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Why didn't tywin name cersei his heiress?


Daenerysthegreat

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This thing has been bothering me since I started reading the books. 

Tywin hates tyrion and doesn't want him as heir, tywin wants Jaime as heir but Jaime can't inherit. Why doesn't tywin name cersei, his own daughter as his heiress. 

We see in tyrion's last chapter in Agot that tywin has given up Jaime for dead. Yet tywin considers tyrion as his heir instead of cersei. 

I don't know much about tywin and cersei's relationship but surely she would have been preferable over tyrion. 

 

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I don't think Tywin has a particularly high opinion of Cersei's intelligence. I can't remember if he ever says anything about that explicitly, but the fact that he made Tyrion the acting Hand instead of Cersei, who would have been much more appropriate considering her relationship to the king and her connections and influence in King's Landing, says a lot. Tywin hates Tyrion and has open contempt for him, but he still trusts him more than Cersei, and gives him permission to override his sister's orders. If it isn't because of her (lack of) intelligence/good judgement, it might be because of her lack of trustworthiness. I'm not sure. Since we never got a Tywin PoV it's hard to confirm how he really felt. A disappointing thing that he was killed before we got to see any one-on-one interactions between him and Cersei with the latter's PoV.

It might not be anything about Cersei herself, though. It might just come down to Tywin not wanting a woman to be the head of House Lannister, possibly through a combination of the patriarchal mindset that's dominant in the series (because of its historical influences) and also because of the bad memories he has of Tytos's mistress running Casterly Rock. In Tywin's eyes, Cersei might still just be "another mistress".

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Tywin is profoundly misogynistic. Much more than he despises Tyrion, he despises the idea of a woman ruling. That's probably due to his own childhood traumas, with his grandmother Rohanne Webber having abandoned Gerold, Ellyn Reyne taking control of the Rock and humiliating the Lannisters, and then his father being controlled by mistresses.

At the end of AGOT, Tywin had the choice of allowing Cersei the control of the Throne, but decided to send Tyrion at King's Landing as acting hand. He preferred Tyrion to Cersei to rule the realm at the time, and it'd be the same in the succession of House Lannister.

But Tywin also didn't had to name a heir because he had other options than Tyrion and Cersei. He may have hoped that at some point he could convince Robert (perhaps by condoning the crown's debts to House Lannister) to release Jaime from his vows. And if that didn't work, he could always name Tommen as his heir if the boy grew up to become someone he deemed worthy.

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well , surely Tywin had a bad experience with women ruling and he definitely isn't a feminist in this extremely macular world. but I don't think that's the main reason he doesn't look to Cersei for his heiress. after all according to Kevan Lannister , Tywin's right hand before Kevan was Johanna which means he had overcome his opinions on women to an extend. I think Tywin's main issue is Cersei herself. She is not nearly as intelligent as she thinks and her arrogance is blinding her. Tywin unlike Cersei , whatever he was, was a clever man and almost never underestimated his foes. he also must have valued information which was why he could use everyone in a way , from Tyrion's savages to the Mountain to the Tyrells and Freys. Unfortunately for Cersei she dismisses half the information people give her from dragons in the east to golden company which will bite her in the ass. 

by the way I agree with @The hairy bear , T would have probably either force Robert to release Jaimie or named Tommen his heir

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2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But Tywin also didn't had to name a heir because he had other options than Tyrion and Cersei. He may have hoped that at some point he could convince Robert (perhaps by condoning the crown's debts to House Lannister) to release Jaime from his vows.

Did Jaime wanted to be released from his vows?  The takeaway I got is that Robert probably would have released him if asked.  I don’t think Robert cared enough that he would have denied the request.

I think the issue was probably that Jaime didn’t want to leave the Kingsguard.  I could easily imagine where Tywin would have made the request to Robert, but when Robert approached Jaime about it, Jaime protested.  And Robert not really caring enough about the issue to get between father and son shrugged and left matters as they were.

The Kingsguard did more for Jaime than just keep him close to Cersei, it also allowed him to shirk the responsibilities of heirship.  Which included arranged marriages, raising a family, and running a territory.  Things that Jaime had very little interest in.

ETA:  Based on Tywin’s conversation with Jaime, it wouldn’t just be up to the king to release Jaime, you apparently had to get the blessing of the High Septon as well.  But it seemed evident that a sizable donation would have done the trick.

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I do not think he saw Cersei as an utter nut but viewed her the way most patriarchs viewed women in this period (with the added arrogance, mindset, and pride of good old Tywin).

He saw her as a means of breeding the future for the crown (and thus a branch off of the Lannister bloodline). Not as one to hold meaningful political office. Nor would he let a male of another line take control of the Rock and the Westerlands.

I think he was hoping for Jamie & would rather have one of Kevan’s kids (under his tutelage) if not Tyrek. Would not be as much of a win as his own bloodline but would be a male born from Tytos, like him.

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6 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

This thing has been bothering me since I started reading the books. 

Tywin hates tyrion and doesn't want him as heir, tywin wants Jaime as heir but Jaime can't inherit. Why doesn't tywin name cersei, his own daughter as his heiress. 

We see in tyrion's last chapter in Agot that tywin has given up Jaime for dead. Yet tywin considers tyrion as his heir instead of cersei. 

I don't know much about tywin and cersei's relationship but surely she would have been preferable over tyrion. 

 

As for the OP, I don’t know if Tywin was ever considering Tyrion as his heir.  He needed Tyrion to go to King’s Landing and try to undo the damage that Cersei was doing.  Presumably Tywin needed someone he could trust, and Tyrion despite his faults was still his son.  And perhaps begrudgingly Tywin was realizing that Tyrion was fairly intelligent.

As for not considering Cersei, I think that last chapter in AGOT answers that question.  Tywin was very unimpressed with the job Cersei was doing in King’s Landing.  Hence the need to send Tyrion.  If Tywin had ever considered Cersei as a possible heir (which was probably very unlikely) her handling of Joffrey probably closed the door on it.

Despite what Tyrion thought, I don’t think that Tywin really had given Jaime up for dead at that point.  The problem was Jaime was certainly not available to go to King’s Landing and Tyrion was.  

But for Tywin and the question of handing over Casterly Rock, I’m not sure that Tyrion’s capabilities were enough to overcome Tyrion’s two big stigmas in Tywin’s eyes.  One, Tyrion being a dwarf.  And two, Tyrion’s need to amuse people.  It probably brought back bad memories of Tywin’s father.  If push came to shove and if Tywin could never convince Jaime to set aside his vows and inherit Casterly Rock, my guess is that Tywin would have turned it over to either one of his grandchildren as stated above, or even his brother.

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4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Tywin is profoundly misogynistic.

I’m not sure that this is completely fair.  Tywin loved his wife and apparently took advice from her.  Tywin’s specific issue with Cersei was her mishandling of Joffrey early in his kingship.

Whether that’s fair or unfair I suppose is in the eye of the beholder.  But from every indication, Tywin was right about Cersei, she made a terrible ruler.

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"I don't mistrust you because you're a woman. I mistrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."

 

That's probably why. Plus, Tywin always still considered Ser Jaime his heir, not Cersei, not Tyrion. As in this..."Your brother's birthright?" We can see that when Tyrion asks for the Rock. And even if Tywin had to pick, I think he'd choose Tyrion, because Tyrion for all his faults has major brain power. Cersei is just a power hungry fool. 

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6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Did Jaime wanted to be released from his vows?  The takeaway I got is that Robert probably would have released him if asked.  I don’t think Robert cared enough that he would have denied the request.

I think the issue was probably that Jaime didn’t want to leave the Kingsguard.  I could easily imagine where Tywin would have made the request to Robert, but when Robert approached Jaime about it, Jaime protested.  And Robert not really caring enough about the issue to get between father and son shrugged and left matters as they were.

Well aside from the two blaring issues, one this never happened and two, it can't happen. Kingsguard serve for life until Cersei decided they don't. 

But aside from those two issues, Jaime only wanted to stay KG when he got tired of highborn women kicking shit at him, before that he just wanted Cersei. So that is a reason to stay, for sure. 

What gets me is if Tywin wanted to release Jaime why didn't he after Aerys was killed? It seems like that would even calm Ned down

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Based on Tywin’s conversation with Jaime, it wouldn’t just be up to the king to release Jaime, you apparently had to get the blessing of the High Septon as well.  

I don't remember that. Citation please? 

I mean it's clearly not up to the king, since that's Tommen and his grandpa is hand. But Jaime apparently has some say

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23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well aside from the two blaring issues, one this never happened and two, it can't happen. Kingsguard serve for life until Cersei decided they don't. 

We don’t know whether it happened or not.  Kingsguards are supposed to serve the king they swore to protect for life.  It’s an open question as to what happens when that king is violently usurped.  Because this is the first instance of it happening.  

But regardless, when you say it can’t happen, you are counting on Robert being heavily invested in this tradition.  If Robert wasn’t, he was the king, he could do what he wanted to do.  Just like Cersei did what she wanted to do.

So it’s possible that Tywin already asked Robert to release Jaime from his vows.   If that happened than my guess is Jaime refused the offer.  The vibe I get from Tywin’s conversation with Jaime post stump, is that this might not have been the first time they’ve had this conversation.

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But aside from those two issues, Jaime only wanted to stay KG when he got tired of highborn women kicking shit at him, before that he just wanted Cersei. So that is a reason to stay, for sure.

No, it wasn’t just why Jaime wanted to stay in the Kingsguard, it was also why Jaime wanted to start taking his responsibilities as a Kingsguard seriously.  He wanted to prove himself, prove that he had honor.  My guess is he wanted to prove it to himself even more so than Catelyn or Brienne or anyone else.  

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What gets me is if Tywin wanted to release Jaime why didn't he after Aerys was killed? It seems like that would even calm Ned down

I think I supplied the most probable answer.  Jaime didn’t want to leave the Kingsguard, and Robert wasn’t going to make him.  Jaime didn’t want to be released.  At that time, the Kingsguard gave Jaime an excuse not to marry, not to raise children and not to have the responsibilities of heirship.

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't remember that. Citation please? 

I mean it's clearly not up to the king, since that's Tommen and his grandpa is hand. But Jaime apparently has some say

Quote

“Cersei ended that when she replaced Ser Barristan on grounds of age. A suitable gift to the Faith will persuade the High Septon to release you from your vows.”

ETA:

Here is the bit that makes me think this wasn’t the first time Jaime had this conversation with Tywin to leave the Kingsguard and resume his status as heir to Casterly Rock:

Quote

“You do.” Lord Tywin rose as well. “A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he’ll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—”
“NO!” Jaime had heard all that he could stand. No, more than he could stand. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business. “No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you’ll hear it?”

 

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50 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

"I don't mistrust you because you're a woman. I mistrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."

 

That's probably why. Plus, Tywin always still considered Ser Jaime his heir, not Cersei, not Tyrion. As in this..."Your brother's birthright?" We can see that when Tyrion asks for the Rock. And even if Tywin had to pick, I think he'd choose Tyrion, because Tyrion for all his faults has major brain power. Cersei is just a power hungry fool. 

That's a show quote. It isn't in the books. Tywin also made himself abundantly clear what he thought of Tyrion inheriting when Tyrion asked to be named heir. "Never," he said, and this was probably before he learned Jaime had been let out of Riverrun. Tywin was already in denial about Jaime concenting to leave the Kingsgaurd for Casterly Rock. This is not a man who will ever see the reason in naming Tyrion heir.

Still, Cersei is not as smart as she thinks she is. Kevan tells her to her face that she is a terrible mother who needs to be sent away from KL post haste, and he never had a thought that didn't originate with Tywin. Doesn't sound like a vote of confidence to me.

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7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We don’t know whether it happened or not.  Kingsguards are supposed to serve the king they swore to protect for life.  It’s an open question as to what happens when that king is violently usurped.  Because this is the first instance of it happening.  

That can't be... didnt Jaehaerys kill Maegor and then blame it on their chair? At the very least, Maegor was violently usurped... although iirc Jaehaerys is the one who invented the KG, so, word. 

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless, when you say it can’t happen, you are counting on Robert being heavily invested in this tradition.  If Robert wasn’t, he was the king, he could do what he wanted to do.  Just like Cersei did what she wanted to do.

Cersei invented the concept. Sure king's can do whatever they want,  but only in the realm of feasibility, Robert can't like fly, and while it's possible for him to discover concepts such as KG don't serve for life or like gravity, he probably won't 

28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, it wasn’t just why Jaime wanted to stay in the Kingsguard, it was also why Jaime wanted to start taking is responsibilities as a Kingsguard seriously.  He wanted to prove himself, prove that he had honor.  My guess is he wanted to prove it to himself even more so than Catelyn or Brienne or anyone else.  

I said when, not why. For sure, Jaime seems to be maturing and coming into his own person and it's nice to think he's becoming honorable 

32 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think I supplied the most probable answer.  Jaime didn’t want to leave the Kingsguard, and Robert wasn’t going to make him.  Jaime didn’t want to be released.  At that time, the Kingsguard gave Jaime an excuse not to marry, not to raise children and not to have the responsibilities of heirship

It's a good answer. But I think the most probable is KG serve for life. It's cornerstone Westeros stuff, almost like NW not serving for life (or dothraki bloodriders, who are supposed to follow their khal into the afterlife)

33 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Cersei ended that when she replaced Ser Barristan on grounds of age. A suitable gift to the Faith will persuade the High Septon to release you from your vows.”

Huh, cool. Thanks

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16 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

This thing has been bothering me since I started reading the books. 

Tywin hates tyrion and doesn't want him as heir, tywin wants Jaime as heir but Jaime can't inherit. Why doesn't tywin name cersei, his own daughter as his heiress. 

We see in tyrion's last chapter in Agot that tywin has given up Jaime for dead. Yet tywin considers tyrion as his heir instead of cersei. 

I don't know much about tywin and cersei's relationship but surely she would have been preferable over tyrion. 

 

As you say, Tywin never gave up hope that Jaime will inherit Casterly Rock.  While Tywin preferred Jaime, I've no doubt that he would hand over Casterly Rock to Cersei before Tyrion.  

In order of his preference:

  1. Jaime
  2. Cersei
  3. Tyrion (a very distant third)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

That's a show quote. It isn't in the books. Tywin also made himself abundantly clear what he thought of Tyrion inheriting when Tyrion asked to be named heir. "Never," he said, and this was probably before he learned Jaime had been let out of Riverrun. Tywin was already in denial about Jaime concenting to leave the Kingsgaurd for Casterly Rock. This is not a man who will ever see the reason in naming Tyrion heir.

 

It can still be applied to book Cersei. Especially book Cersei. For, the rest...I supposed you're right. Although I do enjoy the prospect of Tyrion Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and all the other titles. 

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13 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But Tywin also didn't had to name a heir because he had other options than Tyrion and Cersei. He may have hoped that at some point he could convince Robert (perhaps by condoning the crown's debts to House Lannister) to release Jaime from his vows..

Tywin attempted to get Jaime removed from the KG... but only after a precedent had been established by dismissing Selmy (something Tywin thought was a horrible move). Tywin was not spending time in Robert's court trying to convince Robert of anything, and Cersei certainly wasn't trying to get Jaime sent from the KG to Casterly Rock. As far as I can tell Tywin had NO plans for his succession. He wasn't openly acknowledging Tyrion, but he wasn't doing anything else about it either. If Viserys I can be blamed for shutting his eyes to the problems that would happen with his own desired succession after he foolishly remarried and had a son, Tywin can be blamed (in terms of his own goals) for NOT fathering another son and actually naming an heir.

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The takeaway I got is that Robert probably would have released him if asked.  I don’t think Robert cared enough that he would have denied the request.

There were people who wanted Jaime out of the KG... and then killed or sent to the Wall, because the reason for removing him was for kingslaying. But once Robert establishes that kingslaying isn't enough to remove a KG, there wouldn't really be some other reason for removing Jaime.

9 hours ago, nyser1 said:

I do not think he saw Cersei as an utter nut

I don't think he knew how bad she (or Joffrey) was until Robert died.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s an open question as to what happens when that king is violently usurped.  Because this is the first instance of it happening.

Maegor's KG were all sent to the Wall, whether they were loyal to him or not. Which seems nonsensical to me.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

iirc Jaehaerys is the one who invented the KG

Nope, it was one of Aegon I's sister-wives.

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12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

We don’t know whether it happened or not.  Kingsguards are supposed to serve the king they swore to protect for life.  It’s an open question as to what happens when that king is violently usurped.  Because this is the first instance of it happening

We do know it. It never happened until Cersei. The only way a Kingsguard to leave his position without dying was a permanent vacation to the Wall.

Martin himself said that Tywin was just being delusional, since acknowledging only Jaime as heir meant that he didn't have to face Tyrion had become his default heir.

Tywin himself points that he intended to use Cersei's precedent, the same one he keeps calling folly, to rid Jaime of the white cloak.

 

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless, when you say it can’t happen, you are counting on Robert being heavily invested in this tradition.  If Robert wasn’t, he was the king, he could do what he wanted to do.  Just like Cersei did what she wanted to do.

Robert was never... Hmmm as reformist as Cersei was and he mostly chose to keep things like he founded it.

 

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Jaime didn’t want to leave the Kingsguard, and Robert wasn’t going to make him.

And why would anyone care about what a 15-16 year old Jaime, who didn't even know whether he was going to be allowed to keep breathing or not, had to say?

 

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

although iirc Jaehaerys is the one who invented the KG, so, word.

Visenya was the one who invented the Kingsguard.

Jaeharys sent to the Wall most of his uncle's Kingsguard.

 

 

 

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