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The Three I’d Question #1: Don’t Mistake the Crow for the Conspiracy


Mourning Star

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35 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

So I would argue that even if you don’t think Nan is special, there is almost certainly another source of magic in The Gods Eye

Very possible.  But presumably we’ll be given evidence of it.  If we get some info indicating Old Nan may be a greenseer, then I’ll certainly reconsider.  

The one person that I suspect may be is Howland from this bit in the knight of the laughing tree:

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“No,” said Meera, “but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.”

The talking with trees bit makes me wonder if Howland might be a greenseer as well.

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14 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

And so there are! Thinking I’ll post them about once a month, and they’ll only get more contentious!

Oh that's sad because I'll no longer be here by that time.

Anyways your old nan is the three eyed crow has some faults but we can make it more believable. 

Old nan is just a servant at winterfell. Remove the rhae targaryen thing. That will resolve more than half your issues

 

 

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Because it’s not the same future Bran that appeared as the three-eyed crow.  My guess is that the Bran, Jon sees in his wolf dream is the Bran that had taken up residence in Bloodraven’s cave, and was directly connected to the weirnet in the cave.  So as you pointed out, Bloodraven is probably seen as the weirwood in Bran’s dreams.  Because Bloodraven is directly connected into the weirnet, and has pretty much become a part of the tree.  Likewise, when Jon sees Bran he’s seeing a Bran that is still human Bran, but he’s also become directly connected to the Weirwood.  Thus he appears to Jon as a Weirwood with Bran’s face.

My guess is, the three-eyed crow comes from a Bran even further in the future.

If I had to guess, the three eyed crow comes form a time when Westeros was already hit by the Long Night, or whatever apocalypse is fixing to hit Westeros.  And Bran’s body has been destroyed.  But his consciousness is living on through the crows, who survived the apocalypse.  Thus we have the three eyed crow momentarily distracted by his appetite for corn.  Because the three eyed crow has become an amalgam of crow and Bran’s consciousness.  

Ok, but what do you mean not the same future bran? The metaphor of time as a river used in these books doesn’t seem to be a multiple timeline setup. And I don’t understand why Bran would appear as a three eyed tree at one point and later (and before) as a three eyed crow. I don’t buy the apocalypse leaving only birds with Bran brains, sorry.

I think the crow is distinct from the trees.

If I were to speculate about Bran appearing as the sapling Weirwood to Jon, and Time travel bran generally… which again I’m not inclined to love the idea of in general. I would suggest that come the end of the story there will be no Iron Throne, and rather it will be replaced by a new Weirwood throne, Bran’s sapling.

But, I think it’s far more likely that Jon simply saw Bran in the crypts.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My suspicion is that everything Bloodraven is telling Bran he can’t do, Bran ends up doing.

I don’t know about everything, but yes, I certainly think Bran will be able to do things Bloodraven cannot. Namely speak through the trees.

1 hour ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

This would make sense with the theory that Bloodraven has manipulated history into the best possible outcome to fight the Others. He doesn’t want Bran to change any of the past because he has carefully worked for this future for the survival of humanity.

I highly doubt this is what’s going on, and I don’t think it really fits with this line of thinking at all.

I would argue that Leaf pretty much lays out for us how the Children in Bloodraven’s cave, and presumably Bloodraven, are not friends to Mankind.

Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrunthe world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us." 
She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

In this analogy Men are the deer, and presumably the Others are the wolves. She is saying that Men are in need of culling.

As Bran notes, men would fight and kill.

And we know the Children fought and killed before the pact, that they are not some inherently peaceful people content to be exterminated.

I would be willing to bet the farm that Bloodraven and these Children are behind the return of the Others. However, I would not be surprised at all to find factions among the Children as there are among men, and if I had to guess where to find Children still keeping to the pact, it would be the Isle of Faces in the Gods Eye.

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32 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Old nan is just a servant at winterfell. Remove the rhae targaryen thing. That will resolve more than half your issues

Rhae is really just a guess… but it’s really hard for me to see any alternative to Nan being of Targaryen blood. Everything else aside, I have never heard an alternate convincing explanation for why Bran would get no “princes” from Nan.

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55 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Ok, but what do you mean not the same future bran? The metaphor of time as a river used in these books doesn’t seem to be a multiple timeline setup. And I don’t understand why Bran would appear as a three eyed tree at one point and later (and before) as a three eyed crow. I don’t buy the apocalypse leaving only birds with Bran brains, sorry.

 

What I mean is the Bran that appears to Jon in the Ghost dream is the Bran in Bloodraven’s cave.  If Bran is the three eyed crow, I think this is Bran from further in the future.

He appears as a three eyed tree to Jon because he’s speaking to Jon through the weirwood network in Bloodraven’s cave.  My guess is at some point, Bloodraven’s cave and everyone in it is destroyed, Bran’s consciousness lives on, however.  And my guess is just like the COTF seem to have continuing after lives in the Ravens or crows, Bran does the same.

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Then he realized he was not alone.
“Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”
“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”
“Do all the birds have singers in them?”
“All,” Lord Brynden said.

I think this is Bran’s final destiny, his consciousness forever being one with the birds, after his human body is destroyed.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I think the crow is distinct from the trees.

I agree, I think this is Bran no longer tethered to the weirnet.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

If I were to speculate about Bran appearing as the sapling Weirwood to Jon, and Time travel bran generally… which again I’m not inclined to love the idea of in general. I would suggest that come the end of the story there will be no Iron Throne, and rather it will be replaced by a new Weirwood throne, Bran’s sapling.

But, I think it’s far more likely that Jon simply saw Bran in the crypts.

This is actually the bit I’m fairly comfortable about.  That Jon didn’t see Bran as he was in the Winterfell crypts.

The Bran Jon saw in his dream, was comfortable enough to help open Jon’s own consciousness.  The Bran in Winterfell’s crypt was still trying to figure out his own connection to Summer.  

The Bran Jon saw appears as a hybrid Bran/Weirwood.  Bran isn’t wedded to the weirwood until he enters Bloodraven’s cave.  In the Winterfell crypts Bran is only sharing consciousness with his direwolf.

And finally, the bit about the darkness.  The Bran Jon sees in his dream liked the darkness.  The Bran in Winterfell’s crypt did not.

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10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

What I mean is the Bran that appears to Jon in the Ghost dream is the Bran in Bloodraven’s cave.  If Bran is the three eyed crow, I think this is Bran from further in the future.

He appears as a three eyed tree to Jon because he’s speaking to Jon through the weirwood network in Bloodraven’s cave.  My guess is at some point, Bloodraven’s cave and everyone in it is destroyed, Bran’s consciousness lives on, however.  And my guess is just like the COTF seem to have continuing after lives in the Ravens or crows, Bran does the same.

I think this is Bran’s final destiny, his consciousness forever being one with the birds, after his human body is destroyed.

I agree, I think this is Bran no longer tethered to the weirnet.

This is actually the bit I’m fairly comfortable about.  That Jon didn’t see Bran as he was in the Winterfell crypts.

The Bran Jon saw in his dream, was comfortable enough to help open Jon’s own consciousness.  The Bran in Winterfell’s crypt was still trying to figure out his own connection to Summer.  

The Bran Jon saw appears as a hybrid Bran/Weirwood.  Bran isn’t wedded to the weirwood until he enters Bloodraven’s cave.  In the Winterfell crypts Bran is only sharing consciousness with his direwolf.

And finally, the bit about the darkness.  The Bran Jon sees in his dream liked the darkness.  The Bran in Winterfell’s crypt did not.

I really don’t buy it, we literally get an explanation from Bran of this dream in real time:

Bran the boy, Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. 

The Winterfell Weirwood probably has roots extending down into the crypts.

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31 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I really don’t buy it, we literally get an explanation from Bran of this dream in real time:

Bran the boy, Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. 

The Winterfell Weirwood probably has roots extending down into the crypts.

 No evidence of any weirwood roots in the crypts and even if there were the Bran in the crypts had yet to be wedded to any weirwoods.  He had only telepathically linked with his dire wolf.  So why did Bran appear to Jon as a weirwood and not as a wolf?

And why is Bran unsure of whether or not he talked to Jon through Ghost?  How is it that Bran’s subconscious is able to guide Jon’s consciousness, when Bran hasn’t fully figured out his own transfer of consciousness yet?  And why does Bran suddenly like the darkness, when we expressly hear one of Bran’s last thoughts in the crypts is how he dislikes the darkness?  

My guess is if Bran’s consciousness reaches back into time, present tense Bran is receptive to it, even if only vaguely through his subconscious.

ETA:  Or, and this is kind of interesting, the direwolves are tuned in to each other, and future Bran’s telepathic contact with Ghost is picked up by Summer, which in turn makes Winterfell crypt Bran somewhat aware of it.

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8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 No evidence of any weirwood roots in the crypts and even if there were the Bran in the crypts had yet to be wedded to any weirwoods.  He had only telepathically linked with his dire wolf.  So why did Bran appear to Jon as a weirwood and not as a wolf?

I’m only speculating but I think the Weirwood is what let him reach beyond the Wall.

The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones.

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And why is Bran unsure of whether or not he talked to Jon through Ghost?  How is it that Bran’s subconscious is able to guide Jon’s consciousness, when Bran hasn’t fully figured out his own transfer of consciousness yet?  And why does Bran suddenly like the darkness, when we expressly hear one of Bran’s last thoughts in the crypts is how he dislikes the darkness?

Because it wasn’t one of Bran’s “normal” magic dreams.

In the same quote it talks about his third eye being open… as Jon saw in the dream.

Bran also explicitly is scared of the Weirwood, then that changes. I think you are picking up on an interesting detail, but I don’t agree with your conclusions here.

I think Bran should fear the dark.

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My guess is if Bran’s consciousness reaches back into time, present tense Bran is receptive to it, even if only vaguely through his subconscious.

I’m just not seeing evidence of this. I suppose it’s not impossible, but it seems very unlikely to me.

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2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I’m just not seeing evidence of this. I suppose it’s not impossible, but it seems very unlikely to me.

I added an edit, that I think I’m more inclined to believe.  I think the direwolves have a psychic link with each other.  And it was the three eyed weirwood’s contact with Ghost, that Summer picked up on.  And if he picked up on that, it might explain why Bran became aware of it, even if only vaguely.

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On 10/21/2021 at 2:50 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I added an edit, that I think I’m more inclined to believe.  I think the direwolves have a psychic link with each other.  And it was the three eyed weirwood’s contact with Ghost, that Summer picked up on.  And if he picked up on that, it might explain why Bran became aware of it, even if only vaguely.

I like the idea that there is a psychic connection between the direwolves.  It means that the Wall doesn't interfere with that connection and that the Stark kids may be able to connect to each other through their direwolves.

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On 10/23/2021 at 10:36 AM, LynnS said:

I like the idea that there is a psychic connection between the direwolves.  It means that the Wall doesn't interfere with that connection and that the Stark kids may be able to connect to each other through their direwolves.

The more I’ve debated this issue, the more comfortable I’m getting in the idea that it was “Bloodraven cave Bran” that made the psychic connection with Jon via Ghost as opposed to “Winterfell Crypt Bran”.  

I think the reason “Winterfell Crypt Bran” had a hard time deciding whether he actually contacted Jon or he dreamed about contacting Jon, is that he ended up in the position of observing the communication as opposed to actually directly communicating with Ghost/Jon.  

In our dreams we are often the star of the show, but it’s like we’re observing ourselves in the scene as opposed to directly controlling what’s happening.  I think here, Winterfell Crypt Bran ended up being in a position to listen in on his future self contacting Jon through Ghost.  And I think the reason that he was able to listen in on this contact is that the direwolves all have a psychic link with each other.  

So in other words, the Bran that was in the Winterfell crypt, was psychically linked to Summer who was in turn linked to Ghost, who in turn was contacted by future Bran in Bloodraven’s crypt, who was using Ghost to communicate with Jon.

And if you really want to get trippy, the next issue is who’s third eye did future Bran open?  Was it Jon’s or Ghost’s?

As for the Wall, I don’t think that the Wall blocks psychic communication.  I think that Ghost lost his link to Summer because Summer travelled through the Black Gate.  I think that’s what’s blocking their link, not the Wall.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And if you really want to get trippy, the next issue is who’s third eye did future Bran open?  Was it Jon’s or Ghost’s?

I like all this thinking.  Wasn't the small plot device refered to by GRRM, the problem of connecting with your direwolf, if you are separated by the Wall?  Slightly different than the direwolf psychic connection where it doesn't seem to be impeded. 

The question of Jon or Ghost's third eye is also interesting because we could be talking about time and causality effect which Martin has been tinkering with from the very beginning.  For example, how is it that Jon could hear Ghost at all when the pups are found?  He must be hearing it in his mind to hear it since Ghost is mute.  That implies a third eye capability.  So I'm guessing Jon's 3rd eye was opened by Tree-Bran and his mind link to Ghost is a time/causality effect similar to Bran's experience of "touching Ghost and taking to Jon" while at the crypts.  A memory of the future.   Strangely Jon says this occurs in reverse order.  Bran spoke to him and then touched Ghost.

When Bran hears the 3EC is BR's cave, after taking the wiernut drug;  I suspect this is also something that he hears in his mind, now an altered state.  The question is whether the crow will make any more appearances as a guide for Bran and whether BR is gone.  And also whether the 3EC will show up in any other POV's.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I like all this thinking.  Wasn't the small plot device refered to by GRRM, the problem of connecting with your direwolf, if you are separated by the Wall?  Slightly different than the direwolf psychic connection where it doesn't seem to be impeded. 

The question of Jon or Ghost's third eye is also interesting because we could be talking about time and causality effect which Martin has been tinkering with from the very beginning.  For example, how is it that Jon could hear Ghost at all when the pups are found?  He must be hearing it in his mind to hear it since Ghost is mute.  That implies a third eye capability.  So I'm guessing Jon's 3rd eye was opened by Tree-Bran and his mind link to Ghost is a time/causality effect similar to Bran's experience of "touching Ghost and taking to Jon" while at the crypts.  A memory of the future.   Strangely Jon says this occurs in reverse order.  Bran spoke to him and then touched Ghost.

My suspicion is that Ghost may be the alpha in the relationship.  That Ghost may be the one initiating the contact.

I think Ghost psychically called out to Jon when Jon first found him.  And even before the Wall separated them, it appeared that Jon never was able to initiate a psychic link with Ghost.

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“Ghost,” he said quietly, “on the morrow we go over. There’s no steps here, no cage-and-crane, no way for me to get you to the other side. We have to part. Do you understand?”
In the dark, the direwolf’s red eyes looked black. He nuzzled at Jon’s neck, silent as ever, his breath a hot mist. The wildlings called Jon Snow a warg, but if so he was a poor one. He did not know how to put on a wolf skin, the way Orell had with his eagle before he’d died. Once Jon had dreamed that he was Ghost, looking down upon the valley of the Milkwater where Mance Rayder had gathered his people, and that dream had turned out to be true. But he was not dreaming now, and that left him only words.

When they were reunited, Jon was oblivious to Ghost's presence, when their psychic contact was reinitiated.  Once again, I think it was Ghost reaching out to Jon.

Even Bran's contact with Jon appeared to be through Ghost as opposed to Bran contacting Jon directly.  Which is why I wonder, who's third eye was really opened?  

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I am glad someone is doubting Bloodraven to be Three Eyed Crow because he isn't, and yes I can agree with Old Nan being the 3EC instead, but other than that I don't think she is a Targaryen, and I also don't think she was involved with Dunk or a part of Brian's past visions, I tend to think those visions are solely about the past of House Stark, and the people who appeared on those visions should be Starks of old, but that's my belief. 

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My suspicion is that Ghost may be the alpha in the relationship.  That Ghost may be the one initiating the contact.

I don’t know about the alpha, but he was the runt, and literally as well as figuratively the first to open its eyes.

And yes, Jon “hearing” ghost, the notoriously silent wolf, is almost certainly an indication of their connection. Although if this is the same as Bran’s third eye, and his willfully “dreaming” Summer wolf dreams seems still ambiguous. Bran’s third eye seemed to open when he was able to make the connection at will.

I would add that it’s still unclear to me what the Wall does and does not interfere with. I suspect the Weirwoods extend beneath the Wall and that may be what facilitates the connection, because the Wolf connection would seem the one thing we know the Wall disrupts.

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15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

And yes, Jon “hearing” ghost, the notoriously silent wolf, is almost certainly an indication of their connection

If we accept idea about time travel and rebirth there is a possibility that when Jon died he literally was reborn as his own ghost. Or when his soul left his human body that soul became very special baby direwolf. Or their connection is caused by sharing same soul.

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15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I don’t know about the alpha, but he was the runt, and literally as well as figuratively the first to open its eyes.

And yes, Jon “hearing” ghost, the notoriously silent wolf, is almost certainly an indication of their connection. Although if this is the same as Bran’s third eye, and his willfully “dreaming” Summer wolf dreams seems still ambiguous. Bran’s third eye seemed to open when he was able to make the connection at will.

I would add that it’s still unclear to me what the Wall does and does not interfere with. I suspect the Weirwoods extend beneath the Wall and that may be what facilitates the connection, because the Wolf connection would seem the one thing we know the Wall disrupts

When I said “alpha”, I meant that I think Ghost is the one initiating the telepathic contact with Jon.  Kind of the inverse with what’s happening with Bran and Summer.

 I think Ghost is a more powerful telepath than Jon.  We can see evidence of it in Jon’s wolf dream, where Ghost is telepathically reaching out to check on his brothers and sister.  

As for the Wall, I don’t think it blocks telepathic communication.  If it did, I think we would have been given evidence of that in Varamyr’s POV.  I think Ghost lost contact with Summer because Summer passed through the Black Gate.  

Jon losing contact with Ghost is a trickier issue because Jon couldn’t voluntarily initiate the contact on his own.  He admits that even before they become separated by the Wall.  What I think happened is that Ghost doesn’t reach back out to Jon until they become physically reunited.  

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On 10/26/2021 at 10:48 AM, Frey family reunion said:

When I said “alpha”, I meant that I think Ghost is the one initiating the telepathic contact with Jon.  Kind of the inverse with what’s happening with Bran and Summer.

I don't see a reason to think this is the case though... Bran bonds with Summer before he falls, and the other Starks have bonds with their wolves too (Sans Sansa).

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 I think Ghost is a more powerful telepath than Jon.  We can see evidence of it in Jon’s wolf dream, where Ghost is telepathically reaching out to check on his brothers and sister.  

I don't see a reason to think this is the case, I think the pack is connected...

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As for the Wall, I don’t think it blocks telepathic communication.  If it did, I think we would have been given evidence of that in Varamyr’s POV.  I think Ghost lost contact with Summer because Summer passed through the Black Gate.  

I don't know how you explain Jon losing contact with Ghost on the other side of the wall.

I 'm not sure what in Varamyr's chapter would tip us off... I'm not sure an eagle flying over the Wall is the same as a wolf on the other side.

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Jon losing contact with Ghost is a trickier issue because Jon couldn’t voluntarily initiate the contact on his own.  He admits that even before they become separated by the Wall.  What I think happened is that Ghost doesn’t reach back out to Jon until they become physically reunited.  

I don't think this is true.

Ghost was not always with them, but he was never far either. Even when they were apart, Jon sensed his nearness. He was glad for that. 

As opposed to...

Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. 

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