The Expanse #6: better to go down swinging than rolling over

[Larry of the Lawn]

14 hours ago, Ran said:

Check the X-ray and the Bonus Content section. Each episode so far has had a 3-5 minute short featuring groups of characters. This latest one was Amos and Bobbie focused.

Is that just for this season?  Or were they doing that for previous seasons as well?

[Ran]

29 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

Is that just for this season?  Or were they doing that for previous seasons as well?

Extra scenes is a this season thing as I understand it. I haven’t personally checked for previous seasons,  but as I understand it last season Holden’s actor was hosting videos discussing aspects of acting on the show or something like that.

[Spockydog]

On 12/24/2021 at 5:12 PM, Werthead said:

Ty and Daniel have already shot that story down as being pure horseshit the writer pulled out of their arses. So nope.

At this stage, what else are they going to say?

 

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

At this stage, what else are they going to say?

 

No comment, or just ignore it,

[Lady Anna]

6x03 was my favourite episode so far! A good balance of character interactions and some action that moved the story forward. On reddit many people are debating Holden's decision in the battle, but I personally felt it was very in-character for him to make that choice. Interesting that

Spoiler

Naomi was expecting him to actually do it. I was fully expecting her to stop them shooting. Also I don't know what happens in the book, so I wonder if Holden has something else up his sleeve, that led him to spare Marco and Filip. Probably not but.

All in all, this season is feeling a bit rushed but that's understandable. I'm confident that the writers will end this show as best they can, so that it's at least satisfying and a good conclusion to the show. So far they haven't disappointed with the previous seasons.

Though if I had one criticism to make of this show - on a general level - is that, while in the first 3 seasons, they managed to juggle the human/political side of the story with the protomolecule side, I feel that since season 4 they haven't focused that much on the latter. But as I understand it, that's also what happened with the books, so it's okay. I've heard that the protomolecule stuff is picked up again in the last three books, which I can't wait to read! I've only read Leviathan Wakes but I plan on continuing after season 6.

Anyhow, I discovered this show and books this year and it was definitely one the best things I discovered! I love it.

[IheartIheartTesla]

I came into episode 3 thinking they had scaled back on the Belter lingo (it seemed as if Marco and his crew always seemed to speaking Standard English) but just to mess with me they had significant chunks of dialogue in Belter-ese. Anyhoo, the Ceres stuff didnt make sense to me especially in terms of how it was pulled off.

[Kalbear]

Well, the political stuff becomes more of the war side here. In the first couple of books the sol system was in a barely balanced cold war. Having the gates slowed that down slightly - but only for a time. The pressures on belter life got worse with the gates, and the pressures on Mars even moreso.

I get not bring able to see the intrigue any more - we get small flashes of that with Ashford and drummer - but that's because it's a natural conclusion to what happens with a destabilizing event. To me it's a lot like B5's arc - where if you don't have the shadow war it doesn't make sense. 

[Lady Anna]

I saw a little sneak peak teaser video on tumblr and it appears that (spoilers for next episode)

Spoiler

Naomi will confront Holden about his decision, asking why he spared them.

 

[Rippounet]

Watched the first three episodes tonight, and oh wow, what a treat!
Compared to the other shows I've watched lately, The Expanse is truly on a whole other level. I'd have to seriously think to find a serious flaw.

I even have to wonder: are there so few pages of discussion because it's less popular (than, say, Wheel of Time ), or is it because it's so good people don't have much to say about it?

 

On 12/11/2021 at 8:05 AM, Ran said:

Am I wrong about the idea, BTW, that even with its fleet tied up the US could attack Ceres with long-range interplanetary weapons? Surely those must exist, right? My assumption has been that that's what they did against Pallas station.

Not to be an ass, but the typo here makes me smile.

I remember also expecting the Earth to massively retaliate against the Belt after the first asteroid hit. But I think the main reason it doesn't is because that's not the view of human nature promoted by the writers.

I guess in-universe reason is that most long-range interplanetary weapons can be intercepted or countered, so ships are needed if one doesn't want to waste ammo. Destroying Pallas did involve ships, but those were very likely recalled when it became clear the attack wasn't actually over.
In the books, all UNN ships were recalled to defend the home planet. That was the first and only priority. Survival first.
Also, in the books (as in the show), Avasarala refuses to give in to blind vengeance. I found this bit from the books on the internet (in answer to the same kind of question on reddit ^^).

Spoiler

"Marco Inaros can claim to be an admiral in command of a great navy if he wants. I can claim to be the f-Buddha. That doesn't make it true. He's a criminal with a lot of stolen ships and more innocent blood on his hands than anyone in history. He's a monstrous little boy. (....) Now after the fact he's scrambling to say he represents Belters. So what? Any petty thug in his position would want to call it war because it makes him sound serious. (...) They want the Belt to rise up so they can hide behind the good, decent people who live there? Belters aren't thugs, they aren't murderers. They are men and women who love their children same as any of us. This 'Free Navy' will never be able to kill enough people to make Earth forget that shared humanity. (...) Earth has been bloodied, but we will not be debased. Not on my fucking watch." (NG, p.467/8)

As I said, I was also surprised at first. But that was a year ago, and since then, I actually like that this fiction does not depict humans as super-vengeful creatures. I like the fact that the politician in charge is smart and competent, and refuses to treat all Belters as the enemy.
After Earth is hit, many (including Belters) are deeply traumatized and just want to protect it from future attacks at all cost (I vaguely remember something in tbe books about seeing Earth as a mother (?)). And that includes giving up on vengeance in the short-term.

Is it realistic? I honestly dunno (who the fuck could know?). I think both the books and the show address this well enough though. The entire point is that this is an attack so horrible, a crime so unprecedented, that it makes revenge a bit futile in the eyes of many - if not most. The grief is so deep, that it's not that easy to switch to anger. And maybe it is realistic after all.
 

[Ran]

Hah, never noticed the typo. Funny.

That said, I was arguing that attempting to defend Earth seemed to practically require striking at the Free Navy's ability to supply itself, rather than targeting Belter stations for reasons of revenge. 

I can see Avasarala's argument against targeting bases with significant civilian populations, of course, but talking about Earth being bloodied seems like she's very much underselling what has happened. 

[Rippounet]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

That said, I was arguing that attempting to defend Earth seemed to practically require striking at the Free Navy's ability to supply itself, rather than targeting Belter stations for reasons of revenge.

Fair enough. The answer to that, I think, is that it's fairly easy to "throw" a rock at Earth ; presumably, anyone with a ship (even a small one) and a computer can try it. The Free Navy uses drives because they want to control the launches and make it fast, but it's technically possible to do it without them if you want to.
In fact, both the books and show do a very nice job of foreshadowing this precisely by reminding the reader how easy it is on a regular basis (I think it's mentioned about once per book until Nemesis Games?). IIRC there's a character in one of the early books thinking about how exposed he'd feel living "down a gravity well."
Another way to put it: because there's no shortage of rocks, the only way to strike at the Free Navy's ability to supply itself would be to hit its food supply, i.e. Ganymede, which as has been said, amounts to hurting humanity's survival. Water, I think, isn't too hard to find in the solar system.
You could try to make them run out of fuel I guess, but there's no way to be certain they don't have hidden supplies throughout the Belt to carry on the fight long enough to finish Earth.

Short version: it's not that easy, and actually making an enemy of all Belters can make the situation worse.

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

I can see Avasarala's argument against targeting bases with significant civilian populations, of course, but talking about Earth being bloodied seems like she's very much underselling what has happened. 

Yes. But I think the point is precisely to avoid people demanding vengeance above everything else, because Earth's vulnerability to rocks is now all too obvious.

[Corvinus85]

35 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I even have to wonder: are there so few pages of discussion because it's less popular (than, say, Wheel of Time ), or is it because it's so good people don't have much to say about it?
 

Yes. 

Btw, have you watched the X-Ray bonus mini-episodes? Each one is a treat, as well, in its own way.

[Rippounet]

12 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Btw, have you watched the X-Ray bonus mini-episodes? Each one is a treat, as well, in its own way.

Not sure how to find them at the moment tbh (it doesn't seem too easy, and I hate installing apps on my old devices), so I'm being lazy. I assume they'll be easier to access once the season is over.

[Corvinus85]

18 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Not sure how to find them at the moment tbh (it doesn't seem too easy, and I hate installing apps on my old devices), so I'm being lazy. I assume they'll be easier to access once the season is over.

All you have to do is pause an episode when watching and you should see a X-ray thing in a corner. Navigate to it.

[Arakasi]

I’m a bit behind having not watched episode three but we’ve found the first two episodes this year to be mediocre. Imo the series has never approached the heights of its first two seasons. Third was good but haven’t enjoyed it much from four on.

I’d guess the less traffic here is just because less people on a fantasy board are interested in a sci fi series while most everyone has read WoT.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Arakasi

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Arakasi said:

I’d guess the less traffic here is just because less people on a fantasy board are interested in a sci fi series while most everyone has read WoT.

I think your assumption is incorrect. There are lively discussions about the books in the Literature section and the book authors, heavily involved in the show, too, are well known here. Daniel Abraham even has a profile here, but I don't think he's posted in a while. There are also plenty of SF fans on this site.

I don't know why the show hasn't been that popular on this forum.

Thinking about it more, it's not that it's SF, but it's a special brand of SF. I would think fans of BSG, Babylon 5, Stargate and even Star Trek would be into The Expanse.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Corvinus85

[Arakasi]

Sure it’s got a big audience but this is a Martin board. WoT was the dragon Martin slayed (it was the epic fantasy series til Asoiaf came along) so it’s not a surprise that more people are invested.

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Sure it’s got a big audience but this is a Martin board.

Both Ty and Daniel have very strong connections with GRRM personally and the fan community here in general.

[Werthead]

21 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Thinking about it more, it's not that it's SF, but it's a special brand of SF. I would think fans of BSG, Babylon 5, Stargate and even Star Trek would be into The Expanse.

I think it being on Amazon Prime is not helping the situation versus Netflix (though it was on Netflix outside the USA for a year and did bugger all, so there you go).

I think the show's brand of hard-ish SF simply doesn't resonate with people and it's not been well publicised out of genre quarters.

[Rippounet]

A quick google does give me this article saying it's one of the most popular shows in the world, and was (at least for a brief time) more popular than Lucifer or The Crown last year.

I see no reason to doubt Arakasi's reasoning: this is a a board about a fantasy series, so it makes sense that another fantasy series (WoT) would gather more attention.