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The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)


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2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

 

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

Seriously? You're complaining that I shouldn't call out what I'm reading as personal abuse coz I'm not the one being abused?
 

eta: I'm aware that abuse is a strong word and it's not really that serious, but you get the point. 

No, I do not get the point, precisely because of what you edited to add. 

Edited by fionwe1987
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Shall I edit it out again so you understand that something doesn't have to be as heavy as 'abuse' to be being a dick for no reason and that claiming the only person allowed to call it out is the person being subjected to it is... well, further being a dick? A rather common bullying tactic that I'm not sure you meant to be a bullying tactic rather than just defensiveness, but veered straight into?  


Varys isn't the only person you've been doing it too either. When Pat made a suggestion about the show's marketing in the other topic that you didn't think was likely, you went straight into hostility and needless aggression instead of just going 'nah, I don't see how or why they'd do that', and wouldn't let go even when the discussion moved on. Make like Elsa ffs. 

Edited by polishgenius
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On 11/19/2021 at 8:44 PM, fionwe1987 said:

Again, you're assuming/making up stuff. Siuan did not say it was a secret. And it isn't. It's just obscure lore from 3000 years ago. It has had zero bearing on the life of any Aes Sedai for 3000 years. Barring experts on the Dragon Reborn, why the hell would Aes Sedai Jane know or care about Callandor?

I must say you go to extremely great lengths to defend this stuff. Callandor is Rand's Excalibur. Pretty much everybody in this world seems to have heard the story of the Dragon in one version or another, and many people also know about the Dragon Reborn prophecies featuring Callandor. So basically a lot of people know about the sword.

Now, everbody actually learning something about King Arthur in our world learns what kind of a magic sword Excalibur is supposed to be, right? Where it comes from, how Arthur gets it, what happens to it, etc.

How likely is it that the Aes Sedai novices studying with the Brown Ajah at the White Tower are not taught the basic facts of the Dragon Reborn prophecies, including whatever they know about Callandor? What reason would there be to keep the whole Dragon Reborn stuff from new Aes Sedai when the Last Battle is the thing they all prepare for?

And how on earth does it make sense that the average Aes Sedai would neither know nor particularly care about the true nature of the floating sword in a an ancient fortress in a capital of this world? Yes, they cannot go there personally, perhaps, at least not openly. But they could send agents to collect data, pay off folks in the service of the High Lords of Tear, etc.

On 11/19/2021 at 8:44 PM, fionwe1987 said:

Tar Valon has a population of more than a million people. Are you seriously asking for it to have the same level and speed of word-of-mouth that a small village or town with a single or at most a few inns would have?

This is fantasy literature. It follows a certain sets of rules. If one book repeatedly states that news travel literally with light speed when you enter an inn then we should expect similar standards for a larger city in a different book. Even more so if that large city is the city of the Aes Sedai which should literally be crawling with their agents and informers and loyal fans. It is just inconceivable that Thom performs there for weeks and nobody bothers informing Elaida or the Red Ajah/Aes Sedai in general of his presence. He interfered with their affairs in an unpleasant manner, apparently, and we are given ample information that Elaida would come down on him hard if they ever met again.

It is just Jordan being a lazy/bad writer again - which is what he is. He could have had Thom perform under a different name, could have established that

On 11/19/2021 at 8:44 PM, fionwe1987 said:

All you're doing is convincing us your reading comprehension skills are spectacularly shitty. 

Actually, yours are. You come off as an obnoxious 'I know it all' here, but when poked by somebody like me you even reveal that you are not exactly as familar with the source material you pretend to be.

I'm not even sure you understand the way I'm reading this series. I don't do it as a fan trying to make sense of it all or gloss over the mistakes and errors and retcons. I highlight them, focus on them, to illustrate that this is not-exactly-good literature both in conception and execution. Your way to counter such points is not to throw lore at me, but rather to actually address the points I make and try to convince me why the particular flaw I point out isn't all that bad.

For instance, you guys did that to a point with the warder thing. I do accept that it can make sense. I still don't think it is a great idea of Jordan's to have male bodyguards for sorceresses, but I do acknowledge that having bodyguards is not necessarily a bad thing - although I still think that those things could have been combined, so the Aes Sedai were both sorceresses and warriors - sort of like the Jedi also don't need bodyguards, you know.

All the while I do enjoy this series enough to continue my take on it. There are things about it that I enjoy. I don't really hate generic fantasy settings, you know.

For instance, you didn't hear me bitch much about Perrin's TDR storyline so far. Because it is actually pretty solid so far. Things do break down a little bit with the 'Rand could stay ahead of us despite the fact that he didn't have that much of a head start and actually took his time to hang out in villages and stuff' plotline, but so far there is little to complain about there.

It was even a great scene to finally have a character consumed by the wolf thing to justify Perrin in his 'wolf anxiety' thing.

But in general all three books so far have great flaws. They repeat the same stories and plot contrivances again and again and the story, so far, leads nowhere. The evil guys have no plan, the good guys have no plan. It looks as if the wheel is starting at the same place with each novel. We have Rand go somewhere and in the end he will again show the world that he is the Dragon Reborn. What's the point of that?

And that seems to continue with Aiel when they are around.

And speaking about them:

The ripoff of the Fremen is so painfully obvious and unimaginative that it is really unbearable when the guy Perrin frees from the cage says his farewells.

As for the offtopic nonsense:

I don't care much about insults, but I still thank all who did it for putting people in their place. If you do take the time to take a look into the thread now and then I'd like it if you could occasionally offer some thoughts on some of the issue I raise. I'm autistic enough to talk to myself all day, but some kind of exchange is appreciated now and then ;-).

And, of course, you can all call me out on the real shit I'm spewing. I do all that without notes or anything, just listening on every day to the neverending audiobooks.

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Varys - main reason I don't reply is I don't have the books to hand and I can't commit to frequent debate/argument. It's mostly a "eating breakfast and this is more interesting//less depressing than the real news" reading for me.

That said - I think your critiques of the Aes Sedai are a bit off. Ishy spent quite a bit of effort specifically trying to make them less effective and less capable than they could have been. He had thousands of years (albeit not all active) to undermine the institution, which would also suffer from the same decay as any long-lived institution. I agree about the silliness and pettiness (and underlying sexism) we see on display but Jordan does try to give some explanation. I don't think that explanation fully works...but I can see it halfway.

Cannot wait to see you get to the circus.

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RE: Warders

Another thing to remember is that Aes Sedai are pretty restricted in when they can use their channeling. Namely only when in defence of their life or their Warder, or against the Shadow. There is a scene later on where a bunch of Aes Sedai have to get up close in a battle because they have to actually put themselves at risk before Three Oaths lets them intervene. 

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46 minutes ago, Galactus said:

RE: Warders

Another thing to remember is that Aes Sedai are pretty restricted in when they can use their channeling. Namely only when in defence of their life or their Warder, or against the Shadow. There is a scene later on where a bunch of Aes Sedai have to get up close in a battle because they have to actually put themselves at risk before Three Oaths lets them intervene. 

Yes, I know that. But in TGH Siuan basically establishes that the Aes Sedai can weave wind to immobilize people. This basically means you can and should use the One Power as a means to stop folks from fighting without using it as a weapon. That should basically settle the entire problem to no small degree. Basically the Aes Sedai could have immobilized the entire Aiel army, Hawkwing's forces, you name it. The enemy would have channelers of their own - Shadowlords, Wise Women for the Aiel - to do something about that.

But, man, now I had to listen to that stupid scene where the three girls are knocked out at once by a bunch of Darkfriend bandits in Cairhien. How silly and badly written is that scene? Yes, you can be knocked out in a surprise attack. But how likely is it - and how well-written and believable is a scene - where this happens to three powerful sorceresses in a matter of seconds?

Not only destroys this any credence the author established earlier for Nynaeve as a ranger/tracker woman, but it also hinges on the silly assumption that those guys got close enough to the girls to realize that they were all Aes Sedai. Those rings aren't that big, are they?

This is a clear sign the author got caught up in his own rules and has to resort to silly contrivances to create fake tension. It is like J.K. Rowling having Dumbledore or Snape or Voldemort be knocked out (all the time) by Muggles because, technically, you can knock out a wizard/witch and steal their wands if you are quick enough.

I'm also not sure why the Aes Sedai shouldn't be able to get around the 'don't use the One Power as a weapon' oath the same way they do with the oath against lying. Say, why not just wanting to, you know, use the one power to create a big hole ten feet from you - it's not your fault if somebody stands close enough to the hole to tumble into it. Or you want to make a camp fire - not your problem that it is rather close to a person who might burn.

On 11/21/2021 at 10:01 AM, Lightning Lord said:

Varys - main reason I don't reply is I don't have the books to hand and I can't commit to frequent debate/argument. It's mostly a "eating breakfast and this is more interesting//less depressing than the real news" reading for me.

That's completely fine ;-). I just wanted to invite folks who bother reading this thing to contribute since I realized that it really seems a lot of people are actually reading this.

On 11/21/2021 at 10:01 AM, Lightning Lord said:

That said - I think your critiques of the Aes Sedai are a bit off. Ishy spent quite a bit of effort specifically trying to make them less effective and less capable than they could have been. He had thousands of years (albeit not all active) to undermine the institution, which would also suffer from the same decay as any long-lived institution.

Hm, I wonder ... does it make sense that the Black Ajah - and Ishamael himself, for that matter - would truly want to undermine the Aes Sedai? I mean, seriously, if you are Black Ajah - why not try to take over the order and use the full power of that channeler organization for your own gain ... and that of the Shadow?

Undermine their ability to deal with the Shadow - sure, there misdirection and stalling and outright sabotage makes sense - but in the mundane political field the Black Ajah should have ensured the Aes Sedai grow more powerful than less powerful, especially where real political power is concerned. Because that could then, in the end, be usurped and turned to the advantage of the Shadow during/shortly before the Last Battle.

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My understanding: Killing people with the One Power is relatively easy (people break) immobilizing them with air takes a bit more finesse. Its an option in relatively small numbers but you cant really immobilize an army the way you can blow them up. (and thats before you get into the varying strength of Aes Sedai when it comes to AIr, or any of a number of other limiting factors) I dont think we see anyone immobilizing more than a handful of people at a time? 

Also, the way the Oaths work they are to some extent, dependant on what the Aes Sedai themselves think, so eg. the Oath against lying does not actually prevent you from "speaking a word untrue", just deliberately doing so. So your ability to hedge around the no-weapon rule is dependant on the Aes Sedai in question being able to fudge it in her own head. (which yes, gives a paranoid sister more options, presumably)

 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But how likely is it - and how well-written and believable is a scene - where this happens to three powerful sorceresses in a matter of seconds?

If only these silly girls had warders ...

 

But yeah, there is some definite silliness in the books. I enjoyed the books for the most part, but it was by slipping past the parts that made me give it the side-eye and focusing on the good stuff.

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I must say, reading this thread gave me some rather serious flashbacks from my own time with TWoT. My own journey stopped at TST, I managed to get through it but never picked TFoH up, probably due to sheer exhaustion caused by these books (to be fair it’s my fault to a degree, I just read too much of it too fast).

As far as my experience goes, TDR was definitely my favourite book. Jordan made some interesting narrative choices there, like dropping Rand effectively entirely as a character reader interacts with, and when he occasionally popped up he was clearly going batshit crazy. I really dig that, Jordan was clearly capable of thinking of some creative ways to tell his story, a shame he wasn’t as creative more often.

I would be inclined to agree with a lot of @Lord Varys wrote here, mainly with characters being uncannily stupid and acting, at times, as if they were completely braindead. How in Lord’s name nobody was able to figure out that Ishamael aka Ba’alzamon is NOT the Dark One – I mean Rand ESPECIALLY – is just beyond me, it makes zero sense and cheapens the heroes by portraying them as unable to draw simplest of conclusions. Retcons are, like, bad as well, and I bothered me A LOT how the big God damn battle at the end of the first book, which featured A BEING MADE OF FIRE AND LIGHT WHICH OBLITERATED THE SHADOWSPAWN ARMY made NO IMPACT whatsoever upon the world at large. It’s, as was often pointed out in this thread, just silly. Worldbuilding overall have some problems, and they were most glaring for me in TEotW. I mean, I’m a rather grown man (not yet 30 though) and so on, perhaps that’s why a lot of the setup done in TEotW looked like children’s book to me. And not in a good way. Women’s Circle for God’s sake, what is even going on with this? Ah yes, women do pull the strings from behind men’s backs, better not step up on those toes! Jesus Christ in Heaven, it was just childish in the way it was portrayed, and by that I mean that it looked like a fanfic written by a teenager. When you think about it, most of TEotW when it comes to consequences of events which took place was if not outright retconned then diminished to the point of being nonconsequential. I do know that at least to a point it was by design: Jordan wanted to do a Tolkienesque story and then explore the more realistic outcomes in the next books. It’s a nice premise and I don’t have a problem with that, but judging by things turned out I guess idea got a little bit out of control (to put it mildly). Next instalments do have these kind of problems as well – I mean, the Great Hunt is just a moronic idea nobody should take part in honestly. What the hell, folks just WANDER AROUND THE WHOLE CONTINENT looking for something which can be anywhere? … What? The game of houses in Cairhien is portrayed in a way which makes me doubt sanity of people who live in this world and at the same time makes me doubt if Jordan was an adult when he wrote these books, or if he ever read some real history (European or Chinese preferably, in this context).

There are some writing issues as well, but in this case I would be beating a dead horse I’m afraid. These books really suffer from ‘chroniclosis’. It was not a word before this post so I feel honoured contributing to the development of English language… It’s just that Jordan really writes in a way so reader feels that he follows every character’s every move, every hour of every day. Jordan did not develop ability to skip time, and that’s part of the reason why these books are so abhorrently bloated, and from what I read about the further instalments it only gets worse. That’s why ‘chroniclosis’ – it reads at times more like a Medieval chronicle, not a novel.

That’s all from me. I’m hopeful that you’ll continue your hating @Lord Varys, I enjoy reading it.

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20 hours ago, Galactus said:

My understanding: Killing people with the One Power is relatively easy (people break) immobilizing them with air takes a bit more finesse. Its an option in relatively small numbers but you cant really immobilize an army the way you can blow them up. (and thats before you get into the varying strength of Aes Sedai when it comes to AIr, or any of a number of other limiting factors) I dont think we see anyone immobilizing more than a handful of people at a time? 

I'd expect it to not be necessarily that easy, but certainly doable, one imagines, if Tar Valon is attacked and you have angreals and sa'angreals to support you.

20 hours ago, Galactus said:

Also, the way the Oaths work they are to some extent, dependant on what the Aes Sedai themselves think, so eg. the Oath against lying does not actually prevent you from "speaking a word untrue", just deliberately doing so. So your ability to hedge around the no-weapon rule is dependant on the Aes Sedai in question being able to fudge it in her own head. (which yes, gives a paranoid sister more options, presumably)

Well, with the oath about only telling the truth, it is quite clear that you can still lie and misdirect. To do that, you have to know and intend to deceive a person, so with the lying vow you get around it.

In the same way the crucial thing of the 'not use the One Power as a weapon' oath should be your intention not to use it as a weapon. If you use it as a tool, say, then everything should be fine. I don't know yet if you can fry people's minds with the One Power, but if you could and I were to imagine myself to be a mind surgeon then I could likely turn somebody into a vegetable without ever so much thinking I was using it as a weapon.

To use the One Power as a weapon would mean to use it with the intention to kill and injure, and that's something you could keep out of your mind if you were to direct the power at structures or things close to people. At least I expect that this should be possible in light of how you get around the oath against lying.

20 hours ago, Gertrude said:

If only these silly girls had warders ...

Well, if you take the scene as such, then they wouldn't have helped there at all. They would have been six people, and all six would have been knocked out in a matter of seconds ... if the author willed it so.

I mean, the situation there is made even worse by the later revelation that Aviendha was there, 100 yards (or something like that) away from them and Egwene is shocked that they didn't realize she was there.

But those fucking bandits must have been much closer since they saw their rings which triggered their surprise attack. If they had just seen three girls they may not have attacked them ... or they wouldn't have knocked them out immediately because mundane girls are no powerful sorceresses. But they did, so they must have been close enough to recognize them as Aes Sedai ... while the girls didn't see their attack coming at all.

Other silliness I had completely forgotten which caused me to nearly lose my mind when listening to it recently:

Remember that Perrin overhears some Ishamael-Lanfear dream world talk? Turns out this is the first time - the fucking first time, I kid you not! - that the good guys actually think Lanfear is out and about. There was a fucking prophecy about her in book 2, the mysterious Selene woman sucking up to Rand and later Mat was there, she showed up at the end of TGH to heal Rand and basically spilled the beans about who and what she is to Min - who was FUCKING RIGHT THERE ... and then nobody knows about all that???

Min spends weeks and months with Rand and Moiraine at the camp ... and they not once talk or mention Selene and figure out who she is? What kind of silliness is that??? In book 3, two books after the entire gang encountered Aginor and Balthamel, they still wonder whether the Forsaken are on the loose?

Other thing that's not that silly but still stupid:

We have the girls talk about societal rules. That is interesting ... but it never leads them to question their own societal rules in a deep or meaningful way. And then it only reinforces and strengthens traditional gender roles by making it perfectly clear that women *cannot possibly* be warriors and have sex (leading to childbirth) at the same time. Such a pity that Rand or Lan still can get an erection after they became warriors...

Insofar as character development is concerned:

I kid you not, in book 3 Mat is still the same stupid, obnoxious guy he was as a dagger-befuddled guy in book 1. He complains, yet again, that he has slept too often in stables or under hedges, insisting - like he did with Rand when they were on the run from Shadowspawn and Darkfriends (which Mat is basically yet again) - that they must sleep in proper inns.

Then the guy has the braindead audacity to assume that his weirdo luck at playing dice will last forever, basically behaving like a moron who insists the stock market can only go up. 'I can always get money as long as I have my dice.' NO, MORON, YOU DON'T! YOU ONLY GET MONEY AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE TO HAVE LUCK! YOU CANNOT CONTROL THIS, STUPID!

And, finally, the author burns paragraphs and pages, wasting his own time and our own with Thom and Mat finding a place to sleep ... when that was completely unnecessary since nobody guarded the fucking stable they sleep in which is confirmed when another person just sneaks in with her things.

I mean, it really cannot get worse than that, can it?

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

I must say, reading this thread gave me some rather serious flashbacks from my own time with TWoT. My own journey stopped at TST, I managed to get through it but never picked TFoH up, probably due to sheer exhaustion caused by these books (to be fair it’s my fault to a degree, I just read too much of it too fast).

I think then we have a very similar experience. I tried to read the first book about twenty years ago and never got through, but then I tried the audio book thing once and I also only got through book 4, I think, and not that far into book 5.

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

As far as my experience goes, TDR was definitely my favourite book. Jordan made some interesting narrative choices there, like dropping Rand effectively entirely as a character reader interacts with, and when he occasionally popped up he was clearly going batshit crazy. I really dig that, Jordan was clearly capable of thinking of some creative ways to tell his story, a shame he wasn’t as creative more often.

I'd still think that 'The Dragon Reborn' is a very bad title for a book which doesn't really feature said reborn Dragon in a meaningful capacity. It doesn't even bother much exploring what it means to be the Dragon nor how the Reborn Dragon affects the larger world. There is a little bit about the cult of the Dragon in the first chapters of the book ... and then that's all dropped or ignored.

Rand's madness is an interesting aspect of that book, yes, but this seems to be something Jordan dropped in the later books where Rand is clearly less mad than in TDR. In fact, we do have a scene in that book where Rand butchers an entire group of people who did not, in fact, attack him first nor do we as readers get confirmation that they actually wanted to attack him. The only indication that they may have been 'evil' is that one of them had a dagger in their hand - but having a dagger isn't a crime nor is it strange to draw said dagger if a mad youth with a flaming sword in his hand beheads and butchers all your companions...

I think Jordan still thought the Last Battle was right around the corner when writing TDR, explaining why he got mad Rand there.

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

I would be inclined to agree with a lot of @Lord Varys wrote here, mainly with characters being uncannily stupid and acting, at times, as if they were completely braindead. How in Lord’s name nobody was able to figure out that Ishamael aka Ba’alzamon is NOT the Dark One – I mean Rand ESPECIALLY – is just beyond me, it makes zero sense and cheapens the heroes by portraying them as unable to draw simplest of conclusions.

LOL, yeah. Somebody should have spanked that truth into Random the Moron. I've lost count how often he claims he killed 'the Dark One'.

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

Retcons are, like, bad as well, and I bothered me A LOT how the big God damn battle at the end of the first book, which featured A BEING MADE OF FIRE AND LIGHT WHICH OBLITERATED THE SHADOWSPAWN ARMY made NO IMPACT whatsoever upon the world at large. It’s, as was often pointed out in this thread, just silly.

Yes, this is why I really have trouble understanding how people can like this series. I mean, didn't they see that or don't they actual care about basic narrative consistency.

This is like Daenerys suddenly having no dragons at the beginning of ACoK or the War of the Five King starting all over again in ACoK because everybody forgot about the fighting in the Riverlands.

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

Worldbuilding overall have some problems, and they were most glaring for me in TEotW. I mean, I’m a rather grown man (not yet 30 though) and so on, perhaps that’s why a lot of the setup done in TEotW looked like children’s book to me. And not in a good way. Women’s Circle for God’s sake, what is even going on with this? Ah yes, women do pull the strings from behind men’s backs, better not step up on those toes! Jesus Christ in Heaven, it was just childish in the way it was portrayed, and by that I mean that it looked like a fanfic written by a teenager. When you think about it, most of TEotW when it comes to consequences of events which took place was if not outright retconned then diminished to the point of being nonconsequential. I do know that at least to a point it was by design: Jordan wanted to do a Tolkienesque story and then explore the more realistic outcomes in the next books. It’s a nice premise and I don’t have a problem with that, but judging by things turned out I guess idea got a little bit out of control (to put it mildly).

I think the general idea of gender apartheid as they very much have it could be an interesting concept ... if not executed in the way he did it.

But as I ranted on in multiple posts I don't buy that gender relations in this world fit with how this world should be after man basically destroyed the world. We would have a world where women openly run things to a much higher degree and where women are generally viewed as the stronger, saner sex. Men would view it in a similar way, both because they would be raised to believe this and because they would actually experience the madness of male channelers.

Instead, we get women being clichéd women who do have too plot behind the scenes. That they also laugh behind men's back about them in their women-only circles doesn't exactly establish that they have a prominent role in overall society.

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

Next instalments do have these kind of problems as well – I mean, the Great Hunt is just a moronic idea nobody should take part in honestly. What the hell, folks just WANDER AROUND THE WHOLE CONTINENT looking for something which can be anywhere? … What?

I actually thought there would be something to that hunt. That there would be clues. Having a book named 'The Great Hunt' after the fucking horn has been found in the book before that one ... and then has to be stolen in a silly way completely destroys the entire premise for that book.

Not to mention that the Horn of Valere itself seems to be a stupid thing which is not actually important for the overall plot. Not to mention that the rules around it are constantly changed. Even in TGH it is silly that Hawkwing tells us he is now going to fight for 'Lews Therin' - Mat blew to Horn, so why don't they fight for Mat? Mat could tell them to fight for Rand, but if the horn's only purpose is to call folks to fight for 'Lews Therin' ... then why the hell don't the evil guys try to destroy the thing??? They cannot possibly use it for the Shadow, right?

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

The game of houses in Cairhien is portrayed in a way which makes me doubt sanity of people who live in this world and at the same time makes me doubt if Jordan was an adult when he wrote these books, or if he ever read some real history (European or Chinese preferably, in this context).

Oh, yes, that was utter stupidity. At times it feels like a five-year-old chimpanzee wrote 'the game of houses' plotline at Cairhien.

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

There are some writing issues as well, but in this case I would be beating a dead horse I’m afraid. These books really suffer from ‘chroniclosis’. It was not a word before this post so I feel honoured contributing to the development of English language… It’s just that Jordan really writes in a way so reader feels that he follows every character’s every move, every hour of every day. Jordan did not develop ability to skip time, and that’s part of the reason why these books are so abhorrently bloated, and from what I read about the further instalments it only gets worse. That’s why ‘chroniclosis’ – it reads at times more like a Medieval chronicle, not a novel.

From what I recall he cannot really start a novel or continue it - every beginning has the characters not doing anything for ages. That started with Fal Dara and continued in TDR and is even worse when they spent ages doing nothing at Tear in book 4.

15 hours ago, Lessingham said:

That’s all from me. I’m hopeful that you’ll continue your hating @Lord Varys, I enjoy reading it.

Just to be clear, I don't want to hate this. If there is something coming around the corner that I really like, I'll say that, too.

Edited by Lord Varys
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I'm closing in on the end of TDR ... and so far I've little to complain about. The plotline of Postman Mat continues to be a silly plotline ... but the execution isn't that bad. Although as the author continues to prattle on about Mat's memory problems revolving around Caemlyn and other things in his sick state his whole clear memory stint involving Elayne and her brothers gets all the more silly.

The arrival in Illian and the revelation about the weirdo plotting among the Darkfriends involving different Forsaken and their agendas is actually not portrayed in a bad manner - although we get our 100th repetitive inn scene there. Still, the way they figure out that different factions are involved does make sense.

I guess from the Darkfriend attack on Mat and Thom done in an identical manner by identical Darkfriends (presumably from the Jordan Darkfriend Cloning Facility (TM)) were are to 'conclude' that Mad Rand didn't actually butcher innocents left and right who showed up at his campfire.

Seriously ... how can so many people be so stupid as to attack in this clumsy manner pretty much all the time? And how the hell do those morons find the location of their targets but fail to actually bring a Forsaken or a Shadowlord or a Black Ajah or even a Myrddraal or a bunch of Trollocs?

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45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Seriously ... how can so many people be so stupid as to attack in this clumsy manner pretty much all the time? And how the hell do those morons find the location of their targets but fail to actually bring a Forsaken or a Shadowlord or a Black Ajah or even a Myrddraal or a bunch of Trollocs?

Have you seen the state of the real world? People being unbelievably stupid is extremely realistic, and I'd expect the ones willing to pledge themselves to the Dark One would largely not be the sharpest knives in the drawer. Low level Darkfriends wouldn't know about any previous attacks elsewhere on the continent, and probably wouldn't have any way to summon Forsaken etc; they'd just have standing orders to follow. Their usual methods of passing on gathered intelligence would be too slow for something time-critical like this.

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22 minutes ago, felice said:

Have you seen the state of the real world? People being unbelievably stupid is extremely realistic, and I'd expect the ones willing to pledge themselves to the Dark One would largely not be the sharpest knives in the drawer. Low level Darkfriends wouldn't know about any previous attacks elsewhere on the continent, and probably wouldn't have any way to summon Forsaken etc; they'd just have standing orders to follow. Their usual methods of passing on gathered intelligence would be too slow for something time-critical like this.

Okay, then let's phrase it differently:

What author is so stupid as to have two groups of evil satanists attack the good twice in exactly the same manner? That just shows how limited Jordan's imagination and/or how lazy he is when he writes a scene.

Nobody complains about an attack in the middle of nowhere ... but doing it in exactly the same manner is just silly.

Or just think aboit Loial's books burning in the inn at Cairhien ... only to him having his books again in many later scenes, presumably not just because Jordan forgot that he destroyed his books but also because he cannot imagine the Ogier doing anything else.

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LOL, now the girl gang is in Tear ... and what do they need? A fucking guy to do their job for them!!! That's hilarious!!! The most powerful woman in the world gives this job to three inexperienced girls - which is stupid in itself - and then they need a male sub-contractor to do their job for them?

What are they good for, then? What can they do on their own? Why didn't the Amyrlin herself not just hire Hurin 2.0? He could have sent her a letter when he found the women.

And Elayne slapping Egwene? What shit is this? First the perverse unconsensual spanking shit and now it is normal behavior among friends to slap each other if you think somebody stepped out of line? What kind of freak show is this?

And when exactly are Perrin and Mat beating up misbehaving Rand or each other when they step out of line? In fact, when exactly is somebody spanking some sense into the boys? I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen ... but if it does, and if women are going to be the ones doing the spanking they will pay tenfold for this unnatural insolence. Most likely they will be raped. That's just a hunch on my part, though.

Also, it is really hilarious how unimaginative and lazy Jordan as an author is. We get three new Forsaken in TDR - Sammael, Rahvin, and Be'lal (that idea to use scarcely disguised demon names for human characters is also pretty lazy, by the way) - and what do they do? All three have the very smart and very unique idea to disguise themselves as guys nobody ever heard of and take over the ruling body of a kingdom (quite literally, in Morgase's case). What is this? I mean, have one of them do that, fine, and perhaps even two can be sold to us as being this stupid. But three??? Please. Nobody is going to find it odd that people coming from nowhere are suddenly very powerful, especially not those who actually know that the Forsaken are a thing. The way to do that shit is to either impersonate a person already in power or to rule from the shadows in such a way that your very mysterious existence isn't a rumor circulating on the streets.

Then we have Mat overhearing Rahvin directing an underling - and he is styled 'Great Master' by that underling. Mat also sees how Rahvin in his guise as Lord Gaebril very much controls Morgase. Mat was also RIGHT THERE when the Forsaken Aginor and Balthamel showed their ugly carcasses in the first book. The stupid boy knows that the Forsaken are real and that the Forsaken are out and about.

But does it cross his mind that the Gaebril fellow might, perhaps, be one of those guys? That this might perhaps explain how quickly he could take over Andor and turn the queen into his little pet? No, of course not. The silly boy doesn't even consider such a possibility.

Instead he and his buddies decide that rumors about Gaebril being an evil ambitious prick are going to topple him. Right. And orphans singing hymns are going to defeat the Dark One and bring about world peace.

Also, for the guys who criticized my take on the clear class distinctions between Egwene/Nynaeve and Elayne. Jordan does pull those out of his arse when it suits him, e.g. when Rahvin's man blocked Mat's entrance into the castle and dressed him down as the peasant that he is. We should expect this kind of thing more often from people with Elayne's background as well as people coming from big cities who look down on backwater peasants. And vice versa - folks who never left their backwater village should keep their mouths shut and look at their feet when better bred, better educated, better informed, and more powerful people are talking.

Somebody like Nynaeve trying to shit on people should learn their place in the larger world very quickly. But they don't because the author isn't interested in presenting a realistic coherent setting.

Also, the entirely silly 'Mat has to sneak into the royal palace' plotline was stupid and superficial. The guy at the gate behaved like a complete moron, and Mat could have overheard stuff just as well if he had just shown up as the official postman that he was.

This book would have been a lot better if people had actually done certain things together - Mat travelling with the girls, say - rather then them ending up at the same place for completely arbitrary and stupid reasons.

Edited by Lord Varys
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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, now the girl gang is in Tear ... and what do they need? A fucking guy to do their job for them!!! That's hilarious!!! The most powerful woman in the world gives this job to three inexperienced girls - which is stupid in itself - and then they need a male sub-contractor to do their job for them?

What are they good for, then? What can they do on their own? Why didn't the Amyrlin herself not just hire Hurin 2.0? He could have sent her a letter when he found the women.

And Elayne slapping Egwene? What shit is this? First the perverse unconsensual spanking shit and now it is normal behavior among friends to slap each other if you think somebody stepped out of line? What kind of freak show is this?

And when exactly are Perrin and Mat beating up misbehaving Rand or each other when they step out of line? In fact, when exactly is somebody spanking some sense into the boys? I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen ... but if it does, and if women are going to be the ones doing the spanking they will pay tenfold for this unnatural insolence. Most likely they will be raped. That's just a hunch on my part, though.

Also, it is really hilarious how unimaginative and lazy Jordan as an author is. We get three new Forsaken in TDR - Sammael, Rahvin, and Be'lal (that idea to use scarcely disguised demon names for human characters is also pretty lazy, by the way) - and what do they do? All three have the very smart and very unique idea to disguise themselves as guys nobody ever heard of and take over the ruling body of a kingdom (quite literally, in Morgase's case). What is this? I mean, have one of them do that, fine, and perhaps even two can be sold to us as being this stupid. But three??? Please. Nobody is going to find it odd that people coming from nowhere are suddenly very powerful, especially not those who actually know that the Forsaken are a thing. The way to do that shit is to either impersonate a person already in power or to rule from the shadows in such a way that your very myterious existence isn't a rumor floating around on the streets.

Then we have Mat overhearing Rahvin directing an underling - and he is styled 'Great Master' by that underling. Mat also sees how Rahvin in his guise as Lord Gaebril very much controls Morgase. Mat was also RIGHT THERE when the Forsaken Aginor and Balthamel showed their ugly carcasses in the first book. The stupid boy knows that the Forsaken are real and that the Forsaken are out and about.

But does it cross his mind that the Gaebril fellow might, perhaps, be one of those guys? That this might perhaps explain how quickly he could take over Andor and turn the queen into his little pet? No, of course not. The silly boy doesn't even consider such a possibility.

Instead he and his buddies decide that rumors about Gaebril being an evil ambitious prick are going to topple him. Right. And orphans singing hymns are going to defeat the Dark One and bring about world peace.

Also, for the guys who criticized my take on the clear class distinctions between Egwene/Nynaeve and Elayne. Jordan does pull those out of his arse when it suits him, e.g. when Rahvin's man blocked Mat's entrance into the castle and dressed him down as the peasant that he is. We should expect this kind of thing more often from people with Elayne's background as well as people coming from big cities who look down on backwater peasants. And vice versa - folks who never left their backwater village should keep their mouths shut and look at their feet when better bred, better educated, better informed, and more powerful people are talking.

Somebody like Nynaeve trying to shit at people should learn their place in the larger world very quickly. But they don't because the author isn't interested in presenting a realistic coherent setting.

Also, the entirely silly 'Mat has to sneak into the royal palace' plotline was stupid and superficial. The guy at the gate behaved like a complete moron, and Mat could have overheard stuff just as well if he had just shown up as the official postman that he was.

This book would have been a lot better if people had actually done certain things together - Mat travelling with the girls, say - rather then them ending up at the same for completely arbitrary and stupid reasons.

You know… I’ve been crapping on Brandon Sanderson for years mainly because of how boring “The Memory of Light” was.  Perhaps… that wasn’t Sanderson.

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4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You know… I’ve been crapping on Brandon Sanderson for years mainly because of how boring “The Memory of Light” was.  Perhaps… that wasn’t Sanderson.

Perhaps not ;-).

I cannot promise to get through the entire thing but one reason why I'm trying is that I want to know if Sanderon's writing is better or worse than Jordan's.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We get three new Forsaken in TDR - Sammael, Rahvin, and Be'lal (that idea to use scarcely disguised demon names for human characters is also pretty lazy, by the way)

Well, when you've decided to go with Shaitan as the Dark One, then demon names are right in line. I don't think this was lazy, but rather a choice to connect our world (first age) and the subsequent ones. Like the stories of Mosk and Merk, Elsbet, the Queen of All, Len flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle, etc.

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1 minute ago, Gertrude said:

Well, when you've decided to go with Shaitan as the Dark One, then demon names are right in line. I don't think this was lazy, but rather a choice to connect our world (first age) and the subsequent ones. Like the stories of Mosk and Merk, Elsbet, the Queen of All, Len flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle, etc.

Shai'tan for the evil guy is also not *exactly* a great idea, either, especially not as the guy's true name. If it was one of the many aliases of the Evil One the good guys have from him and we were to pretend the world of the Wheel is a future/past version of our own world then it could work to a point, I guess.

From what we know the Forsaken/Chosen chose their own new names after their conversion, right? Since they do not view themselves as evil/villains they would, presumably, also not pick names that were associated with evil. Meaning they would pick names associated with goodness and greatness, not evil and depravity.

If the Dark One were the guy introducing himself with 'Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm Shai'tan and I'm the hero in this story...' then, well, folks still having access to lore from our world identifying shaitan as not exactly a good force would raise their eyebrows and wonder whether it is a good thing to hook up with that person.

As names to curse and condemn the evil guys demonic names would make sense, especially since the Dark One's existence, etc. would have eventually caused people to think that the old religions may have had a point, after all.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

From what we know the Forsaken/Chosen chose their own new names after their conversion, right? Since they do not view themselves as evil/villains they would, presumably, also not pick names that were associated with evil. Meaning they would pick names associated with goodness and greatness, not evil and depravity.

I assumed the relationship goes in the opposite direction - the demon names we know are the last remnants of stories of the Forsaken from the distant past, and even those are long forgotten by the age when the new Forsaken take their names. It's the whole Wheel thing.

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