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Potential clues to a big secret, need your help: Ned, storm, baby, coins, Walgrave, Wylas, Wylla


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"This child king commands the wealth of Casterly Rock and the power of Highgarden. He has the Boltons and the Freys." Lord Godric rubbed his chin. "Still … in this world only winter is certain. Ned Stark told my father that, here in this very hall."

"Ned Stark was here?"

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

So Ned left the "drowned fisherman's daughter" a "bag of silver" and "a bastard baby" in her belly, and she named him Jon Snow?

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"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Well...

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Inside, Pate had found a bag of silver stags, a lock of yellow hair tied up in a ribbon, a painted miniature of a woman who resembled Walgrave (even to her mustache), and a knight's gauntlet made of lobstered steel. The gauntlet had belonged to a prince, Walgrave claimed, though he could no longer seem to recall which one. When Pate shook it, the key fell out onto the floor.

A bag of silver stags. Note how Ned was at Sweetsister where he supposedly left the bag of silver at the start of Robert's Rebellion, so presumably the money to make his way home had been given to Ned in the Stormlands, hence silver stags would match.

Some believe Walgrave is the father of maester Walys, because of the similarity of the maester's name and his father being a maester, his mother being a Hightower girl:

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"That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from … but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow … we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he—"

Walgrave, Walys, Wylla.

A painted picture of a woman who looks like Walgrave disguised as a woman.

A lock of blond hair tied up in a ribbon.

Ned leaving a bag of coins and a baby bastard to the "drowned fisherman's daughter" during a storm.

Anyone else thinks there might be a relation to all of this?

Walgrave or Walys (who might look like Walgrave) would have disguised himself as a woman to help Ned escape Sweetsister, and he was left with a bag of silver stags coins and a baby, presumably expected to now make his way to some safe location. The story that the father of the girl drowned because of a storm may or may not be true; the man could have been killed to keep a secret, or was in on it, or didn't exist.

Walgrave or Walys would have traveled disguised as a woman to bring the baby to safety somewhere. Eventually he ends up among highborn people, hence the painting portrait made of him. This portrait and the silver stags end up in Walgrave's lockbox. The lock of blond hair? Could be of the baby, or a Targaryen or Dayne, or else unrelated.

Note that we do not know what happened to Walys. He was replaced by Luwin, who delivered all of Catelyn's children, so he disappeared at some point between the moment Rickard went south and before Catelyn gave birth.

Just some food for thought, I can't draw any conclusions, but maybe others can chime in?

Edit: BTW for those wondering about the glove, some say it may have been Oberyn. The only thing I could think of is:

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"I yield, ser," a different knight called out, farther down the river. "Yield. Ser knight, I yield to you. My pledge, here, here." The man lay in a puddle of black water, offering up a lobstered gauntlet in token of submission.

Maybe the glove was obtained for winning a fight against someone else. Rhaegar was probably not a great fighter, he had to learn to fight late according to what we know.

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He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

Edit2: I always found this curious and wondered if it meant Jon was older than we think

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"He must have crawled away from the others," Jon said.

"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind.

The eyes take some time to open, so Ghost's eyes being already opened would imply he was born some time before them. Just another potential clue...

Edit3: I am really starting to wonder if Ned's dreams about the Tower of Joy aren't a bunch of lies, put into his head by a dream-manipulator. Something doesn't add up...

Edited by Egged
removed mistaken debunking
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4 hours ago, Egged said:

So Ned left the "drowned fisherman's daughter" a "bag of silver" and "a bastard baby" in her belly, and she named him Jon Snow?

Well...

A bag of silver stags. Note how Ned was at Sweetsister where he supposedly left the bag of silver at the start of Robert's Rebellion, so presumably the money to make his way home had been given to Ned in the Stormlands, hence silver stags would match.

Some believe Walgrave is the father of maester Walys, because of the similarity of the maester's name and his father being a maester, his mother being a Hightower girl:

Walgrave, Walys, Wylla.

A painted picture of a woman who looks like Walgrave disguised as a woman.

A lock of blond hair tied up in a ribbon.

Ned leaving a bag of coins and a baby bastard to the "drowned fisherman's daughter" during a storm.

Anyone else thinks there might be a relation to all of this?

Walgrave or Walys (who might look like Walgrave) would have disguised himself as a woman to help Ned escape Sweetsister, and he was left with a bag of silver stags coins and a baby, presumably expected to now make his way to some safe location. The story that the father of the girl drowned because of a storm may or may not be true; the man could have been killed to keep a secret, or was in on it, or didn't exist.

Walgrave or Walys would have traveled disguised as a woman to bring the baby to safety somewhere. Eventually he ends up among highborn people, hence the painting portrait made of him. This portrait and the silver stags end up in Walgrave's lockbox. The lock of blond hair? Could be of the baby, or a Targaryen or Dayne, or else unrelated.

Note that we do not know what happened to Walys. He was replaced by Luwin, who delivered all of Catelyn's children, so he disappeared at some point between the moment Rickard went south and before Catelyn gave birth.

Just some food for thought, I can't draw any conclusions, but maybe others can chime in?

Edit: BTW for those wondering about the glove, some say it may have been Oberyn. The only thing I could think of is:

Maybe the glove was obtained for winning a fight against someone else. Rhaegar was probably not a great fighter, he had to learn to fight late according to what we know.

Edit2: I always found this curious and wondered if it meant Jon was older than we think

The eyes take some time to open, so Ghost's eyes being already opened would imply he was born some time before them. Just another potential clue...

Edit3: I am really starting to wonder if Ned's dreams about the Tower of Joy aren't a bunch of lies, put into his head by a dream-manipulator. Something doesn't add up...

What I think you are trying to say is the following:

Walgrave is the father of Walys, His mother was a Hightower girl (probably The Mad Maid Malora Hightower) 

Walys disappearance from Winterfell is still unknown, he is most likely alive and going by Haldon Halfmaester. 

Wylla was Jon Snows milk mother, he had a brother: Aegon. Going by Young Griff. 

Ned swapped Aegon for Jon; Jon swapped a baby as well (both Dayne babies. Mance is Arthur Dayne)

Father like son.

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2 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

What I think you are trying to say is the following:

Walgrave is the father of Walys, His mother was a Hightower girl (probably The Mad Maid Malora Hightower) 

Walys disappearance from Winterfell is still unknown, he is most likely alive and going by Haldon Halfmaester. 

Wylla was Jon Snows milk mother, he had a brother: Aegon. Going by Young Griff. 

Ned swapped Aegon for Jon; Jon swapped a baby as well (both Dayne babies. Mance is Arthur Dayne)

Father like son.

I wonder. I have no idea. We have a lot of characters that are potentially creating a parallel to the past too.

We have Rhaegar, Arthur, and Oswell finding Lyanna "10 leagues from Harrenhal", which is very close to Maidenpool.

We have Rhaegar (Frey), Jared, and Symond and a Wylis at White Harbor when they bring the bones of Wendel. And a Wylla. Wylis is sent to White Harbor by Maiden Pool.

How did Brandon's bones end up at Winterfell? Could Rhaegar and co. have been sent to Maidenpool to send them north, then on the way back stumbled on Lyanna heading to King's Landing to catch up to her brother and father to stop them?

It's all weird...

Let's see.

Maybe Lyanna was known to be pregnant some time after the Harrenhal tourney (this would have been kept hidden by Rickard/Brandon, Benjen would have known too). She eventually flees Winterfell because of the implications of having gotten pregnant out of wedlock. Walys comes along with Lyanna for her sake and the baby's (or future baby) disguised as a woman (note that Luwin delivered all of Cat's children, but Walys convinced Rickard to have Brandon marry Cat, so Walys disappeared somewhere in between those events). This departure by Lyanna is conveyed her having been kidnapped, by Rhaegar no less, who by now is probably expected to be the father.

Brandon goes to King's Landing all angry, is arrested, and eventually Rickard is summoned. Both die.

Note that Lyanna was supposedly found ten leagues from Harrenhal, by Rhaegar and Arthur and Oswell. This is close to Maidenpool. Did she give birth? Did she give birth before or after she was found? After seems very unlikely. Did Walys take the baby away and flee by Maidenpool to bring it back to Winterfell, eventually meeting up with Ned, telling him the truth and Ned sending him away with a bag of silver stags to safekeep the child elsewhere than the north? Maybe Ned didn't believe him?

So Walys then eventually ends up among highborns, and his portrait is painted while still under the cover of his fake identity. He eventually sends it to his father, the only portrait he has of himself. And a lock of blond hair tied in a ribbon...

BTW for the gauntlet, some say it may have been Oberyn. The only thing I could think of is:

Quote

"I yield, ser," a different knight called out, farther down the river. "Yield. Ser knight, I yield to you. My pledge, here, here." The man lay in a puddle of black water, offering up a lobstered gauntlet in token of submission.

Which makes me think of how Rhaegar learned to fight late in life. Could he have given his gauntlet to someone training him at some point when he lost, early in his training days?

I'm wondering at this point if all the items aren't to "back up a story", sort of proofs that Walys had sent his father to try and convince him of the truth of what he may have told or written him.

I don't know. My head is pounding. So many possibilities.

But there is something going on...

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4 minutes ago, Egged said:

I wonder. I have no idea. We have a lot of characters that are potentially creating a parallel to the past too.

We have Rhaegar, Arthur, and Oswell finding Lyanna "10 leagues from Harrenhal", which is very close to Maidenpool.

We have Rhaegar (Frey), Jared, and Symond and a Wylis at White Harbor when they bring the bones of Wendel. And a Wylla. Wylis is sent to White Harbor by Maiden Pool.

How did Brandon's bones end up at Winterfell? Could Rhaegar and co. have been sent to Maidenpool to send them north, then on the way back stumbled on Lyanna heading to King's Landing to catch up to her brother and father to stop them?

It's all weird...

Let's see.

Maybe Lyanna was known to be pregnant some time after the Harrenhal tourney (this would have been kept hidden by Rickard/Brandon, Benjen would have known too). She eventually flees Winterfell because of the implications of having gotten pregnant out of wedlock. Walys comes along with Lyanna for her sake and the baby's (or future baby) disguised as a woman (note that Luwin delivered all of Cat's children, but Walys convinced Rickard to have Brandon marry Cat, so Walys disappeared somewhere in between those events). This departure by Lyanna is conveyed her having been kidnapped, by Rhaegar no less, who by now is probably expected to be the father.

Brandon goes to King's Landing all angry, is arrested, and eventually Rickard is summoned. Both die.

Note that Lyanna was supposedly found ten leagues from Harrenhal, by Rhaegar and Arthur and Oswell. This is close to Maidenpool. Did she give birth? Did she give birth before or after she was found? After seems very unlikely. Did Walys take the baby away and flee by Maidenpool to bring it back to Winterfell, eventually meeting up with Ned, telling him the truth and Ned sending him away with a bag of silver stags to safekeep the child elsewhere than the north? Maybe Ned didn't believe him?

So Walys then eventually ends up among highborns, and his portrait is painted while still under the cover of his fake identity. He eventually sends it to his father, the only portrait he has of himself. And a lock of blond hair tied in a ribbon...

BTW for the gauntlet, some say it may have been Oberyn. The only thing I could think of is:

Which makes me think of how Rhaegar learned to fight late in life. Could he have given his gauntlet to someone training him at some point when he lost, early in his training days?

I'm wondering at this point if all the items aren't to "back up a story", sort of proofs that Walys had sent his father to try and convince him of the truth of what he may have told or written him.

I don't know. My head is pounding. So many possibilities.

But there is something going on...

what drugs are you on?

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CoK Bran4

He tried to recall all he had been taught of the crannogmen, who dwelt amongst the bogs of the Neck and seldom left their wetlands. They were a poor folk, fishers and frog-hunters who lived in houses of thatch and woven reeds on floating islands hidden in the deeps of the swamp


DWD Bran1
They lived on crushed acorns and raw fish. The woods were full of frozen streams and cold black lakes, and Meera was as good a fisher with her three-pronged frog spear as most men were with hook and line.

 

——-
Off topic here just a side thing that bugs me. I always found this “gift of” peculiar. I’ve been wanting to apply it to things.

CoK Bran4

The girl, Meera, got to her feet and helped her brother up. The boy stared at Bran all the while. "We bring you gifts of fish and frog and fowl," he said.


The “Little Grandfather” needing help to stand and just stared at Bran all the wile. Gifts I think poison. Fish=Sea or Salt, Frog=Land & Water, Fowl=Sky or Air?

 

 

 

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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When the longaxe caught the blue knight's hand on the backswing and sent the morningstar flying from his grasp, the crowd screamed like a rutting beast. The Knight of Flowers raised his axe for the final blow.

The blue knight charged into it. The stallions slammed together, the blunted axehead smashed against the scarred blue breastplate . . . but somehow the blue knight had the haft locked between steel-gauntleted fingers. He wrenched it from Ser Loras's hand, and suddenly the two were grappling mount-to-mount, and an instant later they were falling.


—-

Brienne brought the king's gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height. "The time for talk is done. Now we see who is stronger." Renly pulled a lobstered green-and-gold gauntlet over his left hand, while Brienne knelt to buckle on his belt, heavy with the weight of longsword and dagger.

 

—-

"Not to you, perhaps," said Ser Cortnay. "I have heard your proposal, Lord Stannis. Now here is mine." He pulled off his glove and flung it full in the king's face. "Single combat. Sword, lance, or any weapon you care to name. Or if you fear to hazard your magic sword and royal skin against an old man, name you a champion, and I shall do the same." He gave Guyard Morrigen and Bryce Caron a scathing look. "Either of these pups would do nicely, I should think."

 

And Lord Caron and the others who like to kick will want to take up ser cortnay’s gauntlet  and hazard all upon a single combat. 
 

 

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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I always thought Stanis fit the description of Young Ned better then the father Ned. Mad axe a Baratheon? I haven’t done the work on Mad Axe. I always assumed he was Stanis or Robert. It was obvious on first read, the previous chapter described him, if I recall correctly.

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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1 hour ago, Egged said:

 

Actually I made a mistake!

 

From the wiki 
The silver stags are known for the stag they bear. Note, they were not minted for the 
Baratheon dynasty only, but had already been in use during the Targaryen reign.[16] Silver stags were used in the stormlands before Aegon's Conquest, whereas silver moons were used in the Vale. After the Conquest, the Targaryens co-opted them as denominations within their new unified currency system

So maybe not a mistake?

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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49 minutes ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

From the wiki 
The silver stags are known for the stag they bear. Note, they were not minted for the 
Baratheon dynasty only, but had already been in use during the Targaryen reign.[16] Silver stags were used in the stormlands before Aegon's Conquest, whereas silver moons were used in the Vale. After the Conquest, the Targaryens co-opted them as denominations within their new unified currency system

So maybe not a mistake?

Indeed, someone else on Reddit told me as much! I'll remove the edit.

So thinking about this some more...

Walys might have started a conspiracy to take down the Targaryens. If Rickard agreed to "fake" Lyanna's kidnapping, maybe because he found Lyanna was pregnant (Could all this tie to why Benjen went to the Wall? He knows the truth?)? This could have literally been a conspiracy spearheaded by Walgrave form Oldtown, under the direction of the Hightowers. Although it's possible Walys, after Lyanna fled, would have been the one inventing the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped her. He might have even tipped off the Targaryens so that she might be captured (useful hostage).

Quote

Blood and Fire is a fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome containing information about dragons. It is sometimes called The Death of Dragons. The only surviving copy is supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

Blood and Fire, a reversal of House Targaryen's words. The Death of Dragons. Could it be about a conspiracy to wipe out the Targaryens?

George often makes parallels between characters that share names.

Here is what I see odd with Wylla Manderly:

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I know about the promise ... Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!

This sounds like something Lyanna might yell at conspirators planning to wage war against the Targaryens. There is the Pact of Ice & Fire between Starks and Targaryens, made under Cregan Stark.

If Lyanna had a fling with Rhaegar already, that could have motivated her outburst.

If she was already pregnant from Rhaegar, that could explain it further, and if the Starks were aware of the pregnancy, maybe even Robert (blaming rape of course), it might be that part of the conspiracy was to blame Rhaegar for her pregnancy through rape or some such even if Lyanna told them that was a lie.

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna would have been the event they would have seized on to eventually support their claims.

Lyanna being found by Rhaegar and co. near Maidenpool would have been her fleeing, potentially to reveal the truth to Rhaegar. By then, it was too late.

Now, where would the Walys disguised as a woman and being left with coins fit into this? The idea that Ned left him with a baby in the belly could mean something else than Ned literally leaving him a baby, but rather that this "woman" was eventually associated with a child said to be of Ned. So presumably, one at Starfall, considering the Wylla "the maid" story. That would be where Walys got his portrait painted.

And if we think this through, the Daynes would have eventually been thankful to Ned, for some reason relating to this.

Edit: It also explains why Lyanna would not return to the north! She was afraid for her own life and her child's!

/head pouding

Edited by Egged
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18 hours ago, Egged said:

So Ned left the "drowned fisherman's daughter" a "bag of silver" and "a bastard baby" in her belly, and she named him Jon Snow?

Well...

A bag of silver stags. Note how Ned was at Sweetsister where he supposedly left the bag of silver at the start of Robert's Rebellion, so presumably the money to make his way home had been given to Ned in the Stormlands, hence silver stags would match.

Some believe Walgrave is the father of maester Walys, because of the similarity of the maester's name and his father being a maester, his mother being a Hightower girl:

Walgrave, Walys, Wylla.

A painted picture of a woman who looks like Walgrave disguised as a woman.

A lock of blond hair tied up in a ribbon.

Ned leaving a bag of coins and a baby bastard to the "drowned fisherman's daughter" during a storm.

Anyone else thinks there might be a relation to all of this?

Walgrave or Walys (who might look like Walgrave) would have disguised himself as a woman to help Ned escape Sweetsister, and he was left with a bag of silver stags coins and a baby, presumably expected to now make his way to some safe location. The story that the father of the girl drowned because of a storm may or may not be true; the man could have been killed to keep a secret, or was in on it, or didn't exist.

Walgrave or Walys would have traveled disguised as a woman to bring the baby to safety somewhere. Eventually he ends up among highborn people, hence the painting portrait made of him. This portrait and the silver stags end up in Walgrave's lockbox. The lock of blond hair? Could be of the baby, or a Targaryen or Dayne, or else unrelated.

Note that we do not know what happened to Walys. He was replaced by Luwin, who delivered all of Catelyn's children, so he disappeared at some point between the moment Rickard went south and before Catelyn gave birth.

Just some food for thought, I can't draw any conclusions, but maybe others can chime in?

Edit: BTW for those wondering about the glove, some say it may have been Oberyn. The only thing I could think of is:

Maybe the glove was obtained for winning a fight against someone else. Rhaegar was probably not a great fighter, he had to learn to fight late according to what we know.

Edit2: I always found this curious and wondered if it meant Jon was older than we think

The eyes take some time to open, so Ghost's eyes being already opened would imply he was born some time before them. Just another potential clue...

Edit3: I am really starting to wonder if Ned's dreams about the Tower of Joy aren't a bunch of lies, put into his head by a dream-manipulator. Something doesn't add up...

I believe the explanation is extremely simple. Walgrave was walda's father/brother, ned fell in love with wylla. They had a child she named him jon. 

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4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I believe the explanation is extremely simple. Walgrave was walda's father/brother, ned fell in love with wylla. They had a child she named him jon. 

Walgrave had a son, Walys, who was maester at Winterfell.

Edited by Egged
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