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Why was Lady Tanda Stokeworth Running?


CassDarry

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On 10/10/2021 at 3:14 AM, CassDarry said:

Title is the question.

Sansa ran and saw Lady Tanda fleeing from the Red Keep after Joffrey choked/was poisoned at the wedding feast.

By my reading of it, she was old and alone but still running? 

I doubt she was involved....yet seems an odd detail.

If someone dies by poisoning / choking when I'm around, no chance in hell I'm sticking around. If I'd noticed someone choking, I'd go help them. If not, I'd be striding out of that room, two pitchers in hand for a nightcap somewhere quiet and alone. Preferably strongwine or whatever Robert had in his wineskin.

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9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My personal suspicion is that GRRM wanted a momentary filter between Sansa and the reader, despite the fact that it was necessary to give us Sansa’s POV to propel her story towards the next chapter.

So my guess is, Stokeworth became the filter.  My suspicion is that Sansa was more complicit in the poisoning than we’re led to believe, but being the good girl she is, she’s repressed her guilty thoughts, hence this passage:

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Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. “You have a good heart, my lady,” she said to Sansa. “Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf.”

A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down.

 

It's not a coincidence that it is a Stokeworth who crosses Sansa's path at the moment she is finally breaking free from her hostage situation in the Red Keep. There is symbolism attached to House Stokeworth that I haven't entirely sorted out but they seem to play a key role in the "life" of the Red Keep; maybe "stoke" implies that they are keepers of a fire or flame of sorts. We are told that their lands provide the food supply for King's Landing. And they are often associated with the serpentine steps, a key liminal location (boundary or threshold for transformation) within the Red Keep. Lady Tanda wanted Littlefinger to marry her daughter, Lollys; now Sansa is on her way to meet up with Littlefinger. 

Does that make Lady Tanda a gatekeeper of some kind? I find that the Freys have often served as gatekeepers - deciding who can cross the Green Fork into the North; bringing Reek / Theon up out of the dungeon at the Dreadfort; Gatehouse Ami perhaps opening a path for Lancel or Jaime or both to pass into their next life stage. I guess also Fat Walda has opened a gate for House Bolton. (Maybe I need to start a new thread that lists all the transformations and "open doors" facilitated by living and dead Freys.)

But back to Stokeworths as gatekeepers. Remember when Lollys refused to cross the drawbridge to Maegor's Holdfast until Sansa kindly asked her to make the crossing? For some reason, the Stokeworths seem to like Sansa. They cross the drawbridge for her and, in this scene, they let her escape the Red Keep. 

There are other weird little details that may tell us about Lady Tanda's purpose here. When Joffrey sat on the Iron Throne for the first time, Sansa felt as if she had butterflies in her tummy (she had gone to the throne room to ask for mercy for Ned). There was some subtle wording (in that scene? maybe it was earlier?) that implied that Joffrey symbolically impregnated Sansa. So the butterflies may symbolize the spawn of Joffrey. Now we have "hysterical laughter" coming up from Sansa's tummy. Is this a symbolic birth of whatever Joff planted in her belly? The word "hysteria" relates to a woman's uterus. So interesting that she "chokes" the laughter down, just after watching Joffrey choke to death. 

In a long, convoluted post in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Re-Read, I came to the conclusion that butterflies (often? always?) symbolize death in ASOIAF - there's a lot to it, but part of it is Naath where butterflies kill any non-native who stays too long on the island. I'm not sure whether Sansa is being "born into" death in this chapter, or whether her transformation here is her recognition that her missing amethyst was the cause of death for Joffrey. 

The butterfly "birth" continues when she goes into the godswood to change her clothes. She is like a butterfly emerging from a cocoon and spreading her wings.

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Sansa slid her arm from a sleeve, pushed down the gown, and wriggled out of it. She balled it up and shoved it into the bole of an oak, shook out the clothing she had hidden there.

But she takes off her fancy dress and wears the dark, mostly plain clothes that Dontos told her to wear - is she a butterfly turning into a caterpillar? In the past, I've wondered whether she is more of a moth than a butterfly in this scene. (Maybe this symbolism works with the moth in Cersei's lantern as she goes to see Tywin's murder scene.) But it's important to note that she wears a green dress and a brown cloak for her escape. (The colors of Sandor Clegane's personal sigil, fwiw.) 

The gang rape of Lollys during the bread riot is obviously horrible. I think GRRM included it in the story because he wanted to insert a major fertility symbol in association with House Stokeworth. Probably having to do with the House's role as the food supplier for King's Landing. At that moment, there was a food shortage among the small folk (hence the motive for the Bread Riot). Not coincidentally, Lollys is impregnated by "half a hundred" rapists from among the small folk, perhaps representing the sowing that is done by crofters from among the small folk. 

Lollys then marries Bronn, who is a brown character (my term for a series of characters associated with the dirt of the earth). Bronn purports to genuinely care for her and he names her baby after his liege lord, Tyrion - who happens to be Sansa's husband. I think the symbolism is that the harvest cycle continues through the fertility of Lollys Stokeworth, ensuring a future food supply for King's Landing. But House Stokeworth is also "under new management" with the arrival of the rich topsoil represented by Ser Bronn of the Blackwater.

Just to round out the fertility symbolism, do you remember who danced with Sansa at the wedding feast? Ser Garlan Tyrell. He is a green character (like all Tyrells and like Renly, whose green armor Garlan wore at the Blackwater). And Ser Garlan's Fossoway wife is heavily pregnant. I think the point is that both brown and green are integral to the cycle of plant growth and compost necessary to the fertility cycle. 

Cersei misses out on controlling the symbolic baby of Lollys when she declines to allow the baby to be named for Tywin. Cersei also sends sister Falyse Stokeworth to the dungeon to become one of the ingredients for turning Gregor Clegane into Ser Robert Strong. This is a different sort of fertility rite, as Cersei will herself feel like a baby when Robert Strong picks her up and carries her into the Red Keep after her walk of shame. 

Additional details about Sansa's encounter with Tanda:

When Catelyn emerged from Edmure's wedding feast, she became Stoneheart. As Sansa emerges from Jofffrey's wedding feast, Sansa is reassured by Lady Tanda that she has a good heart. There is so much symbolism around hearts - Dany eating a stallion's heart, the fiery heart of R'hllor, the heart in the House of the Undying, etc. A few paragraphs later, Sansa makes this observation about her heart:

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A sudden terror filled her. Her heart hammered against her ribs, and for an instant she held her breath.

This sounds like a blacksmith reference to me. I've wondered whether the pounding on Joffrey (presumably intended to dislodge the thing choking him) is a symbolic hammering by a blacksmith, turning him into a sword. Does Sansa's heart hammering serve the same symbolic purpose, turning her into a sword? If so, what does it mean that Lady Tanda says Sansa's heart is good?

Also, remember the name of Joffrey's sword that Sansa kissed before the Battle of the Blackwater? It was Heart Eater. Does Sansa's kiss for the sword make her a heart eater like Dany? 

Tears seem to represent tears in the sense of tearing fabric. When Bran crosses under the Wall through the Black Gate, a salty tear falls on him. In this scene, Sansa initially can't figure out the reason for her own tears. She wonders whether they are "tears of joy." I suspect this is a Tower of Joy allusion, but I don't know why GRRM would insert this here. Perhaps it's another allusion to the rebirth taking place. 

Lots of little pieces that may fit together. This is a good topic! There should be a lot more discussion of House Stokeworth, imho. 

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14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

How exactly did Patchface get to Braavos? He was picked up as a small child in Volantis as a jester by Steffon Baratheon.

"Patchface" is just a mask, and whoever is under that mask can wear another and to become a little girl, or an old woman, or Jaqen H'ghar, or anyone else whose face-mask he has. 

Though let's stay on topic. My other post here was deleated because I wrote too much of off topic info.

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If someone dies by poisoning / choking when I'm around, no chance in hell I'm sticking around. If I'd noticed someone choking, I'd go help them. If not, I'd be striding out of that room, two pitchers in hand for a nightcap somewhere quiet and alone.

It would be unwise to take food or drink from a place where just now someone died from being poisoned. You don't know where exactly the poison was, so all the food and drink from that place isn't a safe snack option. ^_^

Lady Tanda said to Sansa - "The gods are cruel to take him so young and handsome, at his own wedding feast" - though by that point it was obvious that Joffrey didn't just chocked on a piece of pie. So it weren't the Gods who took Joffrey away on his own wedding feast. It was done by whoever poisoned him. Lady Tanda referred to Joffrey's poisoners as "gods". In my opinion, it's the same "gods" as these: "Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

Landy Tanda thought that Joffrey was poisoned by the Faceless Men, because she knew that they did poisoned the pie that Joffrey ate. There was two poisons - the FM's poison in the pie, and Littlefinger's poison in the wine. Lady Tanda knew that the pie was poisoned, because she took part in that conspiracy of the FM, and that's why she was hastily leaving the crime scene.

That's my opinion, and that's all I wanted to say on this topic, so I'm out of this thread, and thus please - no more questions, and don't comment my comments. Over and out.

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

"Patchface" is just a mask, and whoever is under that mask can wear another and to become a little girl, or an old woman, or Jaqen H'ghar, or anyone else whose face-mask he has. 

Though let's stay on topic. My other post here was deleated because I wrote too much of off topic info.

It would be unwise to take food or drink from a place where just now someone died from being poisoned. You don't know where exactly the poison was, so all the food and drink from that place isn't a safe snack option. ^_^

Lady Tanda said to Sansa - "The gods are cruel to take him so young and handsome, at his own wedding feast" - though by that point it was obvious that Joffrey didn't just chocked on a piece of pie. So it weren't the Gods who took Joffrey away on his own wedding feast. It was done by whoever poisoned him. Lady Tanda referred to Joffrey's poisoners as "gods". In my opinion, it's the same "gods" as these: "Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

Landy Tanda thought that Joffrey was poisoned by the Faceless Men, because she knew that they did poisoned the pie that Joffrey ate. There was two poisons - the FM's poison in the pie, and Littlefinger's poison in the wine. Lady Tanda knew that the pie was poisoned, because she took part in that conspiracy of the FM, and that's why she was hastily leaving the crime scene.

That's my opinion, and that's all I wanted to say on this topic, so I'm out of this thread, and thus please - no more questions, and don't comment my comments. Over and out.

Not really insofar as leaving with the wine. Whether that person was choking or poisoned, unless they were drinking out of the pitcher I took I’d have no fear consuming it. No one else is dying 

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I think Lady Tands is aware that her loyalty to Joffrey could be questioned.

We know Renly counted hers among the swords he offered to defend Eddard as Lord Protecter.

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“My lord, I have thirty men in my personal guard, and other friends beside, knights and lords. Give me an hour, and I can put a hundred swords in your hand.”

(AGoT Ch 47 Eddard VIII)

Petyr Baelish was on team Renly at the time and he told (someone always tells)

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“There is small love lost between Lord Renly and the Lannisters. Bronze Yohn Royce, Ser Balon Swann, Ser Loras, Lady Tanda, the Redwyne twins … each of them has a retinue of knights and sworn swords here at court.”


“Renly has thirty men in his personal guard, the rest even fewer.

(AGoT Ch 47 Eddard VIII)

They add up to over ninety swords though, assuming all the men, their squires and sons are swords too.

Varys has an eye on this little cabal. When Tyrion is newly installed as Joffrey's Hand, he gives him Lord Slynt, and when Tyrion asks him why he is being so helpful, Varys presents a list of 'treasons to discuss'

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Lady Tanda gave a small supper last night. I have the menu and the guest list for your inspection. When the wine was poured, Lord Gyles rose to lift a cup to the king, and Ser Balon Swann was heard to remark, ‘We’ll need three cups for that.’ Many laughed …”

(ACoK Ch 8 Tyrion II)

The list also included the Redwyne twins, who had bribed a guard so they could escape King's Landing on the Moonrunner. (The guard joins Janos heading for Eastwatch on the Summer's Dream). The Redwynes stay with Cersei.

Timmet's treason is killing a wineseller's son.

The master of the White Hart was planning to sail for Dragonstone.

And Varys recommended caging a noisy flock of sparrows that had descended on King's Landing for "spreading fear". Tyrion says that is Varys's job, but won't let him do it.

I don't know if Lady Tanda is aware of how nearly she missed going to the dungeons then. Fortunately for her, Tyrion was not as interested as me in the menu or the guests.

 Cersei never found this list - Ser Balon is currently on the Kingsguard, protecting Myrcella, thanks to her perferring the counsel of Lord Baelish over Varys.

Varys has not taken his eye off Tanda, however. The lady's maid that stole her jewels was his - or was the one his informant suggested could best be sent off without character, more like. 

Shae seems to see a bit of Ser Tallard when she is with Lollys.

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On the morrow I am to be wed …”


“… to Sansa Stark. I know.”


He was speechless for an instant. Even Sansa did not know, not then. “How could you know? Did Varys tell you?”


“Some page was telling Ser Tallad about it when I took Lollys to the sept. He had it from this serving girl who heard Ser Kevan talking to your father.”

(ASoS Ch 32 Tyrion IV)

But the page and the serving girl seem more like little birds to me.

Petyr Baelish was guiding if not steering team Renly when we first meet him. The blank cheque Cersei and Tyrion gave him to buy them Roses. at Bitterbridge was nice but not strictly necessary, for the Tyrells it is about growing strong, which means the marriage contracts - Lord Rowan at the Eyrie, Willas in Winterfell, Margaery Queen. But Baelish seems to have turned his cloak on them when he got Harrenhal.

I don't know why the little birds sing for Tallad, except to make sure Shae knows about Sansa's wedding. Perhaps Varys was giving her the opportunity to leave - but Shae seems more interested in securing a ringside seat at the King's wedding. Perhaps because she knew Sansa wouldn't be around much longer? Also, why would Varys try to help Shae?

I think Lady Tanda's page might be Danos Slynt. That is pure speculation on my part. I don't know if the page talking to Ser Tallad is Lady Tanda's.

Anyway, Tanda's problem has always been the company she keeps. Tanda knows how easily a cup of wine can be poisoned, and how easily the person nearest to it can be blamed, and how thoroughly scrutinised, and how little scruitiny her past would bear if it were her.

So she is out the gates with Sansa, who had been given a head start by Dontos. Gone ahead of many guests that could outrun her, well ahead of the peloton. She is not surprised that Sansa would be getting out too, just that Sansa seemed to be grieving Joffery.

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@Seams

That’s an interesting take, one that had not occurred to me.  I’m a bit ambivalent about considering the Stokeworths as gate keepers.   I’ve always thought of them as being victimized.  And their sigil of the lamb, makes me think of them as sacrifices.  Also, Lollys constant comparison to a cow could also be considered a sacrificial animal.   Falyse sacrificed by Cersei, Lollys’ maidenhead sacrificed to the mob, etc.

But it is interesting about Sansa serving as a guide for a difficult crossing.  We see it play out again when she helps Sweet Robyn make the descent from the Eyrie.  

Recently in Heresy, we’ve been discussing Sansa’s role as the Winter Queen.  I’m not sure how her function as a guide relates to this.  But it’s definitely there.  Makes me think a bit of Hermès’ role as guiding souls to the Underworld.  

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2 hours ago, Walda said:

I don't know if Lady Tanda is aware of how nearly she missed going to the dungeons then. Fortunately for her, Tyrion was not as interested as me in the menu or the guests.

As I was re-reading her interlude with Sansa, it occurred to me that Lady Tanda could have sounded the alarm that Sansa was leaving the scene of the King's death. Or could have later provided testimony or evidence against Sansa and Tyrion. From what I'm seeing at the moment, the Stokeworths are not part of the trial against Tyrion (although I haven't re-read the entire chapter lately) and Tanda subsequently makes excuses for missing both Tywin's memorial service and Tommen's wedding. 

Falyse does attend Tywin's funeral but not Tommen's wedding. She is clearly on Cersei's side in contrast to Lollys, who joins Tyrion's side when she marries Bronn. Of course, Falyse does end up in the dungeon, eventually. So it appears that Lady Tanda and Lollys chose the right course. 

53 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

. . . I’m a bit ambivalent about considering the Stokeworths as gate keepers.   I’ve always thought of them as being victimized.  And their sigil of the lamb, makes me think of them as sacrifices.  Also, Lollys constant comparison to a cow could also be considered a sacrificial animal.   Falyse sacrificed by Cersei, Lollys’ maidenhead sacrificed to the mob, etc.

But it is interesting about Sansa serving as a guide for a difficult crossing.  We see it play out again when she helps Sweet Robyn make the descent from the Eyrie.  

Recently in Heresy, we’ve been discussing Sansa’s role as the Winter Queen.  I’m not sure how her function as a guide relates to this.  But it’s definitely there.  Makes me think a bit of Hermès’ role as guiding souls to the Underworld.  

You raise some important points. 

The lamb sigil puts me in mind of Mirri Maz Duur, who is from the group known as the Lamb Men. She is also gang raped. And she is a sacrifice of sorts, burning on the pyre as part of Dany's dragon-hatching recipe. But she wreaks havoc before she goes, possibly causing the death of Khal Drogo (or, possibly, trying to save him but her healing magic is undermined by Drogo and Dany's failure to follow her instructions). Is Lady Tanda the Red Keep's equivalent of Mirri Maz Duur? 

One clue might be the link I have surmised between Dany's baby, Rhaego (The Stallion that Mounts the World), and Gregor Clegane (The Mountain that Rides). Mirri Maz Duur delivers Dany's baby but it is a monster and (we are led to believe) soon dies. It is not Lady Tanda but Falyse Stokeworth who is one of the instrumental players in "delivering" Ser Robert Strong, the dead / reborn version of Ser Gregor. To add to the childbirth confusion, when Lady Tanda accepts Bronn as a husband for Lollys, Tyrion wonders "whether Cersei had any notion of the sort of serpent she'd given Lady Tanda to suckle": he means that Bronn is snake-like in his devious social ambitions but he makes this point in the context of the wet nurse and newborn baby motif. Interesting that Lady Tanda is associated with the serpentine steps and that here she is suckling a serpent. Then Lollys has a baby named Tyrion - a baby dragon?

I think GRRM's point here is that there are complex, cooperative efforts involved in "birthing" and "nurturing" some babies or reborn figures - as well as dragons. Mirri Maz Duur is part of both killing Drogo and delivering Rhaego; then she is sacrificed for the birth of the dragons. Lady Tanda and House Stokeworth may be part of a similar set of rituals involving the death of Ser Gregor or Prince Oberyn and then the births of baby Tyrion and Robert Strong. Although the "snake" Bronn declined to serve as Tyrion's champion, the Red Viper Prince Oberyn takes on that role. In a slightly novel twist, Prince Oberyn is also fighting, in large part, to avenge the rape and murder of his sister - perhaps Lollys is a symbolic Elia.

A stable boy is killed during the Ser Gregor / Prince Oberyn combat - his arm inadvertently cut off by Prince Oberyn and his head deliberately cut off by Ser Gregor. Later, a stable boy will be blamed when Lady Tanda falls off her horse and breaks her hip, leading to her death. (Stable boys are important symbols. For now, just recall that Dunk initially mistakes Egg for a stable boy in The Hedge Knight. Do stable boys symbolize Targaryens?)

Cersei is also "born" after Tanda's death and after being imprisoned and taking her walk of shame. Like Dany in the pyre, her hair is removed as part of the ritual.

Lollys is compared to a cow, as you point out. The sacrifice symbolism could be the point except I think it is more common to sacrifice a bull than a cow. I think the cow symbolism is more related to the wet nurse and suckling set of symbols, which also ties into the references to nipples on a breast plate and to Khal Drogo's infected wound that leads to his death - he receives a cut on his breast that festers and leaks a milky substance. He later falls from his horse (like Lady Tanda) which signals the end of his leadership ability. There is a big set of symbols around dairy - House Darry, Lord Butterwell, Butterbumps the fool (who lays eggs in his big scene), the Milkwater river, milk brothers and much of the egg symbolism. If she is a symbolic milk cow, maybe Lollys will be part of that. 

You may be right that the Stokeworths are not gatekeepers so much as sacrificial lambs - but, if the lambs don't open a gate, maybe they open up an important path. I'm thinking of Nettles taming Sheepstealer by bringing him sheep to eat. She is able to fly as a dragonseed because of the sheep sacrifices. Drogon steals and eats sheep until he finally eats a shepherd child - perhaps the equivalent of burning Mirri Maz Duur on the pyre in order to hatch the dragon eggs. It would probably be worth a look at scenes where mutton is eaten to see whether symbolic flights occur afterward. (For what it's worth, I have lately been considering whether GRRM intends "sheep" and "peach" as a wordplay pair. It's a bit of a stretch, but it fits with a major part of the action in The Sworn Sword, where the Lannisters try to take a bite out of the Reach, two characters suffer cuts on their cheeks - linked to peaches in GRRM's system of fruit symbolism - and House Osgrey sends a forager (aka a poacher) to steal sheep from House Webber. I'm pondering this for my next post in The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read.) 

I'm not sure I see Sansa as a guide for Sweetrobin on the mountain descent. Mya Stone and, possibly, Miranda Royce may be the guides in that situation. Sansa may be making a descent like Persephone, which might bolster your "Sansa as Winter Queen" discussion. In the Puns and Wordplay thread, there was an early point made about the Isis and Osiris and Horus symbolism around Bran and Sweetrobin (the pun on "Ice" and "Isis" started it, as I recall). Sansa's descent with Sweetrobin could symbolize her descent to the Underworld with Hades. Although Littlefinger tries to get Sansa to eat pomegranate at their breakfast together, but she chooses a pear instead. Jon Snow is later stabbed by a pomegranate. 

I had one bit of wordplay I can't currently access that added to my suspicion that the Stokeworths represent some kind of magic path or passage with a particular tie to dragon hatching. When Sansa escapes the Red Keep with Ser Dontos, she passes through a corridor called the long gallery:

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They continued down the serpentine and across a small sunken courtyard. Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper's light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought. (ASoS, Sansa V)

Ned went through the same long gallery when he followed Petyr Baelish down the secret path outside of the Red Keep to see Catelyn at the brothel (but GRRM called it by a different name in that scene). Keeping in mind that Ser Dontos seems to pick up where Lady Tanda left off in Sansa's escape, here we see the dragons coming to life again, reinforcing that possible Stokeworth role in the birth of dragons. The wordplay I can't access had to do with the phrase "inside a long gallery" and an anagram with the name Lollys. The anagram made sense only if the name Lollys was used, which might explain why GRRM created a character with that name. It could be "Lollys aiding a green," going back to the green and brown symbolism I have been trying to sort out, relating to the fertility cycle of the earth. But there could be a message about a dagger (appropriate to Ned's meeting with Catelyn and Baelish, where they examine the dagger of the catspaw) or an egg. Emerging from a long gallery could be more childbirth symbolism, again reinforcing the fertility symbolism linked to Lollys. Sansa isn't a guide so much as a newborn baby in this scene. 

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

if the lambs don't open a gate, maybe they open up an important path

In the sheep herding trade there is (or rather, was - like WWII vets, I think most if not all are now dead) a type of sheep called a bell-weather.

These were trained as lambs to follow a certain path (typically, to cross bridges).  Then, they had a bell tied around their neck.  When an untrained herd of sheep were driven toward the path/bridge, the bell-weather would cross as they had been trained and the other sheep would follow single file. If there was no bell weather, the other sheep would baulk and ball up on the near side of the river when the path was not wide enough to drive the whole herd through at once.

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

I'm not sure I see Sansa as a guide for Sweetrobin on the mountain descent. Mya Stone and, possibly, Miranda Royce may be the guides in that situation.

Interesting.  She doesn’t end up guiding Lollys across either.  The role she plays in both scenarios is trying to put their fears at ease to help them along in their decision to cross over.

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