The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[Derfel Cadarn]

The Dark One gave them their names - maybe they were names they had in previous incarnations as Forsaken, or maybe he just likes thise names?

Or maybe the mean things in his language, ie Sammael is creator/dark one for dickface?

Lanfear was the only one who picked her own name.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

The Forsaken pretty much unambiguously know they are the bad guys though. I don't think any one of them has any delusions about that.

Well, they view themselves as the Chosen, Ishamael was originally a philosopher, Lanfear also a great person in her field, many of the others, too. There are original dickheads among them, too, of course, the guys who switched sides during the war, the guys who joined the Shadow to live out their perversions and such ... but the consensus for them seems to be the Dark One is the good guy/is in the right and whoever sides with him does the right thing, too.

In any case, neither of those people should have been as vapid or immature to name themselves after demons from half-forgotten human religions. But this isn't really a big issue.

*Sigh*

I had completely forgotten that the girls are immediately found and captured by Liandrin and company. Yes, their mission was stupidity in the first place, but why had the author to portray them in this way? Now Rand/the guys have to save them yet again (unless they somehow escape on their own which is a possibility but not all that likely).

And how stupid are those girls? Egwene was in the Stone in the dream world. She spoke with a disguised Lanfear and got a pretty big hint that a Forsaken guy is waiting with the sword for Rand ... and that he intends to use the thirteen Black Ajah as a means to turn Rand to the Shadow.

And then that idiot girl wonders whether the High Lord disguise of Be'lal's is a fucking Darkfriend working with the Black Ajah. I mean, how stupid can these people be?

And how stupid and lazy is Jordan when basically the only means of investigation/information gathering he gives his characters are 'dreams' and stuff Moiraine does where nobody of the other characters is with her (how she figured out that Sammael is the Forsaken in Illian is completely unclear - does she have a Forsaken detector and identification kit?).

[Ninefingers]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps not ;-).

I cannot promise to get through the entire thing but one reason why I'm trying is that I want to know if Sanderon's writing is better or worse than Jordan's.

Better or worse in which way?

In general, Sanderson's prose, uh, ain't that great. His dialogue in particular tilts towards the absurd if read out loud. 

But his worldbuilding and construction tends to be top notch. Things in his world usually hang together pretty well. I'm guessing this will appeal to you because a significant number of your concerns about Jordan center around the world and actions not making sense. 

[David Selig]

21 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

But his worldbuilding and construction tends to be top notch. Things in his world usually hang together pretty well. I'm guessing this will appeal to you because a significant number of your concerns about Jordan center around the world and actions not making sense. 

Maybe in Sanderson's own books that's the case, but in his WoT books it certainly isn't. There is an awful lot of stuff that doesn't make sense and/or plainly contradicts already established info about the world, the plot and the characters.

[fionwe1987]

Lord Varys, I'll once again make the radical suggestion that you read the books before making completely needless criticisms. The only Forsaken to choose her own name was Lanfear, who named herself Daughter of the Night to show her open allegiance to the Dark One, whom she chose as a pathway to gain ultimate power.

The other Forsaken were named by the people, but embraced the names they were given. 

And should my first suggestion prove too much for you to follow, maybe you'd bother to remember what you read?

Quote

The black-clad man drew himself up arrogantly. “Once I was called Elan Morin Tedronai, but now—”

“Betrayer of Hope.” It was a whisper from Lews Therin. Memory stirred, but he turned his head, shying away from it.

“So you do remember some things. Yes, Betrayer of Hope. So have men named me, just as they named you Dragon, but unlike you I embrace the name. They gave me the name to revile me, but I will yet make them kneel and worship it. What will you do with your name? After this day, men will call you Kinslayer. What will you do with that?”

One of the first bits of information you're given is that the Forsaken are given demonic names by the people to show their revulsion. They choose from the myths and legends of the earlier Age.

The Forsaken thus didn't choose villainous names for themselves, save one, who exemplified something the Dark One prized: pure selfishness and thirst for power. 

[C.T. Phipps]

The last four or five years have convinced me that real life evil doers would love to put on iron crowns and declare themselves "The Destroyer" and many people would rush to worship them.

[fionwe1987]

8 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The last four or five years have convinced me that real life evil doers would love to put on iron crowns and declare themselves "The Destroyer" and many people would rush to worship them.

Kinda what happened in the books. The Forsaken got demonic names to show how the people hated them. They proudly wear those names and identities, and even think of themselves by those names, because they aren't exactly doing what they're doing with rose tinted glasses on. 

[Maia]

On 11/29/2021 at 12:08 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You know… I’ve been crapping on Brandon Sanderson for years mainly because of how boring “The Memory of Light” was.  Perhaps… that wasn’t Sanderson.

As far as I am concerned, most of what I dislike about the last 3 books either is an inescapable consequence of the things Jordan established earlier or comes directly from his drafts, which were seemingly treated with more reverence than they should have been. That is not to say that Sanderson isn't responsible for some of it either, and of course the relatively late decision to switch from 2 books to three didn't help either. I am not a Sanderson hater, BTW, and on the whole I felt relatively satisfied by the ending he has given us, nor do I truly believe that Jordan would have necessarily provided us with a better one. But yes, the looong battle in AMoL was pretty tiring and often boring. And the less to be said about how Rand's disagreement with Egwene was presented, the better. 

 

On 11/28/2021 at 11:30 PM, Lord Varys said:

LOL, now the girl gang is in Tear ... and what do they need? A fucking guy to do their job for them!!! That's hilarious!!! The most powerful woman in the world gives this job to three inexperienced girls - which is stupid in itself - and then they need a male sub-contractor to do their job for them?

Yea, also compare and contrast how everybody and their dog patronizes the girls and tries to restrict their agency "for their own good", while the guys are free to make their own decisions without intereference. I always thought it ridiculous  that many readers claim that WoT world is a matriarchy. Sure, the AS are on top, though quite shakily and by far not to the degree that they pretend, but even at the next level of heads of state there is more or less parity, with men holding a bit of an advantage because the military is in their hands. At the lower levels they hold even more advantage in most places. There isn't nearly the level of distrust of young men who didn't yet age out of manifesting the spark age bracket as there should have been. Etc., etc.

Oh, and regarding the Forsaken - at this point almost nobody knows that they have returned, though Mat, of course, is among those few who does. The Forsaken are confident of their ability to deal with those 3rd Agers who'd try to oppose them and they aren't wrong for the most part.

[Lord Varys]

LOL, come on, now, can it go any sillier?

Now Thom conveniently gets sick so Mat can conveniently hook up with the wise woman who was conveniently left alive by the Black Ajah.

What kind of joke is this, seriously? Jordan cannot even have proper villains. Back in TGH the Seanchan left Min alive and allowed her to visit Egwene for ... no reason. Now the Black Ajah allow a woman to live who could rat them out to enemies of the Shadow ... for no reason.

And they also allow Hurin 2.0 to live? Why???

Mat could have been given a thousand better reasons/ways to come to the conclusion he had to get inside the Stone. Most notably, there was no reason to have him go in there on his own - he could have hooked up with Moiraine and Lan, for instance.

And how stupid are those Forsaken? So Ishamael wants to kill Rand now for real - or take his soul somehow - but he only shows up to do that when the guy can claim the one thing he can use to attack and kill him???

In what scenario does this make sense? Ishamael's pawns found and attacked Rand on the way to Tear all the time. Why didn't he kill him then and there???

Be'lal's game kind of makes sense, though.

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Lord Varys, I'll once again make the radical suggestion that you read the books before making completely needless criticisms. The only Forsaken to choose her own name was Lanfear, who named herself Daughter of the Night to show her open allegiance to the Dark One, whom she chose as a pathway to gain ultimate power.

The other Forsaken were named by the people, but embraced the names they were given. 

And should my first suggestion prove too much for you to follow, maybe you'd bother to remember what you read?

One of the first bits of information you're given is that the Forsaken are given demonic names by the people to show their revulsion. They choose from the myths and legends of the earlier Age.

The Forsaken thus didn't choose villainous names for themselves, save one, who exemplified something the Dark One prized: pure selfishness and thirst for power. 

Yes, yes, okay, perhaps they didn't choose their names on their own. Big deal. Who cares? The minor point I made there is that I find it silly that they are named after real world demons. And I stand by that.

Why those morons who view themselves as 'the Chosen' would take the insulting names given to them by their enemies. I mean, 'Ishamael' may be mad, but it is kind of stupid to assume the guy actually likes to be addressed as 'Betrayer of Hope' by his underlings and colleagues.

33 minutes ago, Maia said:

Yea, also compare and contrast how everybody and their dog patronizes the girls and tries to restrict their agency "for their own good", while the guys are free to make their own decisions without intereference.

So far I don't recall any woman having the desire 'to save' or 'rescue' any of the guys ... while it is perfectly normal for Mat (and I think we should even root for him) that he races across the continent to save three young women from a clumsily conceived assassination attempt.

Three young women that is who are powerful sorcereresses and who should have little to no trouble to deal with Rahvin's red-shirt henchman #234. I mean, Mat killed that guy by ways of defeating him at dice ... How much of a danger was he, truly?

33 minutes ago, Maia said:

I always thought it ridiculous that many readers claim that WoT world is a matriarchy. Sure, the AS are on top, though quite shakily and by far not to the degree that they pretend, but even at the next level of heads of state there is more or less parity, with men holding a bit of an advantage because the military is in their hands. At the lower levels they hold even more advantage in most places. There isn't nearly the level of distrust of young men who didn't yet age out of manifesting the spark age bracket as there should have been. Etc., etc.

It looks like how a kind of weird guy/teenager in the late 20th century would imagine a kind of matriarchy ... written in a way which shows at every turn that women should not and cannot rule or tell men what to do.

That Perrin has to save Faile rather than the other way around - which could be a nicer way to establish their bond - is just another case like that.

33 minutes ago, Maia said:

Oh, and regarding the Forsaken - at this point almost nobody knows that they have returned, though Mat, of course, is among those few who does. The Forsaken are confident of their ability to deal with those 3rd Agers who'd try to oppose them and they aren't wrong for the most part.

But as I said - they really should. Our gang knows about Aginor and Belthamel and they should have known about Lanfear, too. At the very latest when Lanfear showed up to heal Rand and talk to Min at the end of TGH.

That the Forsaken may be overconfident is one thing ... but that the author has them act in exactly the same manner in three instances is just lazy on his part. Not to mention that the whole modus operandi is pretty stupid. You make yourself a target for the good guys as well as your Forsaken rivals by ruling openly. Not to mention that, quite obviously, the petty kingdoms of Rand land are not the powers you want to control. You would want to control the Seanchan, the Children of the Light, the Aes Sedai, and, especially, the Aiel.

Also, Jordan really doesn't seem to have bothered with the background of the Darkfriend infrastructure. How did Be'lal get the names of the thirteen Black Ajah he recruited? Ishamael created them while Be'lal and the others slept, so why would Ishamael hand those assets of his - as well as the names and identities of the various Darkfriends - to the other Forsaken? How does it make sense that the Darkfriends have a dozen petty kings in the Forsaken, a democratic vote structure on the Darkfriends level along with a strict hierarchy, and Ishamael as dictor effectively running things for the Dark One?

Being a Forsaken shouldn't give you magical knowledge about the Darkfriends/Black Ajah.

[Maia]

@Lord Varys:

The supergirls do try to rescue Rand, that was their reason for haring off to Falme and IIRC part of the reason for pursuing the BAs to Tear. It is just that they failed spectacularly both times. They escorted sick and dying Mat to Tar Valon, though.

I was more speaking of how random sympathetic people encountered along the way tend to berate the girls and to arrange things "for their own good", while this doesn't happen to the guys nearly as much.

As to the Forsaken, they see whether somebody is a Darkfriend at a glance, there is a mark that only they and Fain can see.  

[fionwe1987]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, yes, okay, perhaps they didn't choose their names on their own. Big deal. Who cares? The minor point I made there is that I find it silly that they are named after real world demons. And I stand by that.

Ah yes, the classic "now that I'm proved wrong, I'll claim it wasn't a big deal anyway". 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why those morons who view themselves as 'the Chosen' would take the insulting names given to them by their enemies. I mean, 'Ishamael' may be mad, but it is kind of stupid to assume the guy actually likes to be addressed as 'Betrayer of Hope' by his underlings and colleagues.

Are you just completely unfamiliar with the concepts of trolling, or reappropriation, both of which would fit here? Or do you choose to ignore them so it's easier to shit on the books?

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ah yes, the classic "now that I'm proved wrong, I'll claim it wasn't a big deal anyway". 

LOL, do I have to quote myself at you?

This is what triggered this topic of the discussion:

On 11/28/2021 at 11:30 PM, Lord Varys said:

(that idea to use scarcely disguised demon names for human characters is also pretty lazy, by the way)

Do you see the brackets there?

I don't really care much about those names, I just find it lazy as a naming choice. Just like in any other fantasy series using a fantasy world different from our own which has villains which are named after real world demons.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Maia said:

@Lord Varys:

The supergirls do try to rescue Rand, that was their reason for haring off to Falme and IIRC part of the reason for pursuing the BAs to Tear. It is just that they failed spectacularly both times. They escorted sick and dying Mat to Tar Valon, though.

Ah, yes, Rand they always try to save, of course ;-).

20 minutes ago, Maia said:

As to the Forsaken, they see whether somebody is a Darkfriend at a glance, there is a mark that only they and Fain can see.  

That is interesting, but still wouldn't help Be'lal one bit unless we assumed he was at Tar Valon and took a good look on the Aes Sedai there. Do we know that he did that?

Unless Ishamael was sharing his information the Forsaken could, at best, walk around an recruit random Darkfriends to their cause. But Rahvin, Sammael, Be'lal all seem to have more resources than just that by the time we first see them.

By the way, is it explained how they can do that? That Fain might develop the ability to sniff out folks connected to the Dark One kind of makes sense since Mordeth/mashadar deliberately targeted the Shadow with their magics.

[Lord Varys]

Finished TDR.

Man, was that an underwhelming finale. Mat actually did save the girl gang and afterwards they behave like the obnoxious, arrogant, stupid, silly little girls they are. No 'thank you', no confession that they were in danger, etc.

And then Mat - what a moron! Rand has Callandor, the war continues, and this guy still wants run away? Why? WHY??? What is the point of that? The guy just dropped the nonsense he was not doing and ran to help a bunch of ungrateful sorceress girls. He clearly does not want out. So why pretend that he does?

Also, how stupid can you be? Mat is ta'veren and one of the best friends of the Dragon Reborn. He can have power, glory, wealth beyond measure if he stands at his side. He will never be able to keep a low profile and the Shadow will just take him out sooner or later if he is on his own.

At the same time - how silly was it that the girls couldn't get out on their own. And how does it make sense that you can touch the One Power in the dream world even if you are blocked in the real world?

What a silly contrivance that two Black Ajah actually sleep - I kid you not, sleep! - in the moment of their master Be'lal's biggest triumph? Why aren't they in the hall Be'lal and the thirteen Myrddraal to await Rand and turn him? It is almost as if our author just used the Black Ajah as a silly underdeveloped plot device to get the girls to Tear ... with no intention to ever allow this plot to play out. Or give at least the impression it might lead somewhere.

Why didn't the Black Ajah forcefully convert the girls to the Shadow? They were thirteen and they had the necessary number of Myrddraals, presumably? Why did they need a Black Ajah guardian outside the cell when the blocking weave can maintain itself?

And then this silly 'the Dark One isn't dead' conversation? Those morons should have realized that 'Ba'alzamon' wasn't the Dark One's ages ago. Moiraine and others should have told Rand ages ago that the Dark One isn't some guy looking like a mad mortal man with burning eyes. Rand himself should actually know this. Also, if the Dark One was dead the Forsaken would no longer be a thing, you morons, they only live because of his power. If he were gone, they would all be dead. And, one imagines, the Darkfriends and the Shadowspawn would also be very quickly a thing of the past.

Also, what a silly idea to have Faile first stick to the gang no matter what and then decide to run away just because a Forsaken is involved?

[Gertrude]

On 11/30/2021 at 2:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't really care much about those names, I just find it lazy as a naming choice. Just like in any other fantasy series using a fantasy world different from our own which has villains which are named after real world demons.

But the point is that it isn't a different world than ours and the naming was a deliberate world-building choice. You don't have to like it, but it's not inherently lazy.

Look, I feel you and am not an ardent defender of the books, but sometimes this shit is just tiring.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Gertrude said:

But the point is that it isn't a different world than ours and the naming was a deliberate world-building choice. You don't have to like it, but it's not inherently lazy.

Look,I feel you and am not an ardent defender of the books, but sometimes this shit is just tiring.

Arda is also supposed to be our world, but Tolkien didn't feel the need to name Melkor 'Shai'tan' or Sauron 'Asmodean'.

And just as Arda doesn't *really* make sense as *our world* due to geography and other issues, the Wheel world also doesn't make sense in this capacity. At best you can take the hints in that direction as easter eggs that the Wheel world could or might be our world, but there is no real attempt made to convince us that this must be the case, is important for the setting, etc.

I must also say that I can't really buy it since I have considerable trouble believing that the discovery of the One Power and the magical tech of the Age of Legends would lead to the people giving up mundane non-magical tech completely.

Now we enter TSR territory:

And I get it why people might like that book more. It appears to be broader. We get a massive prologue featuring the Children/Fain at the border of the Two Rivers, Lady Suroth on an island, and Min at Tar Valon. We even get our first Elaida POV. The story gets bigger and that is a good thing since this story could only get better (and perhaps even 'good') if we got more perspectives and more insight into the motivations of various characters.

But there are already massive stupidity problems in the Prologue. Elaida still has no clue about Rand being the Dragon Reborn ... while fucking Suroth on her island does have reports about him. Siuan brags about how she would know immediately when the Seanchan returned because people would send her reports via carrier pigeons ... but Elaida and the Reds don't get such reports, of course, nor the many Ajahs allied with the Reds.

Also, it seems Jordan dropped the ball in the 'Aes Sedai cannot lie' department since Siuan herself tells Min that she spread the story that the girls were working on a farm. How can she do that if she cannot lie? I suggested that she could have told her non-Aes Sedai servants and spokespeople to do it when I suggested she don't tell the truth about the Black Ajah ... however, with the girls nobody but Siuan seemed to have known the truth - so how could she possibly spread that story without lying herself. Even if she figured out a way to imply it ... her sisters shouldn't be as stupid as to not realize when the Amyrlin misdirects them.

Elaida even investigated the story and followed every 'rumor' claiming this back to Siuan herself, so Siuan is actually the source of that story.

Also, Min basically foreseeing the coup and Siuan childishly and stupidly not even considering the possibility that her own sisters might turn against her, depose her, gentle and imprison her is perhaps the worst reaction to prophecy in this series so far. I had forgotten how easily the coup could have been averted at that point.

And speaking about prophecy: Siuan thinks the prophecies about the Dragon are *there* basically as propaganda? That makes no sense in context - a prophecy coming true publicly or it being fulfilled being told to the public in a convincing manner might work as propaganda ... but nobody had those prophecies or wrote them down so the Dragon Reborn would have a propaganda department when he showed up.

I also realized again why I really started to hate this series with TSR and following (also did got into book 5 to some degree).

We have only completely toxic/abusive 'romantic relationships'. Perrin risked his life saving Faile just a couple of days ago - which seemed to mark the beginning of their friendship/relationship ... and now we already have Perrin roar at Faile and Faile actually slapping Perrin for basically no reason? What kind of shit show is this? This was written in the 1990s and not the 1890s.

Also, there is literally no character development for certain characters. We are in book 4 now and if something continuously manipulates people and events it is Mr. Ta'veren Rand al'Thor (and presumably also the lesser ta'veren but in their cases we basically see zero ta'veren affects, so ... who knows?) yet people insist that evil Moiraine and her Aes Sedai manipulate people. That's just silly and factually incorrect. The ta'veren influence and rewrite the pattern (i.e. reality itself and how it is perceived) not mundane Aes Sedai - they are manipulated by the ta'veren, too.

We also get silly conflicts/motivations. Faile and Mat both want to leave Rand ... why? Because they stand a better chance against the Forsaken, Darkfriends, Shadowspawn on their own? Since they can, of course, assume that the bad guys will just accept that they are no longer Team Dragon and thus no longer legitimate targets for the Anti-God of the Universe? Of course nobody would go after them, capture them, torture them, kill them, etc. to get to Rand...

This general setting that Rand should not work with Moiraine and her Aes Sedai allies (Siuan) is just stupid. The Dragon Reborn is going to need the help of the female channelers just as much as she will need his help. The entire conflict and this irrational fear that one side will want to or has to dominate the other is just childish and stupid.

And I really cannot stomach this constant misogyny of most of the male characters who have such frail egos that they constantly view women as manipulative evil bitches. Even more so, that this is often justified as per their behavior if you think about how the girl gang acted like complete shitheads when/after Mat let them out of their cell at the end of TDR.

Jordan doesn't seem to be able to write as having a normal relationship and actually liking/loving people without an evil secret agenda, especially not women. I mean, Perrin feels pressured to stop shaving because Faile likes him with a beard. What kind of an attitude is this? Who wants to read something like that and pretend those two have a normal relationship?

The straw which broke the camel's back for me was the completely childish and infantile behavior of gentled Siuan/Leane after they escape from the White Tower. That was literally unbearable. I'm not sure if I can get beyond that.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I’m not a huge WOT fan but I do recall enjoying The Shadow Rising.

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m not a huge WOT fan but I do recall enjoying The Shadow Rising.

It might get better ... but I dimly remember a very slow beginning and a lot of Aiel stuff - who are so much like the Fremen that I cannot take them very seriously. Whenever I hear 'Rhuarc' I immediately think 'Why couldn't Jordan leave Stilgar alone.'

I guess I might enjoy some of the Seanchan, Children of the Light (sans Fain), and male channelers plots from the later books. At least they seem potentially interesting. I'm really dreading the evil Aes Sedai under Elaida, though.

[Mazzack]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, Perrin feels pressured to stop shaving because Faile likes him with a beard. What kind of an attitude is this? Who wants to read something like that and pretend those two have a normal relationship?

I don't want to do much to defend that relationship, because it is indeed pretty awful, but I also started developing a beard and stopped shaving as a result of my then-girlfriend-now-fiancee expressing a preference for me with a beard. It did feel a little bit like I was pressured at the time, but I also did not feel like it was a big deal to go along with it. I bear her no animus for it and don't really see it as a marker for an abusive relationship