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The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)


Lord Varys

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Also, there needs to be a TV Tropes page or something for posters frustrated that teenage characters are stupid. Ummm... Duh? And are you under the impression you were super clever as a teenager?

I was no Mat, but I've definitely mouthed off and done stupid things when meeting new people, especially when I was in a strange country, because suddenly there's no one to tell me off if I do wrong. 

And Moiraine isn't a mom. She's actually pretty inept at dealing with teenagers, and that's why the teenagers she finds all end up going off on their own very quickly. She's not Gandalf. She's not a moron, but she's out of her depth when it comes to dealing with clueless teenagers. Once their awe of her wears of, they go do their own things, sometimes stupid, sometimes not. 

This isn't weird to me, or bad writing. I mean, people do stupid things. Sometimes mind numbingly stupid. And especially for a bunch of teenagers with no sense of the true dangers ahead of them, it's entirely normal to blunder into things. It would be unreal if they didn't do stupid things. 

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Much worse is the entire episode in Shadar Logoth - in what universe does it make sense that the gang goes into that haunted place and Moiraine does not immediately - immediately! - warn them what's going on in that place and that neither of them go alone or in groups out exploring?! And how could they even leave the place they were staying without the others noticing? Nynaeve and Lan are both supposed to be those great trackers but they don't realize that a bunch of boys go away?

You may remember that Moiraine was exhausted from recently fighting a few thousand Trollocs, and was talking to Nynaeve about getting some herbs to help her get some restful sleep?

The boys went to a back room, and got out through an alternate entrance. I didn't realize that being good at tracking meant you had omniscient awareness of doorways beyond your line of sight. Correct me if I'm wrong?

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1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

This doesn't make much sense, given how you write about the books, though. You point out things as flaws that are not, based on a fuller reading of the books. You do have a half-assed understanding of some things, but since you haven't read the books, they are, as I said, half-assed. You then project that half-assed understanding as the ground truth in the books, and call them badly written, and to state, as you did in the other thread, that you can only enjoy the books if you were a young and inexperienced reader... All of which is anything but an honest discussion of differing tastes. 

If you want to do what you claim you're going for, you can ask for instance "hey do we ever figure out how Ishamael was only half sealed"? But if you go in with "I've never read the books, but I'm going to assume this is never explained, so see, this book is shit, I'm right to hate it", that isn't about triggering a discussion. That's about you trying to justify your dislike for the books, and doing a shitty job of it.

So where did you get your information on Balefire from? Can't be the books, since you stopped reading them around book 3, you said?

:rolleyes: You asked why Mat was so stupid with the Whitecloaks. You seem to be proving that it is human nature to be much more stupid than even Mat was there. Seems to me Jordan had a better grasp of how people work than you do?

 

This. Thanks. I don't get why someone would post a detailed analysis of books they barely understand let alone, from what I saw in the tv show thread, seem to viciously hate. It just seems like "well I guess I'll read this crap you losers like so you can hear my super expert smart opinion".

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My issue with this is pretty simple. I'd like to have concrete examples when how the Aes Sedai influenced things in a bad or shady manner. Possible example would include the downfall of popular monarchs/rulers or entire dynasties, political decisions which led to economical or military disasters (lost wars or famines), etc. Especially one would need, I think, examples where the Two Rivers were actually suffering from a development they could blame on the Aes Sedai or the White Tower.

Being an isolated place, the people of the Two Rivers mainly experience the world through the rumors and tales that merchants and peddlers bring. On top of that, they live through old traditions of which they don't know the origin. (But we may know) The people of the TR are descendants of Manetheren. Well, one monumental Aes Sedai fuck up was their failure to help Manethern in the hour of need, leading to to that nation's destruction. 

(One thing I like in RJs writings, which reflects how stories can be twisted across time and space, is the little montages he writes of how an event gains various causes and conclusions, depending on who tells the story and where)

Another more recent fuck up that led to another nation's collapse was not helping Malkier. Doesn't Lan ask Moiraine in New Spring why the White Tower didn't come to Malkier's aid?

In Artur Hawkwing's time, thanks to Ishamael, the Aes Sedai were hunted. Ishamael influenced Hawkwing to hate the Aes Sedai to the point that he besieged Tar Valon and I believe had bounties on Aes Sedai heads. While some of the nations that emerged from Hawkwing's empire took a different direction, becoming friendly with Aes Sedai, others were less interested. 

The Whitecloaks spread their own anti-Aes Sedai propaganda wherever people are willing to listen. 

But ultimately, the distrust and fear people often exhibit towards Aes Sedai comes from the biggest fuck up, the Breaking of the World. Lews Therin and all the male channelers were Aes Sedai, too. The women may not have gone insane at the time, but they still wield a power few others can or even understand. It is the fear of the unknown. This is what forced the female Aes Sedai to place themselves under OP binding Oaths.  

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I am really curious why anyone goes about hate reading a series. I don't want to disparage a hobby, but do people find pleasure in forcing themselves through something they dislike?

Anyway, I think Jordan can be fairly criticized for often poorly written characters and a highly juvenile approach to gender relations, etc. (although the premise is interesting enough). But he deserves a lot of credit for his intricate plotting and many subtleties. The man was very intelligent, and I think he shines in this area.

I still don't understand why anyone who hasn't completed this sprawling work would attempt a debate on these matters with hard-core fans. 

Why not find another series that you actually like? Life is really short, you won't get to everything even if you tried. Might as well not focus on what you view as the chaff.

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Just now, IFR said:

I am really curious why anyone goes about hate reading a series. I don't want to disparage a hobby, but do people find pleasure in forcing themselves through something they dislike?

Anyone, I think Jordan can be fairly criticized for often poorly written characters and a highly juvenile approach to gender relations, etc. (although the premise is interesting enough). But he deserves a lot of credit for his intricate plotting and many subtleties. The man was very intelligent, and I think he shines in this area.

I still don't understand why anyone who hasn't completed this sprawling work would attempt a debate on these matters with hard-core fans. 

Find another series that you actually like. Life is really short, you won't get to everything even if you tried. Might as well not focus on what you view as the chaff.

Funny, because I did hate re-read A Memory of Light earlier this summer. (Very minor spoilers in the rest of the post)

Spoiler

I re-read the rest of the books last year and I think in 2019, but put off re-reading the last one because I wasn't very satisfied with the ending, and I dislike Sanderson's writing. The Gathering Storm is still decent, because it has a good plot and character development, so I can stomach Sanderson's prose. I disliked Towers of Midnight on my re-read, too, despite liking it initially. It's main positive is that it resolves some threads, but the timeline is all over the place. But AMoL really doesn't have any redeeming qualities. 

 

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20 hours ago, Slurktan said:

No, Balefire is essentially instant time travel killing someone.  It is not erasing them from history.  The DO cant go retrieve your soul because he would have to travel back in time to exactly how far back the balefire burned you in order to catch it so to speak.  Your soul still exists though.

As per usual you say Jordan didn't think things through properly while working on flawed knowledge.

Well, then he didn't properly describe that in my edition of the Worldbook. Because I actually read about balefire only there. And I think I got as far as Rand using balefire a couple of times. Does he already do that in book 4?

In any case, if I'm mistaken about that I acknowledge that. But my error doesn't turn this whole balefire thing into a great idea. The idea that a couple of sorcerers can actually 'endanger reality itself' with a spell is kind of problematic in itself. If you think about what that means and entails it is rather odd that they cannot do other great things of the same magnitude, especially not all by themselves.

20 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

While true, it also misses a key point that Ishmael's desire for self-annihilation is not Buddhism or depression based.

Ishmael doesn't want to die. He wants to kill everyone and everything forever. He's philosophically opposed to existence rather than just suicidal. Which is to say he's the most evil guy in the universe who ever eviled and the only person who is actually like the Dark One. The other Forsaken have the belief that the Dark One wants to rule the world but we, the audience, get insight that he's like Melkor and wants to destroy all of creation and the Wheel.

Well, I don't know the entire series, as you all know, but what I read up on the guy and know from the Worldbook is that his ultimate desire is not to be and he apparently also thinks the Dark One wants to destroy reality rather than rule it, so their interests are aligned.

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Similarly, I don't think that reincarnation is particularly interesting to the Forsaken because you are still effectively a different person. For all these incredibly powerful dangerous mages, being reborn a farm boy or girl and growing up is less than preferrable to living as a magical demigod for centuries or millennia.

It also helps to note that all of them are varying degrees of narcissistic sociopaths.

We are not just talking Forsaken here, we talk Darkfriends in general whose motivation, according to the wiki, is, in part at least, the promise of immortality.

In light of the fact that the Wheel turns around again and again folks who are great guys will eventually be reborn as great guys again, no? I mean, that's why the Dragon is born again as the Dragon, yes?

In any case, it is a fact that death isn't the same in the world of the Wheel as it is in our world - and hence the promise of immortality should have a different (i.e. lesser) allure than it would in our world.

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ETA: about rebirth and immortality: that's another very puzzling critique. If you're reborn, your soul lives again, but your memories of your past, your achievements, your knowledge... All that is wiped. You start afresh. This is the same as living as the same person, the same consciousness, continuously? There's no connection between them, yet it's being presented as somehow odd that being reborn wouldn't suffice for a person wanting immortality? 

From what I gather Rand eventually has all the memories of Lews Therin, so he is both those guys, right? That's evidence enough that you can regain the memories of a past life under certain conditions, no?

While that's not the same as never dying you still know you will never be truly gone, and you know that you will come back exactly the way you once were.

And in general - I'm not under any obligation to voice my criticisms in a manner you would prefer (especially not in a thread about my reading/listening experiences - this isn't a general WoT thread, after all). This is supposed to be done as I listen to the audiobooks with no clear or full understanding of the entire series. And my criticism is also one of concepts as I see them, not so much one of a person who cares how this might make sense in light of further information or if I try to interpret it in the most favorable manner.

19 hours ago, David Selig said:

How do you have 24,000 posts on a ASOIAF board if characters behaving stupidly to move the plot along bothers you so much?

So far I didn't see any Jordanesque stupidity in ASoIaF, especially not of the kind of 'Let's nobody warn about what's there in Shadar Logoth' or 'It isn't odd that that Padan Fain is talking weird shit and a shortly thereafter a Myrddraal shows up in the inn I'm staying at'.

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3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I was no Mat, but I've definitely mouthed off and done stupid things when meeting new people, especially when I was in a strange country, because suddenly there's no one to tell me off if I do wrong. 

I guess you were also a backwater peasant hunted by mythical monsters? The idea is just weird that these folks would not be scared as hell in a foreign place ... also that the adults in charge would allow or encourage them to hit the streets. There is no reason for this, so they should stay at the inn.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

And Moiraine isn't a mom. She's actually pretty inept at dealing with teenagers, and that's why the teenagers she finds all end up going off on their own very quickly. She's not Gandalf. She's not a moron, but she's out of her depth when it comes to dealing with clueless teenagers. Once their awe of her wears of, they go do their own things, sometimes stupid, sometimes not. 

It is still an utter joke that she doesn't tell them about Shadar Logoth - Thom and Nynaeve and Egwene also don't know in what kind of danger they are -, just as it is a joke that the boys can just go to the next room and slip away.

As I said - there is no issue with there being action at that place - far to the contrary, actually. But you can write it the smart way or the dumb way. And this was clearly the dumb way.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

This isn't weird to me, or bad writing. I mean, people do stupid things. Sometimes mind numbingly stupid. And especially for a bunch of teenagers with no sense of the true dangers ahead of them, it's entirely normal to blunder into things. It would be unreal if they didn't do stupid things. 

They are far beyond the point in the story where they can still afford to behave like children. If monsters and demons from your nightmares hunt you don't act like a normal teenager. You no longer have the luxury to do that.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

You may remember that Moiraine was exhausted from recently fighting a few thousand Trollocs, and was talking to Nynaeve about getting some herbs to help her get some restful sleep?

I do, but she and Lan both knew where they were going - that's why they argued before, right? More than enough to talk about that.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

The boys went to a back room, and got out through an alternate entrance. I didn't realize that being good at tracking meant you had omniscient awareness of doorways beyond your line of sight. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Well, obviously they didn't realize they were gone - which is stupid - and they failed to track them down before they fell in with Mordeth - which actually didn't happen the moment they left the place, right?

One can continue pointing out things like that - for instance, why didn't Moiraine tell the boys that the coins she gave them will allow her to find them again if they were separated? That's also a grievous oversight considering the fact that from the day they are on the road those rather valuable coins would be currency they could and would use when in trouble - which then happened on the ship.

Sure, there was a chance that they might rid themselves of the coins if they knew that ... but how likely was that after they realized what kind of creatures were after them? After Baerlon she could have told them easily enough.

3 hours ago, El Kabong said:

This. Thanks. I don't get why someone would post a detailed analysis of books they barely understand let alone, from what I saw in the tv show thread, seem to viciously hate. It just seems like "well I guess I'll read this crap you losers like so you can hear my super expert smart opinion".

LOL, no I don't hate that series. I actually like bitching about it. That's hardly unusual, and considering this isn't a board dedicated to deify Robert Jordan or anything of that sort, I think it is perfectly valid to do that here, no?

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Being an isolated place, the people of the Two Rivers mainly experience the world through the rumors and tales that merchants and peddlers bring. On top of that, they live through old traditions of which they don't know the origin. (But we may know) The people of the TR are descendants of Manetheren. Well, one monumental Aes Sedai fuck up was their failure to help Manethern in the hour of need, leading to to that nation's destruction. 

Can you elaborate on that? So far, Moiraine only told the story about how Manetheren fell, with no indication that the Aes Sedai were directly or indirectly involved. Not to mention that the last queen of Manetheren was an Aes Sedai.

Overall, though, I think conspiracy theories about the de facto ruling power of the world folks know don't make that much sense. The Aes Sedai would rule the world already for ages if they were in league with the Dark One or interested in replacing the rulers of the nations with their own puppets. In fact, the fact that the Aes Sedai do not openly rule the world already indicates that they either do not want to do that or they are not powerful enough.

The fact the Children of the Light exist also indicates the Aes Sedai aren't all that powerful, etc.

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

(One thing I like in RJs writings, which reflects how stories can be twisted across time and space, is the little montages he writes of how an event gains various causes and conclusions, depending on who tells the story and where)

I'm certainly looking forward to that. And to be clear - the worldbuilding is pretty good, as are the written parts of the Worldbook.

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Another more recent fuck up that led to another nation's collapse was not helping Malkier. Doesn't Lan ask Moiraine in New Spring why the White Tower didn't come to Malkier's aid?

She says that they came too late. Which isn't a major fuck-up but them coming too late. And as I said in the other thread - the idea that a hundred Aes Sedai plus their Keepers (that's the English term, right?) can try to get there and the White Tower can then just pretend it never happened is also something that's difficult to believe.

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

In Artur Hawkwing's time, thanks to Ishamael, the Aes Sedai were hunted. Ishamael influenced Hawkwing to hate the Aes Sedai to the point that he besieged Tar Valon and I believe had bounties on Aes Sedai heads. While some of the nations that emerged from Hawkwing's empire took a different direction, becoming friendly with Aes Sedai, others were less interested. 

Yes, I know that, but that was a 1,000 years ago, and surely the Aes Sedai had ample opportunity to be less hated in the nations where the rulers are openly allied with them.

I mean, those women can heal people, and they seem to be doing that occasionally.

2 hours ago, IFR said:

I am really curious why anyone goes about hate reading a series. I don't want to disparage a hobby, but do people find pleasure in forcing themselves through something they dislike?

So far, I don't dislike it to the point that I don't continue it.

2 hours ago, IFR said:

Anyway, I think Jordan can be fairly criticized for often poorly written characters and a highly juvenile approach to gender relations, etc. (although the premise is interesting enough). But he deserves a lot of credit for his intricate plotting and many subtleties. The man was very intelligent, and I think he shines in this area.

So far I don't see much subtlety, especially not where actual plots are concerned - both the plots of plotters as well as the plot of the first novel.

2 hours ago, IFR said:

I still don't understand why anyone who hasn't completed this sprawling work would attempt a debate on these matters with hard-core fans.

I'm not debating with hardcore fans. This isn't a WoT board, and the point he certainly isn't to have hardcore fans tell me how much I suck. The point is to share my thoughts with whoever is interested - and I'd prefer it if more people who share my point of view offer they opinions ... but I cannot control that.

2 hours ago, IFR said:

Why not find another series that you actually like? Life is really short, you won't get to everything even if you tried. Might as well not focus on what you view as the chaff.

Well, I'm actually interested how this series can get worse as it progresses. I'm also interested - if I get this far - how much worse Sanderson is compared to Jordan.

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Yeah no, you clearly hate this series, and I'm frankly baffled and how you can think any one reading these posts would think anything else. 

I mean, just this one example from the bottom of you last super long post:

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Well, I'm actually interested how this series can get worse as it progresses. I'm also interested - if I get this far - how much worse Sanderson is compared to Jordan.

Cmon.

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1 minute ago, El Kabong said:

Yeah no, you clearly hate this series, and I'm frankly baffled and how you can think any one reading these posts would think anything else. 

I mean, just this one example from the bottom of you last super long post:

Cmon.

If I really hate something I don't bother writing about it.

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i routinely read things that i hate, specifically to write about them--ayn rand, goodkind, and so on. it's a legitimate hobby and bona fide public service. part of it is ethical, though, discharging the obligation of the citizen to understand one's opponents. but it's mostly aesthetic.

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7 minutes ago, sologdin said:

i routinely read things that i hate, specifically to write about them--ayn rand, goodkind, and so on. it's a legitimate hobby and bona fide public service. part of it is ethical, though, discharging the obligation of the citizen to understand one's opponents. but it's mostly aesthetic.

:lol: I appreciate the masochistic act of throwing oneself in the breach to gain perspective of those antagonistic to your tastes. Carry on, stoic warrior. Suffer, and in suffering achieve the nirvana of hate.

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I'm going to add myself to the ranks of people who are actually interested in what Lord Varys has to say during the course of his reading.

It's pretty clear to me that he doesn't hate the books, but that he probably will not "like" them on balance. But the books themselves are pretty important cultural artifacts and so attempts to read, analyse and discuss them by non-fans has obvious merit (for example, I hated Austen's Emma when I first tried it, but still think it would be worthwhile to try to re-read it again even if I still hated it). I personally have mixed feelings about the series, seeing massive pros (such as the exploration of the PTSD that a fantasy messiah would obviously have) and also massive cons (such as the treatment of women).

Also, commenting on a book whilst in the process of reading it can give as much insight as looking back on the finished product, so don't be so hasty to dismiss Lord Varys' thoughts simply because he hasn't finished the series.

Also, also, this thread already has value for me, because I had forgotten about the onset of saidin/saidar causing impulsiveness, which is a nice way to explain away at least Rand's (and maybe Egwene's, I can't remember) propensity for stupidity.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So far I didn't see any Jordanesque stupidity in ASoIaF, especially not of the kind of 'Let's nobody warn about what's there in Shadar Logoth' or 'It isn't odd that that Padan Fain is talking weird shit and a shortly thereafter a Myrddraal shows up in the inn I'm staying at'.

Really? Not even stuff like Ned allowing his 6 year old son climbing everywhere and risking his life every day? Robb marrying Jeyne? Rodrik leaving Winterfell completely defenseless in the midst of a war? The Astapor slavers selling all the Unsullied at once for a dragon they had no way to control? Etc, etc.

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17 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Being an isolated place, ...

The women may not have gone insane at the time, but they still wield a power few others can or even understand. It is the fear of the unknown. This is what forced the female Aes Sedai to place themselves under OP binding Oaths.  

A good description of the reasons Aes Sedai are widely hated, why their numbers have dwindled, and why their political power is at its nadir at the start of the series. 

17 hours ago, IFR said:

Anyway, I think Jordan can be fairly criticized for often poorly written characters and a highly juvenile approach to gender relations, etc. (although the premise is interesting enough). But he deserves a lot of credit for his intricate plotting and many subtleties. The man was very intelligent, and I think he shines in this area.

Yep, the plotting, despite the rather large chunks of drag in the middle, holds up in terms of clues placed and hints given for events. To be sure, part of that is that the world takes certain aspects of storytelling and makes them literal forces in the world, so RJ kind of assaulted the issues like retcons and twists coming out of nowhere by throwing in enough dreams, viewings and fortellings that were vague enough that whatever plot end point he picked from a bouquet of options, there was usually enough allusions and signs to what could come, that when it does happen, it looks well seeded in the story and makes sense given what we've seen before. Not always, and this process can fall flat, sometimes, but often enough that the series looks very well planned, the plan was good enough to survive a change in authors and writing styles, and engaged thousands of readers to the point of them expanding and entrenching the concept of online forum boards to discuss plot details of books, interacting with the author and getting answers to questions, and so on. The story has good bones, even if RJ obviously got to a "aligning characters" issue just like GRRM is in now, and just wrote a chunk of mediocre novels to make up for it, rather than sitting on his hands hoping for inspiration to strike to resolve the issues.

It was a compromise, no doubt. But given how things ended, one I'm glad he ended up making. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, then he didn't properly describe that in my edition of the Worldbook. Because I actually read about balefire only there. And I think I got as far as Rand using balefire a couple of times. Does he already do that in book 4?

Which edition would this be? And what does it actually say?

 

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In any case, if I'm mistaken about that I acknowledge that. But my error doesn't turn this whole balefire thing into a great idea. The idea that a couple of sorcerers can actually 'endanger reality itself' with a spell is kind of problematic in itself. If you think about what that means and entails it is rather odd that they cannot do other great things of the same magnitude, especially not all by themselves.

But they can. The only way they can use enough balefire "on their own" to endanger reality itself is also the only way they achieve some phenomenal, reality spanning effects, later in the books. We see the main characters both showing us the insane effects they can have on reality AND get to see them make enormous changes to that reality. So why do you say they cannot? Alternatively, why do you think the author should telegraph to you that they can in the first book? 

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Well, I don't know the entire series, as you all know, but what I read up on the guy and know from the Worldbook is that his ultimate desire is not to be and he apparently also thinks the Dark One wants to destroy reality rather than rule it, so their interests are aligned.

Yes. He wants to not be, and wants no one else to be. Hence an alliance of interest with he Dark One. What are you still confused about?

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We are not just talking Forsaken here, we talk Darkfriends in general whose motivation, according to the wiki, is, in part at least, the promise of immortality.

In light of the fact that the Wheel turns around again and again folks who are great guys will eventually be reborn as great guys again, no? I mean, that's why the Dragon is born again as the Dragon, yes?

But that is the Dragon, a Hero of the Horn. Ordinary people have no guarantee of being born as themselves in the next turning, and even if they do, no guarantee their lives will be anything alike to their life in the previous turning. Heck, the Dragon doesn't have that. 

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In any case, it is a fact that death isn't the same in the world of the Wheel as it is in our world - and hence the promise of immortality should have a different (i.e. lesser) allure than it would in our world.

I come from a religion that literally believes this, so let me assure you, I feel no less the allure of immortality, nor do any of the billion plus odd followers of my religion. Our books of philosophy and theology mention ways to achieve immortality. In the frame of constant rebirth.

Granted, in Hinduism you can be Reborn as a cockroach, whereas in WoT, you'll definitely remain human, but that is all the guarantee you get, along with guaranteed forgetting of every life you live, once you die, unless you're a member of a highly select club, there's no reason for these people to view immortality any differently. 

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From what I gather Rand eventually has all the memories of Lews Therin, so he is both those guys, right? That's evidence enough that you can regain the memories of a past life under certain conditions, no?

See, this is the kind of shit that makes no sense as critique. You're critiquing the wikipedia plot summary of the books rather than the books themselves. Fucking read the part where this happens and then talk. This is, firstly, achieved at enormous, almost overwhelmed cost. Second, not widely known. And third, plain impossible for anyone else. We literally have the Foremost psychologist and philosopher of the mind in the Age of Legends pointing out at one point how unique the case of the Dragon is, where you can look at someone and say for certain they were someone else Reborn, and this is even before he has all of Lews Therin's memories. 

Why the hell would the common Darkfriend a. Know this is something that's true, and b) anticipate this being true for 3000+ years before it happens?

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While that's not the same as never dying you still know you will never be truly gone, and you know that you will come back exactly the way you once were.

But that's true in systems that don't believe in rebirth. They talk of going to a higher plane, being judged, spending eternity in heaven or hell. Death isn't being "truly gone" in most concepts of the after-life, hence the phrase after-life. 

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And in general - I'm not under any obligation to voice my criticisms in a manner you would prefer (especially not in a thread about my reading/listening experiences - this isn't a general WoT thread, after all). This is supposed to be done as I listen to the audiobooks with no clear or full understanding of the entire series. And my criticism is also one of concepts as I see them, not so much one of a person who cares how this might make sense in light of further information or if I try to interpret it the most favorable manner.

You're under no obligation. But neither are we obliged to not point out the illogic and absurdity of your so-called critiques that are based on Google searches and spoilers rather than the actual story.

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So far I didn't see any Jordanesque stupidity in ASoIaF, especially not of the kind of 'Let's nobody warn about what's there in Shadar Logoth' or 'It isn't odd that that Padan Fain is talking weird shit and a shortly thereafter a Myrddraal shows up in the inn I'm staying at'.

Yes. Clearly, incestuous twins humping in the fortress of their biggest political threat is a total genius move. They fucking start a war by fucking, so way more of the plot revolves around this than anything you've so far pointed out in WoT.

As for Padan Fain... What weird shit? And why should they mistrust the familiar guy when they also have Thom and the Aes Sedai and her Warder to blame? 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess you were also a backwater peasant hunted by mythical monsters? The idea is just weird that these folks would not be scared as hell in a foreign place ... also that the adults in charge would allow or encourage them to hit the streets. There is no reason for this, so they should stay at the inn.

I'm truly confused at you thinking that they should shut down in terror and be too scared to move. I suppose it would make sense for some people to react like that, but no one who is being built up to be a major protagonist of any story will be so terrified by their first encounter with monsters that they stop doing anything at all and blindly cling to the skirts of their magical benefactor. 

You may call them braver than average, if that helps. But that's true of every other character in every other fantasy story. 

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It is still an utter joke that she doesn't tell them about Shadar Logoth - Thom and Nynaeve and Egwene also don't know in what kind of danger they are -, just as it is a joke that the boys can just go to the next room and slip away.

Sure. Worst books ever.

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As I said - there is no issue with there being action at that place - far to the contrary, actually. But you can write it the smart way or the dumb way. And this was clearly the dumb way.

You can critique a book series the smart way and the dumb way, yet here we are with you adhering to the dumb way. Clearly, it's a pretty common authorial choice.

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They are far beyond the point in the story where they can still afford to behave like children. If monsters and demons from your nightmares hunt you don't act like a normal teenager. You no longer have the luxury to do that.

Yes, because that kind of logical, mature thinking is exactly what teenagers are renowned for world over. This is why parents love their teenage children and yearn for the wonders of practical thinking their kids will exhibit when they become teens.

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I do, but she and Lan both knew where they were going - that's why they argued before, right? More than enough to talk about that.

Yes. A lecture while riding as fast away would be totally reasonable.

Or maybe you'd then be complaining about there being too much exposition in the midst of danger, and how unrealistic that is...

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Well, obviously they didn't realize they were gone - which is stupid -

Why?

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and they failed to track them down before they fell in with Mordeth -

And they were to do this how? They're in a city, not a forest. It's not like there's a clear track to follow.

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which actually didn't happen the moment they left the place, right?

No. Mordeth was not standing outside the back door with a knife. Is this something that would be the "smart" way to write this section of the book that you were talking about?

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One can continue pointing out things like that - for instance, why didn't Moiraine tell the boys that the coins she gave them will allow her to find them again if they were separated?

Oh yes. I, the mysterious magic user you so heavily distrust that you hesitate to ask for my help to save your dying father, have a GPS tracker on you, fellas. You're chill with that right, dudes?:laugh:

You're certainly right about something, though. There are dumb ways to write this story, and you seem to be coming up with all those ways. 

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That's also a grievous oversight considering the fact that from the day they are on the road those rather valuable coins would be currency they could and would use when in trouble - which then happened on the ship.

The Finder weave actually acts to prevent that, and Moiraine literally says so, and we see from Rand's PoV how much of a struggle it was to let go, and how he wishes he had it back when Domon gives him back some coin, but not the specific one Moiraine gave him. Your reading comprehension is really shitty, you know? 

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Mat quickly stuffed the coins Thom shoved in front of him into his pocket. Rand picked his pile up more slowly. The coin Moiraine had given him was not among them. Domon had given an equal weight of silver, but Rand, for some reason he could not fathom, wished he had the Aes Sedai’s coin instead. Stuffing the money in his pocket, he looked a question at the gleeman.

As Moiraine explains, Rand resists the effects of the weave best, but even he isn't immune. I think Moiraine was fine if the coins were used in extreme situations like they were. The trace they left was still enough for her to track them, remember?

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Sure, there was a chance that they might rid themselves of the coins if they knew that ... but how likely was that after they realized what kind of creatures were after them? After Baerlon she could have told them easily enough.

It was plenty likely. You're expecting everyone to behave rationally and without emotions ruling them. It's actually asking for very shitty writing. 

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Can you elaborate on that? So far, Moiraine only told the story about how Manetheren fell, with no indication that the Aes Sedai were directly or indirectly involved. Not to mention that the last queen of Manetheren was an Aes Sedai.

Yes, she was. And the Amyrlin Seat at the time was jealous of her so found a way to delay aid to Manetheren just as it faced it's worst threat. Which resulted in Eldrene's death and the destruction of the city.

Of course, she was deposed and punished, but by then, the damage was done. The most powerful nation of the first thousand years after the Breaking had been obliterated, and it takes more than a hundred years for a future Amyrlin to finally break the Shadow's advance and win the war. 

Sure, the specific history isn't remembered in the Two Rivers. But the propensity to mistrust Aes Sedai due in part to this isn't that hard to see, no?

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Overall, though, I think conspiracy theories about the de facto ruling power of the world folks know don't make that much sense. The Aes Sedai would rule the world already for ages if they were in league with the Dark One or interested in replacing the rulers of the nations with their own puppets. In fact, the fact that the Aes Sedai do not openly rule the world already indicates that they either do not want to do that or they are not powerful enough.

Ah yes. This is why conspiracy theories that Bill Gates has the power to create vaccines with nanochips to track you and that Democrats are powerful enough to create a pandemic to win an election, or that witches had great power and must be burned to prevent their evil... All never found much purchase, right? 

Of course it's an illogical belief that all Aes Sedai are Darkfriends. But that's what conspiracy theories are. 

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She says that they came too late. Which isn't a major fuck-up but them coming too late. And as I said in the other thread - the idea that a hundred Aes Sedai plus their Keepers (that's the English term, right?) can try to get there and the White Tower can then just pretend it never happened is also something that's difficult to believe.

Warders. The Keeper is the chief-of-staff for the Amyrlin. 

There's nothing wrong with them being too late. But they didn't want to show that they were too late to help Malkier. They pretended they never helped, because they'd rather the political forces of the world wonder why the Tower didn't help, than figure out their intelligence gathering and military preparedness was bad enough that they couldn't save a close ally. That causes distrust, but it keeps the fear alive, and the Tower now pretty much rules by fear.

As for keeping it secret, one just needs to look at the map to know how that was achieved. The route to Malkier from Tar Valon is early on through pretty dead countryside with a few villages and no big cities. And it's easy enough to deduce the Aes Sedai hadn't crossed through this and into Shienar before news came that Malkier had fallen.

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Yes, I know that, but that was a 1,000 years ago, and surely the Aes Sedai had ample opportunity to be less hated in the nations where the rulers are openly allied with them.

No, because their numbers have been dwindling, and their political influence has been pretty weak, even in those lands. The rulers like them, but that doesn't mean the people do. That's only generally true in Andor and the Borderlands, and the Malkier incident cost them in the Borderlands, and in Andor, the Whitecloaks have been at work and managed to turn a chunk of the country against Aes Sedai.

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I mean, those women can heal people, and they seem to be doing that occasionally.

Only occasionally, that's the point. They have neither the numbers, nor the sense and political insight at this point to do something like set up hospitals in all the big cities.

If you make the trek to Tar Valon, or happen to come across an Aes Sedai, sure, she'll heal you or your family. But then you're contending also with people being reluctant to ask for such aid because they believe it comes with strings attached. Which it often does. Did you not read the part of the book where Rand has to make this decision? 

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I'm not debating with hardcore fans. This isn't a WoT board, and the point he certainly isn't to have hardcore fans tell me how much I suck. The point is to share my thoughts with whoever is interested - and I'd prefer it if more people who share my point of view offer they opinions ... but I cannot control that.

Indeed not..much as you seem to enjoy making half-baked arguments based on spoiling yourself from future books, others can, and do, get pleasure from pointing out how much of a nincompoop you come off as when you declaratively state your incorrect understanding to then back up your pronouncement that the series is bad. It's hilarious, and it's making me actually reconnect with what I like about the books. 

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9 hours ago, Mazzack said:

Also, commenting on a book whilst in the process of reading it can give as much insight as looking back on the finished product, so don't be so hasty to dismiss Lord Varys' thoughts simply because he hasn't finished the series.

That's not the issue, though. But he ain't approaching this as a new reader. He's approaching this as a reader who is reading the early books, but knows some things from the future books or thinks he understands some events from the future, and uses that to critique the current book.

He can absolutely finish the books and say, "see, the payoff for this event from book 12, that was first seeded here in book 1, is pretty bad given the amount of buildup". That's legit critique. But "I think even A happens in some book, I don't really understand it, and so this part of the early book is shit" isn't. 

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Also, also, this thread already has value for me, because I had forgotten about the onset of saidin/saidar causing impulsiveness, which is a nice way to explain away at least Rand's (and maybe Egwene's, I can't remember) propensity for stupidity.

Egwene doesn't have that. She consciously channels the first time, so she has none of the reactions that come from channeling on your own without a tutor. Not sure what stupidity we're talking about from her at this stage, though. 

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

Really? Not even stuff like Ned allowing his 6 year old son climbing everywhere and risking his life every day? Robb marrying Jeyne? Rodrik leaving Winterfell completely defenseless in the midst of a war? The Astapor slavers selling all the Unsullied at once for a dragon they had no way to control? Etc, etc.

The Essosi are all barbarians, and hence stupid, no? That's almost a rule of thumb, in aSoIaF. Easily some of the weakest and most offensive parts of the world building, and somewhere where RJ is much better. Even his strangest and most "other" cultures doesn't come across as so toxically dumb and inept that you question how they've managed to survive at all. And he's good at showing their perspective, and the ways they would paper over the things the main continent would think of as absurd. 

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34 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Egwene doesn't have that. She consciously channels the first time, so she has none of the reactions that come from channeling on your own without a tutor. Not sure what stupidity we're talking about from her at this stage, though.

I first read Eye of the World in mid-2000s and have never done a full re-read (but rather have re-read sections since then). My memories is of Mat, Rand and, to a lesser extent, Egwene and Nynaeve being a bit callow, and often a bit foolish and arrogant about how they approached the problems they were facing. For example, my memories are that Egwene often entered into situations with the presupposition that the knowledge or intuitions of men were wrong simply because they were men. If that recollection about Egwene is wrong, then I apologise. And I guess since she is not a wilder, then the encounter with saidar is not a sufficient excuse.

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28 minutes ago, Mazzack said:

I first read Eye of the World in mid-2000s and have never done a full re-read (but rather have re-read sections since then). My memories is of Mat, Rand and, to a lesser extent, Egwene and Nynaeve being a bit callow, and often a bit foolish and arrogant about how they approached the problems they were facing. For example, my memories are that Egwene often entered into situations with the presupposition that the knowledge or intuitions of men were wrong simply because they were men. If that recollection about Egwene is wrong, then I apologise. And I guess since she is not a wilder, then the encounter with saidar is not a sufficient excuse.

Oh they're all definitely callow and immature in various ways. And Egwene does have that view about her friends (less so older men) and boyfriend, but that does tend to ease, though tension between her and Rand only ratchets up, but that's for different reasons.

With the One Power, it's only Wilders who face those issues. I always took it to mean the brain having difficulty processing the new sensory information and the dormant knowledge that you can massively alter the world around you, and having no idea that the reason is that you can channel, you get behaviorally weird, and your physiology also reacts poorly. 

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Can you elaborate on that? So far, Moiraine only told the story about how Manetheren fell, with no indication that the Aes Sedai were directly or indirectly involved. Not to mention that the last queen of Manetheren was an Aes Sedai.

Overall, though, I think conspiracy theories about the de facto ruling power of the world folks know don't make that much sense. The Aes Sedai would rule the world already for ages if they were in league with the Dark One or interested in replacing the rulers of the nations with their own puppets. In fact, the fact that the Aes Sedai do not openly rule the world already indicates that they either do not want to do that or they are not powerful enough.

The fact the Children of the Light exist also indicates the Aes Sedai aren't all that powerful, etc.

I'm certainly looking forward to that. And to be clear - the worldbuilding is pretty good, as are the written parts of the Worldbook.

She says that they came too late. Which isn't a major fuck-up but them coming too late. And as I said in the other thread - the idea that a hundred Aes Sedai plus their Keepers (that's the English term, right?) can try to get there and the White Tower can then just pretend it never happened is also something that's difficult to believe.

Yes, I know that, but that was a 1,000 years ago, and surely the Aes Sedai had ample opportunity to be less hated in the nations where the rulers are openly allied with them.

I mean, those women can heal people, and they seem to be doing that occasionally.

On Manetheren, I guess it's revealed later, not then, that the Amyrlin played some Trumpian level of politics, ie she had a petty jealousy towards the Queen of Manetheren, and withheld help. She is deposed as a consequence later.

I don't think Aes Sedai see themselves as rulers of the world, in the sense of what a traditional ruler is. And neither do the monarchs and governments see the Aes Sedai as such. Granted, Aes Sedai twisted the role of the ancient Aes Sedai, thanks to the War of the Power and the Breaking. Aes Sedai means Servant of All in the Old Tongue. If I were to compare them to anything modern, they're more like corporatists, attempting to influence governments for their benefit, or for what they see as the greater good. But they often have to balance between exerting some authority and stepping lightly. 

While Hawkwing's time was a 1000 years ago, the effects of his reign and the massive war that engulfed the continent after has had long lasting consequences. Can you say it's much different from ASoIaF, where world progression moves at a snail's pace, or from the LOTR universe? It's a common fantasy trope for people and peoples to display long, but often twisted memories.

On Malkier - why is it hard to believe that an institution that relies on appearances and past successes for political leverage would cover up their ineptitude at helping an allied nation which was annihilated in part because of that ineptitude? 

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3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

On Malkier - why is it hard to believe that an institution that relies on appearances and past successes for political leverage would cover up their ineptitude at helping an allied nation which was annihilated in part because of that ineptitude? 

It's more than in part. Malkier definitely had an Aes Sedai advisor. If she didn't see the consequences of the political infighting, and warn the Tower, or the Tower ignored her warnings, that's pretty shitty for a political body that primarily succeeds in the current age by having good Intel. They either didn't have obvious Intel, or didn't have a clue how to deal with it, either way, that's awful, and they want none of that leaking out. So better to pretend they had a secret motive for withholding support. It is gross, and definitely dumb, in the long run. But hardly though to believe. 

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15 hours ago, sologdin said:

i routinely read things that i hate, specifically to write about them--ayn rand, goodkind, and so on. it's a legitimate hobby and bona fide public service. part of it is ethical, though, discharging the obligation of the citizen to understand one's opponents. but it's mostly aesthetic.

Yes, that kind of thing is pretty normal. Certain people here don't seem to understand what literary criticism is or that reviews aren't just written to praise stuff.

4 hours ago, David Selig said:

Really? Not even stuff like Ned allowing his 6 year old son climbing everywhere and risking his life every day? Robb marrying Jeyne? Rodrik leaving Winterfell completely defenseless in the midst of a war? The Astapor slavers selling all the Unsullied at once for a dragon they had no way to control? Etc, etc.

Some of that is convenient, but it is not stupid. The Stark children are deliberately expected not to be children forever - winter is coming. Even three-year-old Rickon is supposed to behave like a grown-up. Robb doesn't marry Jeyne five minutes or a day after he agreed to marry a Frey - nor is the Robb agreeing to this match made by his mother already a king. Robb behaves realistically stupid, not stupidly stupid. Just like Victarion is well-written moron and not a badly written moron. Rodrik wasn't that smart ... but he wasn't that dumb, either. He had no good reason to expect that Winterfell would be attacked by a small force of Ironborn - especially because that was actually a stupid move since Theon couldn't hope holding the castle. As for the dragon - what kind of means do you need to control and train a magical animal that has been extinct for centuries? A dragon is power, and you cross the bridge how to control it after you have acquired it. And how difficult can it be to control an animal, anyway?

Jordan's problem is that his characters just act like they are complete morons in situations ... while it is clear that they are not supposed to be morons. They are supposed to be smart (or at least not stupid) people.

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

On Manetheren, I guess it's revealed later, not then, that the Amyrlin played some Trumpian level of politics, ie she had a petty jealousy towards the Queen of Manetheren, and withheld help. She is deposed as a consequence later.

That would sound interesting ... if Jordan had not again used something as clichéd as petty jealousy as background for what could have been an actual political conflict.

In general, that story is again kind of weird due to the fact that the queen actually could magically destroy the entire evil army even if it cost her own life. If you can do that, you should do that kind of thing more often in a war against annihilation by monsters rather than sacrificing thousands and thousands of soldiers.

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

I don't think Aes Sedai see themselves as rulers of the world, in the sense of what a traditional ruler is. And neither do the monarchs and governments see the Aes Sedai as such. Granted, Aes Sedai twisted the role of the ancient Aes Sedai, thanks to the War of the Power and the Breaking. Aes Sedai means Servant of All in the Old Tongue. If I were to compare them to anything modern, they're more like corporatists, attempting to influence governments for their benefit, or for what they see as the greater good. But they often have to balance between exerting some authority and stepping lightly.

My general criticism just is that the author fails to properly introduce the Aes Sedai as shady characters with ambivalent or questionable motives. I maintain that this could have been done rather easily by giving our characters more knowledge about things the Aes Sedai did or allegedly did or are blamed for.

We get the Breaking of the World and the whole issue of the gentling of the men which is an ugly thing. But I don't think that's enough. I'll have to wait and see how Elaida is presented in Andor later in the book. I don't remember that very well at this point.

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

While Hawkwing's time was a 1000 years ago, the effects of his reign and the massive war that engulfed the war after has had long lasting consequences. Can you say it's much different from ASoIaF, where world progression moves at a snail's pace, or from the LOTR universe? It's a common fantasy trope for people and peoples to display long, but often twisted memories.

The Aes Sedai didn't seem to be much involved in the war after Hawkwing's death, so whatever they did or didn't do during that era shouldn't have had that much of an impact.

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

On Malkier - why is it hard to believe that an institution that relies on appearances and past successes for political leverage would cover up their ineptitude at helping an allied nation which was annihilated in part because of that ineptitude? 

Oh, it definitely makes sense for the Aes Sedai to keep their failure a secret. The issue I have was more that Jordan actually wants us to buy that they could actually keep it a secret that they sent out a hundred Aes Sedai plus their Warders ... and then even Lan and the Malkieri are ignorant about this. This is not distant history but quite recent history. This is kind of cheap trick making an organization look powerful and shady if they can control information and history - but things do not happen in a vacuum.

This entire thing would also have no impact on how the Aes Sedai are viewed in the Two Rivers region - the folks there don't even seem to know where Malkier is/was, much less expect the White Tower to help them in a war against half-mythical Trolloc hordes.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We get the Breaking of the World and the whole issue of the gentling of the men which is an ugly thing. But I don't think that's enough. I'll have to wait and see how Elaida is presented in Andor later in the book. I don't remember that very well at this point.

I keep forgetting you're still early in the book. So yeah, keep reading/listening.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, it definitely makes sense for the Aes Sedai to keep their failure a secret. The issue I have was more that Jordan actually wants us to buy that they could actually keep it a secret that they sent out a hundred Aes Sedai plus their Warders ... and then even Lan and the Malkieri are ignorant about this. This is not distant history but quite recent history. This is kind of cheap trick making an organization look powerful and shady if they can control information and history - but things do not happen in a vacuum.

Look at the map. It's a big land with swaths of sparsely populated regions. I do criticize this decision by RJ, because it seems strongly inspired by Middle-earth, without firm explanations other than the civilization is in a slow decline. But to your question, being such a large land, army movements are not always easy to track. RJ actually makes it a point that armies with clever commanders can move undetected. The Eye of the World and New Spring don't show much of this simply because warfare isn't a major plot point in those books, but in later books, definitely. But even in TEotW, the Whitecloaks have an entire legion in Andoran territory, and the Queen doesn't seem to know about it. I don't believe we're told how far the Aes Sedai aid force got, but it's possible for them to have heard news of Malkier's fall from travelling people, or had Warders that moved on far ahead, and then turned back with no one of importance being the wiser.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This entire thing would also have no impact on how the Aes Sedai are viewed in the Two Rivers region - the folks there don't even seem to know where Malkier is/was, much less expect the White Tower to help them in a war against half-mythical Trolloc hordes.

If they don't know about Malkier, why would they know the truth about who the Aes Sedai are? I said already how they get their news.

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