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The Three I’d Question #1: Don’t Mistake the Crow for the Conspiracy


Mourning Star

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On 10/6/2021 at 11:59 AM, Mourning Star said:

The fact that the crow and the Weirwood appear to Bran separately, and only sometimes together, is a clear indication that these are two distinct entities in his dreams.

...

And this is, I believe, how Bran sees Bloodraven in his dreams, as the Weirwood.

It is also worth noting that the Weirwood in Bran’s dreams doesn’t seem to do more than try to call to him, and watch.

... 

This odd behavior of the crow in relation to the tree leads me to believe, not only are these separate entities, but that they are at crossed purposes. ...

Very nice catch! I haven't seen this point made or emphasized (that I can recall - I have forgotten a lot I have read in this forum over the years). It makes a lot of sense that the weirwood and the three-eyed-crow are at odds in attempting to foster or control Bran; maybe they are at odds in the world of Westeros in other matters, as well. In other posts, I have noted that GRRM uses a lot of pairs of balancing forces (shaggy & sharp, bitter & sweet, smiler & slayer, etc.). The weirwood and the crow as opposites or balancing forces would make another interesting pair.

One of my early suspected wordplay clues was the little anagram "deserter = red trees." If that is truly a clue from the author, the suspicion that Bloodraven deserted the Night's Watch would fit with the idea that he is a weirwood in Bran's dreams. Ned beheads the deserter Gared on the stump of a tree, if I recall correctly. Mance is one of he most famous deserters. Is he also a tree? Maybe he is in the process of becoming one: red silk is added to his black cloak; Melisandre compels the wildlings to burn weirwood branches when she sacrifices "Mance" (actually Rattleshirt) to Red R'hllor. She uses a red ruby to control Mance as a glamor. A more full analysis would require looking for weirwood symbolism in other deserters such as Dareon, the NW singer killed by Arya and possibly Nimble Dick Crabb (suspected of being a deserter by Brienne). Maybe also Jon Snow, who is nearly deserts and is later suspected of being a deserter.

On 10/6/2021 at 11:59 AM, Mourning Star said:

As I mentioned briefly above, I believe the voice is important.

The Three-eyed Crow first speaks to Bran and,

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“The voice was high and thin.”
A Game of Thrones - Bran III

 

...

We also see the three-eyed crow’s voice described another way:

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On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.
A Clash of Kings - Bran II

It is in this line that I think we see some beautiful wordplay come full circle.

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When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain.
A Game of Thrones - Prologue

In the prologue, the swords are described as sounding high and thin, like the crow’s voice, a voice as sharp as swords.

This is also a very nice catch! But I thought you were going to go in a different direction from this point. Probably I am the only person to think this way because of two old pet theories of mine:

1) eyes = ice (because of the pun)

2) Theon personifies the sword, Ice.

If Ice = eyes, and Theon IS ice (it's more complex than that, I realize - click on the link for additional thoughts) then it would make sense that he could be the three-eyed crow. Two eyes in his mortal head and an additional "eye" in the form of the House Stark sword. 

As I read your post, I was also thinking that Theon seems to hear Bran's voice when he is near the Winterfell godswood heart tree. If the weirwood and the three-eyed-crow have a special push/pull for each other, it might make sense that Theon and Bran would have a special ability to communicate, even when Bran is in the tree. 

Notably, Theon also saves Bran's life by shooting a deserter with an arrow. So there would be the three-eyed-crow fighting with the "red trees" for control of Bran. 

But I also see the logic in Old Nan as the Three-Eyed-Crow. 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150877-the-three-eyed-crow-is-old-nan-not-bloodraven/&do=findComment&comment=8166417

I am not persuaded by your citations about Old Nan being a hidden Targ, however. White hair is not unique to Targaryens, as far as I can recall. As you point out, her eyes are described as pale and filmy. Except for the Dornish Targs, Targaryen eyes are always shades of violet, lavender, purple, etc. The word "pale" has its own set of associations. (tl;dr - the word "pale" is associated with old places, many of which may be doorways between life and death.) I would agree that Old Nan and Maester Aemon share some special insights because of their blindness, but I believe GRRM is telling us that blindness brings a special kind of vision, not that Old Nan and Maester Aemon are both Targaryens. 

In that 2018 post, I noted that Hodor's real name is Walder. Old Nan also uses the word "mayhaps" at some point, which is associated with House Frey and the Lord of the Crossing game. I think the evidence is strong that Old Nan has a Frey connection, if not direct lineage. 

But that adds to the interesting juxtaposition of the Three-eyed-crow and the weirwood. "Wald" means woods. Why would GRRM want us to link the Three-Eyed-Crow back to woods? 

As I say, I hadn't considered the possibility of Theon as the Three-Eyed-Crow until I started anticipating the point I thought you were going to make, based on your sword connection to the "voice" of the crow. The haters that have already perched on your thread are really going to hate this but maybe the answer is that Theon and Old Nan are both the Three-Eyed-Crow:

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"Theon led the way up the stairs. I have climbed these steps a thousand times before. As a boy he would run up; descending, he would take the steps three at a time, leaping. Once he leapt right into Old Nan and knocked her to the floor. That earned him the worst thrashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beatings his brothers used to give him back on Pyke.” (ADWD, Reek II)

In ASOIAF, we are shown that some people (wargs and skinchangers) have the power to co-occupy an animal or human's body. We are not told that Theon has that power, but figuratively, the author is telling us that Theon "leapt into" Old Nan. I would also note that beating (hammering) is what a smith does to shape metal or make a sword. Theon being thrashed after knocking down Old Nan could be a symbolic version of making a sword out of two metals, much the way that Tobho Mott combines layers of Lannister crimson with Stark Grey to make Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. 

You are right that Old Nan is linked to needles. That strengthens the notion of a sword in her hand (or two swords, since she is knitting, not sewing). But I believe the first person who sews in AGoT is Septa Mordane, who is supposed to teach Sansa and Arya how to embroider. I do think Septa Mordane has an important hidden identity because her head is displayed alongside Ned's head on the wall of the Red Keep. But I digress. My point is that needles are associated with sentinel pines, Arya's sword (made by Micken, who is killed by Theon), Tyrion and Septa Lemore (on the Shy Maid), Cersei's dressmaker, etc. Old Nan is definitely in the mix, but not alone in this symbolism. 

But your post is a very nice addition to the evolving analysis of the Three-Eyed-Crow. Thanks for your good insights and ample use of citations from the books.

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I was about to make a fairly lengthy post about the topic, but @Seams beat me to it, I would just be echoing both his kudos and criticisms.

I would just add that Old Nan can have an interesting backstory without the need for her to be a Targaryen princess or any other type of nobility.  

And she can be an extremely significant character without being the three-eyed crow.

After all, her stories helped shape the imagination of potentially the most powerful telepath to ever enter the weirnet who’s imagination can further shape events perhaps in both the past, present, and future.  

I think Old Nan’s significance is in her stories.

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“The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. “My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too.”

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“Stories wait, my little lord, and when you come back to them, why, there they are,”

 

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The Mercy chapter has a curious needle wielding character: the Snapper, the mistress of wardrobe that everyone fears.

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The Bloody Hand was about to start, and the Snapper would be looking for her to help with costumes. Izembaro might be the King of the Mummers, but the Snapper was the one that they all feared

Another scary needle wielding character is sweet and gentle Tyene:

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"Does it hurt so much?" Lady Tyene's voice was gentle, and she looked as sweet as summer strawberries. Her mother had been a septa, and Tyene had an air of almost otherworldy innocence about her. "Is there aught that I might do to ease your pain?"

"Say what you would and let me rest. I am weary, Tyene."

"I made this for you, Uncle." Tyene unfolded the piece she'd been embroidering. It showed her father, Prince Oberyn, mounted on a sand steed and armored all in red, smiling. "When I finish, it is yours, to help you remember him."

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“Oh, I must pray that I never see you frightened, Uncle. You might forget to breathe.” She raised a hand…

The captain brought the butt of his longaxe down upon the marble with a thump. “My lady, you presume. Step from the dais, if it please you.”

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No sooner had she taken her leave than Maester Caleotte hurried to the dais. “My prince, she did not…here, let me see your hand.” He examined the palm first, then gently turned it upside down to sniff at the back of the prince’s fingers. “No, good. That is good. There are no scratches, so…”

Makes me wonder how sweet and gentle Elia really was.

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Regarding the mystery of the three-eyed crow.  One potential clue is that the crow knows exactly what happened when Bran climbed the tower, and he knows Bran well enough to know that Bran couldn’t handle that knowledge at that time.

And who would know both that event and what Bran could or could not handle, better than Bran himself?

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6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

It has iron swords in the crypts below. In addition the old soties mention the Others hating iron. But, the Andals were said to bring iron to Westeros.

 

Rhoynar taught the art of making iron in Essos? I can’t recall. Rhoynr-Royce? The Nymeria are old Ghis so real Rhoynar maybe went north. Mudd 

Anyway, I’ve always thought The Outsiders and The Others had a connection. I’m not a fan of 1-1 thinking either. It’s a very short story that I’m sure GRRM magnified with his magnificence, if influenced by. 

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Regarding the mystery of the three-eyed crow.  One potential clue is that the crow knows exactly what happened when Bran climbed the tower, and he knows Bran well enough to know that Bran couldn’t handle that knowledge at that time.

And who would know both that event and what Bran could or could not handle, better than Bran himself?

When Bran went climbing, he took along corn to feed the crows. Maybe one of those crows shared the details with the three-eyed-crow.

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56 minutes ago, Seams said:

When Bran went climbing, he took along corn to feed the crows. Maybe one of those crows shared the details with the three-eyed-crow.

My suspicion is that the sci-fi writer in GRRM, can’t help but play with the idea of temporal paradox.  I think the 3 eyed crow, might be future Bran, reaching back in time through the weirnet to open his own third eye.

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That won’t do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be. I’m doing it.

In other words, how hard can it be, since Bran learned how to fly, then Bran should be able to learn how to fly.

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A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.
Bran screamed.
The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away.

Why is the three eyed crow so familiar with this scene?  Because he’s Bran.  

Bran doesn’t need it now, but apparently might need to access this in the future.  So why would the three eyed crow know this?  Because he’s from the future.

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Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.
“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.
Because winter is coming.

Stark words.

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7 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

that may be true in the case of Arya while under cover, but I don't think we can safely conclude from that, that old nan is a Nymeria. Arya just has the propensity to adopt names from people she knows, and she knew a nan, and she knew a Nymeria, and so borrowed names from both. the only other example of a nymeria I can think of who uses is a nickname is lady Nym, which is clearly stylized differently. we may dismiss that as north vs south name variation... but that's a little arbitrary. And its not like at any point in time do we hear old nan or anyone say anything along the lines of, "wow Arya, your wolf is named nymeria just like me." 
 

I’ll agree it’s a little odd of a nickname, and it’s not impossible that Arya just made it up, but it’s what we are given by the story, and it doesn’t get questioned.

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All to say I feel there are a few assumptions with this aspect of the claim that I'm not prepared to accept at face value.

Does it though? bran is with bloodraven regardless, and nan has not seemed to do anything in the meantime in regards to contacting any other stark children with this supposed power. that she is alive at all is more just a conceit at this point given the untrustworthiness of boltons. wouldnt maester Aemon want to know about how his sister and great grandnephew are doing, so close as they are?

So yes, it does. Remember Nan is a much older character than Bloodraven in the grand scheme of the stories creation. 

I have no reason to think Aemon knows Nan is there, and suspect she holds a grudge against her family (or them against her), that is usually why one hides away and changes ones name. He probably assumes she is dead like everyone else.

Nan came to Winterfell for Brandon Stark, Bloodraven has waited for a Brandon Stark, I simply do not think this is a coincidence. It’s not clear that the other Stark children share Bran’s gift (or at least not to the same magnitude).

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I'm also not sure how I feel about the claim that bloodraven is evil. power-hungry? maybe, but he has always been loyal to his family and the realm in his own way. like Tyrion he seems evil, but more so he's just sinister looking which greatly effects both reputations. he is a sort of conduit of the old gods, and if the old gods were the enemy, wouldnt the first men after the last long night do all they could to suppress their worship? 
 

Has he always been loyal? Honest question, because I don’t think that is so clear. An awful lot of Targaryens died over the years as Bloodraven was king in all but name.

Opposing Blackfyres (or Bittersteel) isn’t the same as being loyal. 

And as for evil, I’m sure he will have his share of human motivations, but he’s broken just about every moral rule we’ve been given including just about all the laws of gods and men, casting the sentence without swinging the sword, not being afraid (instead of being brave), and maybe it’s just really hard for me to believe the public figure hanging men by the side of the road will be a good guy.

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and wargs are more old blood not valyrian blood, which as a Blackwoods would explain bloodraven being a warg, but not nan- within the confines of the claim that she is Rhea at least.

Wargs are for wolves!

I think you will find the Targaryens had their share of magic blood, and their bond with their dragons is much like the Starks with their wolves, dreams and all. I’m not convinced it isn’t all the same magic blood.

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

When Bran went climbing, he took along corn to feed the crows. Maybe one of those crows shared the details with the three-eyed-crow.

Loved your longer post and will try to put together a response to do it justice when I can.

I will say when it comes to wordplay there does seem to be a ton going on, to the point where it’s hard to tell what was intentional. That said it’s all fun.

In this case , it’s hard for me to avoid the “crone” (the guide to wisdom of the seven, like Virgil & Beatrice for Dante) and “crow - nan”. As well as the more obvious, “crow” and “crown”.

Anyway, be well, and I hope to comment more soon

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My suspicion is that the sci-fi writer in GRRM, can’t help but play with the idea of temporal paradox.  I think the 3 eyed crow, might be future Bran, reaching back in time through the weirnet to open his own third eye.

If I’m being honest I don’t hate this idea, I just like Nan from a story telling perspective better.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

In other words, how hard can it be, since Bran learned how to fly, then Bran should be able to learn how to fly.

Or an Old Woman can do it… 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why is the three eyed crow so familiar with this scene?  Because he’s Bran.

To be fair, if the crow is in Bran’s dream about it that might be how it’s familiar with the dream.

And everyone, including Nan, warned Bran he might fall.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Bran doesn’t need it now, but apparently might need to access this in the future.  So why would the three eyed crow know this?  Because he’s from the future.

Stark words.

And what makes you a Stark?

"Why, it isn't even winter." Theon would have laughed if he had dared. He remembered tales Old Nan had told them of storms that raged for forty days and forty nights, for a year, for ten years … storms that buried castles and cities and whole kingdoms under a hundred feet of snow.

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1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

So yes, it does. Remember Nan is a much older character than Bloodraven in the grand scheme of the stories creation. 

I have no reason to think Aemon knows Nan is there, and suspect she holds a grudge against her family (or them against her), that is usually why one hides away and changes ones name. He probably assumes she is dead like everyone else.

 

is nan an older character or just a character revealed more immediately? if bloodraven is the three eyed crow, then as a character they would have emerged in the same books. was bloodraven actually conceived of as a character later on? ive never read anything to that particular effect. that mod who knows George might have a better idea, but beyond that im not so sure that claim is concrete. if you find some evidence to that effect though I will consider that aspect of the claim more carefully.

Im also unsure why we should assume Aemon fought with his sister. if we are to assume dunk did have a fling with her, its likely aegon v knew where she was and would have told his brother after the fact. this is also ignoring the probably disgusting age difference between dunk and rhea. I just believe there is not enough material released to make a claim in such an effect without is being baseless speculation. it could be a hundred things or nothing. I feel to the purposes of nan being the three eyed raven, her being a targ is not necessary or really easy to support as a base claim. non of the skin changers we have seen so far (with the possible exception of Jon) have been Targaryens.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Wargs are for wolves!

I think you will find the Targaryens had their share of magic blood, and their bond with their dragons is much like the Starks with their wolves, dreams and all. I’m not convinced it isn’t all the same magic blood.

wargs are actually just the name for the wolf skin changers, you are correct. and Targaryens do have a share of interesting magic associated with their blood, but all modern known targs are at least half Blackwoods by blood since the spawn of Aegon V. Daeron did show a propensity as a dreamer and magic was rumored of Shiera but her mom was a witch. Dragon riders dominate their mounts, but nothing has ever been claimed to the effect that they skinchange into them. the magic may be related or similar, but this is tentative at best and makes a few assumptions about how magic works in asoiaf.  

 

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Nan came to Winterfell for Brandon Stark, Bloodraven has waited for a Brandon Stark, I simply do not think this is a coincidence. It’s not clear that the other Stark children share Bran’s gift (or at least not to the same magnitude).

Nan came to winterfell for Brandon stark, son of William stark by Lyanna Glover. both the wife and the child died before William remarried to Melantha Blackwood. the Starks use that name as the targs use aegon. it is an interesting coincidence and it may suggest more than what I'm seeing, but that alone does not feel very solid to me.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Has he always been loyal? Honest question, because I don’t think that is so clear. An awful lot of Targaryens died over the years as Bloodraven was king in all but name.

Opposing Blackfyres (or Bittersteel) isn’t the same as being loyal. 

And as for evil, I’m sure he will have his share of human motivations, but he’s broken just about every moral rule we’ve been given including just about all the laws of gods and men, casting the sentence without swinging the sword, not being afraid (instead of being brave), and maybe it’s just really hard for me to believe the public figure hanging men by the side of the road will be a good guy.

Daeron was the legitimate king and by his own account, for whatever it is worth, Brynden did love his brother. he was brutal, but never without reason. he could have taken young aegon hostage but never did so. its easy for their to be negative optics for the spy master. he's like Varys or Tyrion or that mangled, masked Lannister from the post dance (forget his name). he's not a good person, but he's not a villain either. he's an anti hero doing the bad thing for the greater good. killing the blackfyres was kinslaying, but also the only way to end the rebellion. he even willingly went to the wall after his last "Betrayal" of decency for the sake of creating peace, and despite his methods, his plans worked. he never seized power himself or had any children to speak of. he's never done a bad thing without a good reason as far as I can see, and im not sure why we should assume otherwise given his current ... occupation, besides what aesthetics may suggest. he is by all accounts teaching bran to fly.

 

Overall I'm not as opposed to Nan being the three eyed crow as much as I'm opposed to her being a Targaryen. Bloodraven is undoubtably my favorite pic for the three eyed crow, but you do make a good overall argument for nan. after bran himself, I would consider her a possible candidate, but for now I feel there are too many assumptions that have to be made for nan to reasonably be the three eyed crow.

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Just to make sure what the OP claims:

-Old Nan is Rhae Targaryen, but we can also see her kissing with Ser Duncan, where she has brown hair, and no purple eyes. Not in visions or in real life either. However, this conclusion (or that she is 100% a Targaryen) is drawn from the fact that her eye color hadn't been revealed and she has white hair by the age of 90+.

-Rhae Targaryen had an affair with Ser Duncan the Tall, and had children with him, altough she is younger than Egg. 

-Rhae Targaryen was a wetnurse to multiple generations of Starks. 

-Rhae Targaryen had a troublesome relationship with his brother Aemon for no particular reason so far, altough Aemon can remember Rhae singing to her children, which is a sweet memory to him. 

-Old Nan let Bran go to Bloodraven, altough she is the 3EC. 

-Old Nan is the 3EC, because the Other's weapons are sharp as a needle, and we often see Old Nan use a needle. 

-Bloodraven can't be the 3EC because crows are all liars. (which means whoever the 3EC is, is a liar) And only bad people lie, like Bloodraven. 

-Rhae Targaryen went to Winterfell to be a wetnurse, which based on the fact that she had an affair with Ser Duncan, had to happen while she was a child, around the time Ser Duncan went to the North as well. 

-Old Nan has to be the 3EC because she knows a lot of stories. (Stories that a typical storytelling figure around a campfire would know as well.)

-Some of Rhae's children by Ser Duncan also married into other noble Westerosi houses, making Brienne as well a descendant of Ser Duncan (which might be, but I don't think through this way) 

-Bloodraven can't be simply on the side of humanity, because he was willing to sacrifice his own reputation to do the best for the realm (the best for the realm according to him, at least) 

I'd like to add here some other things the OP claims in other threads:

-Bloodraven woke the Others up against the realm he wanted to rule once/might still want.  Yes, yes, because Bloodraven did all the juicy kinslaying and bad stuff to be elected king as a legalised bastard with a tarnished reputation at a Great Council when he didn't even present himself as a candidate. Nor did anyone else. 

For real, I think Old Nan really is an interesting figure, who really had a love affair with Ser Duncan, etc, and Hodor is Ser Duncan's descendant. Along with that, she was!/is a storytelling figure that George used breaking the fourth wall/educating the readers about lore. I think Bloodraven isn't a good person, but he definitely tought his goals/means justified his actions, and I don't think he is any different now. Further away, I don't see why would he do all the Op claims he does as a represwntant of the Old Gods among the Children of the Forest. 

Also, I beg Mourning Star not to reply to this. I beg. 

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32 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Just to make sure what the OP claims:

-Old Nan is Rhae Targaryen, but we can also see her kissing with Ser Duncan, where she has brown hair, and no purple eyes. Not in visions or in real life either. However, this conclusion (or that she is 100% a Targaryen) is drawn from the fact that her eye color hadn't been revealed and she has white hair by the age of 90+.

-Rhae Targaryen had an affair with Ser Duncan the Tall, and had children with him, altough she is younger than Egg. 

-Rhae Targaryen was a wetnurse to multiple generations of Starks. 

-Rhae Targaryen had a troublesome relationship with his brother Aemon for no particular reason so far, altough Aemon can remember Rhae singing to her children, which is a sweet memory to him. 

-Old Nan let Bran go to Bloodraven, altough she is the 3EC. 

-Old Nan is the 3EC, because the Other's weapons are sharp as a needle, and we often see Old Nan use a needle. 

-Bloodraven can't be the 3EC because crows are all liars. (which means whoever the 3EC is, is a liar) And only bad people lie, like Bloodraven. 

-Rhae Targaryen went to Winterfell to be a wetnurse, which based on the fact that she had an affair with Ser Duncan, had to happen while she was a child, around the time Ser Duncan went to the North as well. 

-Old Nan has to be the 3EC because she knows a lot of stories. (Stories that a typical storytelling figure around a campfire would know as well.)

-Some of Rhae's children by Ser Duncan also married into other noble Westerosi houses, making Brienne as well a descendant of Ser Duncan (which might be, but I don't think through this way) 

-Bloodraven can't be simply on the side of humanity, because he was willing to sacrifice his own reputation to do the best for the realm (the best for the realm according to him, at least) 

I'd like to add here some other things the OP claims in other threads:

-Bloodraven woke the Others up against the realm he wanted to rule once/might still want.  Yes, yes, because Bloodraven did all the juicy kinslaying and bad stuff to be elected king as a legalised bastard with a tarnished reputation at a Great Council when he didn't even present himself as a candidate. Nor did anyone else. 

For real, I think Old Nan really is an interesting figure, who really had a love affair with Ser Duncan, etc, and Hodor is Ser Duncan's descendant. Along with that, she was!/is a storytelling figure that George used breaking the fourth wall/educating the readers about lore. I think Bloodraven isn't a good person, but he definitely tought his goals/means justified his actions, and I don't think he is any different now. Further away, I don't see why would he do all the Op claims he does as a represwntant of the Old Gods among the Children of the Forest. 

Also, I beg Mourning Star not to reply to this. I beg. 

And people say I am into tinfoil. 

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8 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

is nan an older character or just a character revealed more immediately?

I’m not sure what else I would mean by being an older character. This is nothing earth shattering, just a little meta logic which makes a lot of sense to me.

She is right there from the start, mentioned before she even appears on the page. Bloodraven wasn’t invented until years and books later.

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if bloodraven is the three eyed crow, then as a character they would have emerged in the same books. was bloodraven actually conceived of as a character later on? ive never read anything to that particular effect. that mod who knows George might have a better idea, but beyond that im not so sure that claim is concrete. if you find some evidence to that effect though I will consider that aspect of the claim more carefully.

I’m basing this purely off of the text and when they first appear. It’s not impossible that GRRM would wait to invent the whole backstory for a protagonist’s guide/teacher, but it would be really weird. 

Mance is a great example of a character there from the start, mentioned right away, even though it takes a long time to meet him in person on the page.

If Bloodraven is the three eyed crow it would be extremely odd not to even mention the person behind the secret identity until so late. But certainly not impossible. To be fair I’m suggesting the backstory for Nan wasn’t solidified until later as well, but that’s still a step closer than Bloodraven.

As with most of these details, no one is a sure thing or proof positive, but when you look at the sum of them I think it starts to paint a picture.

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Im also unsure why we should assume Aemon fought with his sister.

I don’t think she did. Sorry if I phrased my thinking poorly, looking back I was kind of rambling and firing from the hip.

I was trying to say that she has some reason for hiding, what exactly that is I can’t possibly say, I was just throwing out options. A familial dispute seems an obvious possibility, especially given the dysfunctional Targaryens.

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if we are to assume dunk did have a fling with her, its likely aegon v knew where she was and would have told his brother after the fact.

Perhaps, Egg disowned his eldest son for marrying Jenny of Oldstones, so I’m not so sure if he would know or how he would react.

There is a lot unfinished and unsaid with respect to the Dunk and Egg plot line. 

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this is also ignoring the probably disgusting age difference between dunk and rhea.

About ten years? It’s not nothing, but calling it disgusting seems aggressive. I feel like it’s easy to forget how young Dunk probably is during those stories.

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 I just believe there is not enough material released to make a claim in such an effect without is being baseless speculation. it could be a hundred things or nothing. I feel to the purposes of nan being the three eyed raven, her being a targ is not necessary or really easy to support as a base claim. non of the skin changers we have seen so far (with the possible exception of Jon) have been Targaryens.

I’ll try to find the quote, but I think GRRM has said that the three eyed crow has always been intended to have Targaryen blood.

Im doing my best with what we’ve got. That Bloodraven is not the Three Eyed Crow seems certain to me, that it is Nan seems likely, and Nan’s identity is mostly a best guess.

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wargs are actually just the name for the wolf skin changers, you are correct. and Targaryens do have a share of interesting magic associated with their blood, but all modern known targs are at least half Blackwoods by blood since the spawn of Aegon V. Daeron did show a propensity as a dreamer and magic was rumored of Shiera but her mom was a witch. Dragon riders dominate their mounts, but nothing has ever been claimed to the effect that they skinchange into them. the magic may be related or similar, but this is tentative at best and makes a few assumptions about how magic works in asoiaf.  

Yes, I have opinions about the magic…  and to be honest I have never understood how anyone could attribute so much magic power to Bloodraven when he’s seemingly not used it to help anyone at all.

In my opinion it’s not at all clear if he is even capable of speaking through dreams.

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Nan came to winterfell for Brandon stark, son of William stark by Lyanna Glover. both the wife and the child died before William remarried to Melantha Blackwood. the Starks use that name as the targs use aegon. it is an interesting coincidence and it may suggest more than what I'm seeing, but that alone does not feel very solid to me.

I’d argue that it is a strong parallel to the Prince that was Promised, if not literally the same.

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Daeron was the legitimate king and by his own account, for whatever it is worth, Brynden did love his brother.

Brynden had a lot of brothers, I’m not sold that this is a reference to Daeron.

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he was brutal, but never without reason. he could have taken young aegon hostage but never did so. its easy for their to be negative optics for the spy master. he's like Varys or Tyrion or that mangled, masked Lannister from the post dance (forget his name). he's not a good person, but he's not a villain either. he's an anti hero doing the bad thing for the greater good. killing the blackfyres was kinslaying, but also the only way to end the rebellion. he even willingly went to the wall after his last "Betrayal" of decency for the sake of creating peace, and despite his methods, his plans worked. he never seized power himself or had any children to speak of. he's never done a bad thing without a good reason as far as I can see, and im not sure why we should assume otherwise given his current ... occupation, besides what aesthetics may suggest. he is by all accounts teaching bran to fly.

We don’t know that he didn’t take Aegon hostage. We really don’t know much about the events leading up to Egg becoming King.

We do know Brynden successfully passed over the rightful heir with his Great Council. Even if you throw out the claim of a woman, there was baby Maegor. If he was “truly loyal” then the succession was clear. We know he wanted someone else to be king, it isn’t clear who, although I suspect he intended to be king himself (having been legitimized by the same act that gave the Blackfyres a claim).

I think it’s important to note that we don’t know if Bloodraven went to the Wall willingly. He was sentenced to die and allowed to take the Black, and arrived with more guards than anyone since Nymeria sent multiple kings to the Wall. Egg might have told Aemon it was his honor guard, but it sure seems like they were there to make sure Bloodraven and his followers made it without incident (like what happened with Bittersteel). 

Bloodraven eventually becomes Lord Commander, and after 13 years he breaks his oath and deserts his post.

Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. 

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Overall I'm not as opposed to Nan being the three eyed crow as much as I'm opposed to her being a Targaryen. Bloodraven is undoubtably my favorite pic for the three eyed crow, but you do make a good overall argument for nan. after bran himself, I would consider her a possible candidate, but for now I feel there are too many assumptions that have to be made for nan to reasonably be the three eyed crow.

Hopefully one day we get more definitive answers! 

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18 hours ago, Seams said:

Very nice catch! I haven't seen this point made or emphasized (that I can recall - I have forgotten a lot I have read in this forum over the years). It makes a lot of sense that the weirwood and the three-eyed-crow are at odds in attempting to foster or control Bran; maybe they are at odds in the world of Westeros in other matters, as well. In other posts, I have noted that GRRM uses a lot of pairs of balancing forces (shaggy & sharp, bitter & sweet, smiler & slayer, etc.). The weirwood and the crow as opposites or balancing forces would make another interesting pair.

At the end of the day I think this is a story about human conflict, both internal and external, so I would be shocked if there isn't a human behind the return of the Others. Bloodraven, for many reasons, seems to me to be be the likely culprit. 

I long suspected the Godswoods were built to wall in the Weirwoods rather than to defend them. This would also explain why the Night's watch oath mentions walls, instead of the Wall.

The watchers on the walls

18 hours ago, Seams said:

One of my early suspected wordplay clues was the little anagram "deserter = red trees." If that is truly a clue from the author, the suspicion that Bloodraven deserted the Night's Watch would fit with the idea that he is a weirwood in Bran's dreams. Ned beheads the deserter Gared on the stump of a tree, if I recall correctly. Mance is one of he most famous deserters. Is he also a tree? Maybe he is in the process of becoming one: red silk is added to his black cloak; Melisandre compels the wildlings to burn weirwood branches when she sacrifices "Mance" (actually Rattleshirt) to Red R'hllor. She uses a red ruby to control Mance as a glamor. A more full analysis would require looking for weirwood symbolism in other deserters such as Dareon, the NW singer killed by Arya and possibly Nimble Dick Crabb (suspected of being a deserter by Brienne). Maybe also Jon Snow, who is nearly deserts and is later suspected of being a deserter.

Mance does wear ravenwings on his helm.

And another interesting deserter from the wildling side is Red Raven... raven rhymes with craven (literally given to us as such in the text) who ran after the invasion led by his brother Raymun Redbeard was defeated in the time of Dunk and Egg.

18 hours ago, Seams said:

This is also a very nice catch! But I thought you were going to go in a different direction from this point. Probably I am the only person to think this way because of two old pet theories of mine:

1) eyes = ice (because of the pun)

2) Theon personifies the sword, Ice.

If Ice = eyes, and Theon IS ice (it's more complex than that, I realize - click on the link for additional thoughts) then it would make sense that he could be the three-eyed crow. Two eyes in his mortal head and an additional "eye" in the form of the House Stark sword. 

As I read your post, I was also thinking that Theon seems to hear Bran's voice when he is near the Winterfell godswood heart tree. If the weirwood and the three-eyed-crow have a special push/pull for each other, it might make sense that Theon and Bran would have a special ability to communicate, even when Bran is in the tree. 

Notably, Theon also saves Bran's life by shooting a deserter with an arrow. So there would be the three-eyed-crow fighting with the "red trees" for control of Bran. 

Theon is an interesting character, and one who very much embodies one of the series larger themes, namely; "who am I" and what does it mean to be part of a family.

The quote below has always struck me.

As a boy he would run up; descending, he would take the steps three at a time, leaping. Once he leapt right into Old Nan and knocked her to the floor. That earned him the worst thrashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beatings his brothers used to give him back on Pyke. He and Robb had fought many a heroic battle on these steps, slashing at one another with wooden swords.

18 hours ago, Seams said:

But I also see the logic in Old Nan as the Three-Eyed-Crow. 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150877-the-three-eyed-crow-is-old-nan-not-bloodraven/&do=findComment&comment=8166417

I am not persuaded by your citations about Old Nan being a hidden Targ, however. White hair is not unique to Targaryens, as far as I can recall. As you point out, her eyes are described as pale and filmy. Except for the Dornish Targs, Targaryen eyes are always shades of violet, lavender, purple, etc. The word "pale" has its own set of associations. (tl;dr - the word "pale" is associated with old places, many of which may be doorways between life and death.) I would agree that Old Nan and Maester Aemon share some special insights because of their blindness, but I believe GRRM is telling us that blindness brings a special kind of vision, not that Old Nan and Maester Aemon are both Targaryens. 

White hair is not unique to Targaryens, but it is remarkable whenever we do not get hair/eye color for a character in this story. She doesn't even have to have purple eyes or sliver hair for this to be a relevant clue for the reader. 

Age and cataracts can make any eyes pale, as age can make hair turn white.

Rhae's mother was a Dayne, and her Grandmother was a Martell. The dark hair of her uncle Baelor actually being a plot point for Blackfyre complaints.

18 hours ago, Seams said:

In that 2018 post, I noted that Hodor's real name is Walder. Old Nan also uses the word "mayhaps" at some point, which is associated with House Frey and the Lord of the Crossing game. I think the evidence is strong that Old Nan has a Frey connection, if not direct lineage. 

I myself have looked for the Frey connection.

If anything I lean toward the Frey connection to Hodor being from the Non-Nan side of his family.

18 hours ago, Seams said:

But that adds to the interesting juxtaposition of the Three-eyed-crow and the weirwood. "Wald" means woods. Why would GRRM want us to link the Three-Eyed-Crow back to woods? 

Because I don't think the Weirwoods are inherently bad. I think there is a conflict between the Ravens (who currently rule the tree) and the crows (both the three eyed one and the Night's watch variety).

18 hours ago, Seams said:

As I say, I hadn't considered the possibility of Theon as the Three-Eyed-Crow until I started anticipating the point I thought you were going to make, based on your sword connection to the "voice" of the crow. The haters that have already perched on your thread are really going to hate this but maybe the answer is that Theon and Old Nan are both the Three-Eyed-Crow:

In ASOIAF, we are shown that some people (wargs and skinchangers) have the power to co-occupy an animal or human's body. We are not told that Theon has that power, but figuratively, the author is telling us that Theon "leapt into" Old Nan. I would also note that beating (hammering) is what a smith does to shape metal or make a sword. Theon being thrashed after knocking down Old Nan could be a symbolic version of making a sword out of two metals, much the way that Tobho Mott combines layers of Lannister crimson with Stark Grey to make Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. 

I think Theon may be symbolic of many things he is not literally. And his tragedy is that he is who he chooses to be, a good lesson for anyone. I'll have to think about this further.

18 hours ago, Seams said:

You are right that Old Nan is linked to needles. That strengthens the notion of a sword in her hand (or two swords, since she is knitting, not sewing). But I believe the first person who sews in AGoT is Septa Mordane, who is supposed to teach Sansa and Arya how to embroider. I do think Septa Mordane has an important hidden identity because her head is displayed alongside Ned's head on the wall of the Red Keep. But I digress. My point is that needles are associated with sentinel pines, Arya's sword (made by Micken, who is killed by Theon), Tyrion and Septa Lemore (on the Shy Maid), Cersei's dressmaker, etc. Old Nan is definitely in the mix, but not alone in this symbolism. 

I'm not sure the language surrounding the knitting/sowing is all perfect, and that might be on the author (let's call it artistic license). It does seem like she would be knitting for there to be click click clicks, but all the language seems to be about sewing and needles (which have eyes, as well as being sharp as swords).

There is a long tradition of the old woman weaver/sower/knitter in mythology.

And, because of the fantastic Norse mythological imagery surrounding Bran, in particular that of Baldur and Fenrir, I think it may be worth noting that Loki's mother was Laufey or Nal, "needle".

18 hours ago, Seams said:

But your post is a very nice addition to the evolving analysis of the Three-Eyed-Crow. Thanks for your good insights and ample use of citations from the books.

Thank you, it's a pleasure to chat with you!

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19 hours ago, Tucu said:

The Mercy chapter has a curious needle wielding character: the Snapper, the mistress of wardrobe that everyone fears.

The Snapper is also a toothless turtle.

"It was him," cried Yandry. "The Old Man of the River."
And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

They are found in the river that was home to Nymeria.

Tyrion saw more 'snappers sleeping in the slips where half a hundred ships might once have docked. He knew where he was then. That was Nymeria's palace, and this is all that remains of Ny Sar, her city.

And then the Snapper Seamstress you pointed out is standing besides a woman who shares the name of Daemon Blackfyre's mother!

Phario Forel had written it, and he had the bloodiest quill of all of Braavos.
Mercy found the company assembled behind the stage, and slipped in between Daena and the Snapper at the back, hoping her late arrival would go unnoticed. Izembaro was telling everyone that he expected the Gate to be packed to the rafters this evening, despite the fog. "The King of Westeros is sending his envoy to do homage to the King of the Mummers tonight," he told his troupe. "We will not disappoint our fellow monarch."

Thanks for pointing this out, might be something interesting to it, I'll have to dig a little and mull it over.

"Daena was old King Baelor's wife," said the oarsman. "I rowed on a ship named for her once. The Princess Daena."
"If she was a king's wife, she'd be a queen."
"Baelor never had a queen. He was holy."

19 hours ago, Tucu said:

Another scary needle wielding character is sweet and gentle Tyene:

Spears are sharp too, and Oberyn armed all his daughters!

Hotah studied each of them in turn. Obara, rusted nails and boiled leather, with her angry, close-set eyes and rat-brown hair. Nymeria, languid, elegant, olive-skinned, her long black braid bound up in red-gold wire. Tyene, blue-eyed and blond, a child-woman with her soft hands and little giggles.

And look, a Nan (Nymeria) with long dark hair!

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1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

The Snapper is also a toothless turtle.

"It was him," cried Yandry. "The Old Man of the River."
And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

They are found in the river that was home to Nymeria.

Tyrion saw more 'snappers sleeping in the slips where half a hundred ships might once have docked. He knew where he was then. That was Nymeria's palace, and this is all that remains of Ny Sar, her city.

And then the Snapper Seamstress you pointed out is standing besides a woman who shares the name of Daemon Blackfyre's mother!

Phario Forel had written it, and he had the bloodiest quill of all of Braavos.
Mercy found the company assembled behind the stage, and slipped in between Daena and the Snapper at the back, hoping her late arrival would go unnoticed. Izembaro was telling everyone that he expected the Gate to be packed to the rafters this evening, despite the fog. "The King of Westeros is sending his envoy to do homage to the King of the Mummers tonight," he told his troupe. "We will not disappoint our fellow monarch."

Thanks for pointing this out, might be something interesting to it, I'll have to dig a little and mull it over.

"Daena was old King Baelor's wife," said the oarsman. "I rowed on a ship named for her once. The Princess Daena."
"If she was a king's wife, she'd be a queen."
"Baelor never had a queen. He was holy."

Spears are sharp too, and Oberyn armed all his daughters!

Hotah studied each of them in turn. Obara, rusted nails and boiled leather, with her angry, close-set eyes and rat-brown hair. Nymeria, languid, elegant, olive-skinned, her long black braid bound up in red-gold wire. Tyene, blue-eyed and blond, a child-woman with her soft hands and little giggles.

And look, a Nan (Nymeria) with long dark hair!

Sometime ago I pulled some threads about turtles after reading an interview in which GRRM talks about his pet turtles:

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“In America at the time, in places like Woolworths, you could buy ‘dime store turtles’ – they came in a little plastic bowl, it had water down one side and a divider down the middle, gravel on the other side and a little fake palm tree. Those were the only pets we could have.

I had a toy castle set up near my bed, made of tin, and the courtyard was just big enough for two turtle tanks, and I had five or six turtles who lived in the castle. I decided they were knights, lords and kings, so I started writing this whole fantasy series about the turtle kingdom and the king of the turtles.

And these particular turtles seemed to die very easily. I don’t think it was really a very good environment for them. Sometimes they would escape and you would find them under the refrigerator a month later, all dead. So my turtles kept dying, which was very distressing but it also made me think, ‘Why are they dying? Well, they are killing each other in sinister plots.’ I started writing this fantasy about who was killing who, and the wars for succession. So Game of Thrones originally began with turtles, I think.”

"Game of Thrones originally began with turtles" :blink:

We get a description of more Rhoyne turtles in one of Tyrion's chapters. One of them matches Tyene's colours when she is introduced and another one is a bonesnapper:

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The early morning was the best time for seeing turtles. During the day they would swim down deep, or hide in cuts along the banks, but when the sun was newly risen they came to the surface. Some liked to swim beside the boat. Tyrion had glimpsed a dozen different sorts: large turtles and small ones, flatbacks and red-ears, softshells and bonesnappers, brown turtles, green turtles, black turtles, clawed turtles and horned turtles, turtles whose ridged and patterned shells were covered with whorls of gold and jade and cream

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Lady Tyene smiled at that. Her gown was cream and green, with long lace sleeves, so modest and so innocent that any man who looked at her might think her the most chaste of maids

Golden hair with a cream and green gown.

I expect one of these days all these turtle references will make sense :-)

Edit - I had to look-up who Daena was: Daemon Blackfyre's mother

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13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

In this case , it’s hard for me to avoid the “crone” (the guide to wisdom of the seven, like Virgil & Beatrice for Dante) and “crow - nan”. As well as the more obvious, “crow” and “crown”.

And don't forget "corn" in the crone / crown / Kron / crow series:

 

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Also, I beg Mourning Star not to reply to this. I beg. 

This is extremely rude. You come onto his / her thread, pick apart their post (in some ways, inaccurately) and then ask them not to reply. If you don't like the OP, you should stay off the thread. This is a forum and discussion is the purpose. Polite disagreement is fine; snide derision is not. If you just want to make personal attacks, there are many other places on the Internet where you can do so.

Oh, by the way, I beg you not to reply to this. Just go the fuck away.

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I’ll try to find the quote, but I think GRRM has said that the three eyed crow has always been intended to have Targaryen blood.

This is my understanding as well. GRRM knew from the beginning that there would be an elderly Targ character in the Bloodraven role but he hadn't fleshed out the background of the Blackfyre Rebellions until after ACoK. @Ran confirmed this in a thread a couple of years ago but I can't remember which thread it was. (I remember it, though, because it blew a hole in a theory I was trying to develop at the time.)

I don't think it makes a huge difference when a character is introduced in the series, although GRRM has said there will be no new POVs in the last two books. So many of his characters are echoes or parallels of characters in Old Nan's stories or in other legends and lore - they may have been introduced to us early on and we just don't recognize them yet.

12 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Daeron was the legitimate king and by his own account, for whatever it is worth, Brynden did love his brother. he was brutal, but never without reason. he could have taken young aegon hostage but never did so. its easy for their to be negative optics for the spy master. he's like Varys or Tyrion or that mangled, masked Lannister from the post dance (forget his name). he's not a good person, but he's not a villain either. he's an anti hero doing the bad thing for the greater good. killing the blackfyres was kinslaying, but also the only way to end the rebellion. he even willingly went to the wall after his last "Betrayal" of decency for the sake of creating peace, and despite his methods, his plans worked. he never seized power himself or had any children to speak of.

I think of Bloodraven as very similar to Tywin. Both great powers-behind-the-throne. That's where they prefer to stay, even though they like to exercise control. Think of the king being a chess piece and the "Hand of the King" as the chess player who moves the pieces.

I also think that Egg / Aegon V is going to turn out to be a dabbler in dark magic (in The Sworn Sword, remember how he warms up to the idea of training the small folk when he realizes they might be able to teach him about poison plants?) and that he will betray Bloodraven (and maybe also Dunk and Aemon). In The Mystery Knight, Bloodraven makes a point of sparing the life of Daemon II Blackfyre. The story of him later pulling a fast one and killing Aenys Blackfyre does not seem consistent with his logic in keeping Daemon II alive. I would not be surprised if Aegon V is the one who ordered the death of Aenys Blackfyre, pinning the blame on Bloodraven to get him out of he way, too. 

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