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US Politics: A Game of Chicken (with Constituents lives)


Ser Scot A Ellison

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7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How will the Republicans react if Garland does that?  If you blow up the building it’s very hard to rebuild it from the rubbble that remains.  

I hope Trump sees the inside of a prison cell.  I really do, but if the DOJ goes after him it allows the Republicans to weaponize the DOJ (as Trump wanted) the next time they hold the White House.

I’m as angry any anyone about Trump and his bullshit but if we start rebuilding by destroying any existing norms…doing what Trump wanted to do there is no coming back from that.  It’s done.  

Garland is a professional and is doing his job to the best of his ability.  Destroying existing norms or following Trump’s lead is absolutely the worst path.

This is my point though. Garland absolutely should not be following the norms right now, Republicans sure don't. All he should follow is the law; if Trump committed crimes (and it seems clear he did, on so many different fronts) he should be charged. Let the chips fall where they may.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How will the Republicans react if Garland does that?  If you blow up the building it’s very hard to rebuild it from the rubbble that remains.  

I hope Trump sees the inside of a prison cell.  I really do, but if the DOJ goes after him it allows the Republicans to weaponize the DOJ (as Trump wanted) the next time they hold the White House.

I’m as angry any anyone about Trump and his bullshit but if we start rebuilding by destroying any existing… doing what Trump wanted to do there is no coming back from that.  It’s done.  

Garland is a professional and is doing his job to the best of his ability.  Destroying existing norms or following Trump’s lead is absolutely the worst path.

Dawg, you just provided a rationale for Republicans to continuously escalate their political violence and malfeasance with no legal ramifications for doing so. You know that's just a slower kind of suicide, right?

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1 minute ago, Fez said:

This is my point though. Garland absolutely should not be following the norms right now, Republicans sure don't. All he should follow is the law; if Trump committed crimes (and it seems clear he did, on so many different fronts) he should be charged. Let the chips fall where they may.

I think the consequences of discarding the norms, embracing the norms Trump wanted to establish, are a great deal higher than you want to imagine.

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Just now, Babblebauble said:

Dawg, you just provided a rationale for Republicans to continuously escalate their political violence and malfeasance with no legal ramifications for doing so. You know that's just a slower kind of suicide, right?

Embracing their tactics is putting a gun to our heads.  When they take power again we can’t even say “that’s against existing norms”.  What we need to be doing is codifying existing norms into formal law to create specific and tangible consequences for violations of the law in the future.

You should read After Trump: Reconstructing the Presidency:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-we-wrote-after-trump

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14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I hope Trump sees the inside of a prison cell.  I really do, but if the DOJ goes after him it allows the Republicans to weaponize the DOJ (as Trump wanted) the next time they hold the White House.

Didn't Trump already want to do this?

How does restraint from the Democrats now stop him from doing this if he ever gets the chance?

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22 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How will the Republicans react if Garland does that?  If you blow up the building it’s very hard to rebuild it from the rubbble that remains.  

I hope Trump sees the inside of a prison cell.  I really do, but if the DOJ goes after him it allows the Republicans to weaponize the DOJ (as Trump wanted) the next time they hold the White House.

I’m as angry any anyone about Trump and his bullshit but if we start rebuilding by destroying any existing norms…doing what Trump wanted to do there is no coming back from that.  It’s done.  

Garland is a professional and is doing his job to the best of his ability.  Destroying existing norms or following Trump’s lead is absolutely the worst path.

Republicans are already going to act in bad faith and further subvert the norms. Democrats setting the norms aside to protect democracy might speed that up, but it’s not going to cause something to happen that otherwise wouldn’t at some point in time down the road. Republicans are fascists who are hell bent on ending our democracy and they have to be stopped, even if it requires tactics you don’t feel entirely comfortable with.

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3 minutes ago, mormont said:

Didn't Trump already want to do this?

How does restraint from the Democrats now stop him from doing this if he ever gets the chance?

No.  He tried and was unsuccessful.  You can tell by how the DOJ never formally backed Trump with his horseshit claims of electoral fraud.  You can tell by how Trump didn’t attempt a Saturday night massacre at the DOJ until he found a Deputy Attorney General willing to back him.

The norms held… barely.  If the Biden Administration uses Trumps methods without any attempt at formalization of limits on Presidential power and authority over the DOJ it’s over.  

Please read the article I link above.  I have said for decades, note the plural, that Presidential power needs to be checked and limited.  That means a fully independent DOJ.  That means formalzation of “norms” into law.

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15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Embracing their tactics is putting a gun to our heads.  When they take power again we can’t even say “that’s against existing norms”.  What we need to be doing is codifying existing norms into formal law to create specific and tangible consequences for violations of the law in the future.

You should read After Trump: Reconstructing the Presidency:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-we-wrote-after-trump

You know very well that I never learned to read.

Although I suppose it doesn't really matter. There ain't enough functioning elements of our government to reform itself, let alone protect itself. It's all a slide into the abyss from here, might as well try to slow roll it. 

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20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  He tried and was unsuccessful.  You can tell by how the DOJ never formally backed Trump with his horseshit claims of electoral fraud.  You can tell by how Trump didn’t attempt a Saturday night massacre at the DOJ until he found a Deputy Attorney General willing to back him.

The norms held… barely.  If the Biden Administration uses Trumps methods without any attempt at formalization of limits on Presidential power and authority over the DOJ it’s over.  

Please read the article I link above.  I have said for decades, note the plural, that Presidential power needs to be checked and limited.  That means a fully independent DOJ.  That means formalzation of “norms” into law.

I'm not saying DOJ shouldn't be independent, it absolutely should be. But the AG is nominated by the President, and Biden should've nominated an AG who was going to follow the law wherever it led. That is the only norm that matters anymore. And soon it won't either if Republicans are left unchecked.

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34 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think the consequences of discarding the norms, embracing the norms Trump wanted to establish, are a great deal higher than you want to imagine.

The norms have already been discarded. The question is what new norms you want to establish after you've seized power. 

If you aren't willing to answer that question and want to keep to the old ways, they will be answered for you. 

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32 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Embracing their tactics is putting a gun to our heads.  When they take power again we can’t even say “that’s against existing norms”.  What we need to be doing is codifying existing norms into formal law to create specific and tangible consequences for violations of the law in the future.

You should read After Trump: Reconstructing the Presidency:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-we-wrote-after-trump

And why would Republicans vote for this ever? Why would Manchin and Sinema? How does this get passed? 

The answer is that it won't. You're making a detailed list of things that won't happen. 

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7 minutes ago, Kaligator said:

And why would Republicans vote for this ever? Why would Manchin and Sinema? How does this get passed? 

The answer is that it won't. You're making a detailed list of things that won't happen. 

If no effort is made to formalize existing norms into the US Code I guarantee it will never happen regardless of Manchin and Sinema’s positions.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If no effort is made to formalize existing norms into the US Code I guarantee it will never happen regardless of Manchin and Sinema’s positions.

Whereas what, we should try and wait on it while people continue to break things further and make it less likely? Be realistic. 

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Voters will not reward weakness.

Not punishing an opponent(s) who've openly flaunted breaking suppeona's, refusing any checks on power and conflict of interest, not punishing any of that behavior or the insurrection leadership, well that's just handing the Republicans get out of jail free cards.

Not to mention signaling voters you are weak, refuse to lead and should not be respected.

Unless things change drastically pretty soon we are looking at a swift revisit to the fascist at the helm of our government.

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7 minutes ago, Kaligator said:

Whereas what, we should try and wait on it while people continue to break things further and make it less likely? Be realistic. 

Realistically, if there is no formalization of the norms into statute regardless of what is done to Trump by the DOJ when the Republicans have control of the White House at some point in the future they will fully politicize the DOJ.

That would be… bad.

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Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Realistically, if there is no formalization of the norms into statute regardless of what is done to Trump by the DOJ when the Republicans have control of the White House at some point in the future they will fully politicize the DOJ.

That would be… bad.

That will happen. Realistically, there will be no formalization of those norms - because those norms are not agreed to by the people who are in power. Those norms are already gone. The only check on those norms were individual people, and they are appointed by the people who want to obliterate the norms. The next DOJ for Republicans won't be someone as (hah) principled as Barr. 

You can try and spend any kind of political capital you want, but the best you'll get is executive orders that will immediately be blown away by the next POTUS. That is the limit of codifying norms that we can accomplish. 

I think the problem here is that you are under the mistaken impression that things which have already been broken can be averted. This is much like climate change. We're past the point where we can avert any problems. We are going to have problems. Clinging to a plan to fix the problems that we could have done 30 years ago is not going to work. It's going to make you feel a little better, maybe, and then say 'well, we did what we could do' as you slide into one party Republican authoritarianism. 

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