The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[Gertrude]

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I feel RJ gave his world a great deal of breadth. It feels to me like he did a lot of thinking on these questions we're asking. But rather than pursue a few avenues of "what if x changed, how does that affect y" in depth, he instead just did a lot of superficial things and stuck them into different cultures, either historical or just in a different location.

Agreed. I've always said his worldbuilding felt shallow to me when it came to the cultures. He did a lot of it, but didn't really think much about the whys of it. The magic system and bones of the world I feel are much more solid.

[Gertrude]

@fionwe1987 the point about Siuan and Moiraine hanging their plot on the fact that the other sisters won't remember them being friends 20 years ago has been brought up before and you admitted it was bad. You did say that it was corrected for in later books, but you admit it was bad. Here you are defending it all over again. I disagree that it was corrected later, because the initial point is so poorly thought out that it can't really be corrected. It makes no sense that with the other ajahs badgering her about Moiraine's behavior that not a single sister would put two and two together. It adds to the seeming foolishness of the Aes Sedai, especially in the first books where the expectations are set.

Why is your knee jerk response to defend, defend, defend when even you know that it's not worth defending?

[fionwe1987]

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

@fionwe1987 the point about Siuan and Moiraine hanging their plot on the fact that the other sisters won't remember them being friends 20 years ago has been brought up before and you admitted it was bad. You did say that it was corrected for in later books, but you admit it was bad. Here you are defending it all over again. I disagree that it was corrected later, because the initial point is so poorly thought out that it can't really be corrected. It makes no sense that with the other ajahs badgering her about Moiraine's behavior that not a single sister would put two and two together. It adds to the seeming foolishness of the Aes Sedai, especially in the first books where the expectations are set.

I may have, sure. I've read the books enough, and discussed it enough that I can make no claim to never having changed my mind on things like this. Do you happen to have a link to the discussion? It'd be interesting to see how it went. 

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Why is your knee jerk response to defend, defend, defend when even you know that it's not worth defending?

Can I ask why you're so interested in what I do? Is this a discussion of WoT, or a policing of what I defend and don't?

I think you're going to have as much success keeping me from discussing/defending what I want as people have had convincing Lord Varys that critiquing the books based on imperfect knowledge of the future direction of the stories is pointless. In the end, we do what's fun in a forum board.

I may well have conceded that it was a badly designed plot element in a different discussion with a different poster who made different arguments and brought up different points, especially from later books. In a different time, heck, I may have even brought it up as a plot hole. I don't make any claims to remembering everything I've written about WoT. 

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'd forgotten about the last missive being from Caemlyn. Good point on that.

That said, they end the scene explicitly saying they'll meet again the next day to talk. And in a subsequent chapter, when they discuss the Forsaken with Verin, we're seeing things from Moiraine's PoV and this comes up:

Siuan cannot lie, and I always took this to mean she's referring to the remaining Forsaken. Moiraine's thoughts on Lanfear that follow this don't make sense otherwise:

This isn't a complication Moiraine would think Siuan is worried about if she doesn't know a few Forsaken had been freed.

That makes no sense - Siuan talks about the Forsaken being still bound. Obviously nobody told her about Aginor and Balthamel nor about Ba'alzamon/Ishamael, or else she would have specifically talked about 'the other/remaining Forsaken'. Her entire sentence makes no sense if we were to assume she knew that some Forsaken were already out there. A consistently written novel would also use that opportunity - as well as the opportunity in the earlier chapter I'm talking about - as a means to reference events from the earlier books for the benefit of the reader, reintroduce the Forsaken as characters. That this doesn't happen makes no sense. It is either stupidity on Jordan's part or a deliberate attempt to ignore plotholes he himself created.

Stop treating this as if it were consistently written literature. It is inconsistent and internally contradictory.

And, of course, Siuan would be afraid of that complication regardless of other Forsaken. Because Rand is the Dragon Reborn and Lanfear has a history with Lews Therin.

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But the first meeting wasn't a full debrief. Even more important than the Forsaken being free is Ba'alzamon, or someone claiming to be him, touching the dreams of the three boys. Or the Eye of the World being used up. I'd imagine a case can be made for the Green Man being dead to be up there too.

It just doesn't make sense. Stop pretending that it does or could be.

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As for the male channeler attacking the Shadowspawn, that does seem to be conveniently forgotten, I agree. I don't see any signs of Moiraine trying to suppress it. Its just axed out of the memories of the Shienarans, it looks like. So the criticism on that is correct.

It is even more silly in light of the fact that the author didn't forget that Ba'alzamon burned or that Rand still believes he killed the Dark One. That comes up again repeatedly, but the other things do not come up.

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That wouldn't work. For one thing, mentioning the Eye is sure to doom them, because the Aes Sedai all know exactly what the Eye is. Saying "he we were near a giant pool of the same stuff used at Tarwin's Gap, so it wasn't us" is just plain stupid. Especially since the Eye is known to move around, in the Blight. 

But they were far away from the Eye and the Aes Sedai cannot know what was used to defeat the Shadowspawn. They cannot touch saidin and none of them were there to actually witness what happened.

If Moiraine hadn't told them what had happened at/with the Eye they would have to go look for it find out. And with it being conveniently destroyed such a quest would have likely led nowhere. In any case, they could not reasonably claim that one of Moiraine's male companions teleported from the Eye to the battlefield.

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RJ did write himself into a corner on that one, I think. It makes no sense this wasn't discussed at all, after EotW. Definitely a retcon.

That's not a retcon, it is just bad writing. A retcon is if you change something in a later book or explain a fact away with a new revelation. You are not retconning things if you just pretend they never happened and dumb down characters to the point that they become caricatures.

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It wasn't in the open. Only Agelmar was around for that discussion. And I'm sure if one directly went to him and said "tell me what Moiraine learned from questioning this Darkfriend", he'd share, but why would they think Moiraine specifically questioned a random Darkfriend in the cellars?

The first interaction was a in public place. Fain was escorted in, the people doing that didn't leave, etc.

You also are forgetting/ignoring that Moiraine apparently never questioned Fain in the dungeons. She summoned him to her presence - stupidly, since that caused her to overlook/not realize how Fain was influencing the other inmates and the guards - which is something Moiraine's enemies among the Aes Sedai would be interested in. After all, what has an Aes Sedai to talk about with a known Darkfriend privately? Couldn't that be a hint that she was Black Ajah?

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The weird things happening aren't relevant to their not publicly being friends once they were raised. Moiraine left the Tower, and we know she didn't return when Sierin Vayu was Amyrlin, because she directly disobeyed her orders. After that, we know it was Moiraine who went around hunting for the Dragon Reborn, and Siuan became the head of the Blue Ajah's eyes and ears, and later, Amyrlin. 

If they kept their meetings clandestine, and their public interactions brief, most Aes Sedai wouldn't care that they were lovers as Novices and Accepted, because that happens all the time. As your careers take you in different directions, friendships do ebb among Aes Sedai.

That's just silly writing. It turns people who are allegedly plotting all day long and influence international politics into silly children who cannot even remember things that happened a couple of decades ago. Not to mention that no sane person would make a plan like that if they are as intelligent as Moiraine and Siuan allegedly are (or rather: the author claims they - in truth they are obviously dumb characters). No smart person makes a plan based mainly on the hope that their enemies and adversaries won't remember the connection between the two.

The entire plot at the beginning of this book is a silly, inconsistent mess. The author decided to drag the Amyrlin to Fal Dara. He decided that she would be accompanied by Red and Black Ajahs. He didn't have to do that. He could have decided that Rand was no longer at Fal Dara when Siuan arrived, he could have had her arrive there all by herself or with companions she could trust.

The latter would have worked much better because, quite frankly, it is utterly ridiculous that the Aes Sedai at Fal Dara do not immediately realize that Rand is a channeler and the Dragon Reborn. Not after what happened at the end of the last book. In turn, Siuan being there only with her inner circle could have helped explain the coup later, because the Reds and others wouldn't have had any hand in what happened there at all.

The way things are written Siuan's companions wouldn't even know exactly why the hell the Amyrlin went to Fal Dara in the first place. Not because the miracle during the battle, not because of breaking seals or freed Forsaken because none of that was part of Moiraine's original message. The Dragon Reborn is neither revealed nor taken, so what exactly is Siuan's explanation as to why they all went to that place?

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Those immediately outside wouldn't be able to eavesdrop without anyone else noticing they're channeling at the Amyrlin's private room, which would be called out. The potential eavesdropper would have to be far from the quarters. And attempting to somehow convey complex information in writing while simultaneously dressing down someone doesn't sound like something any human can actually engage in convincingly. 

Well, then I'd say stick to reading till you find out you're wrong, and reassess your impression? 

If someone touches a ward against eavesdropping with the weave to listen in, the person who made the ward will detect it. This happens several times in later books while we're in the PoV of various major characters, so it's not like there's any doubt about this.

I'm reading the books as they are. And the book as it is implies that Siuan could stop others from eavesdropping while not being able to detect who would try to eavesdrop. All Siuan did with her spell there was to tell everyone that she and Moiraine were having secrets, meaning she weakened their position and knew it. That's just stupid.

And, of course, somebody in the anteroom could also try to eavesdrop, for instance, if she was alone there or worked together with fellow would-be eavesdroppers. Even more so, if all the people out there were either Black Ajah or part of the cabal planning to bring down Siuan for other reasons.

[Gertrude]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I may have, sure. I've read the books enough, and discussed it enough that I can make no claim to never having changed my mind on things like this. Do you happen to have a link to the discussion? It'd be interesting to see how it went. 

Can I ask why you're so interested in what I do? Is this a discussion of WoT, or a policing of what I defend and don't?

I think you're going to have as much success keeping me from discussing/defending what I want as people have had convincing Lord Varys that critiquing the books based on imperfect knowledge of the future direction of the stories is pointless. In the end, we do what's fun in a forum board.

I may well have conceded that it was a badly designed plot element in a different discussion with a different poster who made different arguments and brought up different points, especially from later books. In a different time, heck, I may have even brought it up as a plot hole. I don't make any claims to remembering everything I've written about WoT. 

This was from the now closed thread on the entertainment thread - it was barely a month ago and the conversation was with me, hence why I remembered it so well. I may link it later when I am at home.

Why does anyone care about anything on the internet? This one irks me because we just went over this and you were in agreement that it was a bad element. Then you're right back here defending it reflexively.

[Lord Varys]

Having reached the chapter where the prophecy about Lanfear comes up - a ridiculous plot device, by the way. No one would take their time during a daring raid to write such a ridiculous long and rambling text at a wall. Especially not if they first have to murder enough people to get the fresh blood.

While I remember that the villains are infighting and using misdirection occasionally, it seems silly and stupid to actually give the good guys a hint by sharing whatever prophetic knowledge they might have with their enemies. And how stupid the later bickering of Moiraine, Siuan, and Verin is whether this is a prophecy or not. What proof do they have that the prophecies about the Dragon Reborn are real? How exactly do you decide what a genuine prophecy before it comes true? You can't.

But back to the topic:

It is quite clear that Moiraine and Siuan had neither time nor opportunity to continue their conversation. They had their talk and they agreed that they might have another talk the next day ... which never came because the raid took place prior to the planned feast in the Amyrlin's honor on the very same day. And when they do have their post-raid talk it is still the same day.

Moiraine clearly is tight-lipped about all things relating to the Eye of the World and the Forsaken because Verin is there, but she clearly never told Siuan anything about what happened there. Which is both stupid for the character and the author as well as completely irresponsible from any possible in-universe POV you might take.

Also, if Verin is smart enough to figure out the truth about the Dragon Reborn without the entire Eye complex actually figuring into the equation - it never comes up - then it is even more silly that none of the other Aes Sedai figure this out.

Now that I'm going through that stuff again I realize how angry I was about this stuff back the first time around. It was here that the entire plot of the series started to break down. This is a book series about the final conflict between good and evil, but the first battle in that war which was fought and won at the end of the first novel is basically erased and ignored at the beginning of the second book. That's like Dumbledore and Snape forgetting that Harry confronted Voldemort in Quirrell's body at the end of the first book.

I'm honestly at a complete loss that this series was able to draw readers in after this disaster. Don't people care about plot logic?

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Now that I'm going through that stuff again I realize how angry I was about this stuff back the first time around. It was here that the entire plot of the series started to break down. This is a book series about the final conflict between good and evil, but the first battle in that war which was fought and won at the end of the first novel basically erased and ignored at the beginning of the second book.

Wait... what?  

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Wait... what?  

I think I'm pretty precise there, aside from forgetting the occasional verb.

Rand's victory over the Shadowspawn army at the pass as well as the appearance and subsequent defeat of Balthamel and Aginor aren't referenced early in the book. Rand basically saves the ass of an entire and finally spring returns ... and then nobody even talks about that miracle.

[David Selig]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm honestly at a complete loss that this series was able to draw readers in after this disaster. Don't people care about plot logic?

Most of them don't. Look at pretty much any bestseller list or a list of most popular movies or TV shows and you'd find ample proof for this.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, David Selig said:

Most of them don't. Look at pretty much any bestseller list or a list of most popular movies or TV shows and you'd find ample proof for this.

Yes, but this thing became a big phenomenom, no? With a great online community and all that.

And I'm always hearing about how things only get worse in the later novels. How is this possible when things are this worse this early?

[Ninefingers]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but this thing became a big phenomenom, no? With a great online community and all that.

And I'm always hearing about how things only get worse in the later novels. How is this possible when things are this worse this early?

The "worse" is different. 

I don't think I'm being spoilery to say that the story just sprawls out of control. The series got popular, Jordan became 'too big to edit', and started believing everything he wrote was gold and every idea he had was worth including. Massive side plots that go nowhere, etc, etc. 

And this isn't to bag on Jordan. This happens all the time with "Gardener" content creators, and can lead to sprawl, delay, or both. (Rothfuss, Martin, Rowling all leap to mind, or Tarantino if you prefer a different medium.) 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

The "worse" is different. 

Well, the complaints about little to nothing happening in the later books is also something that's true for book two. I'm well into the first quarter of the book and they are still stuck at Fal Dara when it was made clear at the end of the last book that they would leave. And I recall exactly the same basic setting for book 4 when they are all at Tear but nobody can bring themselves to leave that place. I'm not remembering whether it is the same in book 3, but the basic formula of the gang breaking up in every single book remains the same for the books I know.

3 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

I don't think I'm being spoilery to say that the story just sprawls out of control. The series got popular, Jordan became 'too big to edit', and started believing everything he wrote was gold and every idea he had was worth including. Massive side plots that go nowhere, etc, etc. 

Any examples for those? Him not really having any idea where the story was going I think one can already draw from the whole Padan Fain plot. That guy definitely wasn't conceived as a character who would become a big antagonist in his own right. And it is already silly how the author keeps him in the game in the second book.

[Gertrude]

To be honest, The Great Hunt was never a real favorite of mine. It had moments, but overall the bad outweighed the good for me. And you're sick of Padan Fain in book 2? Interesting.

[Lord Varys]

39 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

To be honest, The Great Hunt was never a real favorite of mine. It had moments, but overall the bad outweighed the good for me. And you're sick of Padan Fain in book 2? Interesting.

Not sick of him as a character. I certainly could see him doing something interesting during the series. I just think he is, so far, the best example for a character who started as a plot device and should, perhaps, have died the early death of the plot device he was.

That said - I think the idea of him merging with Mordeth and all that isn't necessarily bad. It certainly has potential ... but the ridiculous way in which the plot is executed is, frankly, disgusting. Even back in the first book it is not believable that neither Moiraine nor anyone in the gang would realize that Fain is no longer just Fain when the guy started to talk like Mordeth and suggested basically the same things Mordeth suggested to the rulers of Shadar Logoth. I mean, the guy even told them that he went to Shadar Logoth. How thick can these people possibly be?

But that Jordan actually has Fain mention Mordeth two times when talking to Rand and Egwene and neither picks up on that ... and that we later, honestly, get effectively the worst plot device in Egwene 'wanting to help Padan Fain', recruting Mat to go down to the dungeons after she already went there once with Rand is unbearable.

I'm thinking five seconds about how this could have worked better and I think I already came up with a better alternative: for instance, Mat searching out Mordeth-Fain because he had a dream due to the dagger's influence could have reintroduced the whole thing. Or the dagger just compelling him to search out Fain for a reason he doesn't really understand. And Mat being Mat and being under the influence of the dagger and/or Mordeth-Fain could have been unwilling or unable to inform the others about the danger.

It is similarly childish that Rand would assume that Egwene - who is down in the dungeon during a Trolloc attack - would actually be in grave danger because of the attack. He doesn't assume or expect that the Trollocs might be there to break Fain out, so there is literally no reason why he should assume he must find and protect her. The way to keep her safe would be to kill or repel the invading Trollocs.

Just the entire setting here is completely silly, even more so since it could have been made better very easily. First, make the Mordeth issues with Fain less visible (i.e. subtle writing). You could also have folks pick up the Mordeth issue, making him more dangerous in the process of that, creating actual suspense up to the point he escapes. For instance, Siuan could have had some Aes Sedai question/probe/investigate him because she and Moiraine had realized what he was, only for him to kill them during his escape.

The other thing would be to actual go with the plot you yourself set up in the first book, going with the semi-revelation of the Dragon Reborn and how that unfolds. If you want to slow things down then don't have the Amyrlin show up with a huge entourage (or at all - the Aes Sedai could have been preoccupied with the Seanchan situation). What you don't do is to ignore the own miracle you had Rand do in the last book nor do you have your characters behave like stupid children for (at least) the quarter of a novel.

It is also painful to read that those Aes Sedai don't seem to have anything to do. Liandrin can walk around and intimidate the people in the castle. Doesn't she have an actual job to do? If not, then why is she there? We hear Siuan mentioning that they had to mess with the weather big time to get to Fal Dara as quickly as they did - why didn't she leave some of the Aes Sedai in her entourage with the various villages to repair the damage they did? Obviously, most of the women in her employ do not fulfill a concrete function nor do they have a particular job nor are there there because the Amyrlin wanted it.

[Derfel Cadarn]

14 hours ago, Gertrude said:

To be honest, The Great Hunt was never a real favorite of mine. It had moments, but overall the bad outweighed the good for me. And you're sick of Padan Fain in book 2? Interesting.

Book 1 was a chore for me to finish, but, desperate for something to read on my daily commute, I got book 2 and got hooked on the series. That was late 1999; I read books 2-8 in about 10-14 days

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Book 1 was a chore for me to finish, but, desperate for something to read on my daily commute, I got book 2 and got hooked on the series. That was late 1999; I read books 2-8 in about 10-14 days

Really weird. I could not possibly read this or get sucked into it. Not after having to deal with an entire chapter of clumsy reintroductions of characters where Rand attempts and fails to leave a castle. That's an author trying and failing to advance the plot.

But honestly, what do you think about the Mordeth thing early in 'The Great Hunt'? Did you notice this during your first read? What did you think about that? What do you think about it now? Does this make sense?

[Ninefingers]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Any examples for those? 

 

I have a vague memory of some baddie (a rogue Aes Sedai?) being built up for a long time, only to be captured and taken away in a wagon with some line like 'and it was clear we'd never hear from her again'. It was laugh out loud ridiculous to me at the time. (It just smacked of 'Oh crap, I have too many plot lines going and I need to tie a few of these off because this is totally out of control'. Huge investment of time/pages/story with no payoff whatsoever.) 

Had to have been later in the series, but I'm useless for specifics. It's been a decade, sorry. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Really weird. I could not possibly read this or get sucked into it. Not after having to deal with an entire chapter of clumsy reintroductions of characters where Rand attempts and fails to leave a castle. That's an author trying and failing to advance the plot.

But honestly, what do you think about the Mordeth thing early in 'The Great Hunt'? Did you notice this during your first read? What did you think about that? What do you think about it now? Does this make sense?

Fain was an irritation, and that was jist over 20 years ago. Knowing how that character plotline ended doesnt help

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

I have a vague memory of some baddie (a rogue Aes Sedai?) being built up for a long time, only to be captured and taken away in a wagon with some line like 'and it was clear we'd never hear from her again'. It was laugh out loud ridiculous to me at the time.  

But I'm useless for specifics. It's been a decade, sorry. 

That sounds like a very bad plot ;-). I also laughed my ass off when I learned that the Seanchan situation is basically kind of resolved by murdering the entire Imperial Family. What a great way to resolve a complex plot.

Thinking a little bit more about the finale of the first book it also springs to mind how stupid Rand is. I mean, we do understand what those cords were the Forsaken and Rand himself were connected to, right? Aginor and Rand were absorbing the saidin from the Eye, and Ba'alzamon was fed power by the Dark One.

Yet Rand the Moron doesn't even think about the possibility that, like he cut off Aginor from the Eye, he might have just cut off the Ba'alzamon dude from the actual Dark One.

The fact that he is mistaken about the identity of Ba'alzamon is no excuse for him not to realize that cutting the black cord was what gave him the advantage over the guy and allowed him to seemingly kill him. Think, moron, think! If the guy you think was the Dark One was connected to some other power then, well, your idea/conclusion sucks unless there is a Darker One who is the boss of the Dark One.

The author is here just totally disrespectful to his own characters. The hints he gives which should and would be picked up by the characters in good literature are just there for the benefit of the reader while the MIA (morons in action) don't see them.

9 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Fain was an irritation, and that was jist over 20 years ago. Knowing how that character plotline ended doesnt help

Oh, I just meant specifically the fact that he talks as if he was/knows Mordeth and Egwene and Rand actually do know who and what Mordeth is and how dangerous he and his evil all-destroying fog are. Wouldn't this trigger an immediate 'We have to tell Moiraine/the Amyrlin/everybody about the potential danger we are all in' reaction?

Instead the author actually tries to sell us the idea that Egwene would continue to want to 'help' Fain after he gave his Mordeth talk. The girl spends time with the Aes Sedai, wants to be one of them, but doesn't talk to them about this?!

You just cannot take this seriously.

[Corvinus85]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Any examples for those? Him not really having any idea where the story was going I think one can already draw from the whole Padan Fain plot. That guy definitely wasn't conceived as a character who would become a big antagonist in his own right. And it is already silly how the author keeps him in the game in the second book.

I'm pretty sure he knew where the story needed to go, but he certainly fell in love with the sprawling world. Personally I think Fain plays a critical role further down the line, but he does outlive his welcome.