Valyrian Steel Weapons(Blackfyre and Dark Sister)

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Joffrey has a few named blades, too, before he gets his VS sword.

Children name their swords, adults don't bother? Jaime doesn't even name his horses, he gets through so many.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Joffrey has a few named blades, too, before he gets his VS sword.

They don't exist anymore, do they? I mean they existed just to establish his character arc (spoilt, possesive over 'manly' things like the weapons and scoffs at 'books') and are of no use at the bottom of a river or cast away.

But Needle is so much more. And unique, like Arya

[The Wondering Wolf]

29 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

They don't exist anymore, do they?

Well, at least the second one most likely is still in the Red Keep. Anyway, just wanted to point out there are other named non VS swords than needle, do with it what you like.

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I do too, it's the only named non VS blade. But if George is too confused to finish the series as it is now, he may cut down any ideas for minor intrigues like this. Hoping otherwise 

As our friend below is good enough to remind us, there are other non VS named blades.  Joffrey likes his wicked sword names, but we also have storied swords such as Just Maid and of course Dawn.  So Needle has a place as a most unique piece of weaponry.   As you have said, this could be no more than a reminder to Arya of her true identity.  Still there are so few named swords in this story where we are drowned in named characters.   It really is a minor intrigue!

5 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Joffrey has a few named blades, too, before he gets his VS sword.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Children name their swords, adults don't bother? Jaime doesn't even name his horses, he gets through so many.

Hey good to see you.   Doesn't Jamie get asked what is honor during his conversation with Blackfish at River Run and thinks to himself Honor is a horse?   Outside of that single instance, I can't think of another named horse than Stranger/Driftwood.  

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Well, at least the second one most likely is still in the Red Keep. Anyway, just wanted to point out there are other named non VS swords than needle, do with it what you like.

Of no consequence, and just 2, one drowned (drowned steel, sounds nice) and the other, well, the author wanted to fill a named sword before giving Widow's Wail to Joff. 

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Joffrey likes his wicked sword names, but we also have storied swords such as Just Maid and of course Dawn

The former is most likely a myth IMO and the latter is forged from the heart of the star, probably an extraterrestrial element, unknown ore. Maybe same as Lightbringer, but lightbringer leans towards Vayrian steel in the description of its making and it also would have been mentioned somewhere if Lightbringer had crystal dawn like properties

 

[TheLastWolf]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Children name their swords, adults don't bother? Jaime doesn't even name his horses, he gets through so many.

Hey good to see you.

Finally a nice thread with great members (not counting myself lol, I've been warned too many times for misdemeanors aplenty) after a long time

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Doesn't Jamie get asked what is honor during his conversation with Blackfish at River Run and thinks to himself Honor is a horse?   Outside of that single instance, I can't think of another named horse than Stranger/Driftwood

Right as ever CF, Jaime dresses Honor in the colors of the KG and Glory in the Lannister colors. Lewys Piper named Honor, nice squire. Lastly till the siege of riverrun but now meeting Brienne....derailment alert sorry

One last horse-y thing to be noted, Jaime mulls over the fact that most of his horses die why bother naming them but goes ahead and names them, optimism? Now that LSH- Ok different thread for horses later

[Curled Finger]

Just now, TheLastWolf said:

Of no consequence, and just 2, one drowned (drowned steel, sounds nice) and the other, well, the author wanted to fill a named sword before giving Widow's Wail to Joff. 

The former is most likely a myth IMO and the latter is forged from the heart of the star, probably an extraterrestrial element, unknown ore. Maybe same as Lightbringer, but lightbringer leans towards Vayrian steel in the description of its making and it also would have been mentioned somewhere if Lightbringer had crystal dawn like properties

 

Lightbringer!   Man I completely forgot Lightbringer.  Was reading back and Springwatch made the point that perhaps it is the children who name swords perhaps in keeping the the old folklore of named swords like Just Maid...but Dawn has been around perhaps as long as 10,000 years.   Who knows how long ancestral Ice was about, but Lady Forlorn goes back to the Andals.   I have to think this naming of swords is a big deal to someone.   My friend @Seams has written some bitchen things about Ilyn Payne's cool sword Tywin give to him after Ned's execution.   Read it if you can find it because this really is quite a sword.  Payne is the executioner--I would think if any common man had the privilege of naming his tool of the trade it would be the King's Justice.  

Honing in on Ice as the first named sword we have of the 1st Men I have to think this naming swords is a thing, though I am unsure what exactly.   We've had many conversations and you know i think the names mean something whether they point to some characteristic of their ultimate wielder or use or something I have not yet imagined.   Could be a sword called Just Maid from myth and legend points to Brienne.  Ice I guess could point to the cold north wars with the Others and Dawn could certainly point to salvation and warmth.   I love how these 2 names are at such odds with each other given the Starks do seem to be the heroes of the story.    

[TheLastWolf]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

My friend @Seams has written some bitchen things about Ilyn Payne's cool sword Tywin give to him after Ned's execution.   Read it if you can find it because this really is quite a sword.  Payne is the executioner--I would think if any common man had the privilege of naming his tool of the trade it would be the King's Justice. 

Tongueless, interesting. Anyway it became OK and WW, anagrams anybody?

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 We've had many conversations and you know i think the names mean something whether they point to some characteristic of their ultimate wielder or use or something I have not yet imagined.

Of course!

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Could be a sword called Just Maid from myth and legend points to Brienne.  Ice I guess could point to the cold north wars with the Others and Dawn could certainly point to salvation and warmth.   I love how these 2 names are at such odds with each other given the Starks do seem to be the heroes of the story.    

My guess is Arya loses Needle after returning to Westeros (sanity factor so it has to survive with her till then), not misplace-lose but destroyed-lose. Dragonfire or some shit. So she claims some other VS blade and names it for her lost blade. Dark Sister is a candidate

[Seams]

@Curled Finger You are so kind to recall my thoughts on Ser Ilyn's sword. (Your description of them as bitchen thoughts truly makes my day.) It's been a long time since I wrote about that. I think it came up because I was intrigued that Ser Ilyn is mute but his sword is covered with runes. (The dagger on the table by the Widow of the Waterfront also bears runes. We also see them on things like the House Royce sigil, Tristifer Mudd's tomb and the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter.) 

Just to clarify, with regard to some comments in this thread: the silver sword Ser Ilyn brings to Joffrey's wedding feast is not the same as Ice, which he used to behead Ned Stark. Sansa is distressed when she sees the silver sword and it is implied that she was expecting Ser Ilyn would have the sword Ice in his possession. The earlier Tyrion POV already informed readers that Ice has been melted down and supplemented with red steel to make Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. 

I suspect that Gendry's sword (unnamed, as far as we know) is an important clue for us about Ser Ilyn's sword. Gendry stabs his self-forged sword through the back of Biter's head, killing him before he can do more damage to the badly-wounded and permanently maimed Brienne. At that moment, Brienne thinks it is a long tongue she is seeing coming at her from Biter's mouth. In fact, it is the tip of Gendry's sword. 

Somewhere in this forum I have seen some crazy theories that there is wordplay behind some of the literary symbolism in the books. If wordplay is a valid hint for us, the "sword/words" notion could also be important in understanding the significance of both sword names and swords that "talk" with runes or because they are mistaken for tongues. 

Rorge and Forge

There are some places where GRRM goes to deliberate effort in telling us who made a weapon, describing a smith in great detail: Donal Noye made Robert's warhammer (that killed Rhaegar), Tobho Mott made Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, Mikken made Needle. I think these literal examples of linked smiths and weapons are intended to help us spot symbolic smiths and weapons. For instance, the crazy wordplay notion led me to question whether "forge" is linked to the name "Rorge." We know that Rorge selected and trained Biter to be a fighter in the fighting pits - is this analogous to Rorge "forging" a weapon? And I have written elsewhere about the likelihood of a "biter" and "bitter" link, possibly tying Biter to Bittersteel, a person with a sword name.

What does it mean that Robert killed Rhaegar and his natural son, Gendry, killed a possible stand-in for the Targaryen bastard Bittersteel? (Who is strongly associated with the sword Blackfyre?)

What does it mean that Tobho Mott also "forged" Gendry into a smith, taking him on as an apprentice? Is Gendry a sword, too? I think there are many instances where we see an older generation turning young people into weapons - just think of the Unsullied, but I also think that children playing in the Winterfell crypt are being "forged" - and the relationship of the smith and the weapon is significant.

Wordplay might lead us to another "Truth": Forge --> Rorge --> Rogare. The sword "Truth" was originally associated with the banking house that married into both House Targaryen and House Martell. If GRRM wants us to link "words" and "sword," a piece of the puzzle might be hidden in this bloodline. Why would the forge of Truth be introduced into the story at that point in history, and how does Truth remain a part of the Targaryen and/or Martell stories in the current events? (Or does the disappearance of Truth mean that these houses had the chance to own that word, but it somehow escaped their grasp?)

Aside: Ser Arlan of Pennytree loses a nephew and heir named Roger just before taking on Dunk as his new squire. I suspect that the death of Roger represents the "forging" of Dunk to become a next-generation weapon. 

Needle

Some of the comments in this thread reference the sword Needle. Aside from the sewing motif that runs through the books, I had an early guess that Needle might be a portmanteau of "Ned" and "Lyanna". Mikken has forged these two powerful presences into one weapon and Jon Snow gives this precious blade to his dearly-loved Arya. Ned finds Arya with the sword, recognizes it as Mikken's work and decides to provide sword-fighting lessons for his younger daughter. 

There is also a clear link between the sword Needle and pine needles, sentinel pines and the shattered sword of Ser Waymar that is splintered and pierces his eye just as he is being wighted.

But lately, I think there may be an added layer of meaning that can help us understand the significance of Needle. I had finally connected in my head the names "Tanselle" and "Nettles." (I realize they are not exact anagrams but, as with chains of linked words like the "forge" series, above, I think GRRM gives us "almost" anagrams as part of his larger use of puns, rhymes, related motifs and anagrams.) Needle is a slant rhyme with Nettles. Aside from the similar letters of their names, Tanselle and Nettles are both unexpected dragon operators: Tanselle manipulates the dragon puppet in The Hedge Knight and Nettles becomes a dragonseed rider of the dragon known as Sheepstealer. Both women are also lost loves of Targaryen princes. (Dunk, I believe is a secret Blackfyre and Daemon is an uncle to the direct line of Targaryen heirs.)

The disappearances of Tanselle and Nettles may foreshadow what fate has in store for the sword Needle or for Arya.

Joffrey's Three Swords

Quote

Of no consequence, and just 2, one drowned (drowned steel, sounds nice) and the other, well, the author wanted to fill a named sword before giving Widow's Wail to Joff. 

I don't agree that Joffrey's swords are insignificant. 

Eyes and Ice

You knew I would have to bring this up, didn't you?

Thinking about the "words" and "sword" wordplay pair caused a tiny recent connection in my feeble brain:

Quote

She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .

"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. (Clash, Catelyn IV)

Quote

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word. (Feast, Brienne VIII)

Brienne and Renly are closely linked and Brienne carried Renly's sword from the tent when she and Catelyn escaped after Renly's death. When she is being hanged by the Brotherhood Without Banners, Brienne has a choice of two words: noose or sword. Spoiler: GRRM has revealed that the word she chose was "sword." Taken together, Renly's last word and Brienne's "last" word would be cold + sword. When you think of a cold sword, which of the named swords in the books come to mind? 

Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart was present at both the death of Renly and the hanging of Brienne. I haven't connected all the dots, but I think we are seeing Catelyn / LS "reforging" the sword Ice. Even though she didn't kill Renly, there are a number of parallels between Catelyn and Melisandre, who probably did create the shadow that killed Renly. Turning Brienne into a cold sword may be Lady Stoneheart's way of producing a magic weapon to fight back against the shadow weapons conjured by Melisandre. 

But there are many other symbolic / personified versions of the sword Ice in the books, if the nutty theories about wordplay and literary analysis are close to the bullseye. 

Other named weapons and related symbols

To understand the sword names and purposes, I think we have to look for linked clues outside of the narrow category of named swords. For instance, I have noted elsewhere that "Lamentation" might anagram to "Attain Lemon" and would therefore be linked to Dany' memory of the lemon tree, Sansa's love of lemon cakes, the yellow cloak worn by Lem Lemoncloak, etc. There might also be a link to Mole's Town = two lemons = lost women. 

Aside from named swords, we have named weapons such as the whip called The Harpy's Fingers and the trebuchets known as the Three Whores. Direwolves, dragons and ships are also part of the named weapons symbolism. 

We also have clues such as Roose saying that Ramsay fights like a butcher and one of Ramsay's blades described as a cleaver. It's not a named weapon, per se, but it tells us that we should probably compare Ramsay to King Cleon and other references to Butcher Kings. Mycah is the butcher's boy and Hot Pie is also described at one point as carrying a sword that looks like a cleaver. Dany envisions a king with a wolf's head and a mutton scepter. By examining the large motif of meat, we could eventually illuminate the meaning behind the cleaver swords and butcher kings. 

Joffrey's sword Heart Eater is probably linked to Dany eating the stallion's heart as part of her pregnancy ritual. Sansa kisses Joffrey's sword and then later feels butterflies in her tummy - a symbolic pregnancy? 

So a fuller understanding of the purpose and destinies of the named swords can come from casting a wider net.

[TheLastWolf]

19 hours ago, Seams said:

@Curled Finger You are so kind to recall my thoughts on Ser Ilyn's sword. (Your description of them as bitchen thoughts truly makes my day.) It's been a long time since I wrote about that. I think it came up because I was intrigued that Ser Ilyn is mute but his sword is covered with runes. (The dagger on the table by the Widow of the Waterfront also bears runes. We also see them on things like the House Royce sigil, Tristifer Mudd's tomb and the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter.) 

Just to clarify, with regard to some comments in this thread: the silver sword Ser Ilyn brings to Joffrey's wedding feast is not the same as Ice, which he used to behead Ned Stark. Sansa is distressed when she sees the silver sword and it is implied that she was expecting Ser Ilyn would have the sword Ice in his possession. The earlier Tyrion POV already informed readers that Ice has been melted down and supplemented with red steel to make Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. 

I suspect that Gendry's sword (unnamed, as far as we know) is an important clue for us about Ser Ilyn's sword. Gendry stabs his self-forged sword through the back of Biter's head, killing him before he can do more damage to the badly-wounded and permanently maimed Brienne. At that moment, Brienne thinks it is a long tongue she is seeing coming at her from Biter's mouth. In fact, it is the tip of Gendry's sword. 

Somewhere in this forum I have seen some crazy theories that there is wordplay behind some of the literary symbolism in the books. If wordplay is a valid hint for us, the "sword/words" notion could also be important in understanding the significance of both sword names and swords that "talk" with runes or because they are mistaken for tongues. 

Rorge and Forge

There are some places where GRRM goes to deliberate effort in telling us who made a weapon, describing a smith in great detail: Donal Noye made Robert's warhammer (that killed Rhaegar), Tobho Mott made Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, Mikken made Needle. I think these literal examples of linked smiths and weapons are intended to help us spot symbolic smiths and weapons. For instance, the crazy wordplay notion led me to question whether "forge" is linked to the name "Rorge." We know that Rorge selected and trained Biter to be a fighter in the fighting pits - is this analogous to Rorge "forging" a weapon? And I have written elsewhere about the likelihood of a "biter" and "bitter" link, possibly tying Biter to Bittersteel, a person with a sword name.

What does it mean that Robert killed Rhaegar and his natural son, Gendry, killed a possible stand-in for the Targaryen bastard Bittersteel? (Who is strongly associated with the sword Blackfyre?)

What does it mean that Tobho Mott also "forged" Gendry into a smith, taking him on as an apprentice? Is Gendry a sword, too? I think there are many instances where we see an older generation turning young people into weapons - just think of the Unsullied, but I also think that children playing in the Winterfell crypt are being "forged" - and the relationship of the smith and the weapon is significant.

Wordplay might lead us to another "Truth": Forge --> Rorge --> Rogare. The sword "Truth" was originally associated with the banking house that married into both House Targaryen and House Martell. If GRRM wants us to link "words" and "sword," a piece of the puzzle might be hidden in this bloodline. Why would the forge of Truth be introduced into the story at that point in history, and how does Truth remain a part of the Targaryen and/or Martell stories in the current events? (Or does the disappearance of Truth mean that these houses had the chance to own that word, but it somehow escaped their grasp?)

Aside: Ser Arlan of Pennytree loses a nephew and heir named Roger just before taking on Dunk as his new squire. I suspect that the death of Roger represents the "forging" of Dunk to become a next-generation weapon. 

Needle

Some of the comments in this thread reference the sword Needle. Aside from the sewing motif that runs through the books, I had an early guess that Needle might be a portmanteau of "Ned" and "Lyanna". Mikken has forged these two powerful presences into one weapon and Jon Snow gives this precious blade to his dearly-loved Arya. Ned finds Arya with the sword, recognizes it as Mikken's work and decides to provide sword-fighting lessons for his younger daughter. 

There is also a clear link between the sword Needle and pine needles, sentinel pines and the shattered sword of Ser Waymar that is splintered and pierces his eye just as he is being wighted.

But lately, I think there may be an added layer of meaning that can help us understand the significance of Needle. I had finally connected in my head the names "Tanselle" and "Nettles." (I realize they are not exact anagrams but, as with chains of linked words like the "forge" series, above, I think GRRM gives us "almost" anagrams as part of his larger use of puns, rhymes, related motifs and anagrams.) Needle is a slant rhyme with Nettles. Aside from the similar letters of their names, Tanselle and Nettles are both unexpected dragon operators: Tanselle manipulates the dragon puppet in The Hedge Knight and Nettles becomes a dragonseed rider of the dragon known as Sheepstealer. Both women are also lost loves of Targaryen princes. (Dunk, I believe is a secret Blackfyre and Daemon is an uncle to the direct line of Targaryen heirs.)

The disappearances of Tanselle and Nettles may foreshadow what fate has in store for the sword Needle or for Arya.

Joffrey's Three Swords

I don't agree that Joffrey's swords are insignificant. 

Eyes and Ice

You knew I would have to bring this up, didn't you?

Thinking about the "words" and "sword" wordplay pair caused a tiny recent connection in my feeble brain:

Brienne and Renly are closely linked and Brienne carried Renly's sword from the tent when she and Catelyn escaped after Renly's death. When she is being hanged by the Brotherhood Without Banners, Brienne has a choice of two words: noose or sword. Spoiler: GRRM has revealed that the word she chose was "sword." Taken together, Renly's last word and Brienne's "last" word would be cold + sword. When you think of a cold sword, which of the named swords in the books come to mind? 

Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart was present at both the death of Renly and the hanging of Brienne. I haven't connected all the dots, but I think we are seeing Catelyn / LS "reforging" the sword Ice. Even though she didn't kill Renly, there are a number of parallels between Catelyn and Melisandre, who probably did create the shadow that killed Renly. Turning Brienne into a cold sword may be Lady Stoneheart's way of producing a magic weapon to fight back against the shadow weapons conjured by Melisandre. 

But there are many other symbolic / personified versions of the sword Ice in the books, if the nutty theories about wordplay and literary analysis are close to the bullseye. 

Other named weapons and related symbols

To understand the sword names and purposes, I think we have to look for linked clues outside of the narrow category of named swords. For instance, I have noted elsewhere that "Lamentation" might anagram to "Attain Lemon" and would therefore be linked to Dany' memory of the lemon tree, Sansa's love of lemon cakes, the yellow cloak worn by Lem Lemoncloak, etc. There might also be a link to Mole's Town = two lemons = lost women. 

Aside from named swords, we have named weapons such as the whip called The Harpy's Fingers and the trebuchets known as the Three Whores. Direwolves, dragons and ships are also part of the named weapons symbolism. 

We also have clues such as Roose saying that Ramsay fights like a butcher and one of Ramsay's blades described as a cleaver. It's not a named weapon, per se, but it tells us that we should probably compare Ramsay to King Cleon and other references to Butcher Kings. Mycah is the butcher's boy and Hot Pie is also described at one point as carrying a sword that looks like a cleaver. Dany envisions a king with a wolf's head and a mutton scepter. By examining the large motif of meat, we could eventually illuminate the meaning behind the cleaver swords and butcher kings. 

Joffrey's sword Heart Eater is probably linked to Dany eating the stallion's heart as part of her pregnancy ritual. Sansa kisses Joffrey's sword and then later feels butterflies in her tummy - a symbolic pregnancy? 

So a fuller understanding of the purpose and destinies of the named swords can come from casting a wider net.

Well as Shitmouth said "Bugger me with a bloody spear"...you exceed reputations Seams!

That Joff Ahai was eye opening