Hightowers and Daynes are descendants of The Great Empire of the Dawn

[Süneyra Obiasarkan]

Both are described to have members exhibiting purple eyes and silver-gold hair, i.e typical Valyrian features, however, there are no records of Valyrian activity in Westeros save for Celtigars, Velaryons, and eventually Targaryens. From the little information we have of the Great Empire of the Dawn and their architectural achievements (The Five Forts In Yi Ti for example) they might have been dragonlords and the predecessors of Valyria. This theory could also explain the High Tower of the Hightowers being made and Dawn, the legendary sword of House Dayne being in their possession.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 minute ago, Süneyra Obiasarkan said:

Both are described to have members exhibiting purple eyes and silver-gold hair, i.e typical Valyrian features, however, there are no records of Valyrian activity in Westeros save for Celtigars, Velaryons, and eventually Targaryens. From the little information we have of the Great Empire of the Dawn and their architectural achievements (The Five Forts In Yi Ti for example) they might have been dragonlords and the predecessors of Valyria. This theory could also explain the High Tower of the Hightowers being made and Dawn, the legendary sword of House Dayne being in their possession.

LML has written about this and I think he reached a similar conclusion. He's got some really interesting stuff on GEotD as well as both houses.  I think he spends a lot of time on the fortress beneath the hightower and similar ancient fused rock structures, but it's been some number of years since I've read him (ending of the show derailed him a bit). Lucifermeanslightbringer.com if you haven't come across him and your interested.

[Adam Targaryen]

20 hours ago, Süneyra Obiasarkan said:

Both are described to have members exhibiting purple eyes and silver-gold hair, i.e typical Valyrian features, however, there are no records of Valyrian activity in Westeros save for Celtigars, Velaryons, and eventually Targaryens. From the little information we have of the Great Empire of the Dawn and their architectural achievements (The Five Forts In Yi Ti for example) they might have been dragonlords and the predecessors of Valyria. This theory could also explain the High Tower of the Hightowers being made and Dawn, the legendary sword of House Dayne being in their possession.

Yes, I definitely agree. I have thought this for several years, ever since ca 2016. Many other people too. It's almost too obvious when you think about it actually. The only strange thing is how noone in the story itself remarks on their similarity to the Valyrians, and so forth

[Jon Fossoway]

I don't quite recall any Hightower with purple eyes? May I be enlightened please? I do remember that Alerie and Lynesse are pale blondes, but not any reference to their eyes. 

[Lord Varys]

There are some Hightowers with looks that might indicate Valyrian ancestry, but nothing even close to a family look. For instance, all depictions of Alicent Hightower so far indicate she wasn't exactly a fair-haired woman.

With the Daynes it is similar - we know there are Daynes who seem to look Valyrian, but we don't know if that's a family trait.

Both the Hightowers and the Daynes could have recent Targaryen or other Valyrian ancestors who might explain why some of their members look Valyrian.

Not only do we have the six daughters of Garmund Hightower and Rhaena Targaryen, but also quite a few unaccounted for Targaryen descendants from later days - the Penrose girls, Egg's sisters, various Velaryons, etc.

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

various Velaryons, etc.

Not to mention the Velaryons kept their looks to this day, altough I can imagine them being incestuous in the sense that they often married family the way the Faith allowed them. I mean cousins, and other more distant relatives, if it was possible. (altough that doesn't seem to be a thing before the Dance, when the main line never seems to have married any relative) 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not to mention the Velaryons kept their looks to this day, altough I can imagine them being incestuous in the sense that they often married family the way the Faith allowed them. I mean cousins, and other more distant relatives, if it was possible. (altough that doesn't seem to be a thing before the Dance, when the main line never seems to have married any relative) 

Considering the looks of Corlys' children as well as Daenaera I'd say it would make sense to assume Daemon, Corlys' father, Vaemond's father, and Vaemond all married cousins of various degrees - some may have married actual Velaryons from cadet branches, others could have married women from houses with (multiple) Velaryons ancestors. The Celtigars, Masseys, etc. spring to mind immediately. I also don't think we can expect Hazel Harte to have had hazel hair and eyes, no?

And the Velaryons were a pretty big family from the second Daemon onwards - Alyssa had brothers and cousins, Daemon had an army of children, Corlys at least two uncles, he himself two brothers, six nephews, and, presumably, dozens of cousins. It would make sense for some of them to marry in the family.

[Hazel-rah]

Yeah, dude I mean so are the Lannisters, Ironborn, Dustins, and the Tarths at least.

[Wolfcrow]

Yup, definitely they are, I am also betting on Masseys and Tarths too. Plus, Ironborn are also possible are too, necromancy and black strong weapong that drink the blood of the killed, sounds weird for first men. And they also have Pyke and the chair. 

[Hazel-rah]

On 6/26/2022 at 1:19 PM, Wolfcrow said:

"Masseys and Tarths too. Plus, Ironborn"

Pretty much coastal houses. Looking at a map of Westeros if you start along the arm of Dorne and go up Westeros' western shores, assuming Daynes and Hightowers are geotd houses, you can just follow the trend of coastal invasions. Then you get Lann the Clever and the Grey King being contenders. My new thing is that the Dustins are descended from Ironborn/Geotd invaders and that the barrowlands were deforested by dragonfire. Maybe if the Great Barrow isn't just a hill, it's a barrow with dragon(s) buried underneath. Dragons buried underneath barrows definitely has Beowulf/germanic lore echoes. 

To me Tarth is a no brainer. They fit with the whole star motif of the Bloodstone Emperor, and not 

I mean I think the Faith of the Seven originated from geotd colonization of the western shores of Essos and that certain figures of the Andal invasions are the same as certain figures of GEOFTD colonization just remembered differently on either side of the narrow sea. Like Artos the Strong is Artys Arryn is Argos Sevenstar is Argoth Stoneskin is the Grey King is the First Barrow King. Then Azor Ahai is Who's, or am I? is Hugor of the Hill is Uthor of the Hightower. And one of those guys is the Bloodstone Emperor and the Night's King. It'd be something, too, if Lann, Bran, and Durran and Ghrazdan were the same guy. 

As for Masseys, I read your post on that and I'm less convinced. Their hair and eyes could be from hundreds of years of intermarrying with the Valyrian houses of the Bay or dragonseed. They'd definitely have geographical motivations for doing so. Protection against Stormkings, insurance against being invaded by dragonlords.

[Wolfcrow]

50 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

Pretty much coastal houses.

That. 

 

50 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

Then you get Lann the Clever and the Grey King being contenders.

Lann was mentioned as an Andal I think by GRRM himself in a qna, I think I am not sure. In general I think the Andals came in more than one set or at least people and families on their ownthey were coming to westeros since before the coming of the Andals, we have many stories that involve Andals or Andal customs, but they are way older. Just the last wave was the biggest and had a more violent intergration. Same for the grey king, in genral ironborn have some common stuff in their cultures and many times similar symbolisms, so maybe ironborn and andals were inside the same empire when in essos and had some common ground. 

50 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

My new thing is that the Dustins are descended from Ironborn/Geotd invaders and that the barrowlands were deforested by dragonfire. Maybe if the Great Barrow isn't just a hill, it's a barrow with dragon(s) buried underneath. Dragons buried underneath barrows definitely has Beowulf/germanic lore echoes. 

I haven't look into it at all, not gonna lie sounds pretty tinfoily, but I am gonna lie if I say I dont enjoy some tinfoil from time to time. I think though that there buried is the first king indeed, but I think the first king and Garth are the same person (I know many people don't like the theories by desputed lands, but to me at least, for this part of the story, he theory sounds like the most logical thing). 

50 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

To me Tarth is a no brainer.

Tarths are for sure, I agree. 

 

50 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

As for Masseys, I read your post on that and I'm less convinced. Their hair and eyes could be from hundreds of years of intermarrying with the Valyrian houses of the Bay or dragonseed. They'd definitely have geographical motivations for doing so. Protection against Stormkings, insurance against being invaded by dragonlords.

The thing is not their features though, only at least. I still believe that it is weird how much they are described in f&b and in the main story and the fact that Valyrians were ok to intermarry with them in the first place is a big clue imo. But, also, their whole history before Andals or Valyrians doesn't sound like first men at all.  They had pirate kings, a member with the nickname Milk-eye and lastly, their names in general, their old names and the newer ones, are not first men names, Maldon for sure is not a first men's name  and he was the founder and it is inspired again from arthurian stories like the names of Tarths and Daynes, Justin, Lucifer, Alarra these names are not first men, but also are not Very Valyrian so it's not like they were influenscd and they aren't that Andal either. We don't have other Justins or Maldons. 

 

[Hazel-rah]

1 hour ago, Wolfcrow said:

not gonna lie sounds pretty tinfoily, but I am gonna lie if I say I dont enjoy some tinfoil from time to time

 

Mmm, I don't think it's all fair to call speculation on the ancient lore aspect of the story "tinfoily" Unless you think like aliens and nukes are involved, but the history and mythos is so half-baked and un-fleshed-out, that "tinfoil" is the default when talking about it.

1 hour ago, Wolfcrow said:

Lann was mentioned as an Andal I think by GRRM himself in a qna, I think I am not sure. 

I mean that'd be interesting, but are you sure he wasn't referring to how the Lannisters were eventually Andalified as opposed to the Starks?

 

1 hour ago, Wolfcrow said:

"so maybe ironborn and andals were inside the same empire when in essos and had some common ground." 

The GEOTD might not have even be an actually empire, but just multi-Ethnic colonizers from the East. 

 

1 hour ago, Wolfcrow said:

a member with the nickname Milk-eye

What about the Boltons

[Wolfcrow]

37 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

Mmm, I don't think it's all fair to call speculation on the ancient lore aspect of the story "tinfoily" Unless you think like aliens and nukes are involved, but the history and mythos is so half-baked and un-fleshed-out, that "tinfoil" is the default when talking about it.

Not gonna lie, speculations whithout at all back up, even a little bit, it's kinda wishfull thinking. I can see why people make stories and theories,but these are tinfoil, at least when I have a theory that is on air and with no evidence, I say it is tinfoil. For something not to be tinfoil, it needs at least the tiniest amount of text evidence. It's one thing to be falf-baked and with little evidence and another to be fully on air.

42 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

I mean that'd be interesting, but are you sure he wasn't referring to how the Lannisters were eventually Andalified as opposed to the Starks?

Nope it was about them being Andals from the start, I will search the qna. Even the world book throw it as a possible story for them to be Andals, so there is something there. 

 

44 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

The GEOTD might not have even be an actually empire, but just multi-Ethnic colonizers from the East.

Yup, most empires fictional or irl are like that. I said just the same one, bc Dawn was only one, of the many powerfull cultures we know about in Dawn age Essos. Fisher queens and after them we had Sarnori, the patrimony of hyrkoon was pretty big back then too and let's not forget that we had a huge sea culture in northern Sothoryos at some point, whoever was there they were powerfull, the cities are huge there. Thousand Islands were bigger and it seems something were pretty bad there, bc of magic, the Lorathi that built the mazes. Were all this the same empire? Maybe, maybe not. 

 

51 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

What about the Boltons

As i had said in another post I made at some point about Roose, the eyes that have unnatural colouring seem to point in a connection with magic. Purple, red, the almost glowing blue of the others', the weird deep mosh green etc etc. I believe these colourless eyes are not just there for the shake of it, they point somewhere and at least one Massey had them. Unlike the Boltons though, that had connections to the old gods and they still practice this religion with many first men customs, the Masseys were in a costal area and they were pirates with Arthurian names, the only other people we have seen this are other houses we have hints to be from Dawn. For sure it's not the same thing, but both of them hint to magic, I mean Mel has red eyes but greensheers had them to, so it's not a specific colour eye for every religion, the only colour like tha, it's the purple one, but it is heavily implyed, in the story from charachers that this might be man made and not natural. 

[Hazel-rah]

1 hour ago, Wolfcrow said:

Not gonna lie, speculations whithout at all back up, even a little bit, it's kinda wishfull thinking. I can see why people make stories and theories,but these are tinfoil, at least when I have a theory that is on air and with no evidence, I say it is tinfoil. For something not to be tinfoil, it needs at least the tiniest amount of text evidence. It's one thing to be falf-baked and with little evidence and another to be fully on air.

Alright, well thank you for not lying, and I'm a little offended. All "textual evidence" related to the ancient lore of ASOIAF and geotd is supposed to be non-definitive if not inaccurate. What we "know" about the Dawn Age is actually nothing. I have as much textual evidence as you do, I just hadn't gotten into it yet and honestly I think a quick read on everything related to the barrowlands on awoiaf followed by a specifically-worded write up about it could be called "textual evidence" when it's really not. All of the tidbits that you call evidence about the Masseys are just personal interpretations and whichever way you decide to word your justifications. And i'm not convinced you're wrong either. I just think that some of your conclusions could feasibly be explained away.

You know? Like why does the dragonlords (including Celtigar and Valaryon) considering House Massey marriageable have to do with blood and not just mere geography? Like where's your evidence that Maldon isn't a First Men name? While we bring up the name "Justin" why wouldn't you address other times odd singular names only appear once? What about "Kevan"? Kevin and Justin are pretty similar, and also that they both are actual common everyday names. Maybe Justin Massey's name is Justin because the character Justin Massey is a douchebag and so he get's a douchebag name. What about names that rhyme with Maldon like "Haldon" or "Waldon"? What about "Brandon" which ends in '-don'? Where's your evidence that milk-eyes = geotd eyes, when Starks and Boltons have similar eyes? Does magic eyes = geotd, then what about the Children and greenseers? What about the Masseys' house colors being the three colors of the Trident like House Strong? Is it tinfoily that you didn't notice that? I don't think so. We should limit use of the word "tinfoil" IDK maybe it's just the "culture" of this forum that made that word used so rapidly or maybe we who don't use that word are just nicer people.

[Wolfcrow]

13 minutes ago, Hazel-rah said:

Alright, well thank you for not lying, and I'm a little offended. All "textual evidence" related to the ancient lore of ASOIAF and geotd is supposed to be non-definitive if not inaccurate. What we "know" about the Dawn Age is actually nothing. I have as much textual evidence as you do, I just hadn't gotten into it yet and honestly I think a quick read on everything related to the barrowlands on awoiaf followed by a specifically-worded write up about it could be called "textual evidence" when it's really not. All of the tidbits that you call evidence about the Masseys are just personal interpretations and whichever way you decide to word your justifications. And i'm not convinced you're wrong either. I just think that some of your conclusions could feasibly be explained away.

You know? Like why does the dragonlords (including Celtigar and Valaryon) considering House Massey marriageable have to do with blood and not just mere geography? Like where's your evidence that Maldon isn't a First Men name? While we bring up the name "Justin" why wouldn't you address other times odd singular names only appear once? What about "Kevan"? Kevin and Justin are pretty similar, and also that they both are actual common everyday names. Maybe Justin Massey's name is Justin because the character Justin Massey is a douchebag and so he get's a douchebag name. What about names that rhyme with Maldon like "Haldon" or "Waldon"? What about "Brandon" which ends in '-don'? Where's your evidence that milk-eyes = geotd eyes, when Starks and Boltons have similar eyes? Does magic eyes = geotd, then what about the Children and greenseers? What about the Masseys' house colors being the three colors of the Trident like House Strong? Is it tinfoily that you didn't notice that? I don't think so. We should limit use of the word "tinfoil" IDK maybe it's just the "culture" of this forum that made that word used so rapidly or maybe we who don't use that word are just nicer people.

First of all, you don't need to be offended, since I said that I call tinfoil many of my theories to, when they don't have a base. Not everyone agrees with my theories and it's ok, they are just theories, chill. If you search about it and indeed find something it would be pretty fun, since it's sounds interesting but so far I don't see anything that hints to that, it's on air. 

Second, yes my theory about the Masseys is obviously just a theory, but still I gave some pretty valid arguments, it's ok of you don't agree. To me, an ancient house from a costal area, with pretty light people, with pirate culture, with names like Maldon that are similar to Maladon and Galladon meaning taken from Arthurian legends like names from the Daynes and people from Tarth and even Hightowers, that are close to a place like Tarth, that we both agree sounds like people from Dawn were there, points to another house that aren't first men. What else do you want me to say. It's pretty self explanatory I see that many of the clues we have from the books, about other houses we speculate are from tgeotd, apply to house Massey too. It's ok if you don't buy it it's a theory.

Third, the clues about the Dawn age and the houses are not that little as many people from the fandom suggest. They are just pretty scattered, after 2-3 readings everyone starts to catch up on stuff that never caught their eyes.

Fourth, the names are an instigator. We see specific houses and cultures having specific names, like irl. The names of the Daynes, the Tarths, the Masseys as I said before, some names from Dawn age and age of heroes dragon slayers are inspired by Arthurian legends, the names of the early Hightowers are actually pretty similar to ironborn names, names from house Stark, Bolton and other first men are close to some English and Germanic and Andals seem to have a more all over the place names, but also 99% are English and Old English inspired, as you said Kevan is the asoiaf Kevin, and indeed we see it only on one Lannister, this is why I think it's not easy to compare it to Justin since we have more than one and all of the in the same House. The names along with their characteristics are the reason I believe that Lannisters are Proto-Andals like the world books suggest and not first men. It's a theory as I said maybe tinfoil, maybe not. It's not a bad word at least for me. 

Lastly about the eyes I think you didn't get what I said, bc English isn't my first language and I wrote it kinda messy. Unnatural coloured eyes, hint to magic and Masseys seems like they had a member. Roose again personally I believe he practice magic and he has some magical blood, the Starks don't have the same eyes as Roose not even in the slightest they have grey eyes we actually have a huge amount of people with grey eyes not just the Starks. White though? Not so many and what we have it's either magical or blind. Purple eyes seems to be the exception, they are on magical people, but it is hinting on one time of magic, dragon blood, unlike others that are not connected only with specific forms of magic. Greensheers and Mel both have red eyes it's just an indicator of magic. Again from what I have seen in the books this is my theory, maybe is of 100%, it's ok. 

I'm sorry, bc it seems like I kinda pissed you off, but I didn't mean to offend you, I just would like to see some stuff from the books, to say if I ride with the theory or not, bc so far it's an idea, but it doesn't have any base. I gave you mine you don't agree and it's ok, but I would like to have some stuff too before I say that I see it or not as a theory. Idk what else to say.