Aussies and NZers: Jabs, Jobs and (grounded) Jets

[Free Northman Reborn]

What’s with the Australasian paranoia? Why do they view case numbers with so much more alarm than any other Western nations, including the Scandinavian countries?

Are they that much more risk averse as a society? I mean, Dan Andrews and Mark McGowan are just obsessive when it comes to this issue. Much like Ardern.

What makes them so different from a societal perspective?

[Prue]

I presume it's the fact that they are islands (even Australia in this respect) that saw a realistic option to totally isolate themselves. All the people in states with borders to other countries know that there's no chance whatsoever to achieve that, so you learn to live with the risk. And with a long time in isolation, a certain paranoia is inevitable... Maybe comparable to people who had the luxury to switch to home office last year and never return to the real world. E.g. a friend of mine still won't go shopping in person anywhere or eat in a restaurant indoors, despite a vaccination and only meeting vaccinated people....  

[The Marquis de Leech]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

What’s with the Australasian paranoia? Why do they view case numbers with so much more alarm than any other Western nations, including the Scandinavian countries?

Are they that much more risk averse as a society? I mean, Dan Andrews and Mark McGowan are just obsessive when it comes to this issue. Much like Ardern.

What makes them so different from a societal perspective?

Well, in NZ's case, we have only 150 ICU beds in the entire country. If the Plague were to break out of its current subset, it would destroy the health system. And we quite like having a health system.

[The Anti-Targ]

It's so outrageous that governments might want to limit disease and death among the people?

[Stubby]

Vale Bert Newton. :(

[Impmk2]

11 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

It's so outrageous that governments might want to limit disease and death among the people?

Honestly think the US is the outlier here, not Aus or NZ.

Much of the rest of the world spent 2020 / early 2021 in lockdowns with travel restrictions to limit spread and reduce deaths until vaccination rates hit a pretty high level. We're probably 6 months behind the curve due to a) being islands which could effectively elimintate the virus for 18+ months, b) the delayed vaccine rollout, and c) seasonality effects and being in the southern hemisphere.

The US seems to have basically thrown up it's hands towards the end of last year and said, oh well, people will die. Lack of collective will to get on top of this thing, as a result of the extreme political polarisation over there. But on an individual level my friends in the US seem no less (and in some cases far more) terrified than most of the people I know here. Hell, just read the covid thread.

So anyway, now the US rightwing has a hard-on, conveniently forgetting western Europe spent much of last winter and spring in lockdown while we were completely free. Somewhat ironic to be pointing this out just now, when lockdowns are lifting and travel is opening up here, and the introduction of restrictions is being talked about in Europe.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Impmk2 said:

The US seems to have basically thrown up it's hands towards the end of last year

O no, the US, via the shoggoths in power at the start of 2020, made a deliberate decision to not do anything at all, and wht was done, was forced upon them by world opinion.  But ever since they have, in every rethug held city and state and county done everything to NOT mitigate the disease in any kind of way, but deliberately to do everything that would spread it.  You have no idea what it is like to live in a country that made of covid-19 a political bioweapon.

[Prue]

18 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

It's so outrageous that governments might want to limit disease and death among the people?

No, it's absolutely laudable that they did so much in NZ/AUS etc. to protect their citizens. Unlike the red states in the US who actively endanger people and even force them NOT to wear masks and protect themselves. Utterly appalling.

But once all the people who are able to have a vaccination got one, at one point you need to return to a path to somewhat-normalcy, e.g. by switching to looking at whether your hospitals are in danger of getting overwhelmed. 

And you need to accept that it's not possible to keep all people absolutely safe forever, however much you would wish that were possible. 

E.g. in Germany I don't think we'll return to a lockdown unless there's a new variant that causes high death rates even among the vaccinated, and hospitals are in danger of being overwhelmed. Once you have given everybody who is eligible a chance to get a vaccination, there's the emerging attitude that the hardcore anti-vaxxers who are left over have decided to endanger themselves and bear the risk. The sad thing is that they also endanger people who couldn't get a vaccination for health/age reasons or who are in danger despite a vaccination, so there absolutely still need to be precautions (masks, tests, probably even an obligation to get a vaccination). Yesterday, there was a report about a nursing home where 8 vaccinated old people died from COVID, presumably because half of the nurses decided not to get vaccinated...

 

 

[Impmk2]

36 minutes ago, Prue said:

No, it's absolutely laudable that they did so much in NZ/AUS etc. to protect their citizens. Unlike the red states in the US who actively endanger people and even force them NOT to wear masks and protect themselves. Utterly appalling.

But once all the people who are able to have a vaccination got one, at one point you need to return to a path to somewhat-normalcy, e.g. by switching to looking at whether your hospitals are in danger of getting overwhelmed. 

And you need to accept that it's not possible to keep all people absolutely safe forever, however much you would wish that were possible.

You're possibly unaware that both Australia and NZ only really got enough vaccine supply to cover their populations inside the last month. We were very much behind most of the rest of the world in the rollout. Now both have it both countries are in the middle of a phased reopening.

[The Anti-Targ]

4 hours ago, Prue said:

No, it's absolutely laudable that they did so much in NZ/AUS etc. to protect their citizens. Unlike the red states in the US who actively endanger people and even force them NOT to wear masks and protect themselves. Utterly appalling.

But once all the people who are able to have a vaccination got one, at one point you need to return to a path to somewhat-normalcy, e.g. by switching to looking at whether your hospitals are in danger of getting overwhelmed. 

And you need to accept that it's not possible to keep all people absolutely safe forever, however much you would wish that were possible. 

E.g. in Germany I don't think we'll return to a lockdown unless there's a new variant that causes high death rates even among the vaccinated, and hospitals are in danger of being overwhelmed. Once you have given everybody who is eligible a chance to get a vaccination, there's the emerging attitude that the hardcore anti-vaxxers who are left over have decided to endanger themselves and bear the risk. The sad thing is that they also endanger people who couldn't get a vaccination for health/age reasons or who are in danger despite a vaccination, so there absolutely still need to be precautions (masks, tests, probably even an obligation to get a vaccination). Yesterday, there was a report about a nursing home where 8 vaccinated old people died from COVID, presumably because half of the nurses decided not to get vaccinated...

 

 

We'll be opening up the same way we've been managing the pandemic the whole time, with caution. Not enough cautions for some, too much caution for others, which means probably all right on balance. 

[Jeor]

In other news, the ICAC hearings with Gladys starring are not a particularly good look for her. For a seasoned politician who should know that ICAC have got their hands on her phone calls etc, she has really not held up well under questioning. Asked if she considered Maguire to be family, she said emphatically no, she didn't consider him family...and then is shown a text from her to him, which said "You are my family". Then also some unedifying phone tap conversations where she talks about the funding she got him, firing a public servant (which she didn't do), and how Perrottet does whatever she tells him to.

So it does sound like her resignation was warranted. As much as I like her for other things she may have done, ICAC is likely to make an adverse finding against her and politicians can't really recover from those. On a personal level, though, I kind of have to remind myself that if my phone conversations and emails were all tracked it would be pretty easy to dig up dirt on me...

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Jeor said:

Asked if she considered Maguire to be family, she said emphatically no, she didn't consider him family...and then is shown a text from her to him, which said "You are my family". 

I read that not as lying to ICAC but lying to Maguire 

On 10/30/2021 at 11:11 AM, Wall Flower said:

It's a while since I bought supermarket bread but I know that Vogel's, Country Split and Burgen are available in Australia. Tip Top would have been the main brand available when I was a kid - even earlier than the 80's. Buttercup was the other brand I remember.

I guess we can all agree that American bread must be pretty crook if a basic white Tip Top slice tastes like heaven. Though as the thread says, a Tip Top slice is perfectly ok wrapped around a  barbecued sausage with sauce. Do you have democracy sausage sizzles in NZ when you vote?

It really is that bad. Supermarket bread isnt actually ever "fresh" by our standards, its double bagged with the inner bag being a fully sealed plastic lining shrinkwrap style, and even the day you buy it its still...kinda hard. It also has too much sugar in it that barely works with butter, and vegemite does not work on it at all. Peanut butter and jam works because its enough moisture to make the bread edible, I actually wound up eating it there and haven't even considered it once since I came home.

Eventually I realised I could just put things on tortillas instead of their bread and that worked much better lol, so I guess I stopped considering it even before I came home.

[Jeor]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I read that not as lying to ICAC but lying to Maguire 

Well yes, that would be the correct way to read it! Goodness knows how she found herself going out with a crook like him. It sounds like he pestered her a lot and was, as Barilaro put it, "a real pain in the arse".

[karaddin]

Just now, Jeor said:

Well yes, that would be the correct way to read it! Goodness knows how she found herself going out with a crook like him. It sounds like he pestered her a lot and was, as Barilaro put it, "a real pain in the arse".

And she didn't even seem to like him lol. AND he was an ingrateful shit even when she did do things for him. It makes no sense, but pieces of shit like that seem good at finding people that will tolerate their shit.

[The Anti-Targ]

Aye?

Australia proposes voter ID law to crack down on alleged election fraud – Global Government Forum

Quote

Australia proposes voter ID law to crack down on alleged election fraud

Legislation proposing that Australian voters show identification on polling day has been criticised over fears that it could disenfranchise young and Indigenous Australians.

The bill – which has progressed through the Coalition government’s ‘party room’ and was presented to parliament on 28 October – aims to clamp down on alleged voter fraud. If passed, voters would be required to show ID at polling stations rather than have their name and address checked against a list on arrival.

Guardian Australia reports that acceptable forms of identification would include photo ID – such as passports, drivers licences, proof of age cards, and student cards – as well as government-issued documents including Medicare and pensioners cards, and recent documents from banks and utility companies.

But voting is compulsory in Aussie right? So how can someone be required to vote and also be denied the ability to vote? How much voter fraud has been proven in Australian elections? About the same amount as most other places I suppose, i.e. negligible amounts.

We have a form of voter ID, but it is an ID that is specifically for each election, for one use only, and it is mailed out to every registered voter by the electoral commission before every election. That seems like a reasonable way to limit the potential for voter fraud at the same time as making sure everyone who wants to vote gets to vote.

[Paxter]

48 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Aye?

Australia proposes voter ID law to crack down on alleged election fraud – Global Government Forum

But voting is compulsory in Aussie right? So how can someone be required to vote and also be denied the ability to vote? How much voter fraud has been proven in Australian elections? About the same amount as most other places I suppose, i.e. negligible amounts.

We have a form of voter ID, but it is an ID that is specifically for each election, for one use only, and it is mailed out to every registered voter by the electoral commission before every election. That seems like a reasonable way to limit the potential for voter fraud at the same time as making sure everyone who wants to vote gets to vote.

I’m sure there was some very tiny amount of fraud out there but this one is a storm in a teacup really.
 

In the electoral space, the big stitch-up of late was the major parties agreeing to legislation which would force parties to seek permission to use any words in their name that are already used by existing parties. Talk about self serving!

[Wall Flower]

3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Aye?

Australia proposes voter ID law to crack down on alleged election fraud – Global Government Forum

But voting is compulsory in Aussie right? So how can someone be required to vote and also be denied the ability to vote? How much voter fraud has been proven in Australian elections? About the same amount as most other places I suppose, i.e. negligible amounts.

We have a form of voter ID, but it is an ID that is specifically for each election, for one use only, and it is mailed out to every registered voter by the electoral commission before every election. That seems like a reasonable way to limit the potential for voter fraud at the same time as making sure everyone who wants to vote gets to vote.

Apparently, there were only 19 cases of possible fraud identified in the last election and I don't think there were any convictions - most cases were just people with mental impairment or dementia who voted twice unintentionally. This is basically just the Coalition following the Republican play book and maybe hoping to gain some advantage in remote areas with a lot of indigenous voters who may not have the requisite id documents. It was also something that Pauline Hanson pushed for as part of her agreement to pass government legislation in the Senate (although the government is reluctant to give her the credit she is trying to claim for herself).

In simpler terms, it's bullshit.

[Squab]

17 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Apparently, there were only 19 cases of possible fraud identified in the last election

Where did you find this info as the federal election before that had more than 18000 people who were recorded as voting twice or more?

[karaddin]

4 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Aye?

Australia proposes voter ID law to crack down on alleged election fraud – Global Government Forum

But voting is compulsory in Aussie right? So how can someone be required to vote and also be denied the ability to vote?

That's exactly the point. They'll import voting ID requirements from the US culture war, and then point out how it makes no sense to prevent someone from voting and then fine them for it, compulsory voting has got to go! That's what this is actually about. The far right have been getting more convinced that they need to get rid of it over the last 10 years.

[The Anti-Targ]

I wonder how some people can claim they believe in democracy when most of what they do when it comes to elections is to try to prevent people from voting, by fair means or foul. Though surely Australia is an example to the right that it need not fear the great unwashed voting, since Australia has been electing right wing governments on a regular basis. Though I suppose if you engage in active voter suppression there is the idea that the country will elect right wing govts more regularly, or maybe even permanently.