Frey family reunion Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 On 10/29/2021 at 10:21 AM, Mourning Star said: I don't see a reason to think this is the case, I think the pack is connected... I think the reason to believe this, is Jon has never been able to initiate a telepathic contact. We have reason to believe however, that Ghost has. Ghost is telepathically reaching out to his pack mates, when Jon has his wolf dream. Jon's never been able to do anything similar. When Bran slips inside Summer's skin, Bran has a fairly "normal" wolf like experience. Jon's experience when he's connected to Ghost in his dreams is very different. I think the reason for this is that Ghost is the one who's third eye is opened. Ghost is the one who is able to telepathically make contact with his pack mates. Jon is along for the ride. On 10/29/2021 at 10:21 AM, Mourning Star said: I don't know how you explain Jon losing contact with Ghost on the other side of the wall. I 'm not sure what in Varamyr's chapter would tip us off... I'm not sure an eagle flying over the Wall is the same as a wolf on the other side. Presumably this is the first time that Jon and Ghost are actually separated since Jon first nursed him. It's doubtful they ever spent so much time apart. So is it the Wall separating their psychic link or is it their physical separation? It's hard to say because Jon has never been able to voluntarily make a connection with Ghost. When he sent Ghost away, did Ghost break off their link? Jon made trips past to the Wall several times before Ghost's psychic link returns. When he was sent to "negotiate" with Mance Rayder, he went north of the Wall, and there was no indication that he felt Ghost's presence again. It wasn't until Ghost actually physically reunited with Jon, that their bond reformed. And once again, there is no indication that it was Jon that triggered their link. Jon wasn't even aware that Ghost was back. GRRM used Varamyr's chapter and Bran's time with Bloodraven to teach the reader about some of the rules of skinchanging. That would have been the time to clue us in on the Wall's ability to separate wargs from their "mate". After all the wildlings routinely would travel south of the Wall, presumably, this would have included wargs from time to time. On 10/29/2021 at 10:21 AM, Mourning Star said: don't think this is true. Ghost was not always with them, but he was never far either. Even when they were apart, Jon sensed his nearness. He was glad for that. As opposed to... Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. I think the key is the first part of the phrase. Ghost was never far from Jon, even when they were apart. They had never truly been separated until Jon had to climb the Wall with the wildlings. So I don't think Ghost ever broke off their psychic link. Not until they were well and truly separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: I think the reason to believe this, is Jon has never been able to initiate a telepathic contact. We have reason to believe however, that Ghost has. Ghost is telepathically reaching out to his pack mates, when Jon has his wolf dream. Jon's never been able to do anything similar. Why do you think Jon has never initiated contact? I do not follow this leap. More than this, it's not just full on "seeing through the beast's eyes" that is being blocked, but even his sense of Ghost, something he did explicitly have. Quote When Bran slips inside Summer's skin, Bran has a fairly "normal" wolf like experience. Jon's experience when he's connected to Ghost in his dreams is very different. I think the reason for this is that Ghost is the one who's third eye is opened. Ghost is the one who is able to telepathically make contact with his pack mates. Jon is along for the ride. I just don't see this. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I just don't have reason to believe it. I think it is a mistake to use Bran as a benchmark, I think he is the exception not the rule. Of late, he often dreamed of wolves. They are talking to me, brother to brother, he told himself when the direwolves howled. He could almost understand them . . . not quite, not truly, but almost . . . as if they were singing in a language he had once known and somehow forgotten. The Walders might be scared of them, but the Starks had wolf blood. Old Nan told him so. "Though it is stronger in some than in others," she warned. Quote Presumably this is the first time that Jon and Ghost are actually separated since Jon first nursed him. It's doubtful they ever spent so much time apart. So is it the Wall separating their psychic link or is it their physical separation? It's hard to say because Jon has never been able to voluntarily make a connection with Ghost. When he sent Ghost away, did Ghost break off their link? But, compare this experience to Arya. I do not think physical separation, no mater the distance explains the absence of sensing the direwolf. Quote Jon made trips past to the Wall several times before Ghost's psychic link returns. When he was sent to "negotiate" with Mance Rayder, he went north of the Wall, and there was no indication that he felt Ghost's presence again. It wasn't until Ghost actually physically reunited with Jon, that their bond reformed. And once again, there is no indication that it was Jon that triggered their link. Jon wasn't even aware that Ghost was back. I will agree that we don't know where Ghost was at this time, nor do I remember explicit connection between Jon and Ghost when he meets Mance. However, I do not think the physical separation explanation is consistent with what we see from Arya. Quote GRRM used Varamyr's chapter and Bran's time with Bloodraven to teach the reader about some of the rules of skinchanging. That would have been the time to clue us in on the Wall's ability to separate wargs from their "mate". After all the wildling's routinely would travel south of the Wall, presumably, this would have included wargs from time to time. I will admit this is unclear. Do wargs always take their beasts with them? When was the last time a warg crossed the Wall? For a while I remember people speculated that it was the Wall that caused Varamyr's eagle to burn, although I am not partial to this explanation, as he describes using the eagle to spy on Castle Black when Jon goes to treat with Mance. He also says this: "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes." And it's possible that Varamyr, new to having a bird, simply didn't know what the Wall would do. It's also possible someone else was inside of Ghost. Quote I think the key is the first part of the phrase. Ghost was never far from Jon, even when they were apart. They had never truly been separated until Jon had to climb the Wall with the wildlings. So I don't think Ghost ever broke off their psychic link. Not until they were well and truly separated. I don't find this explanation compelling as it does not fit with what we se from Arya and Nymeria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Mourning Star said: Why do you think Jon has never initiated contact? I do not follow this leap. More than this, it's not just full on "seeing through the beast's eyes" that is being blocked, but even his sense of Ghost, something he did explicitly have. Because Jon says he hasn't. Quote “In the dark, the direwolf’s red eyes looked black. He nuzzled at Jon’s neck, silent as ever, his breath a hot mist. The wildlings called Jon Snow a warg, but if so he was a poor one. He did not know how to put on a wolf skin, the way Orell had with his eagle before he’d died. Once Jon had dreamed that he was Ghost, looking down upon the valley of the Milkwater where Mance Rayder had gathered his people, and that dream had turned out to be true. But he was not dreaming now, and that left him only words.” This was when Jon and Ghost were first separated. Jon has never voluntarily skinchanged with Ghost. They've had a psychic bond that developed, but Jon has no control over it. Which is why I think it's perilous to start making parallels with the link between Jon and Ghost and with the links between Bran and Summer, or even Arya and Nymeria. It's very possible that Ghost is to Jon as Bran is to Summer. In other words, it's Ghost that's calling the shots as to when and how they link. 1 hour ago, Mourning Star said: I just don't see this. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I just don't have reason to believe it. I think it is a mistake to use Bran as a benchmark, I think he is the exception not the rule. I agree with this to an extent. Bran is a true skinchanger and greenseer, who can make psychic connections with more than just Summer. He's linked to ravens, crows, even Hodor. He's not reliant on Summer. Jon has never shown an ability to do that. Ghost has shown an ability to make psychic links with creatures other than Jon. Ghost is the one that seems to reach out and contact his brothers and sisters. Which makes me wonder if Bran had opened Ghost's third eye as opposed to Jon's. Arya has shown an ability to make psychic links with creatures other than Nymeria. Jon is certainly a warg, but I'm not sure he's a true skinchanger. I think his psychic connection is to Ghost and Ghost alone. If he's going to make psychic connections with others, then it appears it's going to be through Ghost. 1 hour ago, Mourning Star said: I will agree that we don't know where Ghost was at this time, nor do I remember explicit connection between Jon and Ghost when he meets Mance. However, I do not think the physical separation explanation is consistent with what we see from Arya. I'm not suggesting that there is some set rule, that you have to be x miles apart to maintain a link. What I'm suggesting is that since Ghost is the one in charge, it's a mistake to assume that it was the Wall that was keeping Jon from sensing Ghost. For all we know, Ghost just didn't bother to maintain a connection to Jon while they were apart. And it wasn't until Ghost was reunited with Jon that he reconnected with him. After all, in addition to Jon traveling north of the Wall without reconnecting with Ghost, how about all of the times that Jon stood atop the Wall and looked over? Why couldn't he reconnect with Ghost then? I think that's the mistake in assuming that it was the Wall that was preventing their link. It doesn't take into account that Jon may be reliant on the will of Ghost to maintain their link. 1 hour ago, Mourning Star said: I will admit this is unclear. Do wargs always take their beasts with them? When was the last time a warg crossed the Wall? For a while I remember people speculated that it was the Wall that caused Varamyr's eagle to burn, although I am not partial to this explanation, as he describes using the eagle to spy on Castle Black when Jon goes to treat with Mance. He also says this: "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes." And it's possible that Varamyr, new to having a bird, simply didn't know what the Wall would do. It's also possible someone else was inside of Ghost. I think Orell's a good example. The Wall didn't prevent their psychic link. So do you have to be over the Wall? How about when Jon stood atop the Wall and peered over, yet still couldn't/didn't connect with Ghost? If Orell's eagle and perched atop a crag in the Wall, would Orell have lost contact? If so wouldn't we have at some point been given this info? I think the simpler explanation is that Jon and Ghost had never been apart before, not truly. And Ghost didn't maintain their psychic link while they were apart. 1 hour ago, Mourning Star said: I don't find this explanation compelling as it does not fit with what we se from Arya and Nymeria. If you don't want to compare Bran and Jon, why are you willing to compare Jon and Arya? It's clear that Arya is developing a psychic awareness far superior to anything Jon has shown. And one that is not dependent on the presence of her direwolf. Jon has shown that he is completely reliant on Ghost's presence to have a psychic awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 56 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Because Jon says he hasn't. Maybe I wasn't clear... this can't be what changed when Ghost was on the other side of the Wall if it wasn't the case before, but clearly something changed. Quote This was when Jon and Ghost were first separated. Jon has never voluntarily skinchanged with Ghost. They've had a psychic bond that developed, but Jon has no control over it. Which is why I think it's perilous to start making parallels with the link between Jon and Ghost and with the links between Bran and Summer, or even Arya and Nymeria. It's very possible that Ghost is to Jon as Bran is to Summer. In other words, it's Ghost that's calling the shots as to when and how they link. Is there any other example of this? There are many examples of the man reaching out to the animal, they even have names for it. I don't recall any examples of the reverse. Quote I agree with this to an extent. Bran is a true skinchanger and greenseer, who can make psychic connections with more than just Summer. He's linked to ravens, crows, even Hodor. He's not reliant on Summer. Jon has never shown an ability to do that. Ghost has shown an ability to make psychic links with creatures other than Jon. Ghost is the one that seems to reach out and contact his brothers and sisters. Which makes me wonder if Bran had opened Ghost's third eye as opposed to Jon's. Jon hasn't had a teacher... and we do get an explanation for what you are describing... The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it. Quote Arya has shown an ability to make psychic links with creatures other than Nymeria. Jon is certainly a warg, but I'm not sure he's a true skinchanger. I think his psychic connection is to Ghost and Ghost alone. If he's going to make psychic connections with others, then it appears it's going to be through Ghost. Arya doesn't seem to be hiding from her "gift". Honestly, I just don't think you are correct here. Quote I'm not suggesting that there is some set rule, that you have to be x miles apart to maintain a link. What I'm suggesting is that since Ghost is the one in charge, it's a mistake to assume that it was the Wall that was keeping Jon from sensing Ghost. For all we know, Ghost just didn't bother to maintain a connection to Jon while they were apart. And it wasn't until Ghost was reunited with Jon that he reconnected with him. I still don't see support for your theory here. Do you think Ghost has a coherent plan? I'm just not seeing sup[port or understanding where one would even go with it. Quote After all, in addition to Jon traveling north of the Wall without reconnecting with Ghost, how about all of the times that Jon stood atop the Wall and looked over? Why couldn't he reconnect with Ghost then? I think that's the mistake in assuming that it was the Wall that was preventing their link. It doesn't take into account that Jon may be reliant on the will of Ghost to maintain their link. If it's not the Wall or someone else having taken control of Ghost, it only raises more questions. And again, it might be possible, but I just don't see support for it. Quote I think Orell's a good example. The Wall didn't prevent their psychic link. So do you have to be over the Wall? How about when Jon stood atop the Wall and peered over, yet still couldn't/didn't connect with Ghost? If Orell's eagle and perched atop a crag in the Wall, would Orell have lost contact? If so wouldn't we have at some point been given this info? Did Orell ever fly his eagle over the Wall? Did the Wall ever come between the eagle and the person inhabiting it, besides when it burst into flame? We certainly can't answer your hypotheticals, so we have to work with what we do know. So while it seems like your suggestions could be possible, I don't think they are likely. Quote I think the simpler explanation is that Jon and Ghost had never been apart before, not truly. And Ghost didn't maintain their psychic link while they were apart. Except, as stated above, this is not supported by what we see from other characters. Quote If you don't want to compare Bran and Jon, why are you willing to compare Jon and Arya? It's clear that Arya is developing a psychic awareness far superior to anything Jon has shown. And one that is not dependent on the presence of her direwolf. Jon has shown that he is completely reliant on Ghost's presence to have a psychic awareness. Yes, I think Arya is a better comparison! We do not know Jon is reliant on Ghost, that is just your theory. Jon and Arya both have the wolf blood but are not greeseers. They would seem a much better comparison, but I would understand if you wanted to include Bran in a comparison too. "Then you teach me." Bran still feared the three-eyed crow who haunted his dreams sometimes, pecking endlessly at the skin between his eyes and telling him to fly. "You're a greenseer." "No," said Jojen, "only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world. "The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees. I could not do these things, no more than you could. To me the gods gave the green dreams, and to you . . . you could be more than me, Bran. You are the winged wolf, and there is no saying how far and high you might fly . . . if you had someone to teach you. How can I help you master a gift I do not understand? We remember the First Men in the Neck, and the children of the forest who were their friends . . . but so much is forgotten, and so much we never knew." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: There are many examples of the man reaching out to the animal, they even have names for it. I don't recall any examples of the reverse. I’ll give you two examples of Ghost telepathically reaching out to Jon: Quote “Halfway across the bridge, Jon pulled up suddenly. “What is it, Jon?” their lord father asked. “Can’t you hear it?” Bran could hear the wind in the trees, the clatter of their hooves on the ironwood planks, the whimpering of his hungry pup, but Jon was listening to something else. “There,” Jon said. He swung his horse around and galloped back across the bridge. They watched him dismount where the direwolf lay dead in the snow, watched him kneel. A moment later he was riding back to them, smiling. “He must have crawled away from the others,” Jon said. “Or been driven away,” their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind.” Quote He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger … he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought. It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: I’ll give you two examples of Ghost telepathically reaching out to Jon: I think these are both examples of Jon connecting with Ghost... sure, but how is it different than every time a Direwolf alerts a Stark child to something? We know the connection goes both ways, to the point where skinchangers take on aspects of their beasts, but I'm failing to see why you think this makes Jon different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 30 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: I think these are both examples of Jon connecting with Ghost... sure, but how is it different than every time a Direwolf alerts a Stark child to something? We know the connection goes both ways, to the point where skinchangers take on aspects of their beasts, but I'm failing to see why you think this makes Jon different. In both instances, Jon had no idea Ghost was there. Undoubtably Ghost was the first who knew Jon was there. It was Ghost reaching out to an unsuspecting Jon in both instances. When was the last time either Bran or Arya, suddenly started having wolf impulses? I mean, Bran did his howling thing, but that was the product of an unruly child acting out, rather than a wolf taking over Bran's consciousness. We see an example of Ghost affecting Jon's consciousness as opposed to the other way around. ETA: When Ghost first reaches out to Jon, they didn't have a connection yet, did they? So we can't argue that it was simply the bond between a direwolf and the warg. That had yet to be established. But Jon heard something no one else did. I would suggest that what he heard was Ghost telepathically reaching out to him. Ghost saw Jon, Jon did not see Ghost. Ghost did not want to be left behind. So he called to Jon the only way he could. 45 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: Arya doesn't seem to be hiding from her "gift". Honestly, I just don't think you are correct here. Did I argue that Arya was hiding from her gift? What I argued was that Arya wasn't dependent on Nymeria in displaying her gift. She gains the ability to see through the eyes of a cat for instance. Jon hasn't shown an ability to have a psychic connection with anyone other than Ghost. 45 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: If it's not the Wall or someone else having taken control of Ghost, it only raises more questions. And again, it might be possible, but I just don't see support for it. The simple argument against the Wall blocking Jon and Ghost is that Jon travels on top of the Wall and past the Wall on numerous occasions without his link to Ghost being restored. It isn't until Ghost finds Jon again that their psychic link is reestablished. ETA: thus it was the separation between the two as opposed to the presence of the Wall that seems to be determinative of their psychic link. 45 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: I still don't see support for your theory here. Do you think Ghost has a coherent plan? I'm just not seeing sup[port or understanding where one would even go with it. I don't know if the wolf has a coherent plan or not. I mean he's telepathic but he's still a wolf. That's why I suggest, for all we know, when he and Jon separated Ghost simply dropped the link to Jon. Perhaps out of sight out of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 Just now, Frey family reunion said: In both instances, Jon had no idea Ghost was there. Undoubtably Ghost was the first who knew Jon was there. It was Ghost reaching out to an unsuspecting Jon in both instances. When was the last time either Bran or Arya, suddenly started having wolf impulses? I mean, Bran did his howling thing, but that was the product of an unruly child acting out, rather than a wolf taking over Bran's consciousness. This seems like you are jumping to unsupported conclusions... Jon hearing infant Ghost in the snow despite him being silent is certainly supernatural, but I'm not sure how you jump from that to Ghost initiating the contact. It seems like an example of Jon sensing Ghost. Again in the second case, Jon seems to be feeling Ghost, and I'm not sure why you leap from there to somehow it being evidence of Ghost initiating contact. A few examples: She must have slept, though she never remembered closing her eyes. She dreamed a wolf was howling, and the sound was so terrible that it woke her at once. - "No, I heard it," she insisted. "A wolf." "Arry has wolves in his head," sneered Lommy. "Let them howl," Gerren said, "they're out there, we're in here." Woth agreed. "Never saw no wolf could storm a holdfast." Hot Pie was saying, "I never heard nothing." "It was a wolf," she shouted at them as she yanked on her second boot. "Something's wrong, someone's coming, get up!" - And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said. Just now, Frey family reunion said: We see an example of Ghost affecting Jon's consciousness as opposed to the other way around. It seems the same as with Arya to me. To be honest I do not see evidence the the distinction you seem to be trying to create. Just now, Frey family reunion said: Did I argue that Arya was hiding from her gift? What I argued was that Arya wasn't dependent on Nymeria in displaying her gift. She gains the ability to see through the eyes of a cat for instance. Jon hasn't shown an ability to have a psychic connection with anyone other than Ghost. I have to be honest I don't know what you are arguing. Jon hasn't connected to another animal, yet... again, this is not a convincing argument to me, especially since we just saw Arya do it for the first time and she spent much longer without Nymeria (but still able to sense Nymeria). Just now, Frey family reunion said: The simple argument against the Wall blocking Jon and Ghost is that Jon travels on top of the Wall and past the Wall on numerous occasions without his link to Ghost being restored. It isn't until Ghost finds Jon again that their psychic link is established. I'm open to other explanations, but I do not find yours convincing. Just now, Frey family reunion said: I don't know if the wolf has a coherent plan or not. I mean he's telepathic but he's still a wolf. That's why I suggest, for all we know, when he and Jon separated Ghost simply dropped the link to Jon. Perhaps out of sight out of mind. But Nymeria didn't? I just don't think this line of thinking has a basis in the text, makes much rational sense, nor do I understand where you are going with it... sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: on hearing infant Ghost in the snow despite him being silent is certainly supernatural, but I'm not sure how you jump from that to Ghost initiating the contact. It seems like an example of Jon sensing Ghost. Then why didn't Jon sense Ghost at the beginning? It was only when they were leaving that Jon heard something. Jon couldn't see the white wolf hidden in the snow, but undoubtably Ghost could see Jon. After all we're told that Ghost's eyes were open. (Which seems to be a double meaning from the author). Jon heard Ghost when he did, because Ghost realized they were leaving, and he didn't want to be left behind. So he instinctually called out telepathically. And Jon heard him. Is it a coincidence that COTF who become greenseers are often marked with red eyes? Like Ghost? Is it a coincidence that the author intentionally lets us know that Ghost's eyes were the first to open? So if humans are instinctually born with an ability that once only belong to the Children, why couldn't other animals be born with the same gift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Then why didn't Jon sense Ghost at the beginning? It was only when they were leaving that Jon heard something. Jon couldn't see the white wolf hidden in the snow, but undoubtably Ghost could see Jon. After all we're told that Ghost's eyes were open. (Which seems to be a double meaning from the author). Jon heard Ghost when he did, because Ghost realized they were leaving, and he didn't want to be left behind. So he instinctually called out telepathically. And Jon heard him. Is it a coincidence that COTF who become greenseers are often marked with red eyes? Like Ghost? Is it a coincidence that the author intentionally lets us know that Ghost's eyes were the first to open? So if humans are instinctually born with an ability that once only belong to the Children, why couldn't other animals be born with the same gift? Red is also the color of House Targaryen, of blood and flame. Ghost was not with his dead mother, he was all alone off in the snow. There is a lot we could read into this scene. Some Singers who are gifted have red eyes, some have green eyes, like Jojen. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers. I do think there is symbolism to Ghost's eyes being the first to open, and Jon "hearing" the silent wolf in the snow, but I'm not sure I can reach the same conclusions you do. I would argue there is legitimate reason to believe that the abilities are tied to the blood of the person who has them, and so yes, there is reason to think Singers could have interbred with humans in the past causing this "special" blood, while interbreeding with direwolves seems distinctly less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: I would argue there is legitimate reason to believe that the abilities are tied to the blood of the person who has them, and so yes, there is reason to think Singers could have interbred with humans in the past causing this "special" blood, while interbreeding with direwolves seems distinctly less likely. Why do we have any reason to believe that the Children, which are a completely different species, be able to interbreed with humans? If they could, then sure, maybe they could possibly interbreed with all sorts of other different species, I guess. But I don't think that the telepathic gift is one that can only be gained through genetic manipulation. My guess is if there is a bonding that allows for telepathic contact, the bond comes from the weirwoods, not the Children. And I would suggest that it wasn't just humans and Children who have bonded with the weirwoods in the past: Quote “Bones,” said Bran. “It’s bones.” The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Why do we have any reason to believe that the Children, which are a completely different species, be able to interbreed with humans? If they could, then sure, maybe they could possibly interbreed with all sorts of other different species, I guess. Because we hear a lot about half-human children. In relation to several "elder races", including giants, squishers, and even the Others. I'd even suggest that "blood of the dragon" is directly related to this. It is my belief that all human magic in ASoIaF originates from cross breeding with supernatural creatures, in particular the Singers. I would even go so far as to say this is hinted at by the very first vision in the House of the Undying. Quote But I don't think that the telepathic gift is one that can only be gained through genetic manipulation. My guess is if there is a bonding that allows for telepathic contact, the bond comes from the weirwoods, not the Children. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a mix of required blood and circumstance, nature and nurture. Like how Targaryens care so much about inbreeding and also put a dragon egg in the cradle with children. The connection between the Singers and the Weirwoods is not entirely clear to me yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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