US Politics: A Game of Chicken (with Constituents lives)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Lenin was a man for the people and as ruthless as he could be, he was ruthless against those who sought to hurt and exploit the working class.

How many innocents did Lenin need to kill to be a bad person?  Or are you okay with X number of dead innocents if your goals are achieved?

[Zorral]

7 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Well, we do have the concept of wage slavery. And maybe is not necessary, but it sure as hell happens allot. Specially left on its own with now regulation. 

And scandinavian countries exploite the global south 100% with no care for our human rights. 

What's diffiult for so many in the US to grasp -- and other places too -- because it's not part of revisionist history, or until recently, taught in h.s. history classes at all, is that ultimately, the War of the Rebellion was a war between two conflicting capitalist economic systems, which could not co-exist due to the objectives on either side.  Yet, even though the slave economic system ultimately was defeated, it managed to keep good parts of the system going within its earlier slaveocracy -- which is when it began in certain aspects to more resemble the vaunted idea of 'feudalism' -- boundaries via control of the legal systems, with the connivance of the politicians from the north, starting with that son of Virginia, Woodrow Wilson.  However, the more a person understands 'feudalism' the more one understands what we had in the US never was anything at all like.

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

11 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

How is north korea communist? And cuba? Or china ? 

They aren't. This is a belief due to U.S. cultural hegemony. We've been indoctrinated with this nonsense since the beginning of the Cold War.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How many innocents did Lenin need to kill to be a bad person?  Or are you okay with X number of dead innocents if your goals are achieved?

Again, you mispresent. I never said he killed "innocents" Scot, and you know it. How many slaves are acceptable for you to say capitalism is okay? A whole race brought over in shackles? More?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

, starting with that son of Virginia, Woodrow Wilson

Woodrow Wilson was absolutely horrible.  That goes without question.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

They aren't. This is a belief due to U.S. cultural hegemony. We've been indoctrinated with this nonsense since the beginning of the Cold War.

How would you describe the North Korean economy? Is it not at the very least a heavily state controlled command economy? ( with a heavy dose of cronyism and gangsterism )

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Again, you mispresent. I never said he killed "innocents" Scot, and you know it. How many slaves are acceptable for you to say capitalism is okay? A whole race brought over in shackles? More?

-0-.  Any person in slavery is unacceptable.  Are you really going to claim Lenin bore no responsibility for the Deaths of innocents under his regime?

I as a citizen of the United States bear responsibility for anyone unjustly executed or killed in wars fought by the United States.  Lenin really bears no responsibility for the innocents killed by the Bolsheveks he led?

[Centrist Simon Steele]

21 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Slavery is a necessary feature 

I don't think it's a necessary feature of any system Scot. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Lenin really bears no responsibility for the innocents killed by the Bolsheveks he led?

Do you believe George Washington bears no responsibility for the innocents he killed when he led the continental army? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Centrist Simon Steele said:

I don't think it's a necessary feature of any system Scot. 

Good.  But that wasn’t what I was asking Zorral.  I was asking Zorral if Zorral is suggesting slavery is a necessary feature of Capitalism.  Zorral hasn’t answered.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

How would you describe the North Korean economy? Is it not at the very least a heavily state controlled command economy? ( with a heavy dose of cronyism and gangsterism )

It is state controlled--to the benefit of the ruler. That's not socialism. Socialism has lots of definitions, but no definition says "it's just a state controlled economy." If you don't include liberation and support of the working class in your model, you aren't socialist. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Good.  But that wasn’t what I was asking Zorral.  I was asking Zorral if Zorral is suggesting slavery is a necessary feature of Capitalism.  Zorral hasn’t answered.

Sucks when people quote a single sentence of what you say without context to make a bad faith argument, doesn't it?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Do you believe George Washington bears no responsibility for the innocents he killed when he led the continental army? 

I believe Washington, and the citizens of the United States, bear responsibility for innocents killed by the Continental Army.  I believe the Citizens of the United States bear responsibility for our desire for independence to allow the further genocide of First Peoples in North America.

When a political leader allows deaths, the blood is on their hands and the hands of those who follow that leader.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Sucks when people quote a single sentence of what you say without context to make a bad faith argument, doesn't it?

Lenin was a bad man who believed the people he killed, innocents and all, were worth the blood he allowed to be spilled.  You can absolutely say the same thing about Washington who wanted large portions of Ohio for land speculation.  

[aceluby]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

How would you describe the North Korean economy? Is it not at the very least a heavily state controlled command economy? ( with a heavy dose of cronyism and gangsterism )

It's a command economy with means of production owned by a dictator.  Definitively not communism.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Can you be legally punished or fined by your boss for quitting or leaving town to get a better job than the one you already have?

Most of those people lack quite a bit of the qualification to move to greener pastures (better job) and moving towns, that's a bit like moving farms in your serfdom example.

My point is, capitalism or rather we as a society, have created our own class of serfs. Just that they are not working farms, but McDonald's, Wendy's, KFC, Wall Mart, food packing industry and so on and so forth. When you look at the chicken (contract-)farming model, tell me how far that one is away from feudalism

 

 

A Crossover to that are best years of mankind yet to come thread is possible.

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 minute ago, aceluby said:

It's a command economy with means of production owned by a dictator.  Definitively not communism.

That applies to every country that ever had a Marxist-Leninist style revolution.

Then the Marxists claim it wasn't real communism, but the next revolution will be. Hence, no true Scotsman.

And of course, they claim anyone that argues otherwise is an American or has been indoctrinated by American ideology, because the US is the source of all evil (which is, again, just another form of American exceptionalism).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Most of those people lack quite a bit of the qualification to move to greener pastures (better job) and moving towns, that's a bit like moving farms in your serfdom example.

My point is, capitalism or rather we as a society, have created our own class of serfs. Just that they are not working farms, but McDonald's, Wendy's, KFC, Wall Mart, food packing industry and so on and so forth. When you look at the chicken (contract-)farming model, tell me how far that one is away from feudalism

 

 

A Crossover to that are best years of mankind yet to come thread is possible.

How have Socialist nations fixed this?  I’d love some examples.  

[Kalbear]

10 hours ago, horangi said:

But at the end of the day, they weren't invented by those other systems.  You are making claims with counterfactuals.  At the same time the median (not mean) family income in the US is 80K.  That's hardly peasant wages for the people at the mid-point of the populace for a country that is apparently treating its citizens like dirt. 

I mean, at the end of the day all of those things were invented by a scientific community funded by military and neither had anything to do with capitalism directly. That's the part that is really confusing to me - saying that a DARPA-led system funded by research grants into 'pure' research is somehow because capitalism? Come on, man. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

36 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

That applies to every country that ever had a Marxist-Leninist style revolution.

Then the Marxists claim it wasn't real communism, but the next revolution will be. Hence, no true Scotsman.

And of course, they claim anyone that argues otherwise is an American or has been indoctrinated by American ideology, because the US is the source of all evil (which is, again, just another form of American exceptionalism).

Who here was advocating for revolution. I know I have been very clear that reformist countries like the Nordic countries and Germany are good examples of reform shifting away from capitalism. 

Your fallacy is creating a strawman. No one said the US is the source of all evil, though I will say, the US has overwhelming evil tendencies fueled by the interests of capitalists. That's very different than your strawman. 

You should read up on cultural hegemony--start with Gramsci. What he argued, what he saw--these things are literally rendered in the U.S. As Slavoj Zizek says, we know its (ideology) a lie, but there is a comfort derived in the values trickled down upon us by the ruling class because the status quo feels safe. You know what you have. A fear of significant shifts and restructuring is based in one of humanity's oldest fears: fear of what we don't know. The problem with escape is you might end up some place worse. The capitalists have kept most Americans just above the threshold of hopelessness. They've begun to fail at that with their overwhelming greed, but this is how it has historically worked.