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Valyrian Steel Weapons(Blackfyre and Dark Sister)


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7 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Dark Sister is actually a longsword, so.....that rules out Dark Sister.

Whoops! looks like I was conflating Blackfyre and Dark Sister. thank you for pointing that out. well at least I raised more questions than I answered. :)

Fun fact: historically speaking in the medieval context, bastards swords and long swords are the same thing in real life, but not in asoiaf, where longswords are used to refer to exclusively one handed blades.

3 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

What do you think happened to Blackfyre

To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe Maelys the monstrous ever wielded it. to me this suggests at the very least the golden company lost possession at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if bloodraven took it from them after the third Blackfyre rebellion where Aegor was captured and sent to the wall, but later escaped. maybe he escaped but the sword didn't. its one possibility at least. 

I still prefer the idea of dark sister Jon vs Blackfyre faegon, but that's just I dream of spring, I suppose...

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11 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

In my head canon there was lucky Ironborn raider who gained VS sword by killing it's previous owner. But later he or one of his descendants lost his head and his sword when he tried to raid Bear Island. So his killer gained nice new sword by killing that unlucky raider. Or Mormonts paid iron price instead of golden one.

But wouldn't such a thing be mentioned? I would think a VS sword being lost would be big news, especially if it's a lord who did such. If you had a VS sword, the tendency would be to show it off....

13 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well the hilt and pommel were damaged in the fire in the Lord Commander's tower and had to be reworked before Mormont gave it to Jon. The rubies would have to have been plucked by Jeor. Maybe he stashed them away in Castle Black somewhere, maybe he had them on his person when he was murdered, maybe he gave them to Aemon. It's never mentioned but it would be neat if the rubies were worked into the wolf eyes of the new pomel. Who knows? The theory has holes in it for sure, but... too many weird questions around Longclaw as Jeor presented it.

There are quite a few odd questions about Longclaw. It's odd that even Ned doesn't recall a VS ancestral sword when he thinks about Ser Jorah. He doesn't think about him leaving his sword behind, as in this:

"Would that I might forget him," Ned said bluntly. The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. Ser Jorah had tried to swell the family coffers by selling some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver. As the Mormonts were bannermen to the Starks, his crime had dishonored the north. Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king's justice. Five years had passed since then.

 

It would be easy to say something like this: "only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king's justice, leaving his Valyrian ancestral sword behind." But he doesn't. 

13 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Bah! Never thought that. You’d think the Martells Would several different kinds considering their wealth. How many VS weapons in the south just Dawn?

Maybe just, one....even the Lannisters for their wealth only had one. The Targaryens are a rarity, with two VS swords. Probably because they were Lords Freeholder, I imagine it helps quite a lot.   As to below the Red Mountains, there aren't any confirmed swords. 

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Fun fact: historically speaking in the medieval context, bastards swords and long swords are the same thing in real life, but not in asoiaf, where longswords are used to refer to exclusively one handed blades.

I did not know that, @Targaryeninkingslanding. Thanks. 

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8 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

 

I still prefer the idea of dark sister Jon vs Blackfyre faegon, but that's just I dream of spring, I suppose...

Fangasm. That was my exact thought too. Ice&FireW Jon vs Aegon VI facing each other with Dark Sister and Blackfyre in their hands. OOOOOHHHHHHHH.

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11 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Fun fact: historically speaking in the medieval context, bastards swords and long swords are the same thing in real life, but not in asoiaf, where longswords are used to refer to exclusively one handed blades.

That might be his RPG roots showing.  I have no medieval history, but I knew what he was talking about the minute he introduced Longclaw because the bastard sword was an AD&D staple back in the dayUntil reading your post I was under the impression that this was all factual.

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5 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It would be easy to say something like this: "only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king's justice, leaving his Valyrian ancestral sword behind." But he doesn't. 

Probably because it’s not that big of a deal.  It’s very doubtful that Eddard went through Bear Island and took an inventory of their possessions.

ETA: I’ve never really understood the fascination in these discussions.  One Valyrian sword is much like another, very sharp, very light, and presumably very hard to break.  What does it matter if Longclaw was once Dark Sister?  They’d both cut the same regardless.  

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13 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I still prefer the idea of dark sister Jon vs Blackfyre faegon, but that's just I dream of spring, I suppose...

Aren't we still doing anagrams?  Dark Sister is clearly Stark Disser (ok, extra s). It's got to go to the other guy. Jon's got to get Blackfyre somehow.

 

OK, not really serious...

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4 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Fangasm. That was my exact thought too. Ice&FireW Jon vs Aegon VI facing each other with Dark Sister and Blackfyre in their hands. OOOOOHHHHHHHH.

yeah it'll be cool and it is plausible in my mind :idea: 

first of all longclaw is not Dark Sister and it's not gonna be in Jon's hand for long. remember when he first held it and felt wrong? well it's fantasy so I thing feeling right regarding swords is important.

right now I think there is a good chance that Aegon somehow gets Blackfyre either through golden company or illyrio who seems to possess things people need( .... talking about dragon eggs....)...anyways that's the only way Blackfyre can come to the story. meanwhile Dark Sister is in the north with bloodraven.. Jon can go get it somehow!

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1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

the bastard sword was an AD&D staple back in the dayUntil reading your post I was under the impression that this was all factual.

My older brother told me I couldn’t play with him and his friends because it was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. I had to just watch and wonder why they rolled dice to hit tacos. 
(Tacos=THAC0)

I had to contend myself with their old regular D&D books. Dreaming of when I’d be cool enough for Advanced.

Thank you for the memory.

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45 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yeah it'll be cool and it is plausible in my mind :idea: 

first of all longclaw is not Dark Sister and it's not gonna be in Jon's hand for long. remember when he first held it and felt wrong? well it's fantasy so I thing feeling right regarding swords is important.

right now I think there is a good chance that Aegon somehow gets Blackfyre either through golden company or illyrio who seems to possess things people need( .... talking about dragon eggs....)...anyways that's the only way Blackfyre can come to the story. meanwhile Dark Sister is in the north with bloodraven.. Jon can go get it somehow!

Yup. Battle of the Blades instead of Battle of the Bastaards

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23 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

And also, how tf do we have 227 Valyrian steel blades and like 7 mentioned in the books? Is Thurgood bluffing or are people really this irresponsible with prized heirlooms and overpowered weapons?

The 227 may have more to do with one of the games in the books than an accurate accounting. Could be 2 and 2 and 7. A point system 110 vs110 with the 7 as pot? 

Map coordinates would be cool but no evidence of that other then my love of treasure maps.

Someone probably has a post. 
No one, The Seven 3-3-1, All one, Pentos-5? and Tyrosh-3?  I’m just spitballing.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Nice to see burgeoning interest in VS. What I'd like to share is that as far as VS blades are concerned, we can eliminate 5 possibilities out of 10 only to get 3 new ones. Some entirely probable, yet unintentionally logical on GRRM's side.

I tried compiling them...

Only time will tell if we ever get answers for some or all or none of them. Crossed fingers, Winds and Dream

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Oh yah.  We have a bit of misunderstanding of the good Maester's inventories.   There are 227 VS blades, but only 15 named swords.   Among those 227 items may be the Celtigar axe, Robet's dagger, catspaw dagger and Caggo's arakh.  The operant word is blades--these are not specifically swords.   We have the swords' names and that sets them apart from the other VS in Westeros.   Blackfyre and Longclaw are bastard swords.   Dark Sister and Widows Wail are much smaller.   I did not play D&D, but I have studied up some on swords and their configurations.   A great sword is close to 6" wide and can be as long as 6'.   Bastard swords are fashioned for single or double hand use measuring as long as 5 to 5.6' long with approximately 4" wide blades.  Long swords are single hand swords measuring from 2.6' to 3.6' long with blade width from 1 to 3".  Men are made differently therefore the designs of their weapons must accommodate them.  (The lengths and widths vary from country to country and era to era--these are general proximations).  

It would be Jon with Longclaw vs. Aegon and Blackfyre, but do we really anticipate Jon will have any time at all to go see a fake king?  Sorry, I can't ever come up with a good reason for Jon to go up against Aegon.    I just figured someone would kick Aegon's butt and Blackfyre would find its way to the true heir.   Nonetheless, these 2 swords matched up would be a sweet thing to read. 

As I recall, lady Forlorn has quite a storied history and Lyn Corbray says she has a thirst for blood or close to that as Dark Sister is also said to possess the same er, dietary craving.  Yet these swords don't match up, LF having reach and width over DS.  I would throw the less discussed Red Rain in with these 2 for its name alone.  What is Red Rain but blood after all?   

Longclaw is a mystery.  The new pommel is made of a pale stone (petrified Weirwood--gotta be!) and garnets for the eyes.  It is the only equal match to Blackfyre.  I think Jorah understood the sword was not his to sell, Lord or not.   Jeor was already at the Wall when Jorah split for Essos, so one of the Mormonts sent it to him.  But why not hang on to it?  Could it be that LC is not a Mormont sword at all, but only in their family's safekeeping for another perhaps more noble house?  Were I Jorah I would not have said a peep about Longclaw to Dany.   I would have been too ashamed.   

Lamentation and Brightroar are more gone than poor old Ice.  Shadoq's arakh may well be Caggo's arakh, but without a name I can't imagine it matters very much.  We have pretty much figured out where BF and DS are and accept that they are still in play, but what about Vigilance, Truth and Orphan-Maker?  We got the tiniest bit about Truth and OM in F&B, but nothing further about Vigilance.  Did the Hightowers manage to hang on to it?  We don't see OM after Unwin skittles back to the Reach.   The Manderleys left the Reach a couple of thousand years prior to the Peake er diminishing.  So where is it?  OM is noted to be black, indicating it's been in some real fires, but no  dragon riders wielding it.  What turned it black and where the heck is it?  We have clues about Truth being in Gull Town, but with whom after all this time?  

Euron is poised to gain the use of Nightfall, which is perfect, but Red Rain is still on the Iron Islands--for whom?  All I have for that is Theon can still wield a longsword effectively as we read at Moat Cailin--who else would even want to go there to get the nasty thing?  

What are we to make of Needle as a named Westerosi sword most definitely NOT Valyrian Steel? 

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15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

We have a bit of misunderstanding of the good Maester's inventories.   There are 227 VS blades, but only 15 named swords.   Among those 227 items may be the Celtigar axe, Robet's dagger, catspaw dagger and Caggo's arakh. 

It’s very, very doubtful that there are only 15 named Valyrian swords in Westeros.  There are just 15 swords that we’ve learned the name of through the course of the story.  Undoubtably many other noble houses have Valyrian swords that have been passed down, they’ve just never come up in the course of the story.

As for the 227 blades, I would guess that the majority of these are probably swords.  If you’re going to pay that much for a weapon, especially in Westeros, it’s probably going to be a weapon with the greatest prestige value.  It’s apparent that swords are the most common symbols of military might in Westeros.

There are probably some Houses that value the axe more symbolically than the sword, and perhaps they’d shell out the money for a Valyrian axe.  And I suppose if you can’t afford a sword, perhaps a Valyrian knife might be a consolation gift.  But my guess is it would hold so little prestige value, you’d probably just spend your money on something else.

And I wouldn’t include Caggo’s arakh in the 227 Valyrian blades in Westeros.  I would include that amongst the thousands of Valyrian blades in the world.

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The Valyrian steel blades that remain in the world might number in the thousands, but in the Seven Kingdoms there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood’s Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from the annals of history.

 

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On 10/1/2021 at 6:35 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Valyrian steel is no mere possession, though. 

It’s an expensive possession, but still a possession.  And Eddard, as far as I can tell, had no interest in taking any of House Mormont’s possessions, just taking in Jorah to answer for his crimes.  So why would he inventory any of House Mormont’s possessions, even their expensive ones?

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5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s very, very doubtful that there are only 15 named Valyrian swords in Westeros.  There are just 15 swords that we’ve learned the name of through the course of the story.  Undoubtably many other noble houses have Valyrian swords that have been passed down, they’ve just never come up in the course of the story.

As for the 227 blades, I would guess that the majority of these are probably swords.  If you’re going to pay that much for a weapon, especially in Westeros, it’s probably going to be a weapon with the greatest prestige value.  It’s apparent that swords are the most common symbols of military might in Westeros.

There are probably some Houses that value the axe more symbolically than the sword, and perhaps they’d shell out the money for a Valyrian axe.  And I suppose if you can’t afford a sword, perhaps a Valyrian knife might be a consolation gift.  But my guess is it would hold so little prestige value, you’d probably just spend your money on something else.

And I wouldn’t include Caggo’s arakh in the 227 Valyrian blades in Westeros.  I would include that amongst the thousands of Valyrian blades in the world.

 

As you will, but blades is a broad sort of description whereas sword is specific.   Of course I am of the mind that there really are only the 15 named VS in that they are the only named VS we have anywhere.  Caggo's arakh is listed among the Westerosi VS booty, but so was Truth before we got F&B.  This is where Shadoq's story become very interesting.  Nonetheless, I agree the arakh probably matters very little.   This here axe belongs to a Valyrian family which I find intriguing.  I hope it joins the story in some meaningful way, but it doesn't have a name and again matters little overall. 

The number of named swords become important (imho) when Tyrion recounts Tywin's quest for VS and we are told he approached 3 impoverished families for their swords.  If there really were more named VS swords in Westeros I think Tywin would have approached more than 3 families.   He really wanted a sword to replace Brightroar.  Tywin lost a brother in a quest to recover Brightroar.  Why go questing if you can just replace it with another?  We can assume he approached Lyn Corbray and possibly someone from the Iron Islands or even Bear Island, but I have not been able to cross their paths leaving me to conclude it is 2 or our 3 our missing swords he attempted to deal for.  

Even 227 blades is a miniscule number considering the population and wealth of Westeros over the years.  Robert only had 1 little dagger which I seem to recall was a gift to him.   If swords were available Robert would have likely had one.   But all he had was a dagger.   Someone considered this a suitable gift for a king so perhaps not just a consolation prize.

While all you've explained may be precisely what is at work in ASOIAF, I think these are magic swords and therefore have a specific role to play.  Hopefully we will learn the absolute truth of the matter someday when the books are done.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yes you are no doubt right in this.   You know how I like to look for much more in the named swords.   

I do too, it's the only named non VS blade. But if George is too confused to finish the series as it is now, he may cut down any ideas for minor intrigues like this. Hoping otherwise 

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