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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 19


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This isn’t so much something I just noticed as it is something that I never see brought up. For all the bastards mentioned in this story, all the good kings and leaders are almost always portrayed as faithful and monogamous (or polygamous in Aegon I’s case) husbands, oftentimes swearing off other women even after their wife’s death. Aegon, Jaehaerys, Aemon and Baelon, Viserys II, Daeron II, Baelor and Maekar, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Doran, Stannis (edit: scratch that, forgot about Melisandre), Robb, Tyrion, even Daemon Blackfyre and Quellon Greyjoy (no mentions of salt wives). He’ll, even Drogo isn’t mentioned having any lovers during his marriage to Daenerys. Maybe it’s just because George is a romantic, but he seems to use adultery as a signal that someone is not fit to rule. The only exceptions I can think of are Corlys and Davos (I’m leaving Ned out altogether). When you think about it this way, the fact that Jaime has been faithful to Cersei for thirty years may have been the first thematic sign that he wasn’t intended to be a true villain.

(You could, of course, make the argument that some of these men had mistresses we didn’t know about, but usually there’s some kind of passing mention about whether a character gets around or not. We don’t know who any of Aegon II’s lovers were, for example, but we were told that he had them).

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon Snow's off to no good then, it seems. Well, Jon Snow is an evil name, This is known

Jon broke his NW vows, but he’s only been with Ygritte. 

Granted, I wouldn’t say he was a great LC. He only lasted like six months before completely betraying his post and getting mutinied.

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16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He seriously thinks of being with Val several times. Some of this are after his rejection of Stannis' offer. He even puts a giant guard at her door. He unwittingly stole her several times and being himself, Jon -know nothing- Snow he thinks that Toregg took a liking to Val, though she is his despite him not claiming her and Toregg not stealing her in any way, a thing that is necessary for a wildling woman and Jon himself thinks of him having to do. While the next part would be not directly relevant, we see at the very beginnig that Val's stealing Jon as well, in a sense. Tormund jkoingly says Toregg to stay away, but there's some truth in it because Jon stole Val and Val too stole him back (remember that Jarl is Val's pet) and he's trying to get the point to Jon the fool that Toregg is no competition, Val's for him to take.

 

I don’t think this falls into the monogamy pattern that I was talking about. Ygritte is dead.

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15 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It falls into even after death part and it would be breaking his vows all over again. I don't see any of Jon's actions being against his vows but this. Getting Wildlings behind the wall where it's safe is in NW's best interest, they should've made a distinction and had notorious ones like Lord o' bones and weeper and the like executed in exchange for safe passage for the rest, but well, not everything can work out.

Well, not all of these men stayed single after their wives died, just a few. As for whether Jon breaks his vows again, we shall see.

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This isn’t so much something I just noticed as it is something that I never see brought up. For all the bastards mentioned in this story, all the good kings and leaders are almost always portrayed as faithful and monogamous (or polygamous in Aegon I’s case) husbands, oftentimes swearing off other women even after their wife’s death. Aegon, Jaehaerys, Aemon and Baelon, Viserys II, Daeron II, Baelor and Maekar, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Doran, Stannis, Robb, Tyrion, even Daemon Blackfyre and Quellon Greyjoy (no mentions of salt wives). He’ll, even Drogo isn’t mentioned having any lovers during his marriage to Daenerys. Maybe it’s just because George is a romantic, but he seems to use adultery as a signal that someone is not fit to rule. The only exceptions I can think of are Corlys and Davos (I’m leaving Ned out altogether). When you think about it this way, the fact that Jaime has been faithful to Cersei for thirty years may have been the first thematic sign that he wasn’t intended to be a true villain.

(You could, of course, make the argument that some of these men had mistresses we didn’t know about, but usually there’s some kind of passing mention about whether a character gets around or not. We don’t know who any of Aegon II’s lovers were, for example, but we were told that he had them).

that was really interesting ... George might only be a romantic but I think it makes kinda sense. if you can't manage your lust you probably can't manage a country! 

regarding Jon Snow , I think whether he breaks his vows again won't exclude him from the pattern you found. he'd only be like Jaimie whose monogamy seemed to be intended as one of the earlier signs depicting him in a more positive light.

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8 hours ago, EggBlue said:

that was really interesting ... George might only be a romantic but I think it makes kinda sense. if you can't manage your lust you probably can't manage a country! 

regarding Jon Snow , I think whether he breaks his vows again won't exclude him from the pattern you found. he'd only be like Jaimie whose monogamy seemed to be intended as one of the earlier signs depicting him in a more positive light.

This is one of the reasons why I disagree with the people who say ASOIAF has a cynical approach towards love. Most of the characters in this story are deeply in love with someone else.

I also get the impression that George enjoys talking to shippers. Part of that is probably because of how passionate they are about his work, but I think he also just likes writing romances.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I've never noticed the Garth symbolisms in Goodbrothers. Thanks @Phylum of Alexandria

Thank Crowfood's Daughter (and watch her other videos; they're great)!

The only new thing I bring is that the "Thousand Islands" may be a salad-dressing joke, i.e., an alternative for Russia.

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I was looking at the family trees in TWOIAF and noticed a few things:

A number of Starks were named after their grandfathers (probably setting up for one of the current Stark kids to name their son Eddard).

Brothers Artos and Willam Stark both had sons named Brandon, so that might have been a Big Walder/Little Walder situation there.

There was only one Cregan Stark.

Twins run in all three families (Stark, Lannister, Targaryen).

Almost no Targaryens were named after their grandparents or close relatives. Exceptions include Aenys’ son, Aegon, Aegons II and III (though we know there’s a story behind that), and Viserys II, who was named after his grandfather. Interestingly, Visery II’s niece, Eleana, named her son Viserys. I hope this means that the two were close, especially since Eleana would have been very young when her father Aegon died.

No one is named after their father.

By the looks of it, the women were never named after any close relatives in any of the families.

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8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I was looking at the family trees in TWOIAF and noticed a few things:

A number of Starks were named after their grandfathers (probably setting up for one of the current Stark kids to name their son Eddard).

well.... Sansa will marry a Ned if that means anything! :P 

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Brothers Artos and Willam Stark both had sons named Brandon, so that might have been a Big Walder/Little Walder situation there.

There was only one Cregan Stark.

I thought Cregan might be popular , he sure seemed like a badass... 

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Twins run in all three families (Stark, Lannister, Targaryen).

Almost no Targaryens were named after their grandparents or close relatives. Exceptions include Aenys’ son, Aegon, Aegons II and III (though we know there’s a story behind that), and Viserys II, who was named after his grandfather. Interestingly, Visery II’s niece, Eleana, named her son Viserys. I hope this means that the two were close, especially since Eleana would have been very young when her father Aegon died.

No one is named after their father.

By the looks of it, the women were never named after any close relatives in any of the families.

I've got the feeling that Elaena was a bit of a kissass... I mean ... why wouldn't she support her own nephew?! as doomed as his cause might have been! 

 

there were two Targaryen naming that were particularly interesting to me:

1) Aegon III 's children: first of all his first son is named Daeron . closest paternal relative with the same name was Daeron the daring whom we can be pretty sure was not an inspiration to Aegon! but his father-in-law's name is also Daeron ... it seems to me there is at least one Targaryen king who seemed to care about his wife's opinion when it came to naming their firstborn. also, Baelor might be out of respect to Baela ( the same way she was named after Baelon) and Rhaena is obviously named after Aegon's other sister, Rhaena.

2) Daemon Blackfyre's twins were Aegon and Aemon . Aegon is a pretty standard Targ name but Aemon here is interesting since we are explicitly told that Daemon's dad did little to honor Aemon's memory but it seems Daemon did. Daemon's third son is also named after his father. 

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On 2/1/2022 at 6:01 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe it’s just because George is a romantic, but he seems to use adultery as a signal that someone is not fit to rule. The only exceptions I can think of are Corlys and Davos

Daemon Blackfyre lost in the civil war, and Viserys II ruled as a King for only one year. They were both unfit to rule, so according to your conclusion - those two are supposed to be adulterers, and they are, because they had illegitimate children on the side.

Daemon Blackfyre had a child with princess Daenerys -> Duncan the Tall, and Viserys II had three children with his sister-in-law Queen Daenaera - Daeron I, Daena the Defiant and princess Elaena. Maybe.

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Interestingly, Visery II’s niece, Eleana, named her son Viserys. I hope this means that the two were close, especially since Eleana would have been very young when her father Aegon died.

Elaena's father was Viserys, not Aegon. The real Aegon III died in 135. I'm not making this stuff up. Just read F&B attentively, it is all there -> Larra Rogare, Viserys and Gaemon Palehair poisoned Aegon III and replaced him by shadow-glamouring Gaemon (and sometimes Larra, and sometimes Viserys) into Aegon. So Aegon III's children were actually - two were Gaemon's - Baelor the Blessed and septa Rhaena, and three, inclusing Elaena, were Viserys' children. So Elaena named her son Viserys after her real father - Viserys II.

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

By the looks of it, the women were never named after any close relatives in any of the families.

It seems possible that Alysanne Stark was named after her great-grandmother - Alysanne Blackwood (Old Nan's real name). And Alysanne Tarth (one of Brienne's sisters) was also named after her great-grandmother - Alysanne Stark.

1. Alysanne Blackwood + Cregan Stark = Alys Stark + husband from House Karstark = Alys Karstark + Brandon Stark (Alys' maternal half-uncle);

2. Cregan Stark + Lynara Stark = Brandon + Alys Karstark = Beron + Lorra Royce = Alysanne Stark + Duncan the Tall = twin-children - their son is Hodor's paternal grandfather, and their daughter (maybe) was a maternal grandmother of Meris Cafferen - mother of Brienne and Alysanne Tarth (their other two siblings possibly also were Meris' children, or maybe their mother was Selwyn's first wife, if he had more than one, which is a possibility).

So we have here ->

Alysanne Blackwood - 2 generations between them - Alysanne Stark - 2 generations between them - Alysanne Tarth.

There's also Raya Stark and (possibly) her great-granddaughter Arya Flint (wife of Rodrik Stark).

Mariah Stark (possibly) had a daughter - Melissa Blackwood, Melissa named one of her daughters Mya, and Mya named one of her daughters Melantha. Mya was named after her grandmother who was Mia (Mariah), and Melantha was named after her grandmother Melissa, both of their names could be shortened into Mel.

Those were my assumptions, but these are facts:

1. Berena Stark was named after her father Beron.

2. Branda Stark had two older cousins, both named Brandon - son of her uncle Willam, and that Brandon who was a son of Branda's uncle Artos. And all three of them were named after their paternal great-grandfather - Brandon Stark (father of Beron and a son of Cregan).

Cregan + wife = Brandon + wife = Beron + wife = Willam, Artos, Rodrik and their children - Brandon, Brandon, and Branda.

Edited by Megorova
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11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There was only one Cregan Stark.

I think there may be anagram wordplay in the name Cregan Stark involving the word "stranger".

He might be the embodiment of a Winter King - a northern version of the "Stranger" - unleashed on Westeros during the Dance. 

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3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

well.... Sansa will marry a Ned if that means anything! :P 

Silly EggBlue, Whoresbane’s first name is Hother, not Edric!

 

I forgot Daemon had a son named after him. In my defense, he wasn’t on the family tree. He probably did like and respect the Dragonknight though. Even Daeron II seemed to have liked Daemon when he was younger.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Aegon let Daenaera name all of the kids herself.

Good catch with Baela and Rhaena.

George may have only had one Cregan for the same reason he only had one Rhaegar and Rhaenyra, to make them unique. (Multiple Daeneryses though, curiously).

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Daemon Blackfyre lost in the civil war, and Viserys II ruled as a King for only one year. They were both unfit to rule, so according to your conclusion - those two are supposed to be adulterers, and they are, because they had illegitimate children on the side.

Daemon Blackfyre had a child with princess Daenerys -> Duncan the Tall, and Viserys II had three children with his sister-in-law Queen Daenaera - Daeron I, Daena the Defiant and princess Elaena. Maybe.

Elaena's father was Viserys, not Aegon. The real Aegon III died in 135. I'm not making this stuff up. Just read F&B attentively, it is all there -> Larra Rogare, Viserys and Gaemon Palehair poisoned Aegon III and replaced him by shadow-glamouring Gaemon (and sometimes Larra, and sometimes Viserys) into Aegon. So Aegon III's children were actually - two were Gaemon's - Baelor the Blessed and septa Rhaena, and three, inclusing Elaena, were Viserys' children. So Elaena named her son Viserys after her real father - Viserys II.

It seems possible that Alysanne Stark was named after her great-grandmother - Alysanne Blackwood (Old Nan's real name). And Alysanne Tarth (one of Brienne's sisters) was also named after her great-grandmother - Alysanne Stark.

1. Alysanne Blackwood + Cregan Stark = Alys Stark + husband from House Karstark = Alys Karstark + Brandon Stark (Alys' maternal half-uncle);

2. Cregan Stark + Lynara Stark = Brandon + Alys Karstark = Beron + Lorra Royce = Alysanne Stark + Duncan the Tall = twin-children - their son is Hodor's paternal grandfather, and their daughter (maybe) was a maternal grandmother of Meris Cafferen - mother of Brienne and Alysanne Tarth (their other two siblings possibly also were Meris' children, or maybe their mother was Selwyn's first wife, if he had more than one, which is a possibility).

So we have here ->

Alysanne Blackwood - 2 generations between them - Alysanne Stark - 2 generations between them - Alysanne Tarth.

There's also Raya Stark and (possibly) her great-granddaughter Arya Flint (wife of Rodrik Stark).

Mariah Stark (possibly) had a daughter - Melissa Blackwood, Melissa named one of her daughters Mya, and Mya named one of her daughters Melantha. Mya was named after her grandmother who was Mia (Mariah), and Melantha was named after her grandmother Melissa, both of their names could be shortened into Mel.

Those were my assumptions, but these are facts:

1. Berena Stark was named after her father Beron.

2. Branda Stark had two older cousins, both named Brandon - son of her uncle Willam, and that Brandon who was a son of Branda's uncle Artos. And all three of them were named after their paternal great-grandfather - Brandon Stark (father of Beron and a son of Cregan).

Cregan + wife = Brandon + wife = Beron + wife = Willam, Artos, Rodrik and their children - Brandon, Brandon, and Branda.

The tinfoil is strong in this one. 

Don’t come for my guy Viserys. He spent his entire life cleaning up his idiot relatives’ messes, from the time he was as a teenager. He was more fit to rule than all of them.

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