The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[Inkdaub]

20 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

Let's be honest that just means America was too slow in discovering Terry Pratchett.

I have always known people who liked Pratchett but this comparison has never worked for me.  I get the female character angle, but someone writing comedic spoofy satire and someone writing epic fantasy aren't really scratching the same itch, are they?  Am I the only one who separates stuff like that?

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, Inkdaub said:

Am I the only one who separates stuff like that?

No, they are distinctly different.

[fionwe1987]

So, the conversation got interesting again, and I'm going to say something here that I've often had difficulty expressing. I'll get to the other replies later (since there's now a ton to reply to), but in terms of WoT and gender:

I think a big part of why WoT is personally important to me is that it was distinctly responsible for my awakening to feminism and awareness of the gender binary. I find my memories of myself pre-WoT to be distinctly weird, because I can clearly see I was just a dude duding around completely unaware of the massive amounts of privilege that let me be me.

My reading and engaging with Wheel of Time also coincided with my queer awareness and understanding that hey, actually, I'm not just the typical dude.

WoT was a gateway drug to a lot of online interaction, and to other fantasy and science fiction that weren't in the "patriarchy=duh" genre of speculative fiction. Many of these are absolutely better works, when it comes to questioning gender, including all of Pratchett, which I found due to a recommendation in wotmania.

WoT is, of course, nowhere close to a deep meditation on gender or sexuality. But two things set it apart:

1. The sheer tonnage of female characters, and more importantly, female PoV characters. Beyond the primary and some major secondary characters, they aren't even reasonably well written, but in aggregate, they cover a lot of bases. Over 14 books, RJ did enough shallow portrayals of women who do different things, have different skills, different interests that for the reader, it's kind of difficult to state something like "in the world of the Wheel, women can't be X", because counterexamples abound.

Now, many of those counters are barely there characters, or historical characters. RJ, for instance, is completely unable to get into the head of a woman who is, say, a confident general. He tries, with Birgitte, who's a reluctant commander of soldiers, but he died before he could truly expand on it much.

So he resigns the likes of Rashima Kerenmosa and Amaresu to history. It would be wonderful if the show takes these historical examples and grafts some of their stories to living female characters.

2. This one is more personal, but I actually found myself more drawn to and in sympathy with the female characters, most of the time. Someone up the thread said something about how the female characters are called "bitchy" for exactly the same actions that the male characters are allowed to get away with, and that's absolutely one of the most frustrating aspects of the fandom. But the books, almost to a fault, have the women making the moral choice, the right choice, the difficult choice, with more clarity and sense compared to the men.

Also, almost all the cool moments of discovery and new uses of the One Power come from the women. Because they're not saddled with being ta'veren, or having convenient memories of the past, and because accessing saidar comes with no sense of fear/guilt, you see them fully embrace the Power and it's possibilities, and their achievements are their own, because they want that knowledge, and because they work for it. For me, the contrast with academia in our own world, of which I became a part right around when book 10 came out, was pretty stark. 

Whatever you can say about RJ's female characters, he had no trouble at all imagining women as great historians, scientists, politicians or administrators. Of having ambition and the vision to ask bigger questions and then get the answers. That may seem small, but if you go into academic science, the exact opposite assumption is still baked into a lot of men in these spheres. They discount, ignore or wish away accomplishments from anyone who's not a cis man.

And I think it matters that this is in epic fantasy. When the stakes are as high as they can be. The itch these "fate of the world" type stories scratch is different, and I think RJ's work is sadly still more an exception than the norm when it comes to female characters with lots of agency when it comes to the fate of the world. 

[Lord Varys]

The whole simplistic/lazy writing continues with the Lanfear-Rand thing.

It is Jordan who created Lanfear as a 3,000+ years old woman growing up in the utopian gender equal society of the Age of Legends. Yet she behaves exactly like a woman from Rand's era. He is even able to compare her behavior exactly to that of Egwene rather than viewing er as a strange mystery woman, somebody he attracted to because she is different from any woman he has met so far.

Nothing indicates that the relationship between men and women in Lanfear's time was different.

A more competent author - or one who would actually have wanted to depict men and women not as, effectively, two different species - would have depicted Lanfear as a woman who had considerable trouble to play the role of the damsel in distress ... but that comes naturally to her. Whenever her true persona comes out it is just her being evil, power-hungry, etc. ... not her making mistakes playing the role of a woman growing up in that era. Her enormous age is only hinted at by her vast knowledge, not by her general manners and behavior. And that is lazy writing. The worst thing in this regard is her silly complaint that she doesn't want to sleep with the people in the inn. That is the role of a noblewoman of that era, perhaps, but we are supposed to read this as her true persona coming out. But Lanfear would have spent quality times with Trollocs and other Shadowspawn. She should have no trouble with staying a night at an inn.

She is also as chaste as, say, a woman from the Two Rivers, never actually kissing Rand - which is something a woman from her era would have no problem with at all, presumably (and of course even less so she, personally).

Insofar as female warriors are concerned:

When Siuan demonstrates the power of the Aes Sedai to Nynaeve who wants to have a sword she, quite effectively, also makes it clear why an Aes Sedai doesn't really need a Warder as a warrior. At best an Aes Sedai needs eyes and ears around who spy assassins, etc. in time ... and then she can neutralize them.

[Slurktan]

Question for Wert given you have apparently read all of RJ's notes....... I'm rereading before the show and just finished Eye of the World.  Is it explained anywhere how the Green Man's bubble actually works?  Not persay that it works on need but more like how does it work on need?  Is it some complicated weaves? Most things in WoT actually have a pretty good explanation for them but I can't remember on this.  Is it something taken from the portal stones or the Snakes and Foxes? 

[fionwe1987]

5 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Question for Wert given you have apparently read all of RJ's notes....... I'm rereading before the show and just finished Eye of the World.  Is it explained anywhere how the Green Man's bubble actually works?  Not persay that it works on need but more like how does it work on need?  Is it some complicated weaves? Most things in WoT actually have a pretty good explanation for them but I can't remember on this.  Is it something taken from the portal stones or the Snakes and Foxes? 

It's related to the World of Dreams, where need is a mechanism by which you can find stuff.

The chaos around the Dark One's prison does seem to be very similar to Tel'aran'rhiod. The stalagmites and stalactites leading to Shayol Ghul change shape a lot depending on who's coming in, for instance.

So the idea that the Aes Sedai were able to create a kind of fold of reality, or a vacuole (described in book 7), that uses the need mechanism from TAR is the most likely answer to how this works.

This is assuming RJ even had all this worked out back before Eye of the World. I kind of doubt that. A lot of Dream world stuff got expanded on and got more proper rules only after Book 4. 

[Werthead]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Werthead

Can you elaborate a little bit about how get into WoT?

Your birthdate suggest you might have stumbled on it in the early 1990s when it first came out, very much like I could have if it had been more popular in Germany. In fact, I bought the Worldbook around 2000 and really liked the world described therein, later trying the read the books but not really enjoying the first book.

I got into fantasy around 1994, when I was 15, which is when I read Brooks, Tolkien, Weis & Hickman and Pratchett for the first time. I had previously read Lewis, Salvatore and Eddings. I picked up The Eye of the World in 1996 when  A Crown of Swords came out, on the flawless logic that if a series had seven books, it would have to be almost finished.

Quote

I have always known people who liked Pratchett but this comparison has never worked for me.  I get the female character angle, but someone writing comedic spoofy satire and someone writing epic fantasy aren't really scratching the same itch, are they?  Am I the only one who separates stuff like that?

No, but since Pratchett doesn't write "comedic spoofy satire," at least after the first two books, it's not really an issue. Pratchett instead writes secondary world fantasy in a world that's evidently absurd and knowing, whilst most fantasy is absurd but doesn't know it. Pratchett uses the Discworld to talk about historical, contemporary and real issues and ideas, and they work on the level of using wit to highlight genuine literary ideas (in the same vein as, say, some of the lighter Dickens).

Pratchett could write serious fantasy when he wanted - his non-Discworld Nation is like that - and he often dropped more serious ideas into the series. Small Gods is funny but it's also an incandescently furious takedown of religious fundamentalism. Night Watch is, at times, a genuinely dark story. Hogfather is a comedic Christmas fable but with an absolutely sociological and pitiless murderer as the main antagonist who isn't a very funny character at all.

Quote

Question for Wert given you have apparently read all of RJ's notes....... I'm rereading before the show and just finished Eye of the World.  Is it explained anywhere how the Green Man's bubble actually works?  Not persay that it works on need but more like how does it work on need?  Is it some complicated weaves? Most things in WoT actually have a pretty good explanation for them but I can't remember on this.  Is it something taken from the portal stones or the Snakes and Foxes?

Not really. The Green Man got a kind of summary but it was mostly cut-and-paste material from his glossary entry and bits from his appearances in The Eye of the World and The Shadow Rising (in flashback).

A note on the notes: RJ wrote the bulk of "the notes" in 1996-98, between ACoS and TPoD (and was likely the reason for the longer-than-normal delay between the two books). Anything from the books up to and including ACoS was usually summarised in the notes with excerpts from the prior books. That's why the notes ended up being "bigger than the main series" because it pretty much contains most of the main series in it, in excerpts.

[Maia]

On 10/25/2021 at 9:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

But the bigger point is that the general gender dynamics aren't that different in Baerlon or Caemlyn or even Fal Dara. We always have women running the domestic sphere, bossing around the husbands or employers (in the case of the women in the various inns who aren't the wives of the innkeeps), we have the same kind of gender apartheid with women's quarters and specific gendered jobs and tasks (women being excluded from the entire martial sphere, for instance).

Well, this is going to open up  as the series goes on. However, it is fair to aknowledge that women with importance to the narrative which hail from Randland proper tend to either have some supernatural ability or be nobles, whereas there are a number of mundane men who rose to prominence from a common background. There are female merchants and such in the background and, I think, some artisans, though I mostly recall seamstresses/female tailors.

 

On 10/26/2021 at 10:28 AM, Derfel Cadarn said:

Re men with the spark in Two Rivers, I suspect the Women’s Circle kept an eye for signs of men starting to Channel, and had the Wisdom deal with them.

A bit too much foxglove while treating their fever…

There isn't any sign of it in the text, though. What is more, they should have had female channelers crop up regularly too. There is even some mention in TEoTW about how some Wisdoms can truly "listen to the wind", i.e. subconsciously use their channeling to read the weather and some can't. But given that the channelers age much more slowly than normal and live much longer, it should have been noticeable. And yet, we never heard about _women_ leaving TR before Egwene and Nynaeve, or some Wisdoms living for centuries.

 

23 hours ago, Nabarg said:

Regarding Tolkien; for all his conservatism, ha never does the ” women is captive and in mortal/moral danger and has to be rescued by her lover”. Actually, the only time I can recall when a captive half of a love couple is rescued from dangerous captivity, is when Luthien  (together with the hound Huan) saves Bergen and Finrod from the captivity of Sauron. And Luthien does the main part of getting the Silmarils through first changing the shapes of her and Bergen, and then putting Morgoth to sleep.

 

Tuor did rescue Idril during the Fall of Gondolin. What is even more, Tolkien had her 7-year-old son trying to fight back, while she was just being dragged away by Maeglin, seemingly without any resistance on her part. Turin did try to rescue Finduilas/his womefolk, though it didn't pan out, of course.  He also repeatedly had women giving up on life/soujourn in ME once their husband died, which is arguably worse. Not to mention just had them conveniently be dead/unnamed, so as not to have to include them in the tale.

And of course you are right about Luthien - but it is worth noting that the LoTR narrative still names _Beren_ as the hero who won back the Silmaril. Not to mention that all the powerful women, with the exception of Galadriel, didn't have any drives or goals of their own, they just supported their lovers/husbands in whatever hairbrained scheme those were hatching. You can imagine my disappointment when I discovered that Tolkien couldn't find a way to meaningfully include Galadriel in The Silmarillion and associated writings! Speaking as a Tolkien fan, BTW.

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

I find especially with Nynaeve we just have the character of the obnoxious woman. There is little substance for her presumption to tell other people what to do or interfere with their affairs.

I disagree. Nynaeve used to have authority over these people, arguably saved the life of at least one of them and is very protective. Under the normal circumstances she was be somewhat justified in being suspicious and contrary. Yes, she is obnoxious, but there are reasons for her behavior and she has a lot of redeeming qualities.

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

Also, Jordan seems to have an almost pathological fear of being manipulated/subtly controlled by women. When Rand is given the Dragon banner during the chase he rages that he won't be controlled by women ... as if they have anything to do whose reincarnation he is.

Well, there are rumors that the White Tower occasionally props up the False Dragons so that they can later take them down with great fanfare and increase the Aes Sedai prestige. Some of them may have even been true - given all the Black Ajah meddling, honest mistakes by individual AS in identifying the Dragon (it is a bit of Catch-22 for them, in that they need to neutralize male channelers, but can't afford to do it to the real Dragon or the world would end), and possibly even calculated manipulations that they are being suspected of.

Given all the horrific prophecies about the Dragon, Rand has all the reasons to try to deny that he is it, for as long as he can. It is far more grating when Mat and Perrin tune in with their "why meee?!!" and attempt to avoid taking on any responsibility, when it is crystal clear that the world is going to hell in a basket and that they are, somehow, in position to do something about it. For some reason the author and many readers seem to think that their behavior is "humble" and endearing, when to me it always looked massively selfish and cowardly. At least once the female main characters see and understand the problem, they try to do something about it.

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

I guess simple guardsmen/men-at-arms could also fulfill that function.

Why would AS chose to have somebody inferior and maybe not entirely trustworthy at their back, given the alternative? This makes no sense.

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

Also, in light of the fact how few Aes Sedai apparently go out into the world in a Moiraine-like fashion (very few according to the first two books) the need for Warders to defend them while they are travelling wouldn't be that high.

2/3 of the AS are out in the world at any one time. It may not be evident in early TGH, but the author is not obliged to cram in every last bit of worldbuilding ASAP .

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

And, yes, of course the whole channeling thing should allow them to boost whatever mundane fighting skills they could learn. We see how ridiculously effective Rand is as a sword fighter when he faces that Seanchan lord at the end of the second book - which is a completely unbelievable stunt in light of the little actual training the boy received - which was basically the stuff Lan taught him on the road and a during their stay at Fal Dara (which means days).

Rand at least has some explanation for his elite fighting skills (unconscious leakage from LTT), it is much worse with Mat and Perrin, who aren't even mentioned as training during their stint at Fal Dara and IIRC aren't shown doing so ever.

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that would have been necessary for the False Dragon thing. False Dragons wouldn't be your run-of-the-mill male channeler but a very powerful and charismatic channeler who would not only have had the time and opportunity to hone his skills but also to gain a following. And that certainly would them put into a position of power.

The power differential is probably needed because the False Dragons are completely self taught and usually don't live that long after manifesting, while they  are going against people with proper training and decades or centuries of channeling experience. Admittedly, the AS are somewhat at a disadvantage since they are required to capture male channelers alive, but still. Honestly, it is not even the power gap as such that bugs me, but the many other benefits that Jordan bestowed on the male channelers, foremost among them being that in a link consisting of one man and one woman only the man can lead. And also that women being more "dextrous" in their weavings according to the World Book never played any role in anything. 

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think the Aes Sedai needed to be that stupid for the story to work. I mean, the entire plot of Siuan and Moiraine gambling with their interpretation of the prophecy and their hopes for Rand and this backfiring because the majority view of the Aes Sedai don't agree with their view reads very good on paper. It was just poorly executed.

Yes. But what is also problematic is how ta'veren makes random stupid, ignorant and impulsive actions of the 3 boys to be just what the prophecy/Pattern ordered. So, that logic and prior knowledge/experience are basically useless in planning anything where they are involved. Yet at the same time, they are not always right and do need to be  argued with and opposed occasionally. But it always appeared to me wholly  arbitrary and impossible to judge which was which from another character's viewpoint.

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

The whole thing of Egwene being set up as a puppet Amyrlin reads and feels silly to me at this point. The way for her to rise to the position of Amyrlin - if that had to happen - should have been on the basis of her accomplishments, not her potential power and use as a figurehead.

There is no time for it - the whole series only covers about 2 years. RJ was somehow incapable of properly pacing his timeline, just as GRRM is, sigh. He solved it with the boys by making all of them ta'veren and just having things fall into their laps, regardless. The girls actually have to work to get anywhere. Egwene as a puppet Amyrlin works much better than the alternative and is a decent plot-line that could have been much better if the AS themselves were presented with a modicum of thoughtfulness.

 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

The Keeper who made the prophecy in ANS actually did die giving, by the way. That could indicate that she may have lied there, no? At least I didn't understand why making a prophecy should kill you.

No. She was at the end of her lifespan and that's how AS die when their time is up. The shock probably hastened it slightly. Agree to disagree about the belief in prophecies in a world where they are demonstrably real. Also, the foundational mission of the White Tower was to be on lookout for the Dragon's rebirth. That's why it was built where it was.

 

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Maia said:

It is far more grating when Mat and Perrin tune in with their "why meee?!!" and attempt to avoid taking on any responsibility, when it is crystal clear that the world is going to hell in a basket and that they are, somehow, in position to do something about it. For some reason the author and many readers seem to think that their behavior is "humble" and endearing, when to me it always looked massively selfish and cowardly.

This argument sounds a lot like what people who hate Catelyn and Sansa say, that they're self-centered about their travails. Like,  yeah? They're stuck in terrible situations which they can't do anything about, and don't really want to be in.

The difference between Mat and Perrin and the Two Rivers girls (plus Elayne) is that the girls want to be channelers and Aes Sedai (even Nynaeve, in time), and pretty much all they do is part and parcel of their self-image. And not only do they want it, but they have a genuine choice. Mat and Perrin do not want to be heroes, do not want the fates of others resting on their choices, but the Pattern literally forces them to be. They are its puppets and because they lack real freedom, they of course bemoan that lack freedom.

And yet! They always end up doing the right thing, because they are in fact genuine heroes. I fully expect that if Elayne or Egwene believed the Pattern was literally forcing them to do these things and she didn't have genuine choice that she, too, would bemoan that fact.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

it is much worse with Mat and Perrin, who aren't even mentioned as training during their stint at Fal Dara and IIRC aren't shown doing so ever.

Mat's father is the best staff fighter in the Two Rivers, and doubtless taught his son. Besides that, there's some clear "old blood" memory leakage from one or more past lives as a warrior in Manetheren. And then the additional memories the Finn put in. And extraordinary reflexes and hand-eye coordination as showing with his (literally impossible) juggling. And finally his preternatural luck that goes even beyond his ta'veren nature.

Perrin seems a matter of exceptional physical capacity combined with the ta'veren luck and perhaps his wolfbrother nature giving him an added savage willingness to fight. I recently saw a fan made a replica of Perrin's hammer as described in the Sanderson books, and the thing weighs 40lbs... oops! 

Oh, and all three have been shooting bows from boyhood, so that's why their archery is good. Presumably all three know how to use a quarterstaff as well, for that matter.

 

 

 

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Well, this is going to open up  as the series goes on. However, it is fair to aknowledge that women with importance to the narrative which hail from Randland proper tend to either have some supernatural ability or be nobles, whereas there are a number of mundane men who rose to prominence from a common background. There are female merchants and such in the background and, I think, some artisans, though I mostly recall seamstresses/female tailors.

Spoiler

Aludra is a mundane female character who rises to some prominence, but she's not much of a character. 

Egeanin/Leilwin is another example, I suppose.

Idriene? The woman who heads Rand's academy in Cairhein?

 

But this is a good catch, on the whole. We don't get as many mundane women rising to power in the series as men.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

 

There isn't any sign of it in the text, though. What is more, they should have had female channelers crop up regularly too. There is even some mention in TEoTW about how some Wisdoms can truly "listen to the wind", i.e. subconsciously use their channeling to read the weather and some can't. But given that the channelers age much more slowly than normal and live much longer, it should have been noticeable. And yet, we never heard about _women_ leaving TR before Egwene and Nynaeve, or some Wisdoms living for centuries.

I'm pretty sure we learn somewhere that those who survive as wilders on their own, but are blocked, like Nynaeve, typically don't end up channeling enough to slow.

We do learn of a woman in one of the other towns, a Wisdom's apprentice, who dies from what sounds like channeling sickness within the living memory of the current people. Nynaeve survives. Whether Egwene would have on her own or not is an open question, and the same for Bode and Janacy, the other two born with the Spark.

Only one in four is supposed to survive. It's an open question if so many sparkers being born at once is more about the end of the Age, or a regular thing, but if you have 2-3 women per generation who are born with the spark, and one at most managed to survive, I don't think it would occasion much comment. People do die of mysterious illnesses, and since these women wouldn't ever consciously channel, the increased age wouldn't be anywhere near where they'd get if they got conscious control.

Nynaeve is supposed to be able to live about 750-800 years. But if she'd remained in the Two Rivers, that wouldn't have happened, and the evidence is, she does look visibly older than Egwene and the boys, which she wouldn't have if she'd slowed properly.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Given all the horrific prophecies about the Dragon, Rand has all the reasons to try to deny that he is it, for as long as he can. It is far more grating when Mat and Perrin tune in with their "why meee?!!" and attempt to avoid taking on any responsibility, when it is crystal clear that the world is going to hell in a basket and that they are, somehow, in position to do something about it. For some reason the author and many readers seem to think that their behavior is "humble" and endearing, when to me it always looked massively selfish and cowardly. At least once the female main characters see and understand the problem, they try to do something about it.

Amen to this. I have no problem with Perrin and Mat being reluctant to take up responsibility. What irks me is that people don't notice the contrast of the women not shirking their responsibility.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Rand at least has some explanation for his elite fighting skills (unconscious leakage from LTT), it is much worse with Mat and Perrin, who aren't even mentioned as training during their stint at Fal Dara and IIRC aren't shown doing so ever.

Mat, we know, trained with his dad. Perrin truly is inexplicable. Not in that he gets reasonably competant, but that he just doesn't practice, that we can see.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

The power differential is probably needed because the False Dragons are completely self taught and usually don't live that long after manifesting, while they  are going against people with proper training and decades or centuries of channeling experience. Admittedly, the AS are somewhat at a disadvantage since they are required to capture male channelers alive, but still. Honestly, it is not even the power gap as such that bugs me, but the many other benefits that Jordan bestowed on the male channelers, foremost among them being that in a link consisting of one man and one woman only the man can lead. And also that women being more "dextrous" in their weavings according to the World Book never played any role in anything. 

Yeah the link dynamics are infuriating. I think RJ thought that the "balance" for only women being able to initiate a link was only men being able to lead small links. And also, the largest possible one, of 72. It's just a terrible aspect of the books that I hope the show completely gets rid of.

Also, the dexterity thing does play a role, in that functionally, we never see a strong female channeler struggle with a strong male one. Whether it's Lanfear against Rand, or Graendal threatening Sammael, or Semirhage taking on Rand... Functionally, there's no difference.

This is a clear retcon, btw. When Asmodean teaches Rand, he says men are stronger and the women make up for it by being able to link.

I think RJ figured out exactly how ludicrous and sexist that sounds, and decided to toss in the dexterity thing to make up for it. 

For what it's worth, the way saidin is described as wild torrent vs saidar being a placid river you guide does support the idea that men would "leak" power, so would need more to do stuff that women can do with less volume of the Power.

But I feel RJ went a little too far in the "different but equal" description of various aspects of the Power. Firstly in coming up with stuff that wasn't equal at all, and then in patching it up in not so great ways to make things more equal.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Yes. But what is also problematic is how ta'veren makes random stupid, ignorant and impulsive actions of the 3 boys to be just what the prophecy/Pattern ordered. So, that logic and prior knowledge/experience are basically useless in planning anything where they are involved. Yet at the same time, they are not always right and do need to be  argued with and opposed occasionally. But it always appeared to me wholly  arbitrary and impossible to judge which was which from another character's viewpoint.

And it doesn't help that the audience reads this as the guys are always right, and the women are bitches any time they oppose them. Both Prophesy and ta'veren are cool tools, but RJ screwed himself and his story, I feel, by keeping those exclusively for the 3 boys.

53 minutes ago, Ran said:

This argument sounds a lot like what people who hate Catelyn and Sansa say, that they're self-centered about their travails. Like,  yeah? They're stuck in terrible situations which they can't do anything about, and don't really want to be in.

Not comparable, though. Catelyn and Sansa's travails are not being handed more power and responsibility. For Catelyn, it is literally being trained to lead a Great House, then being forced into an entirely domestic sphere. For Sansa, it is literal and repeated violation of her bodily autonomy. 

While that last does happen to Mat, it's one of the worst handled storylines in the books, and also not the major source of his complaining.

And I think Perrin's and Mat's reluctance is totally ok. The issue is more how the fans receive this compared to the "roll up your sleeves and do the damn job" attitude the women have, which is perceived as interfering and bitchiness by and large. 

53 minutes ago, Ran said:

The difference between Mat and Perrin and the Two Rivers girls (plus Elayne) is that the girls want to be channelers and Aes Sedai (even Nynaeve, in time), and pretty much all they do is part and parcel of their self-image.

Not really, though. They want to be Aes Sedai, but none of them is eager to be fighting the Last Battle, or being responsible for the fate of the world. Their roles aren't part of that at all. Elayne, at least, knew she'd be a major player in the world stage. But neither Egwene nor Nynaeve had much reason to expect that.

53 minutes ago, Ran said:

And not only do they want it, but they have a genuine choice.

Egwene does not. She cannot refuse to be named Amyrlin. The only choice she has was between being a puppet who would most likely die as the competing political interests of the Rebels caused them to fail, and taking the Rebellion into her own hands and saving her life as a consequence, or at least losing it in a way where she has agency.

53 minutes ago, Ran said:

Mat and Perrin do not want to be heroes, do not want the fates of others resting on their choices, but the Pattern literally forces them to be. They are its puppets and because they lack real freedom, they of course bemoan that lack freedom.

But Egwene and Nynaeve don't have much choice either. They were born with the ability to channel, remember?

53 minutes ago, Ran said:

And yet! They always end up doing the right thing, because they are in fact genuine heroes. I fully expect that if Elayne or Egwene believed the Pattern was literally forcing them to do these things and she didn't have genuine choice that she, too, would bemoan that fact.

They do know that, about several of the things that happen to them, and they in fact so not bemoan that. They accept it as something that happens, and that the best way to gain control is to give in a little and guide the direction of their futures to the best of their abilities.

It's the whole surrender to saidar, fight saidin duality, laid out in their lives. But where fighting saidin is required to use it, in the world of WoT, at least, fighting the Pattern isn't the smart choice. And that's what Perrin, at least, eventually has to learn, no?

53 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

 

[Ran]

44 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

And I think Perrin's and Mat's reluctance is totally ok. The issue is more how the fans receive this compared to the "roll up your sleeves and do the damn job" attitude the women have, which is perceived as interfering and bitchiness by and large. 

I think we already went over this. First, I do not recognize "the fans" you speak of, because that's not how things were when I was last involved with the fandom, and I really hate litigating your wars with some fans elsewhere here. It doesn't matter to me what other people elsewhere allegedly think.

Quote

They want to be Aes Sedai, but none of them is eager to be fighting the Last Battle, or being responsible for the fate of the world. Their roles aren't part of that at all. Elayne, at least, knew she'd be a major player in the world stage. But neither Egwene nor Nynaeve had much reason to expect that.

The Last Battle is there, and being an Aes Sedai is becoming a "Servant of All" who by default is there to help save the world from the Dark One. They are choosing this. They maybe would have preferred it did not come to it, but it is what it is, and they repeatedly make choices to dig into things and pursue things because they genuinely want to rather than being forced to do so.

Quote

Egwene does not. She cannot refuse to be named Amyrlin.

No, but she wanted to become an Aes Sedai, and that's where she ended up. She took the first step on the path, and the second, and the tenth, willingly.

Quote

But Egwene and Nynaeve don't have much choice either. They were born with the ability to channel, remember?

Eh? Nynaeve could have said no way, for certain. She chose to join the White Tower to get revenge on Moiraine (somehow). And Egwene wanted the things being an Aes Sedai would bring her, the opportunities for adventure and whatnot. Neither chose to be channelers, but being born channelers did not mean they no longer had freedom. 

Mat, Rand, and Perrin are amazingly unfree, and bemoan it to lesser or greater degree, because they know that the Pattern is pushing them on and forcing them into situations rather than their being the results of their own choices. It doesn't matter if they get "more power" because of it, power that you wield because the Pattern tells you see is not the same thing as "freedom".

Look at it as a matter of agency. You are absolutely right for the boys to be reluctant, because they have less agency than most people, and I think (again) that had Egwene been a ta'veren, even if it brought her everything it wanted, the keen feeling of not having nuch freedom because the Pattern kept forcing her one way would show up. Even if events are forcing her in some direction in the book, she knows it's not because of some irrevocable outside agency that is using her as a puppet, it's just that that's how the cookie crumbles and if she wants off the ride she can probably figure it out. Knowing that, even if you don't actually want to stop the ride so to speak, is comforting because it's a belief in your fundamental agency.

 

[fionwe1987]

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think we already went over this. First, I do not recognize "the fans" you speak of, because that's not how things were when I was last involved with the fandom, and I really hate litigating your wars with some fans elsewhere here. It doesn't matter to me what other people elsewhere allegedly think.

And yet, how fans react to Sansa and Catelyn are valid for you to bring up?

This may not be your memory of it, but a quick dash through Reddit should show you that that strain of thinking is very much how a lot of fans see these characters. Not unlike how plenty of GoT fans hate Sansa and Catelyn, though the reasons and specifics are very different, of course. 

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

The Last Battle is there, and being an Aes Sedai is becoming a "Servant of All" who by default is there to help save the world from the Dark One. They are choosing this. They maybe would have preferred it did not come to it, but it is what it is, and they repeatedly make choices to dig into things and pursue things because they genuinely want to rather than being forced to do so.

That's the point, though. The Last Battle is here. Mat and Perrin can bemoan their specific role in it, but they can't choose to be unaffected by it. No one can. 

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

No, but she wanted to become an Aes Sedai, and that's where she ended up. She took the first step on the path, and the second, and the tenth, willingly.

But not the one that placed her right in the center of the struggle. That wasn't her choice, and one she outright rejected:

Quote

“But I wouldn’t know what to do! Not the first thing!” Egwene drew a deep breath. It did not really calm her racing heart, but it helped. A little. Aiel heart. Whatever they did, she would not let them bully her. Eyeing Morvrin’s bluff, hard face, she added, She can skin me, but she can’t bully me. “This is ridiculous is what it is. I won’t paint myself for a fool in front of everybody, and that is what I’d be doing. If this is why the Hall summoned me, I’ll tell them no.”

“I fear that is not an option,” Anaiya sighed, smoothing her robe, a surprisingly frilly thing in rose silk, with delicate ivory lace bordering every edge. “You cannot refuse a summons to become Amyrlin any more than you could a summons for trial. The words of the summons are even the same.” That was heartening; oh, yes, it was.

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

Eh? Nynaeve could have said no way, for certain. She chose to join the White Tower to get revenge on Moiraine (somehow). And Egwene wanted the things being an Aes Sedai would bring her, the opportunities for adventure and whatnot. Neither chose to be channelers, but being born channelers did not mean they no longer had freedom. 

Again, the choice to be Aes Sedai is not what I'm talking about. 

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

Mat, Rand, and Perrin are amazingly unfree, and bemoan it to lesser or greater degree, because they know that the Pattern is pushing them on and forcing them into situations rather than their being the results of their own choices. It doesn't matter if they get "more power" because of it, power that you wield because the Pattern tells you see is not the same thing as "freedom".

That isn't true, though. The Pattern forces them into situations that brings out their heroism, but they definitely have a choice. The choices are just very stark and not in any way easy for anyone with any morality to make. But that same thing happens to plenty of other characters. Siuan and Moiraine, for instance, didn't choose to be present when the birth of the Dragon was announced. They didn't choose to be the only two who knew who were Accepted and thus overlooked by the Black Ajah. The Pattern is doing it's thing there, too, if not as strongly as it would for a ta'veren. 

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

Look at it as a matter of agency. You are absolutely right for the boys to be reluctant, because they have less agency than most people, and I think (again) that had Egwene been a ta'veren, even if it brought her everything it wanted, the keen feeling of not having nuch freedom because the Pattern kept forcing her one way would show up. Even if events are forcing her in some direction in the book, she knows it's not because of some irrevocable outside agency that is using her as a puppet, it's just that that's how the cookie crumbles and if she wants off the ride she can probably figure it out. Knowing that, even if you don't actually want to stop the ride so to speak, is comforting because it's a belief in your fundamental agency.

This isn't true. The Pattern doesn't just pull ta'veren. It pulls everyone, and the ta'veren are one mechanism by which it directs everyone else. Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne aren't ta'veren themselves, but they're definitely trapped in the Great Web the Pattern is weaving around Rand, and to a lesser extent, Perrin and Mat.

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

 

[Ran]

23 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

And yet, how fans react to Sansa and Catelyn are valid for you to bring up?

Sir, this is a Wendy's Forum of Ice and Fire.  

A forum of which Maia has been a member from pretty early on in its earliest iterations. She knows exactly what I am referring to, namely that I know she has similar views about fans who bash Sansa and Catelyn for bemoaning their situations, and so I'm pointing out what seemed to me a disconnect in her views on Perrin and Mat.

 

 

 

[fionwe1987]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Sir, this is a Wendy's Forum of Ice and Fire.  

A forum of which Maia has been a member from pretty early on in its earliest iterations. She knows exactly what I am referring to, namely that I know she has similar views about fans who bash Sansa and Catelyn for bemoaning their situations, and so I'm pointing out what seemed to me a disconnect in her views on Perrin and Mat.

 

 

 

Lol, ok, but while this isn't a Wheel of Time forum, clearly, you also don't have to take me on trust when it comes to fan reaction to the female characters. It's out there in the many different forums, though less prevalent in some than in others. This isn't one discussion I personally had one time with someone somewhere. 

[Poobah]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Nynaeve is supposed to be able to live about 750-800 years. But if she'd remained in the Two Rivers, that wouldn't have happened, and the evidence is, she does look visibly older than Egwene and the boys, which she wouldn't have if she'd slowed properly.

I'm fairly sure she had begun to slow at least a little as from what I recall it's mentioned that the lack of respect she gets from some of the assholes in the village is because of how young she looks and to me that was one of those lil details that Jordan liked to slip in.

[fionwe1987]

25 minutes ago, Poobah said:

I'm fairly sure she had begun to slow at least a little as from what I recall it's mentioned that the lack of respect she gets from some of the assholes in the village is because of how young she looks and to me that was one of those lil details that Jordan liked to slip in.

Yes, a little, but she's also clearly not looking like a 17 year old or something, which is what she'd look like for a good long while if she'd been consciously channeling for almost a decade, given her strength. We in fact see a Sea Folk Windfinder's apprentice who Nynaeve assumes is younger than 15, but who's 19, to Nynaeve's shock. And she is nearly as strong as Nynaeve, which means she's been channeling a while, explaining how very young she looks. 

Nynaeve looks younger than 26 because she has slowed a little. But not as young as she'd have looked if she was channeling for the same period of time, but consciously.

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Maia said:

Well, this is going to open up  as the series goes on. However, it is fair to aknowledge that women with importance to the narrative which hail from Randland proper tend to either have some supernatural ability or be nobles, whereas there are a number of mundane men who rose to prominence from a common background. There are female merchants and such in the background and, I think, some artisans, though I mostly recall seamstresses/female tailors.

So far I was pleasantly surprised that the innkeep of the inn where Rand and Lanfear stayed a night was a woman.

Have to say, though, that the whole 'game of houses' thing is pretty cringe. It isn't subtle to try to push a guy on the street to accept your soldiers as 'escort'.

Also, is Lanfear stupid? She hooked up with Rand and had ample time and opportunity to influence and make him fall in love with her. Why the hell does she leave him when she doesn't have to?

My earlier point about the author apparently only putting clues in for the benefit of the reader but not as something the characters actually see or remember later has been verified for the first time by the novel in question. The gang did see Lanfear earlier - there was a woman in a white at the window in the village where Fain butchered the Myrddraal, and I think they saw her a second time on the road. Yet when Hurin, Rand, and Loial are in the parallel world and save her from the monsters nobody asks themselves or each other or 'Selene' whether she was the woman they saw earlier.

How stupid is that? In what kind of setting does this make sense?

Oh, and knowing that Verin is Black Ajah and, supposedly, very smart it doesn't make any sense that she would claim that Moiraine sent her when joining the gang who remained with Ingtar, right? I seem to remember that Moiraine did not, actually, send her, meaning she is rather lucky that nobody ever connected those dots, right?

8 hours ago, Maia said:

Tuor did rescue Idril during the Fall of Gondolin. What is even more, Tolkien had her 7-year-old son trying to fight back, while she was just being dragged away by Maeglin, seemingly without any resistance on her part. Turin did try to rescue Finduilas/his womefolk, though it didn't pan out, of course.  He also repeatedly had women giving up on life/soujourn in ME once their husband died, which is arguably worse. Not to mention just had them conveniently be dead/unnamed, so as not to have to include them in the tale.

And of course you are right about Luthien - but it is worth noting that the LoTR narrative still names _Beren_ as the hero who won back the Silmaril. Not to mention that all the powerful women, with the exception of Galadriel, didn't have any drives or goals of their own, they just supported their lovers/husbands in whatever hairbrained scheme those were hatching. You can imagine my disappointment when I discovered that Tolkien couldn't find a way to meaningfully include Galadriel in The Silmarillion and associated writings! Speaking as a Tolkien fan, BTW.

Beren is the hero. Lúthien is basically just his version of Navi ... or Midna, if you prefer a female helper who is more active. Beren doesn't have the power to do much, but he is still the guy who insists on the quest and the guy who cuts the Silmaril out of the crown, etc.

Tolkien certainly has a tendency to pair powerful men with even more powerful women (Thingol-Melian, Celeborn-Galadriel, in a sense even Aragorn-Arwen) which kind of sugar-coats this ... but that doesn't affect their role in the society they live. They are companions and helpers, they do not rule in their own right like a man would.

Another striking feature in this regard is that Tolkien actually has Eärendil tell Elwing to wait in the boat while he, the mighty man, goes to confront the Valar. This could have been the chosen Halfelven pair laying the case of the Elves and Men before the Powers ... but no, it had to be only the guy.

Although the new book is rather interesting in the sense that the aging Tolkien repeatedly indicated that Gil-galad, in the early SA, only ruled as king under Galadriel , granting her authority that is both quite unexpected and completely without precedent. But this, of course, nothing that he ever fleshed out in the stories.

Galadriel in Lórien has much informal power. But Celeborn still is the guy in charge of things, even if Galadriel - like Melian - keeps the enemies out of the forest.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

I disagree. Nynaeve used to have authority over these people, arguably saved the life of at least one of them and is very protective. Under the normal circumstances she was be somewhat justified in being suspicious and contrary. Yes, she is obnoxious, but there are reasons for her behavior and she has a lot of redeeming qualities.

She gets a little better, but it is really childish to want to be an Aes Sedai to punish Moiraine for what's basically a fictional crime. When Siuan gives her her first big lesson she should already be beyond that.

Having read that she is going to join the Yellow Ajah eventually, I also find that this is kind of a letdown. Yes, healing was her original profession, but she is so good at that that it might have made sense that she wanted to pursue another career - if you want to call it that - as an Aes Sedai. Like, say, fighting or something a little bit more active.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

Well, there are rumors that the White Tower occasionally props up the False Dragons so that they can later take them down with great fanfare and increase the Aes Sedai prestige. Some of them may have even been true - given all the Black Ajah meddling, honest mistakes by individual AS in identifying the Dragon (it is a bit of Catch-22 for them, in that they need to neutralize male channelers, but can't afford to do it to the real Dragon or the world would end), and possibly even calculated manipulations that they are being suspected of.

Well, weren't there just a handful or so False Dragons in total? And some of them weren't even channelers. And isn't the main/only source for this kind of thing Ba'alzamon, who claims the White Tower wants to use Rand? If Rand didn't believe that guy was the Dark One himself it might make sense for him to consider the guy might tell the truth ... but in light of the fact what he actually believes he shouldn't really buy that.

That Rand doesn't like the idea of being the Dragon as such is fine. But I think TGH fails at portraying that in light of the fact that Rand should and would have revealed who he was already in the finale of the first book if Jordan didn't chose to completely ignore that in the second one.

He cannot be as stupid as thinking he could have used all that saidin to kill Aginor (one of the most powerful Forsaken), the guy he thought was the Dark One himself, and a gigantic army of Shadowspawn if he were just a run-of-the-mill male channeler. Jordan could have portrayed him as having trouble to cope with who he was, trouble having to accept it, wishing it wasn't the case, trying to run away from that destiny ... but not blaming the scheming women for turning him into something he isn't.

Because that doesn't make sense at this point.

Structurally, it seems to me that the finale of TEotW was ignored because Jordan had decided he wanted another big 'Dragon revelation scene' at the end of the second book.

Also, it is really childish how Nynaeve is tormented by that vision of Aginor in her first trial while the text not once referencing that the real Aginor died at the Eye at the hands of Rand.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

Given all the horrific prophecies about the Dragon, Rand has all the reasons to try to deny that he is it, for as long as he can. It is far more grating when Mat and Perrin tune in with their "why meee?!!" and attempt to avoid taking on any responsibility, when it is crystal clear that the world is going to hell in a basket and that they are, somehow, in position to do something about it. For some reason the author and many readers seem to think that their behavior is "humble" and endearing, when to me it always looked massively selfish and cowardly. At least once the female main characters see and understand the problem, they try to do something about it.

To this point that's not really a problem for me, although I think Perrin is a little bit too preoccupied with his private issues. He seems to have more issues with being 'marked' by the wolfbrother thing than most people he interacts with. And Mat has an excuse while the dagger issue isn't resolved. But I remember that this will be resolved and then we get a completely pointless and stupid plot of him winning money 'to flee' Tar Valon, etc.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

Why would AS chose to have somebody inferior and maybe not entirely trustworthy at their back, given the alternative? This makes no sense.

With the recent Draghkar attack, the Warders first justified their existence. Although such attacks should be rather rare. Considering the abilities of the Aes Sedai they should not really need armies to defend themselves or Tar Valon, no? They could immobilize any force that tries to attack them.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

2/3 of the AS are out in the world at any one time. It may not be evident in early TGH, but the author is not obliged to cram in every last bit of worldbuilding ASAP .

In the books so far we hear repeatedly that Moiraine being out there is pretty exceptional. She just visited the two old sisters in that village doing some research, but while they aren't at the Tower they aren't exactly out in the world, either.

And in light of the Aes Sedai not being able to heal themselves - why the hell isn't it standard procedure that two Aes Sedai always travel together? That would make everything much more easier!

8 hours ago, Maia said:

Rand at least has some explanation for his elite fighting skills (unconscious leakage from LTT), it is much worse with Mat and Perrin, who aren't even mentioned as training during their stint at Fal Dara and IIRC aren't shown doing so ever.

Oh, so Lews Therin, who was born in an utopian age where weapons had to be reinvented - and who lived in an age where swords were likely the least important weapon of the many the good and the bad guys invented - was a great swordfighter? That comes as a surprise.

So far Perrin killing the Whitecloaks with his axe was fine. And Mat is the one with the genetic memory and the weirdo dagger connection, so that could also do something for him, I guess.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

The power differential is probably needed because the False Dragons are completely self taught and usually don't live that long after manifesting, while they  are going against people with proper training and decades or centuries of channeling experience. Admittedly, the AS are somewhat at a disadvantage since they are required to capture male channelers alive, but still. Honestly, it is not even the power gap as such that bugs me, but the many other benefits that Jordan bestowed on the male channelers, foremost among them being that in a link consisting of one man and one woman only the man can lead. And also that women being more "dextrous" in their weavings according to the World Book never played any role in anything. 

I'd be surprised if this were actually the explanation there. Some of the False Dragons weren't even channelers, no, and there were so few of them that the few who showed up could have been easily enough extremely gifted. Not to mention that the Shadow could have propped them up to wreak havoc.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

There is no time for it - the whole series only covers about 2 years. RJ was somehow incapable of properly pacing his timeline, just as GRRM is, sigh. He solved it with the boys by making all of them ta'veren and just having things fall into their laps, regardless. The girls actually have to work to get anywhere. Egwene as a puppet Amyrlin works much better than the alternative and is a decent plot-line that could have been much better if the AS themselves were presented with a modicum of thoughtfulness.

Jordan could easily enough have found ways for Egwene to train some more - say, by being stuck with a talented teacher in a parallel dimension/reality or a ter'angreal where time went differently. That way she could have learned stuff in a month she would have to learn in ten years in the real world. This is a setting where something like that could easily happen.

But the idea was more that Egwene ended up at the top somewhat slower, due to whatever heroic deeds she did during the first couple of books.

Not to mention that Jordan really had to make it so that the Aes Sedai trained as long as they do under normal circumstances. That is a problem he created for himself at a time when he basically had the girls go to Tar Valon.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

No. She was at the end of her lifespan and that's how AS die when their time is up. The shock probably hastened it slightly. Agree to disagree about the belief in prophecies in a world where they are demonstrably real. Also, the foundational mission of the White Tower was to be on lookout for the Dragon's rebirth. That's why it was built where it was.

Oh, I'm not saying the Aes Sedai shouldn't believe in the prophecies about the Dragon Reborn. That they do is a rather intriguing part of the story. It is more that some could have had reasonable doubts about certain interpretations, etc.

The bigger issue is more that, apparently, quite a few normal people are rallying to various False Dragon and eventually Rand alike, when they are less likely to know much about the prophecies ... and more likely to view male channelers as, basically, just as bad as Darkfriends and the Shadowspawn.

I'd find it much more convincing if folks who are not likely to turn into madmen running amok were able to offer people (false) hope that they would defeat the Dark One. And those people would be female Aes Sedai not believing/denying the prophecies and/or powerful male and female rulers who aren't channelers. It seems, for instance, that Pedron Niall thought he was such a guy.

[BLU-RAY]

Not sure if this is too much of a spoiler given the amount of foreknowledge you have, but re: Lews Therin and swords:

 

Spoiler

Lews Therin essentially invented swordfighting - one of the Forsaken, in taunting him about his skill with a sword as Rand, says something like "Do you remember when we took that tame sport called 'swords' and learned to kill with it, as the old volumes said men once had?"

 

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, BLU-RAY said:

Not sure if this is too much of a spoiler given the amount of foreknowledge you have, but re: Lews Therin and swords:

 

  Hide contents

Lews Therin essentially invented swordfighting - one of the Forsaken, in taunting him about his skill with a sword as Rand, says something like "Do you remember when we took that tame sport called 'swords' and learned to kill with it, as the old volumes said men once had?"

 

Well, then he reinvented it. Which is fine, when this is given some context. Lews Therin seems to have lived such a long life that it makes sense that he can have a couple of weird hobbies.

But I still find it weird that the Shadow War would have included much of sword-fighting when they shouldn't have really devolved into primitivism until the time of the Breaking. I mean, this is the era when Aginor created the Shadowspawn. Surely he would have needed laboratories and super technology for all that, right?

I'm comparing the situation to our world in a similar setting - we aren't magical utopia, but we do have much better weapons than swords. And I hope we would never devolve to the point where we would could swords to be great weapons against creatures like Trollocs who are going to butcher most people in hand-to-hand combat. Dealing with them is more fun if you have access to an automatic weapon.

And if I were Lews Therin and I were making a super sa'angreal then, well, I'd likely not shape it like a sword but perhaps more a machine gun or a rocket launcher or something along those lines.

Even if Jordan had laid out the war in detail and had outlined how exactly society devolved to them playing knights at the end ... Lews Therin and his peers as well as the Forsaken and Darkfriends on the other side would still remember what society they had grown up in. They would not celebrate or idolize primitivism, even if they had been brought so low as being forced to use swords and shields and ride horses because nothing else worked anymore.

Oh, and in general and to everybody:

Spoil away. I don't care about being surprised in this series, it is long over, and I know a lot of stuff already, anyway.

[fionwe1987]

They did have advanced weapons. Shocklances, they were called. We see one, or a smaller version of one, later in the series. 

But remember, they're inventing war technology from scratch, based on myth and legend. It isn't so surprising that they started with swords, then went on to projectiles, and eventually landed on energy based weapons. I don't particularly think they'd have started super advanced.

By the end of the War, production capacity was severely blunted, so I wouldn't be surprised if swords and stuff made a comeback.