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US Politics: A Game of Chicken (with Constituents lives)


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3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Well, there is the slavery economic system . . .  though, ya, slavery and capitalism have been pretty much entwined since the 16th-18th century, slavery developing the entire economic model, and which funded European industrialism and then further colonialism.  O so I've been informed by the scholars in the subjects.  

Also, feudalism wasn't all that great either.  And communism didn't turn out well at all for literally everyone that tried.

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43 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

communism didn't turn out well at all for literally everyone

So, slavery=capitalism=colonialism does. Ya think? Or are you saying there is no possible economic system or arrangement that can be anything but catastrophic for a great number or even most of human beings?  Or, do you have something else in mind than feudalism, communism or capitalism?

Edited by Zorral
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7 hours ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Capitalism is the single worst economic system for treating people like humans.

You really should take a look at how Feudal economics worked and how much fun it was to be literally “tied to the land” as serfs were.  

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2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You really should take a look at how Feudal economics worked and how much fun it was to be literally “tied to the land” as serfs were.  

Lke working three min wage jobs in attempt to making ends meet?

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12 hours ago, Ran said:

You are sending this out on a hosted forum by typing the above on a device that sends it over a network made up of millions of miles of wires and cables being routed by complex machinery and software that are powered by electrical generators fueled by various forms of energy from renewables to fossil, and every step of that is the work of capitalism.

Every. Single. Step.

You can convince me that there are problems with capitalism, but you'll never be able to convince me that the solution is that capitalism must be done away with. Until such time as we reside in a Star Trek/Culture future of post-scarcity, capitalism seems, like democracy, to be the worst form of economy, except for everything else we've tried.

 

 

 

I found this to be an odd response, because I’m really not sure the argument you’re making. That fiber optic cables by default could not have been invented under feudalism, or communism? Not to mention the apparent implication that no one in the future could ever come up with a better system than capitalism? That’s some real Fukuyama End of History shit right there.

 I mean, the commies beat the cappies to space, so technological innovation alone doesn’t seem to be exclusively reserved to capitalism.

 The truth is that capitalism is pretty much like every large-scale economic system humankind has had throughout recorded history, which is the system where a few really wealthy, powerful individuals “convince” everyone else that it is in the masses’ best interest to keep these wealthy, powerful individuals in power.

And those individuals then proceed to reinforce their worldview by killing, imprisoning, starving, or enslaving the people who disagree because they can pay other people to do the killing, imprisoning, starving, and enslaving.

 Seems to me capitalism is just authoritarianism with a much better PR department.

Edited by The Great Unwashed
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1 hour ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I found this to be an odd response, because I’m really not sure the argument you’re making. That fiber optic cables by default could not have been invented under feudalism, or communism? Not to mention the apparent implication that no one in the future could ever come up with a better system than capitalism? That’s some real Fukuyama End of History shit right there.

 

But at the end of the day, they weren't invented by those other systems.  You are making claims with counterfactuals.  At the same time the median (not mean) family income in the US is 80K.  That's hardly peasant wages for the people at the mid-point of the populace for a country that is apparently treating its citizens like dirt. 

Edited by horangi
typo
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5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Lke working three min wage jobs in attempt to making ends meet?

Can you be legally punished or fined by your boss for quitting or leaving town to get a better job than the one you already have?

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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3 hours ago, horangi said:

But at the end of the day, they weren't invented by those other systems.  You are making claims with counterfactuals.  At the same time the median (not mean) family income in the US is 80K.  That's hardly peasant wages for the people at the mid-point of the populace for a country that is apparently treating its citizens like dirt. 

But is that correlation or causation?

Scientific discoveries and education in general are built upon the work of previous people. I don't think its too much of a stretch. Not to mention that capitalism isn't a form of government and trade has existed for most if not all of recorded history. Not sure what there is to brag about, really.

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51 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

But is that correlation or causation?

Scientific discoveries and education in general are built upon the work of previous people. I don't think its too much of a stretch. Not to mention that capitalism isn't a form of government and trade has existed for most if not all of recorded history. Not sure what there is to brag about, really.

It’s neither.  It simply observation.  Yes, the Soviets did make it into space before more Capitalist configured economies.  Was that because of a drive for pure science by the Soviets.  Or perhaps something else.  The US made it to the Moon first because of the competition with the Soviets.  I don’t think Communism or Capitalism was the driving force behind the space race.  I think it was simple geopolitical competition between two competing powers.

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Capitalism is the single best economic system ever implemented. That doesn''t mean we couldn't try something better but as of now no system has been shown to reduce poverty more especially when tied with a generous welfare state, I also don't consider things like public education or healthcare to be socialist or noncapitalist as they are services and the production models that support these are fundementally capitalist. 

As for me I like capitalism, I like owning property, I like buying and selling goods, and I don't believe workers should control the means of production or capital. I don't see the need to give those things up when we can harness the engine of capitalism to ensure that everyone has food, education, healthcare and housing. 

Edited by Darzin
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19 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Capitalism is the single best economic system ever implemented. That doesn''t mean we couldn't try something better but as of now no system has been shown to reduce poverty more especially when tied with a generous welfare state, I also don't consider things like public education or healthcare to be socialist or noncapitalist as they are services and the pruduction models that support these are fundementally capitalist. 

In fairness this is largely dependent upon what you value.  Different values are likely to make a far more socialized economic model more appealing.

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50 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Capitalism is the single best economic system ever implemented. That doesn''t mean we couldn't try something better but as of now no system has been shown to reduce poverty more especially when tied with a generous welfare state, I also don't consider things like public education or healthcare to be socialist or noncapitalist as they are services and the pruduction models that support these are fundementally capitalist. 

As for me I like capitalism, I like owning property, I like buying and selling goods, and I don't believe workers should control the means of production or capital. I don't see the need to give those things up when we can harness the engine of capitalism to ensure that everyone has food, education, healthcare and housing. 

That’s going really well now, isn’t it?

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5 hours ago, horangi said:

But at the end of the day, they weren't invented by those other systems.  You are making claims with counterfactuals.  At the same time the median (not mean) family income in the US is 80K.  That's hardly peasant wages for the people at the mid-point of the populace for a country that is apparently treating its citizens like dirt. 

JFC, some of you all here treat capitalism more like a religion than an economic system.

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1 hour ago, Darzin said:

Capitalism is the single best economic system ever implemented. That doesn''t mean we couldn't try something better but as of now no system has been shown to reduce poverty more especially when tied with a generous welfare state, I also don't consider things like public education or healthcare to be socialist or noncapitalist as they are services and the pruduction models that support these are fundementally capitalist. 

As for me I like capitalism, I like owning property, I like buying and selling goods, and I don't believe workers should control the means of production or capital. I don't see the need to give those things up when we can harness the engine of capitalism to ensure that everyone has food, education, healthcare and housing. 

This doesn't seem accurate- it may reduce poverty in some areas but generally at the expense of keeping others in poverty.  Especially on a global scale.

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1 hour ago, Darzin said:

Capitalism is the single best economic system ever implemented. That doesn''t mean we couldn't try something better but as of now no system has been shown to reduce poverty more especially when tied with a generous welfare state, I also don't consider things like public education or healthcare to be socialist or noncapitalist as they are services and the pruduction models that support these are fundementally capitalist. 

As for me I like capitalism, I like owning property, I like buying and selling goods, and I don't believe workers should control the means of production or capital. I don't see the need to give those things up when we can harness the engine of capitalism to ensure that everyone has food, education, healthcare and housing. 

Your very first sentence goes to show how bankrupt this hagiography of capitalism really is. 
 

Historically, capitalism was built on hundreds of years of the brutal exploitation of billions of people around the globe, and the capitalists were perfectly satisfied to hoard all of the proceeds of that brutality to themselves.
 

“Capitalism” didn’t create the world we live in - rather, mostly democratic governments rushed in when capitalism was about to crumble under it own excesses to save it from itself. Until that point, governments had mostly sided with the capitalists against the people, usually by acting as the foot soldiers of capitalism. 
 

The only thing capitalism is doing really fucking well right now is preventing us from solving the emergency we’re in, where our planet is becoming uninhabitable for our species, because all the holders of capital would literally let the world die rather than giving up control of that wealth.

Capitalism is Amazon destroying tens of thousands of laptops a week as part of its fucking business model. Capitalism is the “developed world” burying parts of Ghana in cheap, unwanted clothing
 

“Yay capitalism, so 20% of the world gets to live reasonably okay as long as they work themselves to death by 60 all the while our planet is dying and we’re drowning in crap that capitalism produced but no one wants…I guess?’

Edited by The Great Unwashed
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28 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Once upon a time, the divine right of kings was considered the best system of managing the economy and government to keep people out of poverty.  

Are you going to argue that Capitalist countries with generous social safety nets as in Europe and Canada are really hellscapes for most people in those countries?

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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34 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

This doesn't seem accurate- it may reduce poverty in some areas but generally at the expense of keeping others in poverty.  Especially on a global scale.

Until the pandemic started, global poverty rates had been in steady decline for the past 25 years

https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/overview#1

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