US Politics: A Game of Chicken (with Constituents lives)

[Kalbear]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And again I see your point (particularly about lutefisk (full body sudder)) I just don’t see how State control of all aspects the economy is helpful and as such disagree.

Who said anything about full state control of the economy? This isn't an argument about capitalism vs communism. This is an argument about whether or not capitalism is inherently immoral. And it is!

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 This is not to claim people who claim profit motive is a “positive good” aren’t immoral.  But I don’t see that attitude as a necessary part of Capitalism.  Hence, we bring the morality we carry into the system.

Profit is literally the guiding goal of capitalism. Like, it's in the name! That capital part doesn't refer to what @sologdin doesn't use in his posts!

Now, you can mitigate some of the more immoral parts of capitalism. You can even use capitalism to game the system to make it actually moral by making immoral actions cost more than moral ones. But all of those things are external to capitalism. By itself, capitalism is the seeking of actual wealth, which given current tech requires exploitation of other things - humans, resources, environment. There probably does exist some platonic ideal of capitalism that has no externalities - assume a spherical cat - but that doesn't exist in reality, and point of fact even if it did capitalism's drive for wealth and hoarding of capital means that as long as SOME exploitation can occur, it will. 

Now, there's another aspect - which is that when you are rich you become inherently more immoral. This appears also to be something of the human condition in some shitty way, as it's something we see cross-culture and across time. That makes capitalism even worse as a driving factor - but even if that weren't the case, capitalism itself would be immoral. 

Seriously, go watch The Good Place. It does a fine job of showing precisely how you are just hosed no matter what.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Kaligator said:

Who said anything about full state control of the economy? This isn't an argument about capitalism vs communism. This is an argument about whether or not capitalism is inherently immoral. And it is!

Profit is literally the guiding goal of capitalism. Like, it's in the name! That capital part doesn't refer to what @sologdin doesn't use in his posts!

Now, you can mitigate some of the more immoral parts of capitalism. You can even use capitalism to game the system to make it actually moral by making immoral actions cost more than moral ones. But all of those things are external to capitalism. By itself, capitalism is the seeking of actual wealth, which given current tech requires exploitation of other things - humans, resources, environment. There probably does exist some platonic ideal of capitalism that has no externalities - assume a spherical cat - but that doesn't exist in reality, and point of fact even if it did capitalism's drive for wealth and hoarding of capital means that as long as SOME exploitation can occur, it will. 

Now, there's another aspect - which is that when you are rich you become inherently more immoral. This appears also to be something of the human condition in some shitty way, as it's something we see cross-culture and across time. That makes capitalism even worse as a driving factor - but even if that weren't the case, capitalism itself would be immoral. 

Seriously, go watch The Good Place. It does a fine job of showing precisely how you are just hosed no matter what.

I love “The Good Place”.  

[horangi]

2 hours ago, Kaligator said:

I mean, at the end of the day all of those things were invented by a scientific community funded by military and neither had anything to do with capitalism directly. That's the part that is really confusing to me - saying that a DARPA-led system funded by research grants into 'pure' research is somehow because capitalism? Come on, man. 

On the contrary, I'd posit that Vannevar Bush's creation of the NSF and similar government funded institutes like DARPA and the NIH are at the top of the list for best policy decisions of the 20th century.   Much as DMC corrected a few pages back, I support a mixed economy with capitalist bones providing the funding for major significant state directed activities.    Its not like the Soviets lost the technological edge because their scientists suddenly ran out of good ideas, they just ran out of money to pay them.  Rather I'm suggesting that the capitalist system that underpins the US economy provides the tax base as well as the US led GATT system of trade agreements establishing the primacy of the US dollar that allows the US to support a 4 trillion dollar budget including a lot of good socialized and state directed programs. 

I just find the far left's tendency to prop up capitalism as a bogeyman to be just as nonsensical as the right's tendency to use socialism as the great evil.   At the end of the day, mixed economies with a strong capitalistic foundation pass the fitness test better than the alternatives, partly because the system embraces competition as a feature rather than a flaw.  Even those state aforementioned state funded programs are run based on competition. 

[Fez]

41 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You lazy government worker. And it needs to not be a slow change, but an entire shift. It's a dumb holiday that's not historically accurate.

That it had a well intentioned origin does not make it right to continue it. And our Italian brothers and sisters are doing just fine now. I mean, they are one of the winners of the Great Food War after all. 

 

You've got it all wrong. I'm not a government worker, I'm a government contractor. Which means Columbus Day is one of my most productive days of the year. I'm working, but almost no one I work with is; so I can get a ton of uninterrupted progress on actual projects done.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

It's not like the Democrats have really made any strong push for a welfare state or for aggressive controls on the worst behavior of capital.

*recently, anyway

Truly, the majority of Democrats up until about a month ago, are pre-Reagan conservatives post Reagan. I can see why some Republicans can vote for Dems now. 

This is not to take away from the majority of Dems recently unifying (the majority anyway) behind Biden's infrastructure bill.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

49 minutes ago, Kaligator said:

Who said anything about full state control of the economy? This isn't an argument about capitalism vs communism. This is an argument about whether or not capitalism is inherently immoral. And it is!

Profit is literally the guiding goal of capitalism. Like, it's in the name! That capital part doesn't refer to what @sologdin doesn't use in his posts!

Now, you can mitigate some of the more immoral parts of capitalism. You can even use capitalism to game the system to make it actually moral by making immoral actions cost more than moral ones. But all of those things are external to capitalism. By itself, capitalism is the seeking of actual wealth, which given current tech requires exploitation of other things - humans, resources, environment. There probably does exist some platonic ideal of capitalism that has no externalities - assume a spherical cat - but that doesn't exist in reality, and point of fact even if it did capitalism's drive for wealth and hoarding of capital means that as long as SOME exploitation can occur, it will. 

Now, there's another aspect - which is that when you are rich you become inherently more immoral. This appears also to be something of the human condition in some shitty way, as it's something we see cross-culture and across time. That makes capitalism even worse as a driving factor - but even if that weren't the case, capitalism itself would be immoral. 

Seriously, go watch The Good Place. It does a fine job of showing precisely how you are just hosed no matter what.

Thanks, Kal, I think this is the point: how do we mitigate the most harmful parts of capitalism? I just don't see it going away, but what you wrote here is really an important distinction within this broad issue. We could incentivize ethical and moral actions by making immoral actions more costly in the long run (often the immorality comes from its cheaper to not think of people first).

I'll check out the Good Place (I know you recommended it to Scot)--I haven't seen it.

[mormont]

[mod] Enough with the capitalism/socialism philosophical/historical debate. It may underly current US politics (and all other global politics) but it isn't what this thread is for, which is discussion of current affairs in US Politics - which has been totally drowned out over the last ten pages. Has nobody heard of starting a new thread? [/mod]

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

I'll check out the Good Place (I know you recommended it to Scot)--I haven't seen it.

The Good Place is a beautiful show that with a terrific sense of humor introduces it’s viewers to some fairly intricate ethical/moral philosophy.

Chidi is my favorite character.

[Conflicting Thought]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Can you please provide specific examples of Scandinavian explotation of the global South?  How would you prevent your alleged explotation?

In chile there are many norwegian companies that work on the salmon industry, you can check Mowi, for just one example, but if you reaaly want to look for more examples pls feel free to google scandinavian companies that operate on our countries that dont have the strong laws that prohibite than kind of explotation on their own scandinavian countries, they are so morally superior with their "humane" capitalism. 

Forgot to add, i would nationalize  industries or at the very least prohibit those companies from opperating in our countries. Avoid signing free trade agreements, where multi nationas can avoid lawsuits, or legal repercussions. And allot more. 

[Ormond]

34 minutes ago, Fez said:

You've got it all wrong. I'm not a government worker, I'm a government contractor. Which means Columbus Day is one of my most productive days of the year. I'm working, but almost no one I work with is; so I can get a ton of uninterrupted progress on actual projects done.

Even while you're wasting time posting in a political thread on an ASOIAF board?   Seems like you're interrupting yourself here today. 

[Fez]

8 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Even while you're wasting time posting in a political thread on an ASOIAF board?   Seems like you're interrupting yourself here today. 

Well, occasional mental health breaks are important; otherwise burnout sets in.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

51 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

In chile there are many norwegian companies that work on the salmon industry, you can check Mowi, for just one example, but if you reaaly want to look for more examples pls feel free to google scandinavian companies that operate on our countries that dont have the strong laws that prohibite than kind of explotation on their own scandinavian countries, they are so morally superior with their "humane" capitalism. 

Forgot to add, i would nationalize  industries or at the very least prohibit those companies from opperating in our countries. Avoid signing free trade agreements, where multi nationas can avoid lawsuits, or legal repercussions. And allot more. 

Thank you for providing that information.  I’ll leave this alone here now per Mormont’s instructions.

However if anyone would like to continue this discussion, here is a locale:

 

[DMC]

6 hours ago, Fez said:

But also, it's worth remembering that the Day was first created at a time when Italian Americans weren't really considered White and faced a lot of discrimination (the day was first declared shortly after 11 Italian Americans were lynched in New Orleans). The holiday was to make them more included and note their place in the history of the US. Granted, even at the time it should've been called Vespucci Day instead.

Obligatory...

Also, feel like it should be noted Biden became the first president to proclaim it Indigenous Peoples' Day on Friday.  Of course, he proclaimed today Columbus Day as well at the same time, but hey, progress.

[DMC]

Politico has a piece out today on Biden's declining approval and that it all circles back to covid:

Quote

For the president and his allies, there’s only one clear way out: Reports from leading party operatives, some shared with the White House and Democratic committees, and polling provided to POLITICO, all point to Biden needing to get a handle on the virus to claw his way out of the muddle.

In one widely circulated memo, Democratic strategist Simon Rosenberg argued that Biden’s steep drop-off can only be explained by the public’s perception of his uneven handling of the pandemic and a belief he is not prioritizing it. Rosenberg, who has been in touch with White House and party committee officials, contends that the tens of millions of dollars being spent to sell Biden’s Build Back Better agenda is “reminding” voters that the president isn't focused on the virus. Even passing both bills won’t be enough to significantly improve Biden’s standing without Democrats first establishing they are the party responsible for defeating Covid, he said.

“The president’s decline is alarming. It’s serious,” Rosenberg said. “But it also can be reversed. And it isn't going to be reversed by passing these two bills alone. He has to get Covid under control.”

 

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Politico has a piece out today on Biden's declining approval and that it all circles back to covid:

 

Stick a fucking fork in him. 

 

 

[Zorral]

Pod partner watched / listened to this stuff shoggoth was spouting in Iowa, and said it was terrifying, chilling, beyond frightening.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/10/opinions/trump-iowa-rally-gop-embrace-obeidallah/index.html

 

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Politico has a piece out today on Biden's declining approval and that it all circles back to covid:

 

Politico sucks.

And wasn't there polls showing Biden back around 50% this weekend?

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

And wasn't there polls showing Biden back around 50% this weekend?

Three of the most recent polls have him from 48-50, aye.

[Jaxom 1974]

19 minutes ago, DMC said:

Three of the most recent polls have him from 48-50, aye.

So maybe let's keep encouraging people to forget Politco exists?

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So maybe let's keep encouraging people to forget Politco exists?

I don't know why you have such an axe to grind with Politico.  Even if, the article was written by their two WH correspondents, I see no reason to impugn them basically reporting on what they're hearing from there and the Hill.