Why didn't tywin name cersei his heiress?

[Firefae]

Just now, WhatAnArtist! said:

Tywin seemed to have no problem with Cersei managing Lannister influence in King's Landing for 15 years before the events of AGoT. He only sends Tyrion there as his acting Hand after Cersei lets Joffrey do a bunch of stupid things, like executing Ned Stark and firing Barristan Selmy. Tywin never had any complaints about her before that. His reasoning for giving Tyrion power instead of Cersei was completely sound; he believed that Cersei was unable to properly control Joffrey. He was correct in this. 

The entire point of Cersei's character is that she isn't even a fraction as skilled a ruler or strategist as she thinks she is.

He was correct and Cersei wasn't a good ruler. But Cersei wasn't the only Lannister in King's Landing for 15 years. Yes she was manipulating Robert to give more influence to the Lannisters, but it's Robert, manipulating him ain't hard.

[Daenerysthegreat]

1 minute ago, Firefae said:

He was correct and Cersei wasn't a good ruler. But Cersei wasn't the only Lannister in King's Landing for 15 years. Yes she was manipulating Robert to give more influence to the Lannisters, but it's Robert, manipulating him ain't hard.

The usurper did listen to cersei even if he beat her. He allowed lady's death for cersei and also ordered ned to make peace with the kingslayer. 

Cersei was the head of the lannister branch in Kings landing, Jaime couldn't lead because he was a kingsguard so it fell to cersei

[WhatAnArtist!]

4 minutes ago, Firefae said:

But Cersei wasn't the only Lannister in King's Landing for 15 years

Jaime and Lancel had no influence with the king or government. In the case of Lancel, Robert had open contempt for him.

[Firefae]

Just now, WhatAnArtist! said:

Jaime and Lancel had no influence with the king or government. In the case of Lancel, Robert had open contempt for him.

So why did he name Jaime Warden Of The East and threathen Ned to name him Hand Of The King.

[WhatAnArtist!]

1 minute ago, Firefae said:

So why did he name Jaime Warden Of The East and threathen Ned to name him Hand Of The King.

If there was any Lannister influence involved in that decision, it would have been the fact that Robert was deeply in debt to Tywin Lannister.

[Daenerysthegreat]

2 minutes ago, Firefae said:

So why did he name Jaime Warden Of The East and threathen Ned to name him Hand Of The King.

Well Jaime was reliable, a seasoned battle commander and the usurper's brother . It's not hard to see why the usurper named him warden. 

The threat was a joke not to be taken seriously

[Firefae]

3 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

If there was any Lannister influence involved in that decision, it would have been the fact that Robert was deeply in debt to Tywin Lannister.

So there is more Lannister influence outside of Cersei?

 

2 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well Jaime was reliable, a seasoned battle commander and the usurper's brother . It's not hard to see why the usurper named him warden. 

The threat was a joke not to be taken seriously

I interpreted Robert as being serious about the threat, but YMMV I guess.

[WhatAnArtist!]

13 minutes ago, Firefae said:

So there is more Lannister influence outside of Cersei?

Yes, but only indirectly, and by someone not present in King's Landing. He was not influenced by the other Lannisters in King's Landing. I'll wait for you to provide examples of evidence of him being influenced by Jaime and Lancel. 

[FictionIsntReal]

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

Tywin didn't give up on Jaime.

When Jaime was captured by Robb, it kind of seemed like he had.

[Frey family reunion]

On 10/8/2021 at 5:47 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Robert is "thoughtlessly generous", not scrupulous in repaying others for what they've done for him. Robert would have had no problem killing Aerys himself (unlike Rhaegar's children), he just doesn't have to once Jaime did and he doesn't think in terms of following rules (hence knighting a northerner like Jorah Mormont and letting non-knights from the North participate in his tourneys). Robert letting Jaime continue in the KG is a little like him not removing Balon Greyjoy: if they say they'll be loyal to him from then on he just accepts it.

The issue isn’t whether Robert thinks he can trust Jaime.  Foolishly, Robert clearly thinks he can.  The issue is what does it say about Robert’s views of the Kingsguard’s vows where he keeps Jaime in the Gaurd when Jaime had violated it’s most fundamental vow.  

That’s the problem.  Robert sees nothing wrong with the fact that Jaime killed the king he was supposed to be protecting.  Robert even shrugs it off when Eddard directly addresses the issue.  

So if Robert thinks so little of the Kingsguard’s primary vow, which is to protect the king, why do you think he would care about the other vows, to include serving for life?

On 10/8/2021 at 5:47 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Barristan's removal was controversial for both reasons. Cersei DID remove Boros Blount, only for him to be reinstated by Tywin (even if Blount was subsequently reduced to the role of food-taster).

Was it really though?  Was there that big a backlash for the removal of either?  I guess for Barristan, yes, but for Blount?  Certainly not.  I would argue keeping Jaime as a Kingsguard was much more damaging to the credibility of the organization.  The Kingslayer’s presence in the Kingsguard made a mockery of the raison d’etre of the  whole organization.

On 10/8/2021 at 5:47 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Only if they're executed or sent to the NW. There had been no other option prior to Joffrey taking the throne.

The fact that neither happened to someone who violated their most fundamental vow showed Robert cared nothing for their vows.  End of story.

And to be fair, Robert didn’t have to care.  His destruction of the Targaryen kingdom gave him a good bit of freedom to recreate it as he saw fit.  Obviously that’s going to be tempered by the other nobles that helped him win his throne, but to the winner goes the spoils.

Robert chose to bring back the organization, and basically pardoned the two surviving members of the old regime.  Something he didn’t have to do.  

Robert would have been well in his rights to “punish” them by removing them from the Kingsguard and then sentence them to either exile, or the Wall, only to then grant them a King’s pardon for their sentence, allowing them to live their lives as they saw fit.  

But clearly, Robert didn’t see any need to punish Jaime.  Robert not only condoned Jaime’s action, he supported it.  Thus Jaime staying on as a Kingsguard was surely not a punishment.  Which makes me think conversely, if Jaime did not want to resume his role as a Kingsguard in the new kingdom, Robert would not have stood in his way.

So my guess, is that for Jaime he wanted to stay a Kingsguard.  After all, he was finally getting to live his life as a Kingsguard as he initially imagined it.  Getting to avoid responsibility and fuck his sister at will.

[FictionIsntReal]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if Robert thinks so little of the Kingsguard’s primary vow, which is to protect the king, why do you think he would care about the other vows, to include serving for life?

Very simply, Robert was leading a rebellion in which he sought to have as many people as possible switch sides from loyalty to Aerys vs Robert. The nature of Robert's rebellion was not to end vows to remain in an order until death.

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Was it really though?

Tywin says as much when he's accurately discussing how much Joffrey's new regime is screwing things up (which Tyrion agrees with). And we find out that was suggested by Varys, who we already knew was trying to undermine the regime in preparation for an invasion, and would prefer for Barristan's prestige to be lent to his own rival cause.

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Robert chose to bring back the organization, and basically pardoned the two surviving members of the old regime.  Something he didn’t have to do.

There was no "bringing back" of an organization that didn't actually end. And that's the same number of KG that transferred from Aegon II to Aegon III.

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Robert would have been well in his rights to “punish” them by removing them from the Kingsguard and then sentence them to either exile, or the Wall, only to then grant them a King’s pardon for their sentence, allowing them to live their lives as they saw fit.

A king's justice has never extended to overriding a vow of lifetime service.

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Which makes me think conversely, if Jaime did not want to resume his role as a Kingsguard in the new kingdom, Robert would not have stood in his way.

Refusing to serve the new king rather than the old king undermines Robert's authority.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Very simply, Robert was leading a rebellion in which he sought to have as many people as possible switch sides from loyalty to Aerys vs Robert. The nature of Robert's rebellion was not to end vows to remain in an order until death.

Not really a good argument, when your Kingsguard becomes most known for having the Kingslayer in it.  You guys focus so much on the lifetime vow, that you’re kind of losing sight of the actual purpose of the Kingsguard.  To protect the king with your life.  Not to kill the king.  The lifetime vow kind of goes by the waist side after you kill the king you swore a vow to protect.

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tywin says as much when he's accurately discussing how much Joffrey's new regime is screwing things up (which Tyrion agrees with). And we find out that was suggested by Varys, who we already knew was trying to undermine the regime in preparation for an invasion, and would prefer for Barristan's prestige to be lent to his own rival cause.

Nah, the issue is that they fired Barristan the Bold and replaced him with the lowly Hound (who isn’t even a freaking knight).  Yes it was unprecedented, but the real damage to their reputation was who they fired, moreso the manner of the firing.  Like I said, firing Blount wasn’t a blip on anyone’s radar.

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There was no "bringing back" of an organization that didn't actually end. And that's the same number of KG that transferred from Aegon II to Aegon III.

Of course it ended.  Jaime and Barristan had to be pardoned to come back in the fold, and while Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell, still thought of themselves as Kingsguards, they sure didn’t think of themselves as Robert’s Kingsguards.  

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

A king's justice has never extended to overriding a vow of lifetime service

Of course it has.  Ask Lucomore the lusty (or whatever his name was).  He didn’t serve out his lifetime vow to the Kingsguard.  And while Toyne sat in a cell waiting his execution, he certainly didn’t do it as a Kingsguard.  

You guys are making much too big a deal over this lifetime service, and not nearly enough of a deal about Jaime’s killing of Aerys.

Once again, convince me that Robert would have cared about a Kingsguard’s lifetime vow, when Robert couldn’t care about a Kingsguard’s primary vow.  

[FictionIsntReal]

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The lifetime vow kind of goes by the waist side after you kill the king you swore a vow to protect.

I believe you meant to say "wayside", and Jaime himself asserts to Tywin that he's still bound by his vows when offered Casterly Rock. Tywin's argument wasn't that Jaime's violation of any oath ended them, but instead that Cersei's foolish dismissal of Barristan "on grounds of age" had finally created a precedent to remove a member of the KG that could be deemed no longer fit for service.

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Of course it ended.

No, of course it didn't.

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Jaime and Barristan had to be pardoned to come back in the fold

Robert pardoned everyone, including people who hadn't sworn such oaths like Varys. The Small Council didn't cease to exist either (the position of Grand Maester in particular is supposed to be mean serving who ever holds that particular castle).

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Of course it has.  Ask Lucomore the lusty (or whatever his name was).

His name had been Strong. And he was forced into the NW. The NW take holy oaths, and such oaths are the only things that can override earlier oaths, like Quentyn Ball's marriage (or Baelor the Blessed becoming a septon after he'd earlier been forced into a marriage). So Robert could send Jaime to the NW or execute him, but he can't release Jaime to be heir to CR.

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And while Toyne sat in a cell waiting his execution, he certainly didn’t do it as a Kingsguard.

Citation needed.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 10/9/2021 at 6:40 AM, Firefae said:

So why did he name Jaime Warden Of The East and threathen Ned to name him Hand Of The King.

The Lannister debt, and Robert's the kind of man who's easily manipulated by women it seems. 

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course it has.  Ask Lucomore the lusty (or whatever his name was).  He didn’t serve out his lifetime vow to the Kingsguard.  And while Toyne sat in a cell waiting his execution, he certainly didn’t do it as a Kingsguard.  

 

Toyne was captured, and executed by torture probably immediately......not cells needed, unless you count the torture cell. 

On 10/9/2021 at 6:43 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

The threat was a joke not to be taken seriously

From the context, I highly doubt it was a joke. Reread that exchange.