The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I'm pretty sure he knew where the story needed to go, but he certainly fell in love with the sprawling world. Personally I think Fain plays a critical role further down the line, but he does outlive his welcome.

Does Jordan ever really explain how Mordeth could create a power that was truly dangerous to the Shadowspawn? I mean, as far as we know at this point he wasn't a channeler, so I've no idea how this whole 'beat the Shadow at its own game' routine could possibly work.

But the silliness actually continues - so there is an attempt on Rand's life that looks as if Siuan was the target. And then that stupid woman actually publicly indicates that she wasn't the target but Rand was - when her entire game is to keep it a secret that Rand is the Dragon Reborn! I mean, how stupid can you possibly be? The best way to misdirect folks there would have been to pretend that she had been the target, so people don't get even more interested in Rand.

It is the same with Rand and Nynaeve and Egwene basically mentioning all the time in a public conversations that he is a channeler and might be gentled if the Red Ajah realized this. They are surrounded by a bunch of sorceresses who can do magic. They could very easily be spied upon, and at this point all of them should have realized this, especially the two women about to go to Tar Valon.

[Lord Patrek]

22 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I'm pretty sure he knew where the story needed to go, but he certainly fell in love with the sprawling world. Personally I think Fain plays a critical role further down the line, but he does outlive his welcome.

The main problem with the series was that starting with ACoS (which was finished in a hotel room and then hit the shelves 6 weeks later), no WoT installment went through a full round of editing until KoD. 

ACoS debuted at number 2 on the NYT bestseller list and all the other volumes hit number 1. So Tom Doherty didn't care and was happy to publish anything as soon as it was written. Remember that at the time, Robert Jordan and Terry Goodkind were Tor Books' one-two punch, generating sales that no other two SFF authors from another publisher could even come close to. Add worldwide sales and we're talking millions of copies sold. WoT became this enormous cash cow and nobody wanted the fun to stop. Even if fans complained, even back then, we were all so invested in the series that we still bough the hardcovers as soon as they came out.

Doherty kept maintaining that RJ was under editorial control 24 hours a day, what with Harriet being an editor at Tor. But in reality, the manuscripts were published as they were turned in and that was the end of it. And that's what the books missed the most: a true editor.

One of the plotlines that totally sprawled out of control was the girls in Ebou Dar. When the Bowl of the Winds was used several books later, everyone sort of shook their heads, wondering why it had taken so long to get to this point.

[Ninefingers]

21 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

The main problem with the series was that starting with ACoS (which was finished in a hotel room and then hit the shelves 6 weeks later), no WoT installment went through a full round of editing until KoD. 

ACoS debuted at number 2 on the NYT bestseller list and all the other volumes hit number 1. So Tom Doherty didn't care and was happy to publish anything as soon as it was written. Remember that at the time, Robert Jordan and Terry Goodkind were Tor Books' one-two punch, generating sales that no other two SFF authors from another publisher could even come close to. Add worldwide sales and we're talking millions of copies sold. WoT became this enormous cash cow and nobody wanted the fun to stop. Even if fans complained, even back then, we were all so invested in the series that we still bough the hardcovers as soon as they came out.

Doherty kept maintaining that RJ was under editorial control 24 hours a day, what with Harriet being an editor at Tor. But in reality, the manuscripts were published as they were turned in and that was the end of it. And that's what the books missed the most: a true editor.

One of the plotlines that totally sprawled out of control was the girls in Ebou Dar. When the Bowl of the Winds was used several books later, everyone sort of shook their heads, wondering why it had taken so long to get to this point.

This is a satisfying answer. 

[Corvinus85]

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

One of the plotlines that totally sprawled out of control was the girls in Ebou Dar. When the Bowl of the Winds was used several books later, everyone sort of shook their heads, wondering why it had taken so long to get to this point.

Backend of book 6, book 7, and start of book 8. But yeah, it was lengthy.

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Does Jordan ever really explain how Mordeth could create a power that was truly dangerous to the Shadowspawn? I mean, as far as we know at this point he wasn't a channeler, so I've no idea how this whole 'beat the Shadow at its own game' routine could possibly work.

If he explains it in interviews I'm not aware. Within the books, you have to draw your own conclusions from the little clues left around. 

My own assumption: Mordeth had a supernatural ability in the vein as Min's viewings or Perrin's wolf communication, thus not linked to the One Power. This allowed him to draw out the dark thoughts and negative emotions from people until they manifested physically. So this evil comes from people, not from the Dark One. It's the trope of fighting fire with fire.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

My own assumption: Mordeth had a supernatural ability in the vein as Min's viewings or Perrin's wolf communication, thus not linked to the One Power. This allowed him to draw out the dark thoughts and negative emotions from people until they manifested physically. So this evil comes from people, not from the Dark One. It's the trope of fighting fire with fire.

Oh, I understand the symbolism, alright. It is not exactly subtle. But in a sense it is like taking a homoepath seriously trying to beat a proper physician at his own game. That's not going to work because he wouldn't have the means to do so.

Meaning how the hell could Mordeth come up with something that could seriously rival or threaten the powers of the Dark One?

Even more so, considering that the finale apparently reveals that everything evil/dark in humanity comes directly from the Dark One, that he is necessary for humanity to exist the way they are, anything dark or evil in the original Mordeth would come directly from the Dark One, too. The same the dark thoughts/feelings of other people Mordeth might have somehow harvested. At best this could have played into the general thing of the Dark One's minions constantly fighting each other, but the idea that Mordeth-Fain could ever become a rival power in his own right, challenging the Dark One himself and his plans somehow doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

For that Jordan should have given Mordeth a backstory making it clear that his power was grounded in something completely different from the Dark One. A power he could, for one reason or another, not touch or influence or interact with. But without such a background this whole idea doesn't seem to make much sense.

[Corvinus85]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I understand the symbolism, alright. It is not exactly subtle. But in a sense it is like taking a homoepath seriously trying to beat a proper physician at his own game. That's not going to work because he wouldn't have the means to do so.

Meaning how the hell could Mordeth come up with something that could seriously rival or threaten the powers of the Dark One?

Even more so, considering that the finale apparently reveals that everything evil/dark in humanity comes directly from the Dark One, that he is necessary for humanity to exist the way they are, anything dark or evil in the original Mordeth would come directly from the Dark One, too. The same the dark thoughts/feelings of other people Mordeth might have somehow harvested. At best this could have played into the general thing of the Dark One's minions constantly fighting each other, but the idea that Mordeth-Fain could ever become a rival power in his own right, challenging the Dark One himself and his plans somehow doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

For that Jordan should have given Mordeth a backstory making it clear that his power was grounded in something completely different from the Dark One. A power he could, for one reason or another, not touch or influence or interact with. But without such a background this whole idea doesn't seem to make much sense.

Fain may believe he can challenge the DO. That is far removed from reality.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Corvinus85 said:

Fain may believe he can challenge the DO. That is far removed from reality.

Fair enough. But isn't he a real danger to the Dark One's most powerful minions? And doesn't he actually thwart the Dark One's plans occasionally?

[Corvinus85]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Fair enough. But isn't he a real danger to the Dark One's most powerful minions? And doesn't he actually thwart the Dark One's plans occasionally?

Yes, but the DO is imprisoned. His most powerful servants, for all their knowledge and power, are still human. 

[Lord Varys]

How silly is it that they can steal the Horn of Valere? Agelmar handed it to Siuan, and she then dumbly returns it to be kept in their treasure vault? I mean, isn't this magical artificat important enough that some Aes Sedai guard it personally? Perhaps even the Amyrlin herself?

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Yes, but the DO is imprisoned. His most powerful servants, for all their knowledge and power, are still human. 

Yeah, but if it is the power of the Dark One that ultimately drives or fuels the powers of Mordeth-Fain then his influence over him should grow in the same manner, no? I mean, the most powerful minions of the Dark One can really no longer act against his interests, because the pact they forged with now allows him to influence them.

But what I read about the whole Fain issue is that he effectively can free himself from the Dark One's influence because the Mordeth part of him gives him that strength. Which would only make sense if Mordeth was completely unconnected to the Dark One.

I'd also say that it would be kind of odd/weird if Ishamael and the Forsaken fueled by the True Power are somehow weaker than the Mordeth fellow who, to our knowledge, had no special magical powers nor the means to acquire them aside from the vague notion of using the power of the Shadow against itself.

I mean, it is kind of weird that Mordeth should be able to create this destructive mashadar thingy ... but the actual followers of the Shadow, the Forsaken included, never created something as destructive as that. At least not to my knowledge.

[Lord Varys]

Man, is the plot of TGH weird.

Can anybody tell me two things, I don't remember if that's ever discussed later, but I want to know anyway:

1. Why the hell Padan Fain stole the Horn of Valere? Why would he care about that?

2. Why the hell the Darkfriends at Fal Dara (Ingtar and whoever else was there) freed Padan Fain and allowed him to take the Horn of Valere?

Not only did Fain fail back in the first book, Ba'alzamon also no longer needs Padan Fain because he now knows exactly where Rand al'Thor is, so Fain's ability as the hunter of the Dragon Reborn is no longer needed.

Bottom line is as I see events at this point there is no internal reason/motivation for the bad guys to free this guy. And one could even argue that Ba'alzamon and the Dark One should already be aware that Fain has changed considering the fact that they must know he was at Shadar Logoth and later got through the passageways and stuff.

If you think about this thing, look how ridiculous the plot is. Why didn't Liandrin or Ingtar take the Horn, pretending the Trollocs who raided the castle got away with it. That way they could have claimed the Horn for the Shadow, no?

Oh, and of course Fain can kill Myrddraals and do very creepy things ... but he cannot open a fucking box. How fucking convenient!

Insofar as slow pacing is concerned:

I'm listening to the split German audiobooks. We do have two volumes for TGH and it is about 200 files per volume à 5-10 minutes each. It was around file 100 (!!!) that the gang finally left Fal Dara. That is just unacceptable.

But I get what you mean with the plot slowing down even further in the later volumes. Apparently Perrin's wife is abducted for three novels or something like that ... which is likely a plot one could have resolved in a couple of chapters...

[fionwe1987]

Omg, you keep berating the characters for not getting what Fain is, but you haven't even figured it out yet? 

Rofl this is hilarious. 

Now your earlier posts on this read almost like a parody!

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Omg, you keep berating the characters for not getting what Fain is, but you haven't even figured it out yet? 

Rofl this is hilarious. 

Now your earlier posts on this read almost like a parody!

LOL, of course I know what Fain is. I realized what he is the first time he behaved like Mordeth back in the first book.

I just see no reason why this guy should want the Horn or why the Dark One's minions would want to free him. The other Darkfriends at Fal Dara could have taken the Horn. Fain is no longer needed, because they know where Rand is.

And the evil guys running the show - the Dark One and Ishamael - should already know that Fain is no longer trustworthy. The idea that they would dispatch Trollocs and Myrddraals to Fal Dara to free Fain is completely ridiculous.

I mean, think about that shitty plot - we have the Darkfriend Ingtar chasing the 'Darkfriend' Fain because the latter stole the Horn with the help of the former. Why on earth couldn't Ingtar steal the Horn himself, pretend that the Trollocks/Myrddraal stole the Horn, while he himself kept it, sent it to Shayol Ghul or did whatever the hell he wanted to do with the thing?

That's just a completely silly plot.

[Lord Varys]

And since we are continuing silliness:

The fact that Lews Therin Telamon had an actual 'dragon banner' is also not exactly convincing. The Breaking destroyed the society of the Age of Legends, not the War against the Shadow, and Lews Therin was the child of the very utopian society he tried to save. He would not devolve to the level of primitivism to choose the depiction of a medieval dragon creature as his personal sigil/standard - assuming he would ever feel the need for a banner it wouldn't be something as clichéd as this.

Also, considering the fact that the name Dragon clearly is something that was given to Lews Therin during the war, not in the wake of his madness and his suicide, we also have to ask ourselves why anyone would call him 'Dragon'?

After all, it seems clear that the entire point of that moniker is to reference both his good and bad aspects/deeds. The idea that the name 'Dragon' would be a great way to unify the people in a war against the devil is not exactly a great idea.

[Derfel Cadarn]

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And since we are continuing silliness:

The fact that Lews Therin Telamon had an actualy 'dragon banner' is also not exactly convincing. The Breaking destroyed the society of the Age of Legends, not the War against the Shadow, and Lews Therin was the child of the utopian society he tried to save. He would not devolve to the level of primitism to choose the depiction of a medieval dragon creature as his personal sigil/standard - assuming he would ever feel the need for a banner it wouldn't be something as clichéd as this.

Also, considering the fact that the name Dragon clearly is something that was given to Lews Therin during the war, not in the wake of his madness and his suicide, we also have to ask ourselves why anyone would call him 'Dragon'?

After all, it seems clear that the entire point of that moniker is to reference both his good and bad aspects/deeds. The idea that the name 'Dragon' would be a great way to unify the people in a war against the devil is not exactly a great idea.

Interestingly, the name dragon is pretty synonymous with the devil. (Dracula means both son of the dragon and son of the devil).

Lews Therin is Lucifer (note similarity in names). In Randland, the War in Heaven is pretty much how our age (the 1st) is remembering a previous 2nd age. 
The place names give it away (Hevan, Paaran Dissan (paradise)). Lews Therin and the male Aes Sedai are essentially Lucifer and the other rebel ‘angels’ who got kicked out of heaven for rebelling, the taint on Saidin being their Fall.

 

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Interestingly, the name dragon is pretty synonymous with the devil. (Dracula means both son of the dragon and son of the devil).

Yes, I know that, that's why I wrote that it very odd to use that name to unify the people to fight against the devil. It would have made more sense if Lews Therin had earned that name in the wake of his madness and murderous rampage.

And thinking about that - it is also kind of silly that we never saw any of the great male Aes Sedai survivors of the War of the Shadow commit mass suicide rather than turn into monsters. I mean, seriously, are we to believe that the Lews Therin and his companions didn't realize that saidin was tainted by the Dark One? We do hear that the male channelers feel it every time they touch it.

Is there an excuse by the author why things unfolded as they did? Did those great heroes all turn into selfish morons who clung to life and madness rather than realizing what common sense and human decency would compel them to? Kill themselves before they would murder everybody they knew.

16 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Lews Therin is Lucifer (note similarity in names). In Randland, the War in Heaven is pretty much how our age (the 1st) is remembering a previous 2nd age. 
The place names give it away (Hevan, Paaran Dissan (paradise)). Lews Therin and the male Aes Sedai are essentially Lucifer and the other rebel ‘angels’ who got kicked out of heaven for rebelling, the taint on Saidin being their Fall.

I guess there might be some such parallels, but it rather seems to me as if Lews Therin was the guy trying to do the right thing, while the female Aes Sedai who opposed him ruined everything. Together they may have been able to do what Rand and his gang do at the end, no?

The men are the ones who go mad, but the women are to blame for the taint because they forced Lews Therin to do his own thing, no?

Or is clear that Lews Therin's plan was so flawed that if the women had helped both saidin and saidar would have been tainted?

[Lord Varys]

And continuing this:

In what world does it make sense that anyone would put hopes in either the Dragon Reborn or various False Dragons? I mean, seriously, why? Because of prophecies nobody can really know will come true? So far as the people in the world know all the male channelers will go mad and rot alive. There is no exception.

You would have to be as mad as your average mad male channeler to follow a guy who will inevitably turn into a raving lunatic with superpowers.

And as far as know half the world or more people will fall over themselves declaring their allegiance to this guy.

Certainly, the idea of Rand struggling with madness is potentially great plot ... but to make this somebody everybody knows is a very bad idea, because that will mean that people could not possibly view him as a savior, no matter what prophecy says.

And to be sure - the obvious resolution of this plot would also be that madness was the solution to the problem, that only a madman could defeat the Dark One, that the taint of saidin wasn't something that can or should be overcome (I know they cleanse it in the future) but rather that it was a crucial ingredient in final undoing of the Dark One's plans. Sort of an unintentional mistake he made back when fought against Lews Therin.

In that context it would also have made more sense if we would have a zealous order trying to find and kill male channelers rather than Aes Sedai. After all, there must have been some Children of the Light who turned out to be male channelers going mad, right? It is a low percentage of the male population, but with the talent manifesting rather late sometimes, it would be bound to happen once in a while. And whenever that happened the reputation of the organization would be in shambles.

Instead, one would expect the Children of the Light be an all-female Red Ajah-like organization, not a bunch of male warriors.

[Poobah]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And thinking about that - it is also kind of silly that we never saw any of the great male Aes Sedai survivors of the War of the Shadow commit mass suicide rather than turn into monsters. I mean, seriously, are we to believe that the Lews Therin and his companions didn't realize that saidin was tainted by the Dark One? We do hear that the male channelers feel it every time they touch it.

Is there an excuse by the author why things unfolded as they did? Did those great heroes all turn into selfish morons who clung to life and madness rather than realizing what common sense and human decency would compel them to? Kill themselves before they would murder everybody they knew.

Quote

(from The Strike At Shayol Ghul)
"But that was not the only result, of course. Instead, there was the counterstroke from the Dark One at the moment of sealing, and saidin itself was tainted. Lews Therin and the sixty-eight survivors of the Hundred Companions went insane on the instant. Within days they were leaving trails of death and destruction in their paths. By the time the taint on saidin was discovered, hundreds more male Aes Sedai had been driven mad, and what remained of civilization after the war itself had fallen into chaos. Even informing all the remaining sane male Aes Sedai of the danger was now impossible. That fateful day at Shayol Ghul ended the war, and began the Breaking of the World."

Per the above Lews and the survivors of his attack went mad on the spot, presumably because they were in the actual direct presence of the Dark One at the time of the sealing. Also by this point most of the world was under the control of the Shadow and was already looking pretty apocalyptic even before the actual Breaking began in earnest so the ability to mount some kinda global response / info campaign was pretty limited. That also suggests that if not a majority then certainly a large number of the channellers kicking around the world at that time were darkfriends and thus kinda selfish assholes, so even if accepting (I don't) your abhorrent notion that it would be logical for people to think that suicide would be an appropriate response to this brand new phenomenon they darkfriends out there would probably not go for that.   

We do also know that some of the male Aes Sedai hid out in the Stedding for a long time - the one place where there was no true source, where they couldn't channel and thus wouldn't be a danger to anyone - because they hoped that the taint was a temporary phenomenon that would eventually run its course, which isn't an unreasonable thing to hope. And Indeed the Cleansing does show that the taint was in some sense finite.

Why would everyone immediately think that there was absolutely no hope? Come to the conclusion that the taint was irresistible, inevitable, that the madness couldn't be stopped, couldn't be cured, couldn't be resisted, that they were being, in your words "selfish morons" by not choosing to end their lives, do you really think that that's how people work? We also know that some of the male Aes Sedai continued to work with the women in the breaking in the service of various foretellings - setting up both the Eye of the World and it's pool of clean untainted Saidin (and you'll be pleased to know dying in the process) as well as creating the Stone of Tear and the special ward that protects Callandor which might also have been a suicide mission given the amount of power that'd be needed to build that thing.

 

Also before I go on I really want to say that as someone with more than a little experience with depression and suicidal thoughts the flippancy and callousness with which you seem to be treating this topic, particularly the way you describe people as being "selfish" for not committing suicide in order to protect their loved ones from themselves, is upsetting, disturbing, and frankly pisses me off a fair bit.

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In what world does it make sense that anyone would put hopes in either the Dragon Reborn or various False Dragons?

.... because this is a world where prophecies do come true? Where people believe in the pattern and the wheel weaving and whatnot. Where there is a literal pure evil force that nearly destroyed the world once coming back for round 2 at some point? How is it unrealistic for people to believe in a messiah figure and the coming End of Days and so fourth in a fictional magical world when plenty of people believe in all kinds of religious things in our real world world which contains significantly less actual fucking magic and evidence of true prophecy, predestination, souls, literal forces of good and evil and so on?

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And to be sure - the obvious resolution of this plot would also be that madness was the solution to the problem, that only a madman could defeat the Dark One, that the taint of saidin wasn't something that can or should be overcome (I know they cleanse it in the future) but rather that it was a crucial ingredient in final undoing of the Dark One's plans. Sort of an unintentional mistake he made back when fought against Lews Therin.

Since we aren't caring about spoilers this is... actually the case. Rand's madness gives him access to his memories from his previous incarnation as Lews Therin which are ultimately necessary in his victory.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Per the above Lews and the survivors of his attack went mad on the spot, presumably because they were in the actual direct presence of the Dark One at the time of the sealing. Also by this point most of the world was under the control of the Shadow and was already looking pretty apocalyptic even before the actual Breaking began in earnest so the ability to mount some kinda global response / info campaign was pretty limited. That also suggests that if not a majority then certainly a large number of the channellers kicking around the world at that time were darkfriends and thus kinda selfish assholes, so even if accepting (I don't) your abhorrent notion that it would be logical for people to think that suicide would be an appropriate response to this brand new phenomenon they darkfriends out there would probably not go for that.   

Oh, yes, I forget about the Dragon and companions going mad immediately. In light of the power they must have had this at least explains how the Breaking began. Still, though, kind of silly how Lews Therin is still in some kind of undamaged palace years later when we know that the Prologue must have taken place during an virtual apocalyptic era.

Still, though, as soon as people realized that nothing could be done about the taint and that madness was inevitable collective suicide would definitely have been the rational choice to go. And that includes Darkfriends, considering they, too, had families and friends. Also, we would have to assume that the Dark One being sealed would have cut him off from the real world to nearly the same degree as before the Bore was made (definitely to a much larger degree than during the series where the seals are weakening), so his followers should have been confused with many even repenting their ways, etc.

In the Worldbook Jordan tells us that no Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends survived the Breaking, so we are talking about a pretty long period of time. Generations of mad male channelers would have been born in that era, lived to the time of madness to add their little part to the Breaking ... at the same time it shouldn't have taken the women centuries to figure out what was going on and that they had to kill or gentle the male channelers if they wanted things to return to normal.

To my knowledge, this kind of suicide thing is quite common among the Aiel, where male channelers routinely go to the Blight when they realize what they are to die a heroic death attacking Shayol Ghul. There is always this kind of heroic suicide to go out. I never said they should all open their wrists of jump off a building.

20 minutes ago, Poobah said:

We do also know that some of the male Aes Sedai hid out in the Stedding for a long time - the one place where there was no true source, where they couldn't channel and thus wouldn't be a danger to anyone - because they hoped that the taint was a temporary phenomenon that would eventually run its course, which isn't an unreasonable thing to hope. And Indeed the Cleansing does show that the taint was in some sense finite.

Yes, I know that, and it makes sense that those who aren't mad yet or who do not yet feel they are about to go mad might cling to that hope. There is always hope until there isn't, after all. But if you actual witnessed what your mad peers did and know that that's what's in store for you, too, then you should, eventually, let go of that hope.

20 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Why would everyone immediately think that there was absolutely no hope? Come to the conclusion that the taint was irresistible, inevitable, that the madness couldn't be stopped, couldn't be cured, couldn't be resisted, that they were being, in your words "selfish morons" by not choosing to end their lives, do you really think that that's how people work? We also know that some of the male Aes Sedai continued to work with the women in the breaking in the service of various foretellings - setting up both the Eye of the World and it's pool of clean untainted Saidin (and you'll be pleased to know dying in the process) as well as creating the Stone of Tear and the special ward that protects Callandor which might also have been a suicide mission given the amount of power that'd be needed to build that thing.

I didn't say they should have reached that conclusion at once. But then setting things up for a weirdo prophetic future rather than using what time and power they had to cleanse saidin then and there is kind of odd and, basically, a plot convenience. I mean, the entire Eye of the World thing is just a plot device for Rand - just as Callandor is. And it gets worse by having folks intentionally set things up for him. It may have been much more powerful if he himself found things from earlier Dragon incarnations - not just Lews Therin but whoever they were in the ages before that - to understand who and what he was.

20 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Also before I go on I really want to say that as someone with more than a little experience with depression and suicidal thoughts the flippancy and callousness with which you seem to be treating this topic, particularly the way you describe people as being "selfish" for not committing suicide in order to protect their loved ones from themselves, is upsetting, disturbing, and frankly pisses me off a fair bit.

It is a fantasy series where we have people who are turned into mass murderers and forces of nature running amok agains their own free will. People who actually want to preserve the world, not destroy it, people who love their family and friends and don't want to kill them but, inevitably, will. We are not talking about depression or suicidal thoughts here, but the prospect of being turned into a mad serial killer-travesty version of yourself. The way I understand this thing is that it is basically dementia turning you into a serial killer with superpowers. That is not something you want to be.

Nobody says the first thought when you get diagnosis 'saidin madness' should be to kill yourself. But it should be something that's on the table, especially if you live in the second or third century of the Breaking and know what is going to happen to you.

But we can drop the suicide angle - it is equally odd that the female Aes Sedai did not all turn into Red Ajah, that the society - especially during the Breaking - did not immediately decide to slay every male channeler on sight the moment they realized what they were as soon as people realized or came to believe that there were no cure and that these people might very well be the end of human civilization/the world itself.

How exactly this whole thing could play out if we assume that most male Aes Sedai would have grown mad slowly over a longer period of time if a clear mystery.

20 minutes ago, Poobah said:

.... because this is a world where prophecies do come true? Where people believe in the pattern and the wheel weaving and whatnot. Where there is a literal pure evil force that nearly destroyed the world once coming back for round 2 at some point? How is it unrealistic for people to believe in a messiah figure and the coming End of Days and so fourth in a fictional magical world when plenty of people believe in all kinds of religious things in our real world world which contains significantly less actual fucking magic and evidence of true prophecy, predestination, souls, literal forces of good and evil and so on?

Oh, I would have gone with prophecy being just something you believe in ... but then we reached book 2 and Siuan, Moiraine, and Verin discuss what makes a prophecy a prophecy and how they can know that the writings of the bad guys in the dungeon of Fal Dara are a genuine prophecy. That means prophecy is up to interpretation. And that would also be true for the prophecies about the Dragon because those seem to be rather old prophecies, i.e. prophecies the Aes Sedai read in whatever book contains the Karaethon Cycle. They could believe that those were genuine prophecies - but it would just be a belief, they would have no way of knowing that there were genuine Foretellings, whether they were accurately written down and copied, etc.

And that's basically elitist Aes Sedai knowledge. The common people should know little about those matters. Folks in the Two Rivers believe the Dragon was basically as bad as the Dark One himself. Why shouldn't most people have a similar view?

I mean, it should be much more easy to believe in a female savior in this context right? One who is at least not going to go mad.

20 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Since we aren't caring about spoilers this is... actually the case. Rand's madness gives him access to his memories from his previous incarnation as Lews Therin which are ultimately necessary in his victory.

Okay, but isn't that something that the simple fact that he is a reincarnation of Lews Therin could have given him? Seems kind of cheap to first have Lews Therin's voice as a symptom of his growing madness and then twist that around into an asset.

I'm all for special knowledge from the past being a huge plus for Rand. That makes a lot of sense, actually. But his madness could and should have manifested in different ways, like it did with the other male channelers going mad.

From what I read he also got special anti-madness protection from the Creator - which is also kind of cheap. I can already say that I'd have preferred it if he would have entered into the Last Battle fully mad only to realize then that this was a key element to win the battle.

[Lord Varys]

Insofar as Lews Therin going mad immediately during the Dark One's counterstike:

That's also something that's kind of at odds with the Prologue where Ishamael is somewhat confused that Lews Therin is as far gone as he is prior to Ishamael healing him with the True Power. Ishamael implies that the madness consuming Lews Therin was a gradual process.

He could be wrong there, of course, but it is kind of weird to assume that the Dark One's top dog is kind of confused about his master's counterstrike years after that happened.

At least I was under the assumption that the Prologue takes place some years after the sealing. I could be wrong there, though. I don't remember why I think that.