Why would Aerys demand Robert's head?

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

Anyone else thinks it's weirdly glaring that Aerys would ask Jon Arryn for Robert's head in addition to Ned's? doesn't It feel like that such a demand came out of nowhere. All Robert did was be known to be betrothed to Lyanna, but that shouldn't be enough reason to execute him. And why not demand their surrender alive and then take their heads after the fact? such a demand was asking for rebellion, so why ask it? Aerys was crazy and paranoid, but such a mistake seems just too stupid. if not him, who sent the demand?

[Canon Claude]

25 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Anyone else thinks it's weirdly glaring that Aerys would ask Jon Arryn for Robert's head in addition to Ned's? doesn't It feel like that such a demand came out of nowhere. All Robert did was be known to be betrothed to Lyanna, but that shouldn't be enough reason to execute him. And why not demand their surrender alive and then take their heads after the fact? such a demand was asking for rebellion, so why ask it? Aerys was crazy and paranoid, but such a mistake seems just too stupid. if not him, who sent the demand?

If Lyanna Stark’s brother was threatening to kill Rhaegar over her disappearance, it’s not a big leap of logic to assume that her fiancé is also going to act violently. Especially if her fiancé is Robert Baratheon. Plus, Aerys was insane by this point.

[Egged]

There are probably many lies about what actually happened. Words are wind.

I strongly believe that a conspiracy was started by the maesters, as we have seen glimpses of through supposed actions taken by Walys and his supposed parentage. It makes perfect sense when you look at who Rickard was marrying his children to.

Many claim Rhaegar was planning to overthrow Aerys, but I think it's probably completely wrong; the crowning of Lyanna seemed to be to spite Brandon after he made Lyanna sniffle, which was then topped by Lyanna's kidnapping. Lyanna was near Maidenpool, probably because Rhaegar had succeeded in luring her away from her family's "horrible conspiracy" against the realm, or because she snitched on her family.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Why in seven hells does a madman do anything? 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

If Lyanna Stark’s brother was threatening to kill Rhaegar over her disappearance, it’s not a big leap of logic to assume that her fiancé is also going to act violently. Especially if her fiancé is Robert Baratheon. Plus, Aerys was insane by this point.

to preemptively demand the execution of a great lord seems pretty extreme. he could have asked for arrest or transfer, but instead he chose something so openly hostile. insanity is an easy way to dismiss the implications, but how crazy was he before everything came crumbling down? he was paranoid, spiteful, but was he really that stupid? he at least waited for the Starks to arrive before killing them, and even hid the ways they were executed.

 

41 minutes ago, Egged said:

I strongly believe that a conspiracy was started by the maesters, as we have seen glimpses of through supposed actions taken by Walys and his supposed parentage. It makes perfect sense when you look at who Rickard was marrying his children to.

Many claim Rhaegar was planning to overthrow Aerys, but I think it's probably completely wrong; the crowning of Lyanna seemed to be to spite Brandon after he made Lyanna sniffle, which was then topped by Lyanna's kidnapping. Lyanna was near Maidenpool, probably because Rhaegar had succeeded in luring her away from her family's "horrible conspiracy" against the realm, or because she snitched on her family.

the grand maester conspiracy definitely crossed my mind. Pycelle would have likely signed the letter, but his loyalty to Tywin makes me uncertain. was Tywin more involved than we think à la Red wedding? was pycelle acting on the on the masters orders, and just happened to also be loyal or admire Tywin? more than one thing can be true I suppose.

the idea of Lyanna outing the conspiracy is intriguing, and I don't think if heard it before. in would be interesting to learn that she had more parallels to Sansa (like romantically motivated treachery) that we have not yet seen instead of the more blatant simulates we see to Arya.

17 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Why in seven hells does a madman do anything? 

for a reason that makes sense to the mad person. we must assume there was some form of logic to it, and if not, we should consider who may have been pulling the mad person's stings. maybe someone who is in it for the long con.

[Egged]

10 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

to preemptively demand the execution of a great lord seems pretty extreme. he could have asked for arrest or transfer, but instead he chose something so openly hostile. insanity is an easy way to dismiss the implications, but how crazy was he before everything came crumbling down? he was paranoid, spiteful, but was he really that stupid? he at least waited for the Starks to arrive before killing them, and even hid the ways they were executed.

 

the grand maester conspiracy definitely crossed my mind. Pycelle would have likely signed the letter, but his loyalty to Tywin makes me uncertain. was Tywin more involved than we think à la Red wedding? was pycelle acting on the on the masters orders, and just happened to also be loyal or admire Tywin? more than one thing can be true I suppose.

the idea of Lyanna outing the conspiracy is intriguing, and I don't think if heard it before. in would be interesting to learn that she had more parallels to Sansa (like romantically motivated treachery) that we have not yet seen instead of the more blatant simulates we see to Arya.

for a reason that makes sense to the mad person. we must assume there was some form of logic to it, and if not, we should consider who may have been pulling the mad person's stings. maybe someone who is in it for the long con.

Yep, the Sansa analogy is pretty good.

Lyanna assists to what was likely her first tourney.

Rhaegar signs a “sad song” that made her sniffle, and Brandon mocked her for it, which to me indicates an existing dislike for Rhaegar on his part already.

Rhaegar lays the crown on her lap, pissing off Brandon.

And remember the Pact of Ice and Fire which likely was seen as Targaryens trying to influence the affairs of the north by some.

Lyanna “hating” her family for plotting against good prince Rhaegar and co, after being wooed by him, running off to join him and then becoming an hostage seems fairly likely.

People say Rhaegar stayed out of the war staying in the tower with Lyanna but we don’t know if that’s the case or not, for all we know he was going around. The Wylla scene in the Davos chapter hints at a parallel where Rhaegar may have returned Brandon’s bones while demanding loyalty from White Harbor.

[Canon Claude]

25 minutes ago, Egged said:

 

Rhaegar signs a “sad song” that made her sniffle, and Brandon mocked her for it, which to me indicates an existing dislike for Rhaegar on his part already.

Rhaegar lays the crown on her lap, pissing off Brandon.

 

Wasn’t it Benjen who mocked Lyanna’s tears?

[Egged]

Just now, Canon Claude said:

Wasn’t it Benjen who mocked Lyanna’s tears?

Not clear. It says pup brother, but they are all referred to as wolves, so in a way all the siblings are pups. I always assumed it was Brandon.

[Canon Claude]

3 hours ago, Egged said:

Not clear. It says pup brother, but they are all referred to as wolves, so in a way all the siblings are pups. I always assumed it was Brandon.

The wiki seems quite convinced that Benjen was the one. Besides, I can’t really imagine Lyanna dumping wine over Brandon’s head and getting away with it.

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

to preemptively demand the execution of a great lord seems pretty extreme.

He did thrice with the Starks.

 

5 hours ago, Egged said:

as we have seen glimpses of through supposed actions taken by Walys and his supposed parentage.

We have not seen glimpses tho, we have seen a bitter woman with broken dreams, lashing out.

 

5 hours ago, Egged said:

It makes perfect sense when you look at who Rickard was marrying his children to.

Most of those houses were loyalists till the Targs forced their hand.

 

5 hours ago, Egged said:

Lyanna was near Maidenpool, probably because Rhaegar had succeeded in luring her away from her family's "horrible conspiracy" against the realm, or because she snitched on her family.

I find difficult either. Especially because Lyanna would be willingly putting the rope on her own family.

 

 

5 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

but how crazy was he before everything came crumbling down? he was paranoid, spiteful, but was he really that stupid? he at least waited for the Starks to arrive before killing them, and even hid the ways they were executed.

He was both stupid, seeing as how he acted with the Starks and co and very crazy.

Robert's relationship with the Starks wouldn't be unknown and they weren't about to go to him willingly. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Egged said:

And remember the Pact of Ice and Fire which likely was seen as Targaryens trying to influence the affairs of the north by some.

A Stark Lord demanded said pact...

 

4 hours ago, Egged said:

Yep, the Sansa analogy is pretty good

Sansa didn't know that what she was doing would cost her father his head.

Lyanna doesn't have plausible deniability. She would be directly accusing her family of treason. 

[EggBlue]

For the question regarding Aerys I think there could be a couple of things all happening simultaneously:

A. Aerys probably had some sort of dragon dreams that provoked his ever growing paranoia resulting in his clouded judgment

B. Aerys's actual order might have been something less hostile and pycele changed the wording a bit in favor of GMC. ( yes I think it's possible that he was working for the maesters and meanwhile admired/sometimes worked with Tywin)

C. words are winds and maybe rebels wanted to make that sound harsher due to their anger and frustration towards Aerys's actions( remember at this point honorable Ned has nothing to lose and Robert who I don't think would wanted war only for Lyanna is now too angry ) . this way more lords would join them in their cause(revenge plan) this also can explain Stanis's initial dilemma in joining his brother's cause ( it's true that Stanis wanted to obey the King but even he wouldn't hesitate if the king had asked for his brother's head while he hadn't committed any form of treason)

 

@EggedI like the idea of Lyanna outing her family . I think it's possible that she didn't know what would happen to her brother and father and I doubt Rhaegar would have had them killed either. I always felt like Lyanna must have ran away first , I wasn't sure about the exact purpose ( hooking up with Rhaegar or something else) but this theory seems plausible to me. and I believe she ran into Rhaegar or heard he must be close returning from his summerhall journey and thus she ran to ask his help or something. so nothing was really planned at first. I've always thought abduction and/or eloping plan is unlikely since:

1) even if the prince wanted to have a mistress and even later second wife , he could easily bring her to Dragonstone as a lady in waiting to his wife

and

2) if he wanted to abduct her or run away with her he would have send some one else to bring her so no one suspects him.

 though there is one problem, why didn't Rhaegar take her to Dragonstone or literally anywhere closer than Dorne? can you guys think of something?

 by the way it's obvious that pup wolf was Benjen.  Lyanna would respect her eldest brother and she would only pour wine on someone she is close to as a joke. anyways it feels like some people imagine Brandon to be some monster while that is hardly the case. what we know of him suggests that he was stupid and a playboy but a good person in general and more than that a good brother ( remember stepping up when his brother's too shy) . Lyanna could betray her family in a Sansa manner without Brandon being a jerk to her. Brandon , Ned and Rickard didn't care about Lyanna's feelings and opinions but it doesn't mean they were cruel to her. if you remember in the first book Ned wasn't exactly a good father to Sansa by modern scales too, caring sure but not good. he left her with her imaginations and her drunken septa expecting her to be obedience without questions. so she became close to the evil prince, was abused by the hound and scared by littlefinger. I'm not saying he should have told her everything ,after all he was shielding her in his own way, but he could point out Joffrey's behaviors and listened to her reasoning for not sending Loras Tyrell like in the stories and listened to her dreams. 

[Rondo]

13 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Anyone else thinks it's weirdly glaring that Aerys would ask Jon Arryn for Robert's head in addition to Ned's? doesn't It feel like that such a demand came out of nowhere. All Robert did was be known to be betrothed to Lyanna, but that shouldn't be enough reason to execute him. And why not demand their surrender alive and then take their heads after the fact? such a demand was asking for rebellion, so why ask it? Aerys was crazy and paranoid, but such a mistake seems just too stupid. if not him, who sent the demand?

That idiot, Brandon Stark, stormed his way into the Red Keep and threatened to murder King Aerys Targaryen and his royal family.  King Aerys, with the cooperation of Varys, questioned Brandon Stark in such a way that the fool could not hold back the truth.  Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon were putting together a sinister cabal to force the Targaryens out of power.  At the minimum, those two disloyal men wanted to contest the power of House Targaryen.  It would make sense to have Robert killed.  Robert was part of this plot and deserved whatever consequences was deemed necessary by King Aerys.  Ned was old enough to be a part of this sinister plot.  Aerys had all the rights in the world to have Robert executed.  

It was an effective way to test the loyalty of that old fool, Jon Arryn.  If he was in on the plot, then having him execute the boys that he loves is a way to punish him.  He can always be executed at a later time.  

Where Aerys made the mistake is by killing Rickard and Brandon too soon.  They deserved to die but that could have waited.  He might have pretended at reconciliation and even pretend to make concessions to the northern barbarians.  Lure them into the city and then, after all of the plotters are present, proceed to execute them.  Part of the blame has to go to Rickard Stark for demanding a trial by combat.  The King's court should have found a way to postpone the trial.  Pretend to listen to Rickard while plotting to destroy the Starks and the Baratheons.  

[frenin]

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Robert who I don't think would wanted war only for Lyanna is now too angry

Robert swore to kill Rhaegar because he disappeared with Lyanna. He always loved fighting and loved Ned as a brother.

It doesn't sound like him to stay aloof.

 

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

it's true that Stanis wanted to obey the King but even he wouldn't hesitate if the king had asked for his brother's head while he hadn't committed any form of treason)

What makes you think that?? Stannis told Robert that he shouldn't pardon his lords because they would've handed him to Aerys to be burned.

Stannis didn't join Robert because he thought Aerys's cause unjust and his brother just. He did because Robert was his elder brother.

 

 

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I think it's possible that she didn't know what would happen to her brother and father and I doubt Rhaegar would have had them killed either

I don't know what makes you believe the latter but it's pretty much impossible that Lyanna didn't know that the price of treason was death.

 

 

2 hours ago, Rondo said:

and threatened to murder King Aerys Targaryen and his royal family.

He only talked about Rhaegar. Ah, I read the rest, never mind.

 

 

[Lord Lannister]

15 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Why in seven hells does a madman do anything? 

This. Trying to attribute logic to a madman is a logical fallacy in of itself. 

[EggBlue]

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert swore to kill Rhaegar because he disappeared with Lyanna. He always loved fighting and loved Ned as a brother.

It doesn't sound like him to stay aloof.

 

What makes you think that?? Stannis told Robert that he shouldn't pardon his lords because they would've handed him to Aerys to be burned.

Stannis didn't join Robert because he thought Aerys's cause unjust and his brother just. He did because Robert was his elder brother.

 

I don't know what makes you believe the latter but it's pretty much impossible that Lyanna didn't know that the price of treason was death.

yeah Robert did like fighting but his whole anger was due to how everything happened not because of Lyanna or even his tainted honor. what I meant (and failed to verbalize!) by that is that sure Robert would be hurt but he would swallow his pride because in the first book he doesn't seem to like any big conflict . right? in fact in the story of crowning Lyanna in Harrenhall it's Brandon who gets mad, Robert does care but he just laughs and dismisses it since it's far more convenient.  and if Rhaegar wanted to have Lyanna as mistress/wife he could do so way more smoothly by first inviting her to dragonstone as Elia's lady and then canceling her betrothal to Robert  , he could later calm his cousin down by giving him a position and/or finding him another pretty wife. even with abduction he could compromise with Robert if Brandon and Rickard hadn't die for it.

I might be wrong about Stanis  . I read book 2 & 3  long ago and this is more of a speculation from a short quote. but I think I remember that he once said something about how hard it was to do his duty as a younger brother rather than a loyal subject. this extremely strict man wouldn't think of backing a king who would have heads without reason. 

lastly, there is always the Wall for traitors and seems to me that a pinch of idiocy would do the trick in Lyanna's thinking.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

yeah Robert did like fighting but his whole anger was due to how everything happened not because of Lyanna or even his tainted honor.

It was because of Lyanna.

He says so, countless times.

 

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

that is that sure Robert would be hurt but he would swallow his pride because in the first book he doesn't seem to like any big conflict . right?

It's a common thing that Robert in book one is nothing like he was in his younger days.

 

 

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

and if Rhaegar wanted to have Lyanna as mistress/wife he could do so way more smoothly by first inviting her to dragonstone as Elia's lady and then canceling her betrothal to Robert 

Rhaegar can't do the latter.

The only ones capable of cancelling the betrothals are Robert and Rickard.

Rhaegar taking Lyanna as his mistress is a recipe for disaster. As it happened. 

Robert may ignore the crowning because it was apparently harmless, he did not ignore the latter.

 

 

Quote

he could later calm his cousin down by giving him a position and/or finding him another pretty wife. even with abduction he could compromise with Robert if Brandon and Rickard hadn't die for it.

Except that... Robert didn't want that.

He would never accept it.

 

 

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

this extremely strict man wouldn't think of backing a king who would have heads without reason. 

How so??

Aerys literally did that. Stannis didn't talk about honor or whatever.

 

 

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

lastly, there is always the Wall for traitors and seems to me that a pinch of idiocy would do the trick in Lyanna's thinking.

The Wall is a literal penal colony. Are you really arguing that Lyanna was willing to send his family to the Wall??

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

17 hours ago, Egged said:

Lyanna assists to what was likely her first tourney.

Rhaegar signs a “sad song” that made her sniffle, and Brandon mocked her for it, which to me indicates an existing dislike for Rhaegar on his part already.

Rhaegar lays the crown on her lap, pissing off Brandon.

And remember the Pact of Ice and Fire which likely was seen as Targaryens trying to influence the affairs of the north by some.

Lyanna “hating” her family for plotting against good prince Rhaegar and co, after being wooed by him, running off to join him and then becoming an hostage seems fairly likely.

People say Rhaegar stayed out of the war staying in the tower with Lyanna but we don’t know if that’s the case or not, for all we know he was going around. The Wylla scene in the Davos chapter hints at a parallel where Rhaegar may have returned Brandon’s bones while demanding loyalty from White Harbor.

this is definitely one of the more interesting version of harrenhal and the kidnapping that ive read. the dead are often deified in memory, and. I like the idea that lyanna wasn't just this amazing girl, but had flaws.

 

12 hours ago, frenin said:

He did thrice with the Starks.

 

He was both stupid, seeing as how he acted with the Starks and co and very crazy.

Robert's relationship with the Starks wouldn't be unknown and they weren't about to go to him willingly. 

 

Sansa didn't know that what she was doing would cost her father his head.

Lyanna doesn't have plausible deniability. She would be directly accusing her family of treason. 

to be percise, he gave the two Starks he killed "trials." Brandon was already dead for his threat, and Rickard for choosing trial by combat. Robert seems like a more outlier case. and if he's going to demand Robert for being betrothed to lyanna, why were no demands made against the Tullys in a similar fashion?

perhaps the parallel goes further. lyanna may have wanted the plan broken and for her father to receive mercy. we know what mercy the king had in mind.

6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 though there is one problem, why didn't Rhaegar take her to Dragonstone or literally anywhere closer than Dorne? can you guys think of something?

the rest of your post was interesting, but this caught my eye most of all. we know the tower of joy is just south of summer hall, but is that really a good reason? or perhaps rhaegar felt Lyanna would not be safe if he gave her over to his father regardless and so avoided Targ properties. its not as though the rest of her family was treated well by the mad king. at best she would have needed up a hostage à la sansa, and at worst may have burned.

 

6 hours ago, Rondo said:

That idiot, Brandon Stark, stormed his way into the Red Keep and threatened to murder King Aerys Targaryen and his royal family.  King Aerys, with the cooperation of Varys, questioned Brandon Stark in such a way that the fool could not hold back the truth.  Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon were putting together a sinister cabal to force the Targaryens out of power.  At the minimum, those two disloyal men wanted to contest the power of House Targaryen.  It would make sense to have Robert killed.  Robert was part of this plot and deserved whatever consequences was deemed necessary by King Aerys.  Ned was old enough to be a part of this sinister plot.  Aerys had all the rights in the world to have Robert executed.  

It was an effective way to test the loyalty of that old fool, Jon Arryn.  If he was in on the plot, then having him execute the boys that he loves is a way to punish him.  He can always be executed at a later time.  

Where Aerys made the mistake is by killing Rickard and Brandon too soon.  They deserved to die but that could have waited.  He might have pretended at reconciliation and even pretend to make concessions to the northern barbarians.  Lure them into the city and then, after all of the plotters are present, proceed to execute them.  Part of the blame has to go to Rickard Stark for demanding a trial by combat.  The King's court should have found a way to postpone the trial.  Pretend to listen to Rickard while plotting to destroy the Starks and the Baratheons.  

I don't know, Robert was 19 at the time at most and by no means a schemer. I wish we knew more about who was Roberts regent during his boyhood, or who made the marriage back on behalf of the Baratheons.

If Brandon was put to the question however, who knows what he actually admired to that was also actually true. we could be looking at the blue bard all over again. If Varys was of a mind to ferment dissent, he was in a particularly advantageous position to do so and weaken the realm. ive speculated in the past that he was trying to create conditions for a blackfyre Rebellion to succeed, and such a scenerio proposed may be evidence for.

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

lastly, there is always the Wall for traitors and seems to me that a pinch of idiocy would do the trick in Lyanna's thinking.

believing she may get them sent to the wall is definitely worth considering. it would fit the proposed sansa parallel nicely. what did Tyrion say about Joff, 'not Robert the second but Aerys the third'

 

 

 

One thing im thinking about given the extreme actions and overconfidence of aerys, did he see what was happening regarding rhaegar and the disloyal lords, and purposely start a war? it would be a good way to recognize traitors and diminish their power if the war was successful and the  Targ side, and aerys until pretty late in the war thought he could win the war rather easily. Perhaps the war was intentional for aerys, but it ended up being something more than what he thought he would be up against. 

[Egged]

Lyanna in a tower.

Ashara in a tower.

Lyanna is found bleeding, and we don't know the cause; slit wrists? Suicide?

Quote

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

Ashara is said to have leapt from the Palestone Sword Tower (possibly with her child?)

The Stark daughter in the Bael the bard story also leaps from a tower, which is then followed by us learning that one of her son's lords would go on to kill him and wear his skin.

Quote

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

Quote

"Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood.

They fought for the flesh. Does that mean the flesh could be shared by two if they agreed to it?

"Now it begins."

The repeated tower and skinchanging symbolism is weird.

[Darth Sidious]

Houses Baratheon and Stark were building an alliance of blood in order to challenge Targaryen rule. Robert and the Starks were guilty of treason.  Aerys should have been patient and subtle. I’m sure he could have found a way to rid Westeros of Robert and his dogs if he had waited patiently.  

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

It was because of Lyanna.

He says so, countless times.

he says so countless times after the girl he didn't really know and yet desired had died. if she became Rhaegar's mistress , he would have called her a whore whose nothing like his pal Ned and moved on. especially if Rhaegar convinced the starks to be okay with it since the deed and they could benefit from it and Robert was left alone on this.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Rhaegar can't do the latter.

why not? yes he couldn't order anyone to break the betrothal but he was the crown prince... he could offer the Starks with southern ambition prestige and position.

Robert may have changed in terms of his reaction to important things... or not. we know he has become more cruel and more ignorant. but think about it...was he really that different before? he fathered a bastard at 17, ignored everything at harrenhall, fought a war in the name of his love and yet slept with who-knows-how-many-women meanwhile, got drunk to his new bride's disgust at his wedding... see? he has always been just a drunken lordling whoring and hunting with an easy going personality. he might very well have changed through the years but doesn't seem like as much as Ned imagines. Ned grew up with him and it's understandable that he doesn't see his friend's "flaws" and conclude that he is not the same person at all.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

The Wall is a literal penal colony. Are you really arguing that Lyanna was willing to send his family to the Wall??

yeah ... we don't know much about her personality. we only know she was impulsive (wolf blood) and somewhat just and honorable ( the whole defending Reed incident)...so.... if she thinks her family are committing treason against the realm and the amazing dashing prince she just fell for, Wall (a place with a sacred duty in Northern eyes) would sound like a generous mercy.