The Pink Letter: What's the point of it actually being written by Ramsay, theoretically?

[WhatAnArtist!]

The problem with the idea of Ramsay actually writing the letter is that it feels kind of pointless from a larger plot perspective. Like.... what's the point of the Boltons winning AGAIN? At this point we're up to the sixth book - the second final book of the series. The Boltons have been winning since Clash. They served their purpose of betraying Robb and kicking out the Greyjoys from the North. That's all they were needed for. They're not going to be relevant for the final act of the series, so why have them win YET AGAIN? They have to be defeated at some point, so why not just let Stannis beat them? They are not the final act big-bad, they're small-fry compared to what's beyond the Wall, and also what's beyond the Narrow Sea. Martin needs to wrap up their storyline quickly to move on to more important things. That's why the "Battle of the Ice" will take place at the start of Winds, like Martin said. He's going to conclude the Bolton storyline early, to move on to other stuff. I simply don't see what point there would be to having the Boltons win. They NEED to be defeated for the story to move on. If Stannis doesn't beat them, who will? Zombie Jon? That'll be dumb. Jon needs to focus on the Watch and the Wall.

I'm happy to see contrary points of view, but I simply don't see what the narrative point of having the Boltons actually win at Winterfell would be. 

Edit: Apologies if this seems like a rambling rant, I'm somewhat drunk while writing this.

[Canon Claude]

A subversion of expectation. Plus Stannis probably won’t matter any more than the Boltons in the long run. Admittedly, I would hope that GRRM doesn’t repeat the abomination’s plot line, but I’m not expecting Stannis to win either. Especially not with all the major players in the south (Cersei, Euron, fAegon, Dany, Littlefinger, etc)

[WhatAnArtist!]

4 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

A subversion of expectation

But Martin doesn't usually do that just for the sake of it. For the sake of being cool and random and edgy. There's always a larger plot reason anytime he subverts expectations, and I simply can't see what purpose the Boltons would have in the larger overarching storyline after Dance.

[EggBlue]

I don't know who wrote the pink letter but I agree that it's not Ramsay and surely it's not Stannis as I've seen some suggest. as for Boltons winning again, I doubt it. I think it seems clear that Stannis will win this battle but it won't be a sweet victory. he has lost so much of his army and even when he captures Winterfell he won't be able to win the war.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Like.... what's the point of the Boltons winning AGAIN?

The point of Ramsay writing the letter is that, as hinted by Jon and Tormund, there is some truth in it... but which are the truths and which are the lies?

And, more importantly, which are the lies that Ramsay himself believes to be truths. I.E., his belief that Stannis is dead may in fact be the result of a ruse or misinformation that has tricked him.

[Daeron the Daring]

19 minutes ago, Ran said:

And, more importantly, which are the lies that Ramsay himself believes to be truths. I.E., his belief that Stannis is dead may in fact be the result of a ruse or misinformation that has tricked him.

Surely, but how could fArya and Theon get to Jon alone with no help? There is no way. People who may want to find them have to assume that someone outside the castle found them, who could only be Stannis or his host. To assume fArya is with Jon, Ramsay would have to assume the two had to get help from Stannis or his men. And they would have no reason to believe Stannis sent fArya to Jon Snow unless someone told them. 

I'm not saying the last Jon ADWD chapter could cronologically only be after the TWOW chapters of Theon, but:

1. Why confuse people this way at the end of a book? (assuming Ramsay defeated Stannis) 

2. In case he didn't defeat Stannis' entire force, and only Stannis is dead, he would have no reason to assume fArya was allowed to go to Jon Snow. 

Assuming Ramsay wrote the letter, we still don't know how much time passed between the escape and the birth of the letter, but he has no reasons to believe fArya isn't around unless he actually defeated Stannis and took over his warcamp, etc.. 

[Seams]

It seems as if you are raising two separate issues:

1) Did Ramsay really write the pink letter? If so, what is GRRM's purpose in having him do so?

2) Haven't the Boltons finished doing everything they need to do in the plot?

And then you introduce a third question:

3) Is Stannis going to "beat" Ramsay at Winterfell?

I don't see the connection between Ramsay writing the letter and Ramsay winning. He could write the letter and Jon could crumple it up and march on Winterfell to beat Ramsay's butt.

From a literary analysis perspective, the Boltons carry a lot of meaning. I don't see their role in the plot as having run its course.

For instance, we know that Starks (at least Bran and probably others) are wargs and skinchangers. The Boltons flay their enemies (historically, the Starks) and wear the skins. Does this make the Boltons symbolic skinchangers? Symbolic Starks? If either of those is true, I think they will endure in some form as shadow versions of the Starks.

Ramsay is also associated with cutting off fingers: he tortures Theon (as Reek) by cutting off some of his fingers. His "first wife," Lady Hornwood, chewed off her own fingers. This creates a parallel between Ramsay and Biter, of the Rorge / Biter pair that Arya freed from the cage overseen by Yorin. Biter bites the fingers off of the guards in the dungeon at Harrenhal after the weasel soup incident. We also hear that Tyrion would like to cut off the fingers of Illyrio Mopatis to get at his rings. In The Sworn Sword, Dunk describes an outlaw who bit off fingers to steal rings. I suspect that Biter is a Bittersteel parallel. If he is also a Ramsay parallel, are there hints about Ramsay's fate hidden in what we know of the life of Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers? (I also wonder whether there is a wordplay hint in "Aegor" and "Rorge," but I don't know how far to take the parallel.)

Finally, I think GRRM is giving us a possible "evil twin" scenario with the two Snow boys: I believe Ramsay and Jon Snow are the only characters in the current timeframe who have that surname. I think we are being given a plausible pair of northern "brothers" to stand in for the Night's King and the Lord of Winterfell in one of Old Nan's tales. They could possibly also parallel the underground brothers, Gendel and Gorne. If Ramsay and Jon Snow really are supposed to parallel some of these brothers of legend, it makes perfect sense that they would have to fight to the death at some point.

Whether or not he wrote the pink letter, I do not know. I do hope Ramsay sticks around for awhile. There is a rich vein of storytelling in which he could play an interesting role.

[chrisdaw]

It is Jon vs Ramsay hype.

[Lord Varys]

The Pink Letter is just a plot device to trigger Jon's assassination. It has little bearing on what actually happened down in Winterfell.

But it was obviously written by Ramsay. We don't know when, though. The only thing we know for certain is that the Boltons must have broken at least one captive - Mance or one of the women - or else they wouldn't have known that Jon Snow was behind the abduction of Jeyne nor would they actually know that the Abel fellow was Mance Rayder. Everything else could just be stuff the Boltons made up - although that doesn't have to be the case. Stannis could have faked his death, so they might be mistaken about this. In fact, they are most likely mistaken about this, since George would hopefully not waste pages and chapters depicting Stannis' defeat and death if he already spoiled that outcome in the letter.

Compare that to the other letter which claimed that Davos was dead. That one also didn't turn out to be accurate ... and George wouldn't have told Davos' end in this manner if Lord Wyman had actually executed him. If Davos had been killed at White Harbor, then Cersei's chapters in AFfC wouldn't have referenced his ultimate fate.

The Pink Letter could have been written before whatever battle(s) will happen at the village at the lake or afterwards.

The general idea that the Bolton plot has to be wrapped is just an assumption, by the way.

Ramsay and Roose should no longer play a crucial political role, but either or both could escape and flee back to the Dreadfort to lick their wounds there. Technically, they could even crush Stannis, keep Winterfell, and play a crucial antagonistic role during the coming battles against the Others. There is no guarantee that they are going to disappear.

Although I find it much more likely that Stannis will prevail for the time being, because he is a much more important character, overall, than the Boltons.

[Mithras]

 

[James West]

Ramsay has more points of credit as the person who wrote the Pink Letter.  He has motive and means. 

[Gravity Grave]

The letter is the device which provokes Jon into rallying an army with the hook being his assassination.

I'm not convinced the letter is anything more than that. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

16 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

The problem with the idea of Ramsay actually writing the letter is that it feels kind of pointless from a larger plot perspective. Like.... what's the point of the Boltons winning AGAIN? At this point we're up to the sixth book - the second final book of the series. The Boltons have been winning since Clash. They served their purpose of betraying Robb and kicking out the Greyjoys from the North. That's all they were needed for. They're not going to be relevant for the final act of the series, so why have them win YET AGAIN? They have to be defeated at some point, so why not just let Stannis beat them? They are not the final act big-bad, they're small-fry compared to what's beyond the Wall, and also what's beyond the Narrow Sea. Martin needs to wrap up their storyline quickly to move on to more important things. That's why the "Battle of the Ice" will take place at the start of Winds, like Martin said. He's going to conclude the Bolton storyline early, to move on to other stuff. I simply don't see what point there would be to having the Boltons win. They NEED to be defeated for the story to move on. If Stannis doesn't beat them, who will? Zombie Jon? That'll be dumb. Jon needs to focus on the Watch and the Wall.

I'm happy to see contrary points of view, but I simply don't see what the narrative point of having the Boltons actually win at Winterfell would be. 

Edit: Apologies if this seems like a rambling rant, I'm somewhat drunk while writing this.

The pink letter is the thing that concludes jon's entire arc. Jon's arc has been about whether or not he should break his vows or not. He knows breaking the vows means death but he still faces the temptation. 

With mel as a pov, there is no need of jon as anything anymore only his arc of whether or not to keep his vows remains. His mother being irrelevant. 

The pink letter concludes his arc. He breaks his vows and dies. His arc ends

[Curled Finger]

House Bolton, such as it is, has been the vehicle moving the North for 5 books.   Would Jon's reaction have been motivated by a signature such as Stannis Baratheon King of the 7 Kingdoms or Lord Wyman Manderley or Mance Rayder King Beyond the Wall?  I think not.   This letter had to be written to Jon Snow by Ramsay Bolton to get Jon's blood up for a fight--he had to be challenged to the point of putting aside his vows.   No one else could have this desired effect on Jon.   No one else held Jon's little sister.   Regardless who actually wrote the Pink Letter, (Ramsay), the signature was the icing on the cake that was the information in the letter.   

[JonSnow4President]

It really seems like there's a fairly widespread misconception that Ramsey writing the Pink Letter means everything in it (or even most of it) is correct.

Working purely from the books, we know Stannis is planning something.  I personally am a big fan of the Nightlamp theory paired with Stannis having his troops enter Winterfell under Bolton/Frey banners.

 

What does the letter claim though?

Quote

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

Breaking this down, we essentially have three things being said here.  
1) Stannis has been defeated and certain trophies confirming this are at Winterfell
2) Mance Rayder and his spearwives have been captured or killed, with the survivors tortured
3) "Arya" and Reek have not been recovered and are presumed to be on the way to the wall

For the first point, everything we have in the books suggest this is not true.  Stannis' forces are in particularly bad shape.  While everything we have suggests he is a prudent and able commander, Stannis' forces seem unfit to survive seven days of battle with foes who are bring fresh troops and horses to the fight. The alternatives of smashing Frey forces through the hole-ridden lake, or a betrayal by the Manderly's wiping out the Frey's and submitting themselves to Stannis seem far more likely than a seven day "off-screen" battle for a character who has been a large part of the last 4 books.  Once the Frey's are smashed, Manderly messengers or Karstark's ravens can carry Stannis' lies about the results of the battle, and set up the trojan horse style infiltration of Winterfell.  Stannis' sword and any heads of notable fallen Stannis supporters can even be returned to Ramsey to help validate the lie. Slight TWoW spoiler

Spoiler

We even have reason to believe that Stannis plans on faking his own death in one of the released TWoW chapters:

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless." (emphasis added)

As to Mance Rayder, I don't see how this can be anything but true.  The spearwives were discovered in the middle of the escape attempt, and at least a couple took crossbow bolts "on-screen."  We also know no spearwives accompany Theon and "Arya" to the crofters' village.  While it's possible that some of the spearwives or Mance could have made an escape or hid in the crypts, I think the most likely result is that their cover was blown and they were captured within the stronghold of Winterfell. Ramsey torturing Mance, including only giving him a cloak made from the skins of dead spearwives is perfectly in line with his character.  Nothing in the letter excludes flaying either, so the argument of it being the wrong torture for Ramsey doesn't really hold water.

Arya and Reek are very simple.  They're gone, and they weren't recovered at the battle site.  Stannis has been operating with the Wall as a home base.  Given that Arya and Reek are not with Stannis, they were either sent to Deepwood or to the Wall.  Deepwood is far less secure with what is sure to be a small garrison, so them being sent to the Wall is a simple deduction.

The other candidates all have far worse holes than what can be poked through Ramsey writing the letter.  Stannis doesn't know about Mance.  Barring him capturing Winterfell and finding him there, Stannis can't add this part of the letter.  If he has that victory secured, why is he sending a letter that potentially places his wife and heir in danger, sowing doubt among his remaining men at the Wall.  With Winterfell secure, he has nothing to gain by faking his death. 

Mance at least knows enough to potentially write the letter, but lacks the means and doesn't have a clear motive.  As mentioned in point 2, Mance's cover is blown in Winterfell. He's no longer to roam the castle as a bard.  While it's possible he's able to hide somewhere like the crypts, his ability to break into the maester's chambers and then plan, write, and send a letter to demand his son and hostages against Stannis, all without risking provoking a change in Night's Watch policy against the wildings with Stannis' defeat, is doubtful at best.

Compare this to Ramsey.  Based on my reading of ADWD and the released sample chapters, he has every reason to believe Stannis is dead because Stannis is faking his defeat to trojan horse Winterfell.  He has custody of Mance and any spearwives that survived the fight during the escape attempt. And he has every reason to want Theon, Arya, Mance's son, Selyse, and Shireen. He has every reason to seek to secure these through intimidation .  If Jon capitulates, he's not an immediate threat and Ramsey can save killing John for later, while being able to eliminate (or trade for Lannister favor) Stannis' and Mance's heirs.  If Jon doesn't capitulate, he potentially sows division among Stannis' remaining men at the wall and potentially weakens Jon's ability to command since Jon supported a failed Stannis.  His information is wrong, but his actions make sense given the wrong information.

ETA: If you're talking about what is the point from a storytelling standpoint, that is twofold.  It gives us a false narrative before pulling the rug out from under our feet (but in a set-up way) with Stannis and the defeat of the Boltons in the next book.  It also provides a narrative reason for Jon to break his vows and force his execution, setting up a false narrative and pulling the rug out from under our butts (we already fell from his death pulling it out from under our feet) in TWoW when he is resurrected.

[Daeron the Daring]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only thing we know for certain is that the Boltons must have broken at least one captive - Mance or one of the women - or else they wouldn't have known that Jon Snow was behind the abduction of Jeyne nor would they actually know that the Abel fellow was Mance Rayder.

But why would any of the captives (one of the speawives or Mance) reveal who they are? If they simply claim they're random northerners, the better for them. And it's not like it ain't believable. Noone would suspect them to be wildlings, why wouldn't the torturers be satisfied with the notion that they're simple northerner folks, who may or may not have been 'hired' by Stannis. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But why would any of the captives (one of the speawives or Mance) reveal who they are? If they simply claim they're random northerners, the better for them. And it's not like it ain't believable. Noone would suspect them to be wildlings, why wouldn't the torturers be satisfied with the notion that they're simple northerner folks, who may or may not have been 'hired' by Stannis. 

Because they may not have told that story because the torture actually loosened their tongue(s)?

Wildling women cannot really easily pretend they are random northerers, I'd assume.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Because they may not have told that story because the torture actually loosened their tongue(s)?

Wildling women cannot really easily pretend they are random northerers, I'd assume.

Might be. 

The other thing I wanted to include with an edit to my earlier comment I'll include here, since you answered: No spearwives or Mance would mention Val to anyone, especially not as the 'wildling princess'. That would just bear no significance, and it's not like she could bear any significance to Ramsay or anyone else in his party. He would have to hear about it that way from Stannis' men. Considering the possibility of leaking anything to the Boltons, Stannis wouldn't let anyone be captured and questioned, no matter what kind of game he playin. Not because what the Pink Letter includes, but because his own strategy. 

There are just too many things that don't want to fit to me. That makes me upkeeping Mance himself being a possibility behind the mistery of the pink letter. He could have his reasons. 

And the question of wether Stannis knows Mance is alive or not can further complicate this. Assuming Melisandre's devotion, I'd say he knows it. 

[JonSnow4President]

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Might be. 

The other thing I wanted to include with an edit to my earlier comment I'll include here, since you answered: No spearwives or Mance would mention Val to anyone, especially not as the 'wildling princess'. That would just bear no significance, and it's not like she could bear any significance to Ramsay or anyone else in his party. He would have to hear about it that way from Stannis' men.

In an interrogation setting, Ramsey/Roose would want information on everything of significance in related to both the Wildlings and Stannis (and Selyse) plans.  Mance or the spearwives hearing about "the wildling princess" in talk around Castle Black isn't a stretch. Multiple people have desires for her, not understanding how she isn't really a princess.  Ramsey/Roose may also simply be making the same mistake that Stannis' court does.  

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Might be. 

The other thing I wanted to include with an edit to my earlier comment I'll include here, since you answered: No spearwives or Mance would mention Val to anyone, especially not as the 'wildling princess'. That would just bear no significance, and it's not like she could bear any significance to Ramsay or anyone else in his party. He would have to hear about it that way from Stannis' men. Considering the possibility of leaking anything to the Boltons, Stannis wouldn't let anyone be captured and questioned, no matter what kind of game he playin. Not because what the Pink Letter includes, but because his own strategy. 

There are just too many things that don't want to fit to me. That makes me upkeeping Mance himself being a possibility behind the mistery of the pink letter. He could have his reasons. 

And the question of wether Stannis knows Mance is alive or not can further complicate this. Assuming Melisandre's devotion, I'd say he knows it. 

Val's existence is public knowledge at that point, just as Stannis' magic sword or Melisandre's existence (although Mance/the women definitely would tell the Boltons under torture that the actual plan to abduct Jeyne was made by Melisandre).

The idea that Ramsay would take the name 'the wildling princess' from the women/Mance never made much sense. That would be from reports from the Wall they received independently.

And of course Val could be important for the Boltons - she is Mance's sister-in-law. He also wants Mance's son, presumably to put more pressure on Mance.