The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[Ran]

Saldaean women don't necessarily learn to use knives formally -- Faile said her footman taught her because it amused him more than anything. 

A female general does not necessarily mean a female warrior. Saldaean women were taught strategy and tactics and were supposed to be able to discuss them with their husbands.

The most succinct explanation of things is probably Elayne musing about her personal guard in Crossroads of Twilight: 

Quote

Women were uncommon in jobs that required using weapons, just the occasional merchants' guard or a rare woman who turned up in an army during time of war, and Elayne had never heard of a group of all-female soldiers before she created one.

I can't recall when we got the first example of a Westlands woman in WoT carrying a sword. A Hunter of the Horn mentioned in passing early on? Some merchants' guard? I have the very vaguest recollection that Rand might have killed a darkfriend woman who was a merchants' guard, but that's probably wrong.

[fionwe1987]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Saldaean women don't necessarily learn to use knives formally -- Faile said her footman taught her because it amused him more than anything. 

A female general does not necessarily mean a female warrior. Saldaean women were taught strategy and tactics and were supposed to be able to discuss them with their husbands.

The most succinct explanation of things is probably Elayne musing about her personal guard in Crossroads of Twilight: 

Good catch on the Faile statement. And this from Elayne. 

5 hours ago, Ran said:

I can't recall when we got the first example of a Westlands woman in WoT carrying a sword. A Hunter of the Horn mentioned in passing early on? Some merchants' guard? I have the very vaguest recollection that Rand might have killed a darkfriend woman who was a merchants' guard, but that's probably wrong.

This was in Dragon Reborn, I think. He feels guilty because she's a woman, and he isn't sure if this group was actually Darkfriends.

[Ran]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

This was in Dragon Reborn, I think. He feels guilty because she's a woman, and he isn't sure if this group was actually Darkfriends.

Ah, a merchant woman and her merchant guards. And yeah, he was pretty loopy in that particular moment.

[fionwe1987]

Elayne's guards are the kind of thing I'd advance in the show. The Queen of Andor should have all female guards from the beginning. It doesn't have to be an innovation of Elayne's. There's evidence for the Andoran royal family being linked to the Aiel anyway, and Tigraine literally went and became a Maiden of the Spear, so it isn't farfetched to show female military personnel in Andor right from the start.

[Ran]

Why should it be changed? I don't really get the argument on this point. It makes the differences with the Aiel and the Seanchan less distinct and takes away something that Elayne was supposed to do. And which she did in large part because it was specifically something that people would underestimate, which she felt would ultimately make her safer. If women soldiers are common, OTOH, then her reasoning doesn't make sense.

[fionwe1987]

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

Why should it be changed? I don't really get the argument on this point. It makes the differences with the Aiel and the Seanchan less distinct and takes away something that Elayne was supposed to do. And which she did in large part because it was specifically something that people would underestimate, which she felt would ultimately make her safer. If women soldiers are common, OTOH, then her reasoning doesn't make sense.

I don't see the show being able to go into nuance like this. If it can, then sure, I'd be glad if they made it a part of Elayne's arc that she sees the value in female soldiers and uses it to her advantage. But even in the books, this isn't explored as a big storyline or anything, and if it is going to be axed anyway, might as well do it in a way that makes the world stand out more from standard fantasy stories, no?

[Ran]

Does WoT not have enough things to distinguish itself from "standard fantasy stories" that Rafe Judkins should be invited  to just make up yet more stuff? 

[fionwe1987]

Depends on what they choose to focus on, and what they can bring to the show. There's literally no way all of it comes in, and I have no doubt they're going to change some things to front load some of the aspects of the series, because they're not going to get to slowly add more depth to the world a 14 book series could. 

Already, we've seen that they're advancing a lot of Tower politics to the first season. A wise move, especially given where it goes. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more Andoran politics in the second season than is in the books early on.

[Lord Varys]

My comments on the whole Warder thing weren't really that important. I don't really dislike this system so much as the fact that it is one of the traits of the show that reinforces that (powerful) women need men. The very fact that the Aes Sedai can have those companions, etc. isn't bad in and of itself.

Finished the first book and the last chapters weren't that bad. I was annoyed by the fact that Jordan had to use the 'jealous woman' plot device to explain the downfall of Malkier. It couldn't just be some evil Darkfriend, a jealous man, stupidity, or simply the greater power of the evil forces. But, no, it had to be a jealous woman.

The entire gender issue is painful to read, because Jordan really fails to properly portray a world where the things happened that happened there. Men destroyed the world, yet folks do not really demonize men, men do not view themselves as potential monsters, nor are they viewed as such by the women. Instead, folks associate the Aes Sedai with the destruction of the world, not men/male Aes Sedai. The fact that the only wielders of the One Power since the Breaking are women should have greatly affected the social order of the world. Men should have become the weaker/lesser sex. Instead we just get a bunch of women who act tough but in secret crave strong men at their sides. What for, exactly? And vice versa - why on earth should men in such a world not proudly and gladly submit to powerful Aes Sedai women if they choose them as mates, husbands, or companions? Men no longer have the power to be as powerful as the Aes Sedai, meaning there would be literally no substance for their demand that they be viewed as equals to such powerful women. If they can wield saidin, they are monsters in the making, and men who cannot touch the One Power never can have even remotely the same power as an Aes Sedai.

Nobody in a society such as this would teach his or her male children the idea that men and women are equal or men are entitled to refuse to marry an Aes Sedai or Wisdom woman because they do not have the same power. Instead, marrying such a powerful woman would be as great an honor as Cinderella marry Prince Charming.

But the women are described as if they are basically living in our world, and the men are described as if they were men living in our world.

Thus the entire episode of Nynaeve and Lan discussing marriage was really painful to get through. Not to mention that it is way too early in the series for this kind of thing starting to form. Unless I'm mistaken, we'll have to deal with that romance for the entire series.

Basically, the final chapters feel and read like a weird diversion. The entire book they wanted to go to Tar Valon and then they suddenly decide to take the magical shortcuts to the Eye of the World - a place that's never actually explained within the novel to the reader - and it is kind of weird that even the gang from Emmond's Field actually know what and where the place is. You kind of get what the place was when they are there and we are told that it contained a lot of clean saidin, etc.

There wasn't really a need for such a great confrontation in the first novel, not to mention that Rand's apparent victory over the Dark One really reads as if Jordan wanted to give the book and ending of sorts, one that would make it a somewhat satisfying read even if there were no sequels. The fact that they found the Horn of Valere then and there is also strangely anticlimactic - it could have been a good quest to look for that thing rather than having it already trying to get it to some other place.

Unless I'm misremembering, it would have been much better if they had first gone to Tar Valon only to start different quests there.

Also, it is pretty much spilled out at the end that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. But unless I'm misremembering we are going to get two more such 'revelations' in the second and the third book until really everybody and their grandmother understand that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. And he has to prove that with the Aiel again, no? I remember this as both pointless and kind of boring. Just as I remember the recurring formula for the first novels goes something along those lines: The gang is together. They split up for some reason. They get together at the end for some finale where Rand proves again that he is the Dragon Reborn.

Does this continue in the later books as well, or does the formula change?

[Lord Varys]

A small detail highlighting incompetence:

When the gang returns to Fal Dara after the grand finale, Moiraine actually hands the banner of the Dragon to some servant, giving the command to remove it to her place without opening it. That is just silly. I don't know if anyone takes a peek, but if I want to hide something the best way to do that is not to give anyone the opportunity to actually realize I'm hiding something and/or to reduce the chances of others to actually take a look at it.

[felice]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Men destroyed the world, yet folks do not really demonize men, men do not view themselves as potential monsters, nor are they viewed as such by the women. Instead, folks associate the Aes Sedai with the destruction of the world, not men/male Aes Sedai.

Male Aes Sedai destroyed the world; female Aes Sedai have the power to do the same, men who can't channel don't. And almost everyone deals with non-channeler men all the time in their day-to-day life, while encounters with Aes Sedai are rare. It makes perfect sense that the general population would be more concerned about the latter.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead we just get a bunch of women who act tough but in secret crave strong men at their sides. What for, exactly?

Assuming we're talking about heterosexual women here, are they supposed to crave weak and ineffectual men at their sides instead?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And vice versa - why on earth should men in such a world not proudly and gladly submit to powerful Aes Sedai women if they choose them as mates, husbands, or companions? Men no longer have the power to be as powerful as the Aes Sedai, meaning there would be literally no substance for their demand that they be viewed as equals to such powerful women.

Are you saying that in a world without magic where men are physically stronger, women should proudly and gladly submit to any powerful man who chooses them, and demands to be viewed as equals are without substance?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody in a society such as this would teach his or her male children the idea that men and women are equal or men are entitled to refuse to marry an Aes Sedai or Wisdom woman because they do not have the same power. Instead, marrying such a powerful woman would be as great an honor as Cinderella marry Prince Charming.

Or Buttercup marrying Prince Humperdinck? Or Sansa Stark marrying Ramsay Bolton?

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, felice said:

Male Aes Sedai destroyed the world; female Aes Sedai have the power to do the same, men who can't channel don't. And almost everyone deals with non-channeler men all the time in their day-to-day life, while encounters with Aes Sedai are rare. It makes perfect sense that the general population would be more concerned about the latter.

Male Aes Sedai destroyed the world, female Aes Sedai saved what was left of the world, helped rebuild the world after the Breaking and the subsequent catastrophes.

I'm not saying that people should or would equate the average woman with an Aes Sedai ... but every girl born is a potential Aes Sedai just every boy born is a potential madman rotting alive. That is a simple fact of reality in this world, and something the people in this world have allegedly dealt with for 3,000 years. It would be ingrained in their culture and their collective memory. Society would be (re-)shaped around that fact.

If there was gender equality back in the Age of Legends - which apparently is the case - then this would not continue into the later ages. The role of women in the society would be increased while men would be pushed in the background.

The Aes Sedai being all female and the most powerful organization in the continent would result in them being viewed as the epitome of womanhood. The gifted woman would be a woman more powerful than any other being on the planet, far beyond what monarchs and lords could hope to accomplish.

Like certain facts of reality allowed patriarchy to develop and control women, the factual realities of the post-Breaking world would also shape cultural reality in Jordan's world ... but it apparently didn't. At least not to the degree one would expect it to happen.

The very idea that women in this world would need men to protect them from anything is silly. They are the ones who bring forth the sorceresses. They do not need men for anything, and they, technically, had 3,000 years to ensure that women rule the world, not men. And that's what would have happened. Men would have viewed themselves as potential dangers, would have refused to take leadership positions because at any time one of them could be revealed to be a madman using saidin. They would internalize either outright self-hatred or at least skepticism about themselves and their abilities - like women were/are taught in the real world.

Arthur Hawkwing would have made much more sense as a female ruler, perhaps a woman who could use the One Power but refused to join the Aes Sedai or broke with the order, explaining why things ended the way they did.

2 minutes ago, felice said:

Assuming we're talking about heterosexual women here, are they supposed to crave weak and ineffectual men at their sides instead?

That isn't really the issue. Jordan claims that Wisdoms and Aes Sedai are rarely married because men cannot really accept or get along with a woman much more powerful than they are. That makes little sense in a world effectively run by women who much more powerful than any man. In such a world, men wouldn't really develop the notion that they have a right to fret about being outshone by a woman. Nobody would take the husband of an Aes Sedai seriously, anyway. At least not compared to her.

2 minutes ago, felice said:

Are you saying that in a world without magic where men are physically stronger, women should proudly and gladly submit to any powerful man who chooses them, and demands to be viewed as equals are without substance?

Wasn't that basically what marriage was for thousands of years? In a world where magical power gives you status even within the magical order itself, it is kind of odd that the most powerful Aes Sedai is not also the most desirable wife ... because like the Aes Sedai teach each other to submit to the top dog among them, they would have long ago taught the society they live in that men also submit to them.

Prestige as a potential spouse does not only come from physical strength, but if physical strength is an important element of prestige - as magical power is in this world - then, of course, spouses who very strong would be very desirable.

I mean, it is really kind of silly that Rand's and Egwene's romantic game is played in the language of 'You would like to be my Warder, wouldn't you?' - as if an Aes Sedai truly would need protection. As if in this world women would really *need* men to protect them.

Jordan tries to give us strong women, but does so in terms that doesn't make much sense in the context of this world. Nynaeve and the women of the Two Rivers should openly rule the place. Then it would make sense that she presumes to go out there and demand that the boys come back. But since they do not rule openly but rather behind the scenes and through their men, it doesn't really make sense that they would take charge openly the way they do ... or try to do.

[David Selig]

Jordan's idea is that the impact of the female monopoly on magic is the main  thing that makes most Randland societies more gender equal than the historical analogues. That's the counter to the male advantages in strength which led to patriarchy in our world. 

I think this is more plausible than the whole society being female dominated because a tiny percentage of women can do magic. Channellers are strong, but they aren't invincible and the vast majority of them are way weaker than the main characters.

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, David Selig said:

Jordan's idea is that the impact of the female monopoly on magic is the main  thing that makes most Randland societies more gender equal than the historical analogues. That's the counter to the male advantages in strength which led to patriarchy in our world. 

I'm not sure that's the case - or rather: if that's the intention then it is not actually shown in the worldbuilding material. The queens of Andor, for instance, are a rather late development based on a succession of historical accidents (no male heirs). And from what I know so far the Andorian situation is rather unique, isn't it?

The kind of 'hidden matriarchy' we have in the Two Rivers is something that has pretty much nothing to do with the metaphysical setting. It is women exerting power through their men, not in their own right and openly for all the world to see.

Quote

I think this is more plausible than the whole society being female dominated because a tiny percentage of women can do magic. Channellers are strong, but they aren't invincible and the vast majority of them are way weaker than the main characters.

I didn't say every country should have had a matriarch ruler ... rather that the dynamics between the sexes should have been changed on a fundamental level in the wake of the Breaking and the poisoning of saidin.

Part of the reason why, in a traditional (marriage) setting, even the poorest man can act as the master of the family and the big bad patriarch is that society as a whole helps him to project that image. The world is run by other men, his peers (in that sense).

Vice versa, in the post-Breaking world every woman would be encouraged and uplifted by the simple fact that a fraction of her peers were the only Aes Sedai left - the most powerful people in the world. But there is nothing about that there. Women mostly exert power behind the scenes, both the Aes Sedai themselves as well as 'normal women'.

Instead, we basically get traditional gender roles and stereotypes.

That said - I don't doubt or criticize that there aren't more women in WoT than there are in Tolkien's works, say. There is certainly a big improvement in the representation department. But I don't think there is much (or any) substantial improvement.

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead, we basically get traditional gender roles and stereotypes.

This is one of my gripes with this theme of the story. Jordan had a very exciting idea for a premise and did very little with it. The differences seem superficial and are not really explored. Yes, most people are not going to be channelers, so day to day the balance might not shift much from what we are used to - like in the two rivers. However, I'd have expected some larger societal effects.

For instance, men manifest their ability much later than women, so perhaps we see that universally, older men are desirable for young women. Like men are prohibited from marrying until a certain age. (I mean we've got the silver fox Thom with all the young ladies, but that's just him). We see women thinking of men almost like children, and that would fit with a society that doesn't see them as responsible, dependable men until a much later age. It's almost there in the books, but I don't think it was intentional on Jordan's part, just accidental. And if it was intentional, he missed an opportunity to really explore that and draw our attention to it.

 Inheritance seems to be roughly egalitarian (we really only see it at the level of royalty), but it might be interesting to see places where the inheritance was matrilineal to reflect the uncertainty about males. Have some woman talk about thinking she would inherit her mother's farm before being taken the the White Tower. As we've talked about before, the gender roles are fairly traditional, and I can see why that would be in places like Emond's Field, but in Caemlyn we have a queen, an Aes Sedai advisor and then the other positions seem to be filled by men. I'd expect to see that women are seen as capable advisors and experts in their field as often as men are and that there would be a more equal balance. While it's true that we don't see much of the power structure, it could have been made clear that her high-level advisors were equally divided by sex. 

Small things like this really add depth to the worldbuilding, but the way Jordan does it often seems skin deep and thus not fully realized. In my opinion, anyway. This world has Queens, thus men and women are equal - done. (an exaggeration, but I think you get where I am coming from)

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

This is one of my gripes with this theme of the story. Jordan had a very exciting idea for a premise and did very little with it. The differences seem superficial and are not really explored. Yes, most people are not going to be channelers, so day to day the balance might not shift much from what we are used to - like in the two rivers. However, I'd have expected some larger societal effects.

The impression I get is that the societal framework during the Age of Legends would have been pretty much gender equality - to a greater degree, one imagines, than in our world at this point - so the Two Rivers situation would actually be a decline from that height, not an improvement.

And in light of the fact that the madness of the Dragon, the Breaking, etc. it doesn't really make much sense that men as a whole would be able to keep the prominent position in the society they clearly still have during the series.

I mean, we get the Children of the Light perpetuating the conspiracy theory that the Aes Sedai are Darkfriends ... but nobody ever spread the non-conspiracy theory that men are, potentially, the worst enemies of all mankind? The idea that society would have just shrugged and rationally assessed the low percentage of male channelers rather than, you know, act like Covid deniers or anti-vaxxers is just not very convincing.

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

For instance, men manifest their ability much later than women, so perhaps we see that universally, older men are desirable for young women. Like men are prohibited from marrying until a certain age. (I mean we've got the silver fox Thom with all the young ladies, but that's just him). We see women thinking of men almost like children, and that would fit with a society that doesn't see them as responsible, dependable men until a much later age. It's almost there in the books, but I don't think it was intentional on Jordan's part, just accidental. And if it was intentional, he missed an opportunity to really explore that and draw our attention to it.

It appears to me that this was just an isolated line there - after all, even within the framework of the story I've read so far the boys are not exactly viewed as children by Nynaeve and Egwene - nor do they view themselves as immature. Which they would if society taught them this was the case.

Having read through the Worldbook a little bit more it quite striking that in nearly every culture women were not really able to capitalize on their metaphysical advantage - in Shara the female channelers have to rule from behind the scenes if they rule at all, in Seanchan they were subdued into servitude in what basically qualifies as a BDSM mind-control fantasy on Jordan's part. The obvious scenario of a powerful Aes Sedai setting up a powerful dynasty of channelers never properly realized - the Amyrlin Seat would realistically also have taken over vast swathes of land during various periods of history, whenever Tar Valon was ruled by a woman who craved real and direct power over people. And something as simple as the desire of the Aes Sedai for safety would necessitate them ruling at least their neighbors directly. Else they would constantly have to fear that they might be attacked from all sides, especially after the Whitecloaks became a thing.

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 Inheritance seems to be roughly egalitarian (we really only see it at the level of royalty), but it might be interesting to see places where the inheritance was matrilineal to reflect the uncertainty about males. Have some woman talk about thinking she would inherit her mother's farm before being taken the the White Tower. As we've talked about before, the gender roles are fairly traditional, and I can see why that would be in places like Emond's Field, but in Caemlyn we have a queen, an Aes Sedai advisor and then the other positions seem to be filled by men. I'd expect to see that women are seen as capable advisors and experts in their field as often as men are and that there would be a more equal balance. While it's true that we don't see much of the power structure, it could have been made clear that her high-level advisors were equally divided by sex. 

In Andor, the situation is basically just traditional complementary gender setting. Men and women have to work together, and the women in charge are in (desperate) need of strong men at their side ... while the reverse isn't true. Men do like and desire women, of course, but they do not really need them to excel at what they do.

The fact that there are multiple offices, etc. at the court of Caemlyn isn't the problem, the fact that crucial positions have to be filled by men is.

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Small things like this really add depth to the worldbuilding, but the way Jordan does it often seems skin deep and thus not fully realized. In my opinion, anyway. This world has Queens, thus men and women are equal - done. (an exaggeration, but I think you get where I am coming from)

As I said, Andor having queens is just an accident of history. No indication this had anything to do with the general history of the world since the Breaking.

[Werthead]

Andor has the closest alliance of any kingdom with Tar Valon, so whilst the initial reason it only had Queens was a quirk of history, that influence I think made the idea stick. The assumption is that Tar Valon sent Queen Ishara advisors almost immediately after she helped raise the siege and their presence may have helped Ishara stabilise Andor more quickly than other nations.  

It should be noted that the two nations that most oppose Tar Valon, Tear and Amadicia, are also the two that given women least positions of power and authority, having none in Amadicia and only a moderate amount in Tear.

There is one other outright matriarchy, though, with the city of Far Madding, and Mayene has only had female rulers for a while, although I think that was only a weird quirk of history as well (and had male rulers earlier on).

Spoiler

The Seanchan Empire, the most powerful nation-state on the planet, is also a matriarchy, only having had female rulers since its second or third ruler over a thousand years ago, despite being founded by a man. Intriguingly, this is despite the former apparent corrupt rule of the continent by power-hungry female channellers.

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Andor has the closest alliance of any kingdom with Tar Valon, so whilst the initial reason it only had Queens was a quirk of history, that influence I think made the idea stick. The assumption is that Tar Valon sent Queen Ishara advisors almost immediately after she helped raise the siege and their presence may have helped Ishara stabilise Andor more quickly than other nations.  

Yes, I guessed that this might have had something to do with that. But that's about 2,000 years after the Breaking, meaning it had literally nothing to do with the earlier stuff or whatever machinations the Aes Sedai had going on in the last two millennia. And the big societal change would have come back then, presumably, not with Hawkwing's death.

And thinking about that - the Worldbook gives a nice explanation how the the various Ajah developed ... but are we truly to believe that this system would have prevailed if the training of new Aes Sedai is the way it is portrayed in the books? Meaning that novices and Accepted just learn stuff and then kind of arbitrarily decide which Ajah they are going to join when they take their final vows. That way this system couldn't have been perpetuated. It would only make sense if the White Tower had had some kind of Hogwarts house system, meaning the novices and Accepted would have to join an Ajah when they first came to Tar Valon with the system ensuring that every Ajah would always get at least some new members.

If it were left all to the interests and preferences of the new Aes Sedai in question, then quite a few Ajah should have been dissolved a long time ago.

Also, I see no reason why the reformed Aes Sedai as an order would keep the whole Ajah system in place if being part of an Ajah wasn't part of the original training. Any girl/woman coming to the newly built White Tower would view this place as their home ... and the Aes Sedai as such their family, not an Ajah they would only have to choose when their training was complete.

Or are we to believe that adult women would suddenly be brainwashed into perpetuating the beliefs and prejudices of the particular Ajah they arbitrarily join just because the plot requires it?

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

It should be noted that the two nations that most oppose Tar Valon, Tear and Amadicia, are also the two that given women least positions of power and authority, having none in Amadicia and only a moderate amount in Tear.

I noticed that for Tear and expected as much for Amadicia.

I'm also kind of confused how the Dragon Reborn can acquire a following at all throughout the series. Lews Therin's reputation is completely blackened by history and tradition and the prophecies of the Dragon are just that - words. They are not necessarily true, and neither is the talk about the Last Battle and stuff. What's real - or at least more real than ancient history - are the experiences people had and have with mad male channelers and the various False Dragons.

But I'm actually intrigued how Rand's role as the savior is going to play out.

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

  Reveal hidden contents

The Seanchan Empire, the most powerful nation-state on the planet, is also a matriarchy, only having had female rulers since its second or third ruler over a thousand years ago, despite being founded by a man. Intriguingly, this is despite the former apparent corrupt rule of the continent by power-hungry female channellers.

 

The Seanchan empire being run by women doesn't really reflect well on female rule, does it? Both the entire enslavement thing of female channelers done at the command of the big woman in charge, apparently, as well as the fact that the entire society is pretty much a caricature a hierarchal Chinese or Mongol empire. I didn't read much about the Seanchan so far, just remembering the first ones showing up in the second novel. If that changes later on I'll comment on that.

But as a I said - Hawkwing and his son would have made more sense as female channelers defying the Aes Sedai. That way, we could have had a more complex/positive portrayal of female rulers. The imperial family in Seanchan could have later decided that only they should be allowed special powers, enslaving all the other channelers. Or the bloodline could have lost the ability, deciding that they would have to control the channelers if they wanted to remain in charge.

[Lord Varys]

As for characters being morons:

How believable is it that, at the end of TEotW, Moiraine and the gang hearing Padan Fain talk like Mordeth doesn't cause anyone to notice anything?

The guy flat-out tried to convince the ruler of Fal Dara to use his special mojo to attack the Shadow. I mean, is it just me, or didn't tell Moiraine the story about Mordeth's exploits and Shadar Logoth in the very same book? Shouldn't everybody immediately realize that Padan Fain might be possessed by Mordeth and that this would be a very, very bad and dangerous thing?

I mean, seriously, how dumb can those characters be?

[Gertrude]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The impression I get is that the societal framework during the Age of Legends would have been pretty much gender equality - to a greater degree, one imagines, than in our world at this point - so the Two Rivers situation would actually be a decline from that height, not an improvement.

Agreed - and that's why the traditional gender roles don't really bother me in the Two Rivers context. They are isolated, haven't seen a channeler or felt the effects of a channeler in ages, so when you're living a rural life with lots of hard work and little technology, it seems more natural to revert back to 'traditional' gender roles. And yes, the height of the Age of Legends was very different, but that world shattered, so we can't compare the two that much.