 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Catelyn - Catelyn is disliked for her perceived ill-treatment of Jon, and for her unwise, emotionally-driven decisions to arrest Tyrion and to release Jaime.  Jon fans hate her for the first, and everyone else thinks she's stupid for the others.

 

I'm not a Jon fan. It's wrong no matter who the child is. Making a dismissive comment about people with the opinion is just an attempt to distract from the issue.

[Nevets]

8 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm not a Jon fan. It's wrong no matter who the child is. Making a dismissive comment about people with the opinion is just an attempt to distract from the issue.

Perhaps I need to do some editing to make myself clearer.  I am a Jon fan myself, but I have always regarded much of the criticism of Catelyn to be overstated.  My impression is that she primarily ignored and avoided him, something that is easy to do in a castle the size of Winterfell.  She also regarded him (or his descendants) as a potential threat to the rights of her trueborn children, a not unreasonable concern in the setting of the novels.  Her dislike of Jon is an obvious flaw in her character.  As flaw go in this series, I would put it at the mild end, though.  

[Lord Lannister]

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Perhaps I need to do some editing to make myself clearer.  I am a Jon fan myself, but I have always regarded much of the criticism of Catelyn to be overstated.  My impression is that she primarily ignored and avoided him, something that is easy to do in a castle the size of Winterfell.  She also regarded him (or his descendants) as a potential threat to the rights of her trueborn children, a not unreasonable concern in the setting of the novels.  Her dislike of Jon is an obvious flaw in her character.  As flaw go in this series, I would put it at the mild end, though.  

Well this thread is about why people don't like certain characters. I think I discussed my own perspective there well enough with my conversation with @EggBlue. She's definitely not a Joffrey or Ramsay or anything that twisted. Just that impression in how she treated Jon always left a sour taste in my mouth. @WhatAnArtist! summed up Catelyn's positive traits fairly well which I agree with mostly. I always found her story one of my favorites(up until Stoneheart as you say) simply because we get to see the tragic hero's tale in Robb told through his mother's eyes which is a very interesting perspective.

[Arthur Peres]

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Ned - The good man. It is hard for me to read this story and see Ned as anything other than as close to a “good” man as we get (this mantel being taken up by Davos after Ned is gone). His is not without flaws, nor mistakes, but all to often it seems to me people blame him for the wrong things. “Mercy is never a mistake”, is perhaps one of the most telling lines in the entire series. It embodies an ethos of doing what is right over doing what is expedient or profitable, and at the end of the day this distinction, and the inherent good in doing right, is perhaps the single most important moral lesson of the series. Now deciding what is “right” and what is “good” is obviously it’s own conundrum.

 

Agree 100%

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Cat - The reactionary. While I find her plight incredibly sympathetic, I very much dislike her, and think she is indirectly responsible for much of the ill that her family goes through. Obviously, her behavior towards Jon is despicable, and highlights (in stark contrast to Ned) one of the moral lessons of the series, it is wrong to blame children for the actions of their parents (and more generally people for things they can’t control). It seems that at her most vulnerable Cat consistently reacts by lashing out, consistently to her own detriment and shame. It doesn’t take much imagination to see how driving Jon off to join the Watch hurt her family, Rob desperately needed a brother and ended up leaning on Theon, and Winterfell desperately needed a custodian. When she panicked and abducted Tyrion because of her misguided accusations and fear, she committed the first open act of violence of the War of Five Kings, sparking the rest of the conflict. And this continues right up until her death, when she murdered a mentally handicapped fool out of pure spite. While I understand she is supposed to be competent, I also question her decision making at numerous points, but that’s enough about her already.

 

I would even throw more shade at her... She is too selfcentered, and while her behaviour of morning Bran is more than understandable, her decision to go to KL and letting her son(that already was asking for her help) alone to rule(while Bran still in coma) does not present a pretty picture... From the start Catelyn already showed signs of putting her revenge above anything else. 

I'm not so sure about her being competent... she has a good sense, but her decisions are awful... She backstabed her own son.

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Rob - The brave fool. More so even than his father Rob strives to be honorable. This is largely admirable, but obviously also a glaring flaw. A kid trying his best, whose father left him and got killed and whose mother had a breakdown and negotiated his life away. He always seemed trapped by a crown to heavy for his head.A beautiful snowflake doomed to melt is such a lovely metaphor.

 

I don't think if fair to call Robb a fool. He was just facing impossible odds from the start. He had a giant shoes to fill, against a enemy that most people were terrified, he was cut off from anyone that could support him, his mother went crazy with grieve, his brother are send away, or too young, his sisters and father are prisoners, he is betrayed by his vassals(Frey, Bolton and Karstarks), his family (Catelyn freeing Jaime), his best friend (Theon).  

People give him too much crap... but there is no one that could win on his situation, everything that could go wrong went worse...

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Sansa - The selfish child. Perhaps more than anything I blame her for her part in the death of Micah. Her refusal to tell the truth while men literally hunted her sister and her servant through the woods makes her as responsible as anyone but the hound for his death. The death of Lady symbolizing her choosing herself over her family is sad, but deserved. That she later mocks Micah’s death is reprehensible. The  she again chooses herself over her family and betrays Ned, contributing to his death. One can only hope to see her grow up, but the fact that she seems to be a willing participant in the plot to poison her cousin and marry his heir to usurp his seat does not inspire confidence, although my hope is not all lost that she won’t go through with it and can redeem herself.

 

Even worse than that, she ignored that Cersei was the one that called for Lady execution, she also ignored that the Lannisters already had attacked her father on the streets and killed his guards, men that she knew, but she also ignored that... Sansa had it comming, too bad it spilled on the rest of her family.

 

[EggBlue]

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

I don't think if fair to call Robb a fool. He was just facing impossible odds from the start. He had a giant shoes to fill, against a enemy that most people were terrified, he was cut off from anyone that could support him, his mother went crazy with grieve, his brother are send away, or too young, his sisters and father are prisoners, he is betrayed by his vassals(Frey, Bolton and Karstarks), his family (Catelyn freeing Jaime), his best friend (Theon).  

People give him too much crap... but there is no one that could win on his situation, everything that could go wrong went worse...

 

 

completely agree. poor Robb. he is the most similar to Ned among Stark kids. he was just facing Tywin Lannister instead of Aerys Targaryen 

[Hrulj]

18 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

This is not real life this is a mediaeval place where she has survived through rapists, murderers etc. If you think 11 year olds are all clumsy I'll introduce you to some. She didn't muder her enemies through brute force she murdered them being  quiet and quick ans small. 

An 11 yearold can't be quick and quiet. Yes please, lets have a 30 yearold man beat and wail on an 11 yearold girl, that will go great to prove a point. Kids are weak, stupid and clumsy. Arya should have been introduced skull first to a wall at terminal velocity at first opportunity where she tried her BS. 

[Nevets]

17 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

An 11 yearold can't be quick and quiet. Yes please, lets have a 30 yearold man beat and wail on an 11 yearold girl, that will go great to prove a point. Kids are weak, stupid and clumsy. Arya should have been introduced skull first to a wall at terminal velocity at first opportunity where she tried her BS. 

Two of the people she killed she stabbed while standing next to them.   Two or three more she slashed their throats with a dagger.  And the Tickler she stabbed repeatedly while he was fighting the Hound.  None of these required physical dexterity.  By the time her victims knew what was happening, they were effectively dead. 

She has been relying on surprise and a good bit of luck.  I also expect that her sword training and practice have made her less clumsy than she might otherwise be.  Still, if anyone sees her coming she is likely to get curb-stomped. 

[SeanF]

WRT Ned, I’d argue that his treatment of Jon was not great, whether he was his natural son, or his nephew.

He gave him a roof over his head, and an education.  That makes him better than the worst lords in this series, but makes him no better than Tywin Lannister with Joy Hill, or Walder Frey with various offspring out of wedlock.

If one re-reads Jon’s first POV chapter, a big reason why he wants to join the Nights Watch is because he expects to be destitute.  Robb will get Winterfell, Sansa and Arya will get good marriages, Bran and Rickon will get holdfasts.  He will get nothing.  At best, he’ll be living off Robb’s charity.  If Ned had plans for Jon, he never communicated them.

Ned must have known that the Watch was just a penal colony, given his brother was first ranger.  Jon was likely to meet a quick death if he joined it, and it’s no thanks to Ned that he survived.  Had he survived, he would have    been barred from marrying or having children.  A good parent would have strongly urged his son against joining.

If Jon is in fact, his nephew, then Ned’s behaviour is worse.  Sheltering an orphaned nephew is the very least a good uncle should do in a world where family is everything.  Leaving that boy with no knowledge of who his mother was is pretty poor.  Knowing that that boy has a potential claim to the throne and sending him off to the Wall is bad.  Worse, Ned is actually usurping his claim, by marrying his daughter to Joffrey, while ensuring his nephew will die childless.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

WRT Ned, I’d argue that his treatment of Jon was not great, whether he was his natural son, or his nephew.

He gave him a roof over his head, and an education.  That makes him better than the worst lords in this series, but makes him no better than Tywin Lannister with Joy Hill, or Walder Frey with various offspring out of wedlock.

If one re-reads Jon’s first POV chapter, a big reason why he wants to join the Nights Watch is because he expects to be destitute.  Robb will get Winterfell, Sansa and Arya will get good marriages, Bran and Rickon will get holdfasts.  He will get nothing.  At best, he’ll be living off Robb’s charity.  If Ned had plans for Jon, he never communicated them.

Ned must have known that the Watch was just a penal colony, given his brother was first ranger.  Jon was likely to meet a quick death if he joined it, and it’s no thanks to Ned that he survived.  Had he survived, he would have    been barred from marrying or having children.  A good parent would have strongly urged his son against joining.

If Jon is in fact, his nephew, then Ned’s behaviour is worse.  Sheltering an orphaned nephew is the very least a good uncle should do in a world where family is everything.  Leaving that boy with no knowledge of who his mother was is pretty poor.  Knowing that that boy has a potential claim to the throne and sending him off to the Wall is bad.  Worse, Ned is actually usurping his claim, by marrying his daughter to Joffrey, while ensuring his nephew will die childless.

If Jon Is actually R+L, that is the right approach because he doesn’t want Roberts attention

[SeanF]

49 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

If Jon Is actually R+L, that is the right approach because he doesn’t want Roberts attention

Sending someone to the Wall is sending him to his death, unless he’s very lucky.  That’s why it’s used as an alternative to the death penalty.  Almost everyone there is a criminal.

Jon only survived by a succession of flukes.

It makes sense to send him there, however, if you want to get an unwanted relative out of the way.

There was nothing to stop Ned, a very wealthy man, from granting lands to Jon.  Nor from providing him with armour, horses and weapons, and sending him to be a squire for a lord in the North or Vale.  

Catelyn gets a lot of stick for her treatment of Jon, but Ned's the one who really did not do right by him.

[SeanF]

Martin has called the Starks “heroes”, but I think he has his own (realistic) view of heroes;  namely heroes are not sinless. Heroes may do bad things on occasion, even if we mostly consider them to be on the side of right.

That’s true to life.  Even the best and noblest of leaders throughout history have possessed flaws and blind spots.

So, Ned is a mostly good man whose devotion to Robert is foolish, and whose treatment of Jon leaves much to be desired.

Catelyn is one of the few of her class who gives a damn for the smallfolk, yet her treatment of Jon is unkind.

Jon himself is mostly good, but quite capable of doing bad things, like stealing Gilly’s child or betraying Ygritte, if he thinks it’s for the greater good.

Robb is noble and kind, yet his soldiers inflict atrocities (as we would term them) on the smallfolk.

Sansa possesses kindness and empathy, yet tells lies and takes bribes.

Arya is about the only character who views the smallfolk as equals, and looks after her comrades, but is in danger of treating killing as the solution to every problem.

People are complicated.

[WhatAnArtist!]

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't think if fair to call Robb a fool. He was just facing impossible odds from the start. He had a giant shoes to fill, against a enemy that most people were terrified, he was cut off from anyone that could support him, his mother went crazy with grieve, his brother are send away, or too young, his sisters and father are prisoners, he is betrayed by his vassals(Frey, Bolton and Karstarks), his family (Catelyn freeing Jaime), his best friend (Theon).  

I don't dislike Robb on a personal basis - I think he's a likeable and honourable young man in most regards - but in my opinion he absolutely was foolish for many reasons. The three big mistakes he made - despite knowing the dire consequences that could possibly result from each of them - were, in order: 

- Sending Theon to Pike despite there being the very real risk that he would defect when he reached his real family and was pressured to conform to their culture - exactly as Catelyn warned, and exactly as it ended up.

- Breaking his marriage agreement with the Freys, a severe insult and a dishonourable action - yes, marrying Jeyne was also honourable in its own way, but breaking your word with a powerful lord is a big no-no, and Robb should have known that. He knew how unreliable Walder Frey was, and how important he was for the war cause. Robb should have thought about the practical consequences of this.

- Executing Karstark. Yes, it absolutely was the honourable thing to do, and Eddard would have approved and probably done the same,  but as Martin is apt to remind us, the honourable thing is often not the smart thing. Losing the entire strength of one of your most powerful bannermen over the death of a couple of hostages was not a good trade-off from a pragmatic point of view. 

Ultimately, Robb's downfall was the same as Eddard's - he put honour over pragmatism, and paid the price for it. No one disputes that Robb had a strong sense of personal honour, but I don't think it's accurate to say he wasn't foolish. Look at the situation at the start of ACoK compared to midway through ASoS - at the start of ACoK, he'd won every battle he'd fought, routed the Lannisters several times, had the full strength of the North and the riverlands with him, and his own homeland was completely protected. But because of the three decisions listed above, by midway through ASoS - despite still not having lost any battles - he: had lost parts of the North to the Greyjoys and had his capital burned down because of Theon, had turned Walder Frey into a ruthless enemy (the most strategically important of all the riverlands lords), and had lost a sizable part of his Northern host because of executing his own bannerman. No wonder the Lannisters felt so confident in beating him.

I disagree with your claim that he was facing "impossible odds to begin with". He had the full strength of the North and the riverlands behind him, and his early victories gave him a strong strategic position. Additionally, until midway through ACoK, he was fighting only one enemy - the Lannisters, focused mostly on the south-western front. The Lannisters, on the other hand, were having to defend themselves on three different fronts - north against the Starks and Tullys, east against Stannis, and south against Renly. It's the Lannisters that were in the abysmally bad position until the victory at Blackwater.

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sending someone to the Wall is sending him to his death, unless he’s very lucky.  That’s why it’s used as an alternative to the death penalty.  Almost everyone there is a criminal.

Jon only survived by a succession of flukes.

It makes sense to send him there, however, if you want to get an unwanted relative out of the way.

There was nothing to stop Ned, a very wealthy man, from granting lands to Jon.  Nor from providing him with armour, horses and weapons, and sending him to be a squire for a lord in the North or Vale.  

Catelyn gets a lot of stick for her treatment of Jon, but Ned's the one who really did not do right by him.

that's an interesting view. I think you're right. though , good or bad, I think Ned did want to get Jon out of sight. I think it made kinda sense in his head.

[Springwatch]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sansa possesses kindness and empathy, yet tells lies and takes bribes.

I'm curious, what was the bribe? Her wedding dress? Winterfell?