Why did Rickard Karstark just give up?

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 10/7/2021 at 11:25 PM, Canon Claude said:

I figured I’d make a hyperbolic comment about House Stark, in the same vein as the original commenter made about House Hornwood.

Floki’s right. House Hornwood was overthrown by ambush when they were at their most divided and leaderless.

Would have helped if Lady Hornwood had bothered with a proper escort. Given that she knew he was massing man -- said as much at the harvest feast, she didn't trust him, knew Daryn and Halys had died, and everyone expected the Boltons to contest for their land,  traveling with six men at arms was dumb. There are Hornwood men both at the siege of WF and with Ramsay later in the series, so it's not as if they didn't have the men available. Rodrik could have augmented her escort as well, given what he and Luwin talked about with the Bolton situation. Would have given Rodrik time to get in that dance she turned down ....

[frenin]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

The actual context is a little bit more complicated, since Lyanna was 16 when she died. At that age, she was already a woman grown and old enough to marry by Westerosi standards.

But in any case my point was only that, regardless of whether he understood Lyanna's reasons for going with Rhaegar or not, Eddard may have thought that the fact that Lyanna had been unwillingly betrothed to Robert played a part on her decision to flee. And for this reason, he may have decided to wait. It's something that I feel it's in character and fits naturally with the setting.

She died 16 yo, she didn't disappeared for almost two years 16 yo. At any case, the word of a dying, feverished , just reaching adulthood woman is barely  a best case scenario.

Hence my point, that it's pretty unlikely to me Ned got anything useful out of that exchange and that it didn't really influence his decisions other than wanting to keep his family together.

Given that Ned was willing to go against his daughters wishes when it came to the betrothals, even if with Joffy it was for the best, i doubt that

 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I never get the feeling, in Ned's POV, of him having any negative opinion of Rhaegar. Even when Robert explicitly verbalizes his hatred ("in my dreams I kill him every night. A thousand deaths is still less than he deserves"), Eddard doesn't say or think anything. And later on, he is "uncomfortable" at the thought of Robert still hating Rhaegar, which IMO implies that he doesn't (Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion...).

People will make everything out of those words, Ned dislikes the idea of Robert hating the Targs in general, he calls that hatred a madness in him, and he still doesn't really say much about Aerys 2, a man who def deserves his rage and unconditional and eternal hatred, he seems to pity him a little even.

Unless you're a Lannister or Jorah Mormont,  you're off the hook with Neddy.

 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

The actual context is a little bit more complicated, since Lyanna was 16 when she died. At that age, she was already a woman grown and old enough to marry by Westerosi standards.

But in any case my point was only that, regardless of whether he understood Lyanna's reasons for going with Rhaegar or not, Eddard may have thought that the fact that Lyanna had been unwillingly betrothed to Robert played a part on her decision to flee. And for this reason, he may have decided to wait. It's something that I feel it's in character and fits naturally with the setting.

Maybe?? I don't know man, we have no literal idea of their relationship. Ned's mother is not mentioned directly at him tho, Ashara is.

Or of the relationship he may have had with Ashara other than maybe or maybe not they hooked up once or twice.

That's a fair counter argument tho.

 

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I think Eddard is more 'special' that you give him credit for. He clearly educated Arya with a lot of lenience, allowing her to own swords and befriend commoners, and he even procures her a fencing teacher.

 

Neddy is my fav character but i do not see that proggresive thinking of him.

He didn't really know about Mycah and you just had to see Jaeharys's and Alysanne's appalling treatment of their daughters to see that given some "leniency" to one doesn't necessarily have to mean being special, forward thinking or incredibly rigid and unreasonable when it comes to marriage alliances.

 

 

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

And the fact that none of his kids has been betrothed or fostered away seems unusual by Westerosi standards. All the other great families have sent away (for squiring, fostering or marriage) some of their children.

Edmure is a simple counter argument to that and his father is a schemer by nature,  There are, i'm sure, several others highlords that weren't betrothed or fostered away but i'm too lazy to look up.

No one ever made a comment about that in the books tho, so it can't be that unusual.

[The hairy bear]

22 hours ago, frenin said:

Edmure is a simple counter argument to that and his father is a schemer by nature,  There are, i'm sure, several others highlords that weren't betrothed or fostered away but i'm too lazy to look up.

We don't know whether Edmure was fostered away or not. Someone had to knight him. It could be that he never left Riverrun and was trained by Ser Desmond Grell, but is just as possible that he spent some years a squire to, let's say, Lord Mallister or Lord Piper.

But I'm not claiming that every single other highborn has been sent away. I was saying that the Starks are the only Great Family where NO ONE had been sent away, which is particularly noticeable being a larger family than most. 

To go through this in detail, and considering only the ones that we know for sure:

• Tywin Lannister sent Jaime to squire for Lord Crackehall when he was eleven, and offered Cersei for Rhaegar when she was around 7 years old. Before him, Tytos had sent Kevan as page to Roger Reyne and had Genna bethroted at 7.
• Hoster Tully bethroted Catelyn to Brandon Stark when she was 12 years old.
• Jon Arryn intended to send his 7 year old son to foster with Stannis Baratheon.
• Mance Tyrell sent Loras to squire at Storm's End before he was 15, and marries Margaery to Renly when she's 14.
• Steffon Baratheon had sent Robert to the Eyrie "at an early age".
• Also "at an early age", Doran Martell sent Quentyn to Yronwood and wanted to sent Arianne to serve as cupbearer to Tyrosh.
• And of course, among the Stars themselves, Rickard Stark sent Eddard at the Eyrie at 8 and bethroted Lyanna at 14.

So I don't think it's unwarranted to say that Eddard was unusual as far as this aspect goes.

[frenin]

On 10/14/2021 at 6:29 PM, The hairy bear said:

We don't know whether Edmure was fostered away or not. Someone had to knight him. It could be that he never left Riverrun and was trained by Ser Desmond Grell, but is just as possible that he spent some years a squire to, let's say, Lord Mallister or Lord Piper.

But I'm not claiming that every single other highborn has been sent away. I was saying that the Starks are the only Great Family where NO ONE had been sent away, which is particularly noticeable being a larger family than most. 

To go through this in detail, and considering only the ones that we know for sure:

• Tywin Lannister sent Jaime to squire for Lord Crackehall when he was eleven, and offered Cersei for Rhaegar when she was around 7 years old. Before him, Tytos had sent Kevan as page to Roger Reyne and had Genna bethroted at 7.
• Hoster Tully bethroted Catelyn to Brandon Stark when she was 12 years old.
• Jon Arryn intended to send his 7 year old son to foster with Stannis Baratheon.
• Mance Tyrell sent Loras to squire at Storm's End before he was 15, and marries Margaery to Renly when she's 14.
• Steffon Baratheon had sent Robert to the Eyrie "at an early age".
• Also "at an early age", Doran Martell sent Quentyn to Yronwood and wanted to sent Arianne to serve as cupbearer to Tyrosh.
• And of course, among the Stars themselves, Rickard Stark sent Eddard at the Eyrie at 8 and bethroted Lyanna at 14.

So I don't think it's unwarranted to say that Eddard was unusual as far as this aspect goes.

Most of those fosterings and betrothals were done with political thinking behind. Namely, the Tully sisters betrothals and Margs. And the Lannisters.

The fosterings of Robin and Quentyn are also for political reasons.

Edmure so far we can tell spent his childhood chilling in Riverrun with his sisters and Petyr, squiring for someone is not the same as fostering. He's also a grown ass man and totally bachelor. I can also think of Boremund Baratheon who was single at 28.

About the fosterings, it's something that's done but it's neither compulsory nor it stands out when it doesn't happen. Else again, someone would have pointed out the strange situation of the Starklings or Ned's odd ways.