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Aussies and NZers: Jabs, Jobs and (grounded) Jets


Paxter
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You can challenge a decision made by a minister under discretionary powers in court, but usually where the law grants a minister discretionary power courts tend to not rule against the minister, because then it is the court trying to establish the limits of the discretionary powers and really they are limited to  making sure the discretion met the letter of the law. It appears this power has conditions placed on it, as mentioned above "'might be' a risk to the health, safety or good order of the Australian community". As long as the order says "he may be a risk to [enter one or more of the conditions], on the grounds that he [enter a reason that connects to the stated conditions]" Then the courts will be loath to say that the reason given isn't good enough. They could only find that the reason given has no relation to the condition stated, but that doesn;t seem to be the case.

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Yeah I really can't see him winning this appeal. The powers are utterly fucked, and people getting outraged about that is what I was hoping might be a silver lining to this, but few people actually seem to give a shit.

I don't really care about this particular case, I care about what we do to everyone that can't afford fancy lawyers and get massive publicity because if we're willing to be this petty to him you know it gets a lot worse. And there's a bunch of casual cruelty in how this is being done purely to flex having power over a guy like him.

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12 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yeah I really can't see him winning this appeal. The powers are utterly fucked, and people getting outraged about that is what I was hoping might be a silver lining to this, but few people actually seem to give a shit.

I don't really care about this particular case, I care about what we do to everyone that can't afford fancy lawyers and get massive publicity because if we're willing to be this petty to him you know it gets a lot worse. And there's a bunch of casual cruelty in how this is being done purely to flex having power over a guy like him.

Yeah I've been invited to a comp in Aus in April and now I'm thinking it may not be worth the hassle hah!

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9 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Yeah I've been invited to a comp in Aus in April and now I'm thinking it may not be worth the hassle hah!

You'd probably be fine, but I'm not sure I'd want to deal with any countries immigration at the moment and especially not ours. Let us know if you do come though!

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1 minute ago, karaddin said:

You'd probably be fine, but I'm not sure I'd want to deal with any countries immigration at the moment and especially not ours. Let us know if you do come though!

Will do! I'm currently trying to work out the Visa process! Never applied for one before.

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10 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Yeah I've been invited to a comp in Aus in April and now I'm thinking it may not be worth the hassle hah!

unless I am mistaken the main problem with Novak is he did not receive the correct visa advise from Australia and also filled in form wrong.   The rest has snowballed from there.

 

I think I read that even unvaxed he could have gained entry if he had gone into a quarrentine hotel.

 

I think if you are careful and check the rules (this is not a comment on if the rules are what they should be) before you travel, you should be ok.

 

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7 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

unless I am mistaken the main problem with Novak is he did not receive the correct visa advise from Australia and also filled in form wrong.   The rest has snowballed from there.

 

I think I read that even unvaxed he could have gained entry if he had gone into a quarrentine hotel.

 

I think if you are careful and check the rules (this is not a comment on if the rules are what they should be) before you travel, you should be ok.

 

Yeah it looks like as long as you're vaccinated shouldn't really have any issues (providing you apply for the correct visa).

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In Australia covid news - Adrian Esterman (epidemiologist) has been tracking the R numbers across all the states on his twitter.  He's saying it looks like we're either at or very close to the peak across almost every state (possible exception Qld) which is good news if the numbers hold. NSW data is still messy due to recent incorporation of RATs and uncertainty in numbers, but (in my completely amateur opinion) if you look at the % positive PCR (or exclude all non-PCR data) seems quite likely they've peaked too.

Hospitalisations and deaths still a ways off peaking though. All baked in now unfortunately. And of course as school goes back and we relax there's potential for a further spikes in cases.

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13 hours ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

unless I am mistaken the main problem with Novak is he did not receive the correct visa advise from Australia and also filled in form wrong.   The rest has snowballed from there.

 

I think I read that even unvaxed he could have gained entry if he had gone into a quarrentine hotel.

 

I think if you are careful and check the rules (this is not a comment on if the rules are what they should be) before you travel, you should be ok.

 

Quarantine hotel wouldn’t have worked unless he left Serbia a lot earlier (two weeks is still the requirement I think).

As for international travel, it’s not really that bad anymore, with a couple of exceptions in Asia, notably China and Japan. You won’t have a problem @lessthanluke

Edited by Paxter
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Re: the whole Djokovic saga, it's obviously been a very bad look for Australia internationally, but the fact that it's Djokovic being deported softens the hit. To have filled out a false declaration about your previous travel, not isolated when you knew you were positive and around kids and taken a journalist interview and photoshoot, these are things that stop him from being a martyr for the cause.

Prior to this there has always been a lot of criticism of the ministerial discretionary powers. Given that the discretionary powers are legislated, I can't believe that a judge would overturn a decision of the minister exercising those powers. They probably can't unless there has been some procedural/technical error. 

EDIT: I would have actually thought any Immigration minister would want those discretionary powers to be removed. Can you imagine how much lobbying they must attract every day? 

Edited by Jeor
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1 hour ago, Jeor said:

Re: the whole Djokovic saga, it's obviously been a very bad look for Australia internationally, but the fact that it's Djokovic being deported softens the hit. To have filled out a false declaration about your previous travel, not isolated when you knew you were positive and around kids and taken a journalist interview and photoshoot, these are things that stop him from being a martyr for the cause.

Prior to this there has always been a lot of criticism of the ministerial discretionary powers. Given that the discretionary powers are legislated, I can't believe that a judge would overturn a decision of the minister exercising those powers. They probably can't unless there has been some procedural/technical error. 

EDIT: I would have actually thought any Immigration minister would want those discretionary powers to be removed. Can you imagine how much lobbying they must attract every day? 

Yeah there are two main ways you can have a decision made under an Act overturned: 1) breach of procedural fairness/natural justice; 2) decision made outside power (ultra vires). The broader the discretion conferred by the Act, the harder it is to get a decision quashed under limb 2). 

And on the contrary, in my experience Staffers have no problem getting begged and lobbied for favours, particularly in exchange for other favours. 

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9 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So I hear COVID parties are a thing in Australia. True or vicious slander?

There's been reports of at least some people trying to intentionally catch covid. Enough that various officials have made statements on how fucking stupid that is. Doubt it's a particularly widespread thing, but crazy stuff like this tends to get amplified in the media.

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59 minutes ago, Impmk2 said:

There's been reports of at least some people trying to intentionally catch covid. Enough that various officials have made statements on how fucking stupid that is. Doubt it's a particularly widespread thing, but crazy stuff like this tends to get amplified in the media.

They should try the Austrian approach. Someone who is already positive does a test for you and afterwards you count as recovered. Because the positive person needs to violate quarantine to do that it is a win-win situation for the anti-measure crowd. They sometimes catch people because they are stupid enough to do it at a test stations where people know them though.

Edited by Luzifer's right hand
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2 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

They should try the Austrian approach. Someone who is already positive does a test for you and afterwards you count as recovered. Because the positive person needs to violate quarantine to do that it is a win-win situation for the anti-measure crowd. They sometimes catch people because they are stupid enough to do it at a test stations where people know them though.

From reports its both a mix of people chasing 'natural immunity' in lieu of vaccination and people who think being infected is inevitable and don't want infection potentially disrupting life in the medium/short term at an inconvenient time. There's some sort of misguided logic to it, but even if they don't suffer any long term damage it's still intentionally creating transmission lines which could kill vulnerable people which is incredibly selfish. 

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If you are young, healthy and vaccinated, the deliberately catching omicron is very low risk, and give yourself an immunity boost. But if you are going to be responsible about it you will isolate for at least 7 days after your deliberate exposure attempt so that you don't pass it on to others. I can't imagine the conversation with ones employer or school principal going terribly well though: "I went to a party to catch COVID, so I can't come to work / school for a week, sorry."

You also will need to get tested at least once to make sure you caught it, because there is always the chance you don't catch it despite your best efforts. Though if you get sick with the right symptoms you can probably assume you caught it.

I'm certainly not young and I'm not exactly the picture of health, so I won't be attending any COVID parties if they ever make their way here. Though we need to get omicron into the community first, which hasn't happened yet. We do have a border worker who tested positive for omicron and there are about 40 close community contacts identified, so it might have arrived already, just not official confirmed.

 

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On 1/15/2022 at 5:48 PM, Jeor said:

Prior to this there has always been a lot of criticism of the ministerial discretionary powers. Given that the discretionary powers are legislated, I can't believe that a judge would overturn a decision of the minister exercising those powers. They probably can't unless there has been some procedural/technical error. 

EDIT: I would have actually thought any Immigration minister would want those discretionary powers to be removed. Can you imagine how much lobbying they must attract every day? 

The traditional grounds for overturning such decisions would be Illegality, Irrationality, and Procedural Impropriety. It's the last one that is relevant here - essentially making sure the minister took into account all relevant factors. Also note that overturning the decision simply sends the matter back to the minister, to be decided again, properly this time. 

(I can't speak for Australia, but in New Zealand, it is very, very common for immigration cases to be subject to judicial review. Primarily because the stakes are so high for the individuals involved).

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12 hours ago, Impmk2 said:

Oh wow WA has an Omicron outbreak. They'll be lucky to control this.

The reaction back home is fairly muted. They are back to masks, but they only had a short break from those anyway. And supply chain issues were already a problem. 

Overall, they are ready for this. Borders are due to open soon and they are close to hitting the 90% double vacc for 12+. 

ETA: Actually I'm going to qualify the above to say that Perth Metro (where 80% of WA lives) is ready for this. Regional WA is a different kettle and outbreaks may have to be managed much more conservatively, as has happened in NT. 

Edited by Paxter
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