Why didn't tywin name cersei his heiress?

[Lord Lannister]

14 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

The show is not canon, so no, it can't. 

You know something has reached the big times when the fans start having canon debates. 

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

We do know it. It never happened until Cersei. The only way a Kingsguard to leave his position without dying was a permanent vacation to the Wall.

Martin himself said that Tywin was just being delusional, since acknowledging only Jaime as heir meant that he didn't have to face Tyrion had become his default heir.

Tywin himself points that he intended to use Cersei's precedent, the same one he keeps calling folly, to rid Jaime of the white cloak.

I didn't say Robert removed anyone or attempted to remove anyone.  What I said, is that it was highly possible that Tywin already made the request to Robert to release Jaime from his Kingsguard vows, but perhaps, Jaime refused.  Which is very much in line with the conversation that Jaime and Tywin had when Jaime returned to King's Landing.  It seems that this wasn't the first time they've had this "discussion".  And the first logical place they would have had the discussion is after Robert became king.

Tallking about precedent at this point and time in history is pretty useless.  After all, never before had another family come and violently usurped the Targaryens (the ones who actually came up with the Kingsguard organization) and Jaime himself managed to become the first Kingsguard who actually killed the King he was supposed to be guarding.  So yes, I think if there was a time to disregard the precedent that came before, this would have been the time.

My guess is Robert probably wouldn't have stood in the way of releasing Jaime from his vows.  Presumably Tywin would have been in favor of this.  Presumably, many of the nobility who either quietly or not so quietly objected to Jaime's actions would have been in favor of this.  I can't see Robert being so invested in any precedent that he would have objected.  (And the only other surviving Kingsguard member, Barristan Selmy, probably would have been in favor of decloacking Jaime at that point as well.)

I think the one person who would have objected, however, is Jaime.  And at this point in time, it probably  wouldn't be because Jaime had any great love for the "honor" of serving on the Kingsguard.  His last year or so with Aerys would have surely disillusioned him to the organization.  

But continuing to serve in the Kingsguard allowed Jaime to 1) stay close to his sister, and 2) shirk the responsibilites that Tywin had in store for him.

Now after Jaime is dehanded, I think his priorites changed.  And when he had the argument with his father, his motivation to stay in the Kingsguard no longer centered on Cersei and the avoidance of his other duties, but it became an attempt to remake himself and regain the honor he had lost along the way.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

And why would anyone care about what a 15-16 year old Jaime, who didn't even know whether he was going to be allowed to keep breathing or not, had to say?

It's simple, Robert was grateful that Jaime killed Aerys.  Even years later, it's evident that Robert feels some debt of gratitude to Jaime over that.  Much to Eddard's disgust.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

didn't say Robert removed anyone or attempted to remove anyone.  What I said, is that it was highly possible that Tywin already made the request to Robert to release Jaime from his Kingsguard vows, but perhaps, Jaime refused.  Which is very much in line with the conversation that Jaime and Tywin had when Jaime returned to King's Landing.  It seems that this wasn't the first time they've had this "discussion".  And the first logical place they would have had the discussion is after Robert became king.

Shouldn't Tywin try and persuade Jaime before bringing the topic to Robert??

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Tallking about precedent at this point and time in history is pretty useless. 

On the contrary, it was in Robert's and the rebels best interest to be seen as the continuation of the Targaryens. The less disruption, the better.

That's the reason why they touched so little and why they didn't not mess with already established precedents.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My guess is Robert probably wouldn't have stood in the way of releasing Jaime from his vows. 

On what basis?? Again, he's not nor has he ever been a reformist. 

So, what's the reason to believe that Robert would have crested a very dumb precedent against the advises of his most trusted generals and would be Hand... just to please Tywin.

 

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Presumably, many of the nobility who either quietly or not so quietly objected to Jaime's actions would have been in favor of this.

They wanted Jaime punished, not rewarded with the Rock.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's simple, Robert was grateful that Jaime killed Aerys.  Even years later, it's evident that Robert feels some debt of gratitude to Jaime over that.  Much to Eddard's disgust.

I don't think he was that grateful. And by the point he was killed the fate of the war and his family was sealed.

And killing Aerys was far less controversial, it wasn't controversial at all, than say dealing with the Targlings, which Robert may have been grateful for having the choice of what to do with the infants out of their, his, hands.

[Frey family reunion]

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

Shouldn't Tywin try and persuade Jaime before bringing the topic to Robert??

Have you met Tywin?

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

On the contrary, it was in Robert's and the rebels best interest to be seen as the continuation of the Targaryens. The less disruption, the better.

That's the reason why they touched so little and why they didn't not mess with already established precedents.

Robert didn't give a crap about the precedents of the Kingsguard.  If he did he wouldn't have allowed Jaime to stay a Kingsguard.  After all, Jaime violated the most fundamental oath of being a Kingsguard, he killed the king he was supposed to be guarding.  And Robert could not have cared less.

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

On what basis?? Again, he's not nor has he ever been a reformist. 

So, what's the reason to believe that Robert would have crested a very dumb precedent against the advises of his most trusted generals and would be Hand... just to please Tywin.

I hazard to say no one from Robert's side would have advocated leaving Jaime on the Kingsguard.  Once again, you are claiming that there is a precedent for keeping people on the Kingsguard when they violate their oath of office.  There is no such precedent.  And Jaime violated the single most important vow he took as a Kingsguard.

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

They wanted Jaime punished, not rewarded with the Rock.

I'm sure they wanted (like Eddard) for Jaime to trade in his white cloak for a black one.  Which is what should have happened if Robert actually cared about the "noble" heritage of the Kingsguard.  But Robert did not.  So assuming that Jaime wasn't going to be punished, at the very least he should not have been allowed to remain a Kingsguard because he proved himself unworthy of the position.

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't think he was that grateful. And by the point he was killed the fate of the war and his family was sealed.

And killing Aerys was far less controversial, it wasn't controversial at all, than say dealing with the Targlings, which Robert may have been grateful for having the choice of what to do with the infants out of their, his, hands.

 Anyone else killing Aerys would not be controversal.  Jaime killing Aerys was very controversal.  It earned Jaime the universal nickname of Kingslayer.  That nickname was not given with affection.

And yes, it appears that the one person who didn't care was Robert.  And yes, it did appear that Robert was grateful for Jaime's actions.

[BlackLightning]

I think it's a combination of having a low opinion of Cersei (which cemented after hearing and seeing how poorly she handles her children and the rumors revolving around her), being an uber-patriarchal traditionalist and distrusting female rulers due to his own personal experience.

Tywin also strikes me as someone who is not easily impressed and difficult to please. So, if you want to stand out and impress Tywin enough so that he will want to bequeath you with such a huge reward/responsibility, you have to really be special AND go above and beyond. Cersei simply doesn't. I think if Cersei had been a bit more like Catelyn, Arya, Daenerys, Visenya, his sister Gemma, his wife Joanna or hell even Sybell Spicer, you might have a different story. Those are truly exceptional women who are capable of leadership and having boundaries and discipline.

I think he also acknowledges that Cersei is also capable of producing healthy children and still maintaining her fitness and beauty. That kind of physical strength and constitution is vastly underrated (both in Planetos and in the real world). Remember Cersei and these other women are all doing it without 19th century tools and methods, much less 21st century tools and methods. No epidural, no gyms, no OBGYN, no post-partum care, no ultrasound, no therapy, etc.

That means a lot when it comes to shoring up alliances and spreading Lannister hegemony.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

you are claiming that there is a precedent for keeping people on the Kingsguard when they violate their oath of office.  There is no such precedent.  And Jaime violated the single most important vow he took as a Kingsguard.

What?? No, I'm arguing that there was no precedent about releasing someone from his vows at all.

That's some nice strawmanning.

 

 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Have you met Tywin?

I've read about him, which is why I'm telling you this??

 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Robert didn't give a crap about the precedents of the Kingsguard.  If he did he wouldn't have allowed Jaime to stay a Kingsguard. 

That's some circular reasoning.

What Jaime did had never been done before, it was up to Robert go actually set a precedent, not to follow one.

 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm sure they wanted (like Eddard) for Jaime to trade in his white cloak for a black one.  Which is what should have happened if Robert actually cared about the "noble" heritage of the Kingsguard.  But Robert did not.  So assuming that Jaime wasn't going to be punished, at the very least he should not have been allowed to remain a Kingsguard because he proved himself unworthy of the position.

Robert didn't care about the Throne, you didn't see him make crazy changes a la Cersei. Nor I did say that he cared about the noble heritage of the order. I said that he didn't want to violently disrupt it. 

Robert not really caring≠ Robert being willing to make crazy reforms that satisfy no one.

Keeping Jaime as his Kingsguard was certainly a stain but it was in no way or manner as disruptive as Selmy's retirement... That everyone keep saying it was idiotic.

 

 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And yes, it appears that the one person who didn't care was Robert.  And yes, it did appear that Robert was grateful for Jaime's actions.

Grateful enough to free him from his vows? Nope.

[Frey family reunion]

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's some circular reasoning.

What Jaime did had never been done before, it was up to Robert go actually set a precedent, not to follow one.

You were the one that argued Robert did not want to set a precedent in releasing the Kingsguard from his vows.  Now, you’re arguing that it was up to Robert to set a precedent?  

Yes, I agree what Jaime did was unprecedented.  It was not unprecedented however, to remove a Kingsguard for the violation of his vows.  Robert allowing Jaime to stay in the Kingsguard set a precedent.  A precedent that I doubt anyone agreed with.  

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert didn't care about the Throne, you didn't see him make crazy changes a la Cersei. Nor I did say that he cared about the noble heritage of the order. I said that he didn't want to violently disrupt it. 

Robert not really caring≠ Robert being willing to make crazy reforms that satisfy no one.

Keeping Jaime as his Kingsguard was certainly a stain but it was in no way or manner as disruptive as Selmy's retirement... That everyone keep saying it was idiotic.

Robert didn’t care that Jaime violated the fundamental oath of a Kingsguard.  Thus, Robert did not really care about the sanctity of the organization.  Removing Jaime from the Kingsguard would not have violently disrupted it, nor would it have made a “crazy change” to the Kingsguard.  

In fact, it would have been well within Robert’s right to have removed Barristan after the war.  It was largely considered Robert’s generosity to his fallen foes that Barristan kept his position.

Keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard was arguably a much bigger deal than removing Barristan.  Jaime’s actions made his continuing presence a mockery of the organization.  Barristan’ s removal, while unprecedented because Barristan had not violated his oath, was mainly an issue because of the universal respect that Barristan commanded.  If Cersei had removed Ser Boris Blount, it’s doubtful that it would have caused a stir.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Grateful enough to free him from his vows? Nope.

You’re completely missing my point.  Robert’s gratitude to Jaime was shown in keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard.  Jaime didn’t want to be free from the Kingsguard.  Tywin was the one who wanted Jaime out of the Kingsguard, Jaime never wanted out.

[frenin]

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You were the one that argued Robert did not want to set a precedent in releasing the Kingsguard from his vows.  Now, you’re arguing that it was up to Robert to set a precedent?  

 

Ofc it was up to Robert, he's the king. Which is why he wouldn't do it. 

 

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, I agree what Jaime did was unprecedented.  It was not unprecedented however, to remove a Kingsguard for the violation of his vows.  Robert allowing Jaime to stay in the Kingsguard set a precedent.  A precedent that I doubt anyone agreed with.  

Indeed, it could be far worse tho. Like... Releasing him from his oath.

 

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Robert didn’t care that Jaime violated the fundamental oath of a Kingsguard.  Thus, Robert did not really care about the sanctity of the organization.  Removing Jaime from the Kingsguard would not have violently disrupted it, nor would it have made a “crazy change” to the Kingsguard.  

Never did I say that Robert cared about the sanctity of the organization. You do not need to care for the sanctity of something to consider it useful and not break it. Robert didn't give a shit about the Targaryens but he still use them to claim the Throne.

Removing Jaime from the order would have violently disrupted it and it would have been a crazy change. Come on now, no Kingsguard has ever been released from his oath... How can that not be a crazy change??

 

 

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You’re completely missing my point.  Robert’s gratitude to Jaime was shown in keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard.  Jaime didn’t want to be free from the Kingsguard.  Tywin was the one who wanted Jaime out of the Kingsguard, Jaime never wanted out.

Robert gratitude to Jaime was shown in keeping him alive, him keeping the cloak was a byproduct of that. Robert didn't ask him what he wanted to be. Just as he didn't ask the rest of the council he pardoned. And Robert was forgiving by nature.

And btw, Jaime spent the years he was under Aerys actually wanting to get rid of the White Cloak. He knew he had been duped and was furious.

The only real reason there is for Jaime to have refused is Cersei, yet the betrothal between Robert and Cersei did not happen until King's Landing got the news of Lyanna's death, months after the Sack.

So why would Jaime, who spent the last two years hating the fact that he had been tricked into throwing away his life and future, who resented the rebels, especially Eddard and Robert, for achieving the glory and respect he felt entitled to by killing Aerys and whose only real reason to keep the cloak till he lost his hand was always be close to Cersei, which again wasn't an option till much later, whose only living sworn brother despised him, along with the whole city, ever want to keep his white cloak under such conditions??

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Indeed, it could be far worse tho. Like... Releasing him from his oath.

 

We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  The Kingsguard wasn’t like the Night’s Watch, it wasn’t considered a lifetime prison sentence.  There is no forcing someone to remain in the Kingsguard as a punishment.  When one breaks his oath he is supposed to lose his privilege of being a Kingsguard.  

I would agree with you up to a point, that there was no precedent in failing to further punish the oath breaker after his white cloak is removed.  So if Jaime’s only punishment would be to force him to leave the Kingsguard then that may very well be a precedent.  And you may be right that it sets a bad precedent.  But by allowing Jaime to stay in the Kingsguard, I would argue, set an even worse precedent.  That one could openly and blatantly violate their primary oath and remain a Kingsguard is a far greater scandal than removing someone based on age (or even a whim).

Robert would have very well been within his rights to have started a whole new Kingsguard without either Barristan or Jaime, and I don’t think there would have been any issue.  Even Barristan later laments that he made a mistake in remaining in the Kingsguard after Aerys death, that the honorable course for him should have been to follow Aerys’ children into exile.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Never did I say that Robert cared about the sanctity of the organization. You do not need to care for the sanctity of something to consider it useful and not break it. Robert didn't give a shit about the Targaryens but he still use them to claim the Throne.

Removing Jaime from the order would have violently disrupted it and it would have been a crazy change. Come on now, no Kingsguard has ever been released from his oath... How can that not be a crazy change??

Once again we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this point.  The Kingsguards had sworn an oath to defend King Aerys to the death.  When they failed to uphold that oath, there would be no violent disruption or crazy change, in the new King creating his own Kingsguard.  It would be absurd to expect a new King to agree to take on as his bodyguards the same men that were previously trying to kill him and his allies.   

Robert however was made from a different cloth, and he had no problem in bringing enemies back into his fold.  In that way, Robert was fairly generous.  And his generosity was taken as a positive when he allowed Barristan to remain a Kingsguard.  His generosity, however, was not so positively taken when he allowed Jaime to remain a Kingsguard.  And I don’t think that Robert ever considered allowing Jaime to remain a Kingsguard a punishment for Jaime.  Robert was happy that Jaime did the deed.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

And btw, Jaime spent the years he was under Aerys actually wanting to get rid of the White Cloak. He knew he had been duped and was furious.

The only real reason there is for Jaime to have refused is Cersei, yet the betrothal between Robert and Cersei did not happen until King's Landing got the news of Lyanna's death, months after the Sack.

You’re right to an extent.  Jaime does recall how he wanted to rip off is cloak when he realized that his initiation was a sham, a part of Aerys’ grudge against Tywin.  But Jaime is also completely full of shit.

His anger over Aerys’ cynical appointment of him to the Kingsguard is laughably hypocritical.  Jaime himself joined the Kingsguard as a plot to keep himself from having to marry Lysa and to remain in King’s Landing so he could continue fucking Cersei.  His real anger probably had as much to do with Tywin taking Cersei back to Casterly Rock after Jaime’s initiation.

As for your issue with the timing, who knows?  Who knows how long it took for Robert to make his decision concerning Jaime’s fate? After all, I’m sure many nobles were petitioning the King to punish Jaime.  And at this time, there was basically no Kingsguard.  Two Kingsguards were dead, three Kingsguards were AWOL and clearly were not considered part of Robert’s Kingsguard.  Barristan was seriously injured.  It’s highly, highly doubtful, that Jaime just resumed his activities as the sole bodyguard to the new King Robert.  You have to accept the fact that as Robert’s kingdom was being formed, Robert did not have a Kingsguard at the beginning (shudder the thought, I know).

At some points in time they cobbled together seven knights and had them swear their oath to King Robert.  And with this, King Robert’s Kingsguard was created anew.  It just so happens that two of the knights had taken part in that same oath with a different king, before.  And by this time, my guess is Tywin had already negotiated the marriage of Cersei to Robert.  

So now, Jaime gets to have things the way he originally wanted.  He didn’t have to marry, he didn’t have to raise children, he didn’t have to assume any responsibilities.  He could do the things he wanted to do, joust, adventure, and fuck Cersei to his heart’s content.  And what’s more he could do it with the realization that he could violate his vows without repercussion.  The only negative was his widespread reputation as the epitome of dishonor.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  The Kingsguard wasn’t like the Night’s Watch, it wasn’t considered a lifetime prison sentence.  There is no forcing someone to remain in the Kingsguard as a punishment.  When one breaks his oath he is supposed to lose his privilege of being a Kingsguard.  

The Kingsguard was literally modelled after the Night's Watch. It's indeed a lifetime prison sentence, it's still considered an honor unlike the the Watch.

When one breaks his oath, he's supposed to die, not being released from said vows.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I would argue, set an even worse precedent.  That one could openly and blatantly violate their primary oath and remain a Kingsguard is a far greater scandal than removing someone based on age (or even a whim).

It set a very bad precedent. Yet still it wasn't as disruptive of it.

It was always up to the King whether to keep the Kingsguard after such scandal, Jaeharys 1 sent Maegor's to the Wall, while Aegon 3 and his war council chose to keep them until Cregan Stark intervened.

Yet, at any point setting a Kingsguard free was on the table... Till Cersei.

 

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Robert would have very well been within his rights to have started a whole new Kingsguard without either Barristan or Jaime, and I don’t think there would have been any issue.

That means with both of them either executed or sent to Siberia.

It certainly doesn't mean that with any of death free.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Even Barristan later laments that he made a mistake in remaining in the Kingsguard after Aerys death, that the honorable course for him should have been to follow Aerys’ children into exile.

Nope, he argues that he would have still serving under Joffrey had he not been kicked out and that only after he was, he decided to search for Viserys.

He certainly wouldn't have abandoned the cloak on his own volition.

 

 

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When they failed to uphold that oath, there would be no violent disruption or crazy change, in the new King creating his own Kingsguard.  It would be absurd to expect a new King to agree to take on as his bodyguards the same men that were previously trying to kill him and his allies.   

There wouldn't have been a violent disruption or crazy change if Robert had followed Jaeharys's footsteps and simply killed and or sent them to the Wall.

Freeing them from their vows however, is indeed a crazy change.

 

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His generosity, however, was not so positively taken when he allowed Jaime to remain a Kingsguard. And I don’t think that Robert ever considered allowing Jaime to remain a Kingsguard a punishment for Jaime. Robert was happy that Jaime did the deed.

I don't think  he cared one way or another, no do i think he considered that he was punishing him... Since the only realistic options were death or Siberia.

I think that Jaime was fairly happy with his choice.

 

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As for your issue with the timing, who knows? Who knows how long it took for Robert to make his decision concerning Jaime’s fate?

The decision of whether killing Jaime or not would have been an inmediate one. Since that was a rather pressing issue.

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

The Kingsguard was literally modelled after the Night's Watch. It's indeed a lifetime prison sentence, it's still considered an honor unlike the the Watch.

When one breaks his oath, he's supposed to die, not being released from said vows.

Not necessarily.

First of all, The Kingsguard is not a lifetime prison sentence. It's like becoming a justice on the United States Supreme Court: that is a lifetime office, a career worth having and a huge honor. No one would ever say that being a Supreme Court justice is a prison sentence.

Second of all, when a Kingsguard breaks his oath, it's either death or a lifetime prison sentence at the Wall.

Cersei turned everything on its head and delegitimized the reigns of her son because of it.

 

[Frey family reunion]

23 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't think he was that grateful. And by the point he was killed the fate of the war and his family was sealed.

 

I went back and looked at Ned and Robert’s conversation on the matter, and it definitely seems that Robert was grateful for Jaime having killed Aerys:

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“Why should I mistrust him? He has done everything I have ever asked of him. His sword helped win the throne I sit on.”
His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but he did not permit the words to pass his lips. “He swore a vow to protect his king’s life with his own. Then he opened that king’s throat with a sword.”
“Seven hells, someone had to kill Aerys!” Robert said, reining his mount to a sudden halt beside an ancient barrow. “If Jaime hadn’t done it, it would have been left for you or me.”
“We were not Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard,” Ned said.”

So clearly not only did Robert not care that Jaime violated his Kingsguard duty, Robert was grateful for it.  So no, I don’t think Robert “punished” Jaime by keeping him in the Kingsguard against his will. 

Either the matter never actually came up, which is possible, or Jaime wanted to stay in the Kingsguard.  But regardless, Robert clearly shows that he does not care about the traditions of the Kingsguard.  So I think you’re argument that he would not have wanted to “disrupt” the Kingsguard by letting Jaime out of his vows, doesn’t hold water.  

Now if you want to argue that Tywin didn’t want to press his luck at that time and purposely did not ask Robert about removing Jaime from the Kingsguard, that’s surely possible.  He was probably more concerned at that time by securing his House’s place with the Throne, so he might not have wanted to give the King a list of demands.  But if true, than my guess is that Jaime didn’t request to get out of his vows either.  Because if Jaime had, I really don’t think Robert would have refused him.  Precedent be damned.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 10/7/2021 at 2:43 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Even years later, it's evident that Robert feels some debt of gratitude to Jaime over that.

Robert is "thoughtlessly generous", not scrupulous in repaying others for what they've done for him. Robert would have had no problem killing Aerys himself (unlike Rhaegar's children), he just doesn't have to once Jaime did and he doesn't think in terms of following rules (hence knighting a northerner like Jorah Mormont and letting non-knights from the North participate in his tourneys). Robert letting Jaime continue in the KG is a little like him not removing Balon Greyjoy: if they say they'll be loyal to him from then on he just accepts it.

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Barristan’ s removal, while unprecedented because Barristan had not violated his oath, was mainly an issue because of the universal respect that Barristan commanded.  If Cersei had removed Ser Boris Blount, it’s doubtful that it would have caused a stir.

Barristan's removal was controversial for both reasons. Cersei DID remove Boros Blount, only for him to be reinstated by Tywin (even if Blount was subsequently reduced to the role of food-taster).

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The Kingsguard wasn’t like the Night’s Watch, it wasn’t considered a lifetime prison sentence.

Only in the sense that nobody is forced to join. But people can voluntarily join the NW, and then once they swear the oath they can't leave until they die.

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When one breaks his oath he is supposed to lose his privilege of being a Kingsguard.

Only if they're executed or sent to the NW. There had been no other option prior to Joffrey taking the throne.

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It would be absurd to expect a new King to agree to take on as his bodyguards the same men that were previously trying to kill him and his allies.

Aegon III's KG included survivors of Aegon II's (Willis Fell & Marston Waters, both of whom would serve as LC).

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's like becoming a justice on the United States Supreme Court

Nope. SCs can retire, as many are urging Breyer to do now so he doesn't die in office (there are living retirees from SCOTUS today: Souter & O'Connor). Chief Justice John Jay even left the Court to serve as governor of New York, and declined a nomination to serve on it again.

[frenin]

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

First of all, The Kingsguard is not a lifetime prison sentence. It's like becoming a justice on the United States Supreme Court: that is a lifetime office, a career worth having and a huge honor. No one would ever say that being a Supreme Court justice is a prison sentence.

You can get out of the Supreme Court if you just retire. You cannot leave the Kingsguard until you die or are sent to prison colony, which is the same.

 

 

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless, Robert clearly shows that he does not care about the traditions of the Kingsguard.  So I think you’re argument that he would not have wanted to “disrupt” the Kingsguard by letting Jaime out of his vows, doesn’t hold water.  

How does he clearly show that??  

 

 

[SeanF]

Tywin *is* a misogynist , but he’s also pragmatic.  If Cersei was highly competent, he might well have named her his heir.  He trusted her enough to run Lannister interests in the capital, for 15 years (people like Lancel report to her, not Tywin or one of his lieutenants).

What undermined his confidence in her was the execution of Ned, a valuable prisoner, and the condition of Joffrey.  Tywin was appalled by his grandson.

 

[Firefae]

He was a mysognist who only imagined Cersei to be the Queen Consort and his grandson to be the King, and later on when she was a widow he wanted her to marry someone else to gain more power. And he was still waiting to find a way to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard oath, as we see when he returns to KL in ASOS.

 

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I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty—"
 

"You do." Lord Tywin rose as well. "A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—"
 

"NO!" Jaime had heard all that he could stand. No, more than he could stand. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business.

 

So, Tywin was delusional, and still saw Jaime as his heir. Not Tyrion or Cersei. Even though Jaime didn't want any of it himself.

[Rondo]

On 10/6/2021 at 3:27 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Tywin always held out that Jaime would take his place as heir.

Correct. Big J was his golden child.  The father's pride in a handsome son who can fight.  Tywin didn't give up on Jaime.  Fighting ability is valued and fathers wanted sons who can demonstrate strength.  Cersei would be heir if Jaime had died in battle in his youth.  

[WhatAnArtist!]

7 minutes ago, Firefae said:

and later on when she was a widow he wanted her to marry someone else to gain more power

He sees Tyrion in the exact same way, which is why he marries him to Sansa. His plan with Cersei isn't exactly evidence of his "misogyny". Tywin was obsessed with House Lannister's power and connections, and did everything possible to extend them. And strategic marriages were the best way to do it.

[Firefae]

3 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

He sees Tyrion in the exact same way, which is why he marries him to Sansa. His plan with Cersei isn't exactly evidence of his "misogyny". Tywin was obsessed with House Lannister's power and connections, and did everything possible to extend them. And strategic marriages were the best way to do it.

Yes, but he only sees Cersei as someone who could advance the power of House Lannister through marriage. With Tyrion, he makes a temporary Hand Of The King and Master Of Coin, he would never give Cersei a position of political power like that based on her skills alone like he did Tyrion.

[WhatAnArtist!]

1 minute ago, Firefae said:

he would never give Cersei a position of political power like that based on her skills alone

Tywin seemed to have no problem with Cersei managing Lannister influence in King's Landing for 15 years before the events of AGoT. He only sends Tyrion there as his acting Hand after Cersei lets Joffrey do a bunch of stupid things, like executing Ned Stark and firing Barristan Selmy. Tywin never had any complaints about her before that. His reasoning for giving Tyrion power instead of Cersei was completely sound; he believed that Cersei was unable to properly control Joffrey. He was correct in this. 

The entire point of Cersei's character is that she isn't even a fraction as skilled a ruler or strategist as she thinks she is.