US Politics: A Game of Chicken (with Constituents lives)

[Ormond]

17 hours ago, DMC said:

Heh, figures.

Can you give a couple of sentences of explanation for those of us who aren't experts in your field as to why Peter Turchin being involved in this "figures"? 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Ormond said:

Can you give a couple of sentences of explanation for those of us who aren't experts in your field as to why Peter Turchin being involved in this "figures"? 

I think the "cliodynamics" research he pursues is very close to pseudoscience.  Not in the statistical modeling - he's definitely a lot better at that than I am - but in the conceptualization and operationalization of his "indicators."

[DMC]

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

Until such time as we reside in a Star Trek/Culture future of post-scarcity, capitalism seems, like democracy, to be the worst form of economy, except for everything else we've tried.

Well, I'd replace capitalism with mixed economy, but yeah.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, I'd replace capitalism with mixed economy, but yeah.

And we already have that to some extent in the U.S. It just leans too much towards capitalism right now.

[A True Kaniggit]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And we already have that to some extent in the U.S. It just leans too much towards capitalism right now.

28 to 72%?

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, I'd replace capitalism with mixed economy, but yeah.

Depends on where you fall on the question as to whether mixed economies are real or not. Every mixed economy in the world right now is really a capitalist one with the edges filed down to greater or lesser degree, since the driver of the economic engine remains the accumulation of capital.

But yes, in principle there's no modern, industrialized country that is trying "pure capitalism", and that's all to the good. The question is what mix is ideal, not how to eliminate capitalism (except for those firmly committed to communism, I suppose.)

 

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

You are sending this out on a hosted forum by typing the above on a device that sends it over a network made up of millions of miles of wires and cables being routed by complex machinery and software that are powered by electrical generators fueled by various forms of energy from renewables to fossil, and every step of that is the work of capitalism.

Every. Single. Step.

You can convince me that there are problems with capitalism, but you'll never be able to convince me that the solution is that capitalism must be done away with. Until such time as we reside in a Star Trek/Culture future of post-scarcity, capitalism seems, like democracy, to be the worst form of economy, except for everything else we've tried.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I get your point. Because I have a computer, post online, I should thank capitalism? Despite the widening income inequality, the inability to create savings, medical debt, fossil fuel companies blocking necessary environmental messages, buying off politicians, etc.? 

Also, our internet is municipal high speed internet completely created and maintained by the county.

ETA: I'll end with what I always say to these kinds of responses: Because I exist in a capitalist society doesn't mean I am complicit in it. I have no choice. We would likely be much further along without companies stalling progress for profit. Capitalism is the single worst economic system for treating people like humans. That's more important to me than posting on a forum. If I lost this ability, and we eliminated homelessness, invested in people--I'd do it in a second.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

The question is what mix is ideal, not how to eliminate capitalism

Right.  I think the distinction is important, however, because as Ty said the US should be more "mixed" and less capitalism - and deemphasizing the latter as a dogmatic ideal could maybe help move that along. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

18 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

28 to 72%?

That doesn't really matter. There just needs to be a health balance. Right now in the U.S. there is not, but let's not make it out to be some libertarian hellscape,  which would produce the closest thing to a purely capitalistic state. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

3 hours ago, DMC said:

Fucking craven little Eichmanns

Shout out to former Colorado Professor Ward Churchill.

[HoodedCrow]

I’d say the people that argued that they wanted Covid to thrive in D cities, desired a Libertarian hellscape. Why not? Alan West doesn’t get vaccinated. When he tests positive, he gets monoclonal antibodies ( expensive exclusive treatment). He tells people that he is taking ivermectin and the fish tank cure. But really, unlike Trump or West, we don’t all have access to monoclonal antibodies. And R’s are good with that.
 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Capitalism is the single worst economic system for treating people like humans.

Well, there is the slavery economic system . . .  though, ya, slavery and capitalism have been pretty much entwined since the 16th-18th century, slavery developing the entire economic model, and which funded European industrialism and then further colonialism.  O so I've been informed by the scholars in the subjects.  

[Winterfell is Burning]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Well, there is the slavery economic system . . .  though, ya, slavery and capitalism have been pretty much entwined since the 16th-18th century, slavery developing the entire economic model, and which funded European industrialism and then further colonialism.  O so I've been informed by the scholars in the subjects.  

Also, feudalism wasn't all that great either.  And communism didn't turn out well at all for literally everyone that tried.

[Zorral]

43 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

communism didn't turn out well at all for literally everyone

So, slavery=capitalism=colonialism does. Ya think? Or are you saying there is no possible economic system or arrangement that can be anything but catastrophic for a great number or even most of human beings?  Or, do you have something else in mind than feudalism, communism or capitalism?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 hours ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Capitalism is the single worst economic system for treating people like humans.

You really should take a look at how Feudal economics worked and how much fun it was to be literally “tied to the land” as serfs were.  

[A Horse Named Stranger]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You really should take a look at how Feudal economics worked and how much fun it was to be literally “tied to the land” as serfs were.  

Lke working three min wage jobs in attempt to making ends meet?

[horangi]

1 hour ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I found this to be an odd response, because I’m really not sure the argument you’re making. That fiber optic cables by default could not have been invented under feudalism, or communism? Not to mention the apparent implication that no one in the future could ever come up with a better system than capitalism? That’s some real Fukuyama End of History shit right there.

 

But at the end of the day, they weren't invented by those other systems.  You are making claims with counterfactuals.  At the same time the median (not mean) family income in the US is 80K.  That's hardly peasant wages for the people at the mid-point of the populace for a country that is apparently treating its citizens like dirt. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Lke working three min wage jobs in attempt to making ends meet?

Can you be legally punished or fined by your boss for quitting or leaving town to get a better job than the one you already have?

[Proudfeet]

3 hours ago, horangi said:

But at the end of the day, they weren't invented by those other systems.  You are making claims with counterfactuals.  At the same time the median (not mean) family income in the US is 80K.  That's hardly peasant wages for the people at the mid-point of the populace for a country that is apparently treating its citizens like dirt. 

But is that correlation or causation?

Scientific discoveries and education in general are built upon the work of previous people. I don't think its too much of a stretch. Not to mention that capitalism isn't a form of government and trade has existed for most if not all of recorded history. Not sure what there is to brag about, really.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

51 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

But is that correlation or causation?

Scientific discoveries and education in general are built upon the work of previous people. I don't think its too much of a stretch. Not to mention that capitalism isn't a form of government and trade has existed for most if not all of recorded history. Not sure what there is to brag about, really.

It’s neither.  It simply observation.  Yes, the Soviets did make it into space before more Capitalist configured economies.  Was that because of a drive for pure science by the Soviets.  Or perhaps something else.  The US made it to the Moon first because of the competition with the Soviets.  I don’t think Communism or Capitalism was the driving force behind the space race.  I think it was simple geopolitical competition between two competing powers.