Moiraine Sedai Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 George should do away with the male dominated tradition in fantasy. It started with the primary characters in Rings being male. That's old stuff. I want Dany's men to submit to her will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 18 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: George should do away with the male dominated tradition in fantasy. It started with the primary characters in Rings being male. That's old stuff. I want Dany's men to submit to her will. Since you mentioned Tolkien, and forcing people to submit to one's will, I must admit I have no particular interest in the question of whether the dark lord oppressing me has a penis or a vagina. Aragorn had a sense of duty, and a sense of humility, and regarded himself as a servant of his people. Had he any particular interest in forcing others to submit to his will, he would have seized the Ring of Power. Ditto for Galadriel. "I shall diminish, and remain Galadriel." My own suspicion is that GRRM does not intend this as a power fantasy, and that all the main characters, male and female, will either choose to diminish, like Galadriel, or become villains. But maybe GRRM intends to hash out the "heart at war with itself" theme a bit more than Tolkien did. My guess is, none of the main characters will end up on the Iron Throne. The one who does get there will be, like Aegon V, relatively humble and "unlikely". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 He would subvert my expectations if he managed to finish the series AND the worldbuilding books. 3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: George should do away with the male dominated tradition in fantasy. It started with the primary characters in Rings being male. That's old stuff. I want Dany's men to submit to her will. What about Eowyn? She killed the Witch King of Angmar! I'd say that's pretty important... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 21 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: What about Eowyn? She killed the Witch King of Angmar! I'd say that's pretty important... Nah. Eowyn's a loser. She did not seize the Ring of Power and use it to bend men to her will. And she did not go flying around on her dragon, spreading despair and terror among her enemies. Instead, she killed someone else's dragon, which only spoiled it for someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 He's created a belief 3 dragon riders will face off against the Others on Dany's dragons. Nothing like that is going to happen. The dragons are going to die or be transformed into enemies. Rhaegal will die soon in the Dance, Dany will lose Drogon soon after and Viserion will die in a human war before Westeros has managed an earnest battle with the Others. There will be a point in the series when the Others have taken the north of Westeros all the way to KL and there won't be a single dragon alive for anyone to ride. The story is in (re)creating a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 29 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said: Nah. Eowyn's a loser. She did not seize the Ring of Power and use it to bend men to her will. And she did not go flying around on her dragon, spreading despair and terror among her enemies. Instead, she killed someone else's dragon, which only spoiled it for someone else. If she did, would the Ring of Power not have made her evil, like Gollum? Also, wasn't the last dragon in Middle-earth Smaug? And the Nazgul are riding wyverns....they don't breathe fire, which means they're a wyvern. Plus, Aragorn didn't sieze the RoP. Neither did Gimli or Legolas so far as I remember. Does that mean thy're losers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said: If she did, would the Ring of Power not have made her evil, like Gollum? No. It would make her mighty like Morgoth. Or maybe the like the Witch King if she Underachieves. And Everyone would Love her and Despair Quote Also, wasn't the last dragon in Middle-earth Smaug? And the Nazgul are riding wyverns.... Don't be technical. Quote they don't breathe fire, which means they're a wyvern. Nah, in Middle Earth, the reason you might choose not to call the Witch King's Fell Beast a "dragon" seems to be that True Dragons have 4 legs, even when they also have wings. Not all dragons breathe fire or can fly. You can't actually ride Tolkien's True Dragons, but one can ride Fell Beasts. Quote Plus, Aragorn didn't sieze the RoP. Neither did Gimli or Legolas so far as I remember. Does that mean thy're losers? From a certain point of view. Saruman would say so. So would Denethor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 12 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said: No. It would make her mighty like Morgoth. Or maybe the like the Witch King if she Underachieves. And Everyone would Love her and Despair I really do need to reread LOTR. 12 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said: Don't be technical. Yessir. 40 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said: From a certain point of view. Saruman would say so. So would Denethor. Why Denethor? Aren't they on the same side, fighting Sauron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: I really do need to reread LOTR. My tongue is in my cheek, of course. Eowyn was never tempted by the Ring because she never came near it. Galadriel WAS tempted, and "All shall love me and depair!" was her line. 11 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: Why Denethor? Aren't they on the same side, fighting Sauron? In a sense. But he would have used the Ring had it fallen into his hands. And he considered Faramir a traitor for not seizing it and bringing it to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAnArtist! Posted October 6, 2021 Author Share Posted October 6, 2021 10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said: As for the title question, I subscribe to many unpopular theories. If they turn out to be true, many people will be surprised. Or so they have told me. Some have gone further and said they will burn their copies of ASOIAF, which of course they have the right to do. Which "unpopular theories" would those be? 8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: George should do away with the male dominated tradition in fantasy. It started with the primary characters in Rings being male. That's old stuff. I want Dany's men to submit to her will. I personally don't want Martin to turn the series into a sexist power fantasy, so.... yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree with this one. I think he's done a good job with balancing male and female PoV characters considering that the world ASoIaF takes place in is very patriarchal because of its medieval influences. 3 hours ago, chrisdaw said: He's created a belief 3 dragon riders will face off against the Others on Dany's dragons. Nothing like that is going to happen. The dragons are going to die or be transformed into enemies. Rhaegal will die soon in the Dance, Dany will lose Drogon soon after and Viserion will die in a human war before Westeros has managed an earnest battle with the Others. There will be a point in the series when the Others have taken the north of Westeros all the way to KL and there won't be a single dragon alive for anyone to ride. The story is in (re)creating a dragon. This seems very plausible, and would be a good turn of events. It'll certainly make the final confrontation with the Others slightly more interesting and hopefully challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 8 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said: Which "unpopular theories" would those be? - The dutiful Frog Martell is alive, is the real Aegon, is The Prince That Was Promised, and will take the throne of the 7 kingdoms. Frog will become a Prince. - The power-obsessed Dany is NOT the Mad King's daughter, but a daughter of Rhaegar either by Ashara or Lyanna, and in any event not the rightful ruler (because see above). She, and not Alys Karstark, is the girl in grey from Mel's vision. - Sandor, the savage knight-hating nihilist with a terror of fire, will become a true knight, defend the weak, oppose the strong, and slay a dragon. - The noble virtuous Brienne has come back, Stoneheart-style, as a savage and inhuman undead monster; she will don the hound helm, become "the Hound" and hunt kingslayers (like Sansa) in order to slay them. - Sickly Sweetrobin will not only survive, but kick ass. - Rh'llor and the Great Other (together with the Storm God, etc.) are merely different aspects of the Many-Faced God of death., whose goal is war and death and the extinction of humanity. Their followers who regard them as adversaries are merely their dupes. There are others, but those are a few that seem to fit your "subverts expectations" theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAnArtist! Posted October 6, 2021 Author Share Posted October 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said: - The dutiful Frog Martell is alive, is the real Aegon, is The Prince That Was Promised, and will take the throne of the 7 kingdoms. Frog will become a Prince. - The power-obsessed Dany is NOT the Mad King's daughter, but a daughter of Rhaegar either by Ashara or Lyanna, and in any event not the rightful ruler (because see above). She, and not Alys Karstark, is the girl in grey from Mel's vision. - Sandor, the savage knight-hating nihilist with a terror of fire, will become a true knight, defend the weak, oppose the strong, and slay a dragon. - The noble virtuous Brienne has come back, Stoneheart-style, as a savage and inhuman undead monster; she will don the hound helm, become "the Hound" and hunt kingslayers (like Sansa) in order to slay them. - Sickly Sweetrobin will not only survive, but kick ass. - Rh'llor and the Great Other (together with the Storm God, etc.) are merely different aspects of the Many-Faced God of death., whose goal is war and death and the extinction of humanity. Their followers who regard them as adversaries are merely their dupes. There are others, but those are a few that seem to fit your "subverts expectations" theme. The Sandor Clegane one seems fairly predictable - his entire character has "future redemption arc!" written all over him - but aside from that, you definitely list some very interesting theories, and I wouldn't have a problem with any of them coming true. They all seem quite plausible and would fit naturally within the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said: The Sandor Clegane one seems fairly predictable - his entire character has "future redemption arc!" written all over him - Well, I agree, of course. But my experience is that most posters, even if they agree with the words "redemption arc" in some way, either want Sandor to remain at peace on the Quiet Isle, or return as more-or-less the same cynical badass they know and love, reclaiming his signature totems such as his savage horse and perhaps even his Hound helm. Whereas I expect him to be almost unrecognizable and (for a while at least) unrecognized. 1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said: but aside from that, you definitely list some very interesting theories, and I wouldn't have a problem with any of them coming true. They all seem quite plausible and would fit naturally within the series. LOL, well, thanks. I don't usually get that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 19 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said: He would subvert my expectations if he managed to finish the series Ding, Ding, we have a winner. The only correct answer at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 7 hours ago, Mister Smikes said: The dutiful Frog Martell is alive, is the real Aegon, is The Prince That Was Promised, and will take the throne of the 7 kingdoms. Frog will become a Prince. How? Quentyn died. It is explicitly quoted. He catches on fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 24 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said: How? Quentyn died. It is explicitly quoted. He catches on fire Yes, he did catch on fire. Dany also caught on fire after confronting Drogon in the pit, and she's not dead either. As for the burnt-beyond-recognition guy who died on Dany's bed ... well ... he was burnt beyond recognition. He's really one of the anonymous Windblown that were present and dressed just like Quenyyn -- probably the Prince of Tatters himself, who previously dropped the clue that he likes to maneuver incognito. Archie and Gerris are in the know, and are hiding something from Barristan. That's why Gerris is so nervous when Barristan wants to send them on a mission to the Tattered Prince. He asks to talk privately with Archie (which Barristan refuses to allow). Gerris knows that Tatters is actually dead, which would seem to doom the proposed mission. But Gerris cannot tell Barristan this without giving away the fact that Quentyn is still alive and in the process of stealing a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 I'm not sure we'll see either a clear cut victory or defeat of the Others. The Long Night lasted a generation. The Night's King seemingly married an Other and he was the thirteenth Lord Commander, which would mean the Others were around for a long time after the founding of the Nights Watch. The Wall itself was supposedly built by Brandon the Builder and the Nights Watch so the Nights Watch was fighting the Others for some time before the Wall even existed. Standard fantasy expectations would be that there is some sort of decisive "final" victory over the Others. It would subvert expectations if we didn't get that. We could get something like the Others overrun the North but Danny and dragons hold a new line at the Neck and a prolonged truce or stalemate sets in. We'd end up with a new realignment where the North belongs to the Others and the south belongs to men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Groo said: I'm not sure we'll see either a clear cut victory or defeat of the Others. Well, you can never truly defeat Death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon2909 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 It is hinted Tyrion will be the 3rd Dragonrider on Viserion with Dany and Jon being with 1st and 2nd. and I do believe Tyrion is a secret Targaryen. But we won't see him ride a dragon. Sure he'll interact with them like he does in the show but that's about it. Instead, the 3rd Dragonrider will be Euron after he takes control of Viserion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 22 hours ago, Mister Smikes said: Nah. Eowyn's a loser. She did not seize the Ring of Power and use it to bend men to her will. And she did not go flying around on her dragon, spreading despair and terror among her enemies. Instead, she killed someone else's dragon, which only spoiled it for someone else. So she's a hero because she killed a winged beast. I like people who didn't kill winged beasts. Okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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